View Full Version : A significant difference in performance?
Username
03-11-2005, 20:35
I was having a discussion with a buddy of mine and he kept saying how bad the PS3 is going to be(Bad as in good lol).I don't deny it is going to a kicking systems.
The only thing I don't agree on him with is that the graphics of PS3 will be way better than Xbox2.IMHO I don't think there will be a huge difference graphic wise.I see both companies using the most powerful(and cost effective) tools they can.I am sure there will be a slight performance difference, but I don't see a huge gap in performance/graphics this generation or anyone after this one.I think both are going to fight hard in order to win over more fans,But technology only allows a system to be so powerful so both should be fairly similar performance wise IMO.
What do you guys think? Do you think one will have a significant advantage over the other? Remember I am talking about in-game playing visuals/gameplay not spec sheets.
This is also just opinions as we really won't know until they are out obviously,But it'd be nice to see where people stand on this issue.
PS Gamer
03-11-2005, 20:40
There will be some differences in the graphics...not that big but there will be difference, because they are both using 2 different graphics companies....though the real thing is about how to utilze those graphics..and the speed of the graphics...for instance at standing point right now...on what kind of info we have the PS3 is faster then the xenon...though right now the we don't know really anything upon the PS3 graphical engine so we can say atm that the xenon is winning in graphics area.
muchuukuri
03-11-2005, 21:10
Honestly, that's a true grab bag of possiblities... as graphics get better and better it's more difficult for the human eye to distinguish the difference, normal mapping is great example of this. In order for people to make a noticable distinction graphically one of the systems would have to push graphics like say the ones in the UE 3.0 demo while another would have to push something equivalent to CG. That transaltes into a HUGE "power" difference.
Which of the two can do this? I'd argue Sony has the best bet of being the CG one, since the CELL and NVidia GPUs are scalable... do I think it will happen? HECK NO! It'd be too expensive, not to mention it'd prolly melt the system. I think one system WILL be graphically prettier... but next gen the lines are gonna be so blurred that I question if anyone will be able to notice... thats my "real world" guess.
Graphics are a bit to early to guestimate, one devloper said he knows PS# is far superior hardware wise but he thinks the graphics will not be as geat a difference or something to that effect. If one system is noticebl different form the other it would have to be the PS3 over the X-Box2 althogh, I dont see anyone (opens door for Siren) saying X-Box2 wil outperform the PS3 graphically.
You guess is as good as mine at this point, really end graphics has much more to be determined that we and quite honestly very few developers even know at this point.
I just think the PS3 gives more ability to grow better graphics in later generations of software on its system as compared to X-Box2, but again that is only my opion. I know X-Box2 graphics will get better with each generation, but I see developers learning and being able to take advantage of the extras (space & power) the PS3 has to offer will grow grafically alot larger.
venomman
03-11-2005, 22:37
i think its simple the PS3 will have a much easier time handling AI, sound, phsyics and othr non graphical tasks with its SPU's. With that said it can have more power to deliever better graphics
Chaotic_King
03-11-2005, 22:53
I say we should just wait until Sony blows our mind at E3. At the moment, we know very little of what we should expect, and to guess now is just speculation. (Although, it does seem that there is a possibility it could be significant)
PS Gamer
03-11-2005, 23:06
Your are completely right CK...I mean what is the point to debate over something that is just rumored?
My ending note is just wait till E3 in May...We will get the info that we want and actully have something to debate over ;)
Because that is what we do here. We debate rumors, the viability of them, market trends and other facts to support claims, ect...
Username
03-11-2005, 23:23
yeah,I am not posting to start a debate,but rather your gut feeling based on what you do know so far.
I just keep hearing how bad the PS3 will stomp Xbox2 based on specs going around,But I can't help but think MS isn't going to willingly release a system that can't hold it's own against PS3.
I think a lot of it is fanboyism(is that a word? :lol: ) , but still I think it is worth discussing.
Chaotic_King
03-11-2005, 23:32
How can fanboys affect what EGM writes? They were the ones who said that a developer commented on how much better the PS3 was than the Xbox 2. EA said they expected the PS3 to be more powerful than the X2 as well.
I would also agree, the PS3 more than likely will be more powerful than the Xbox2.
But, I question whether you will see that power in games, ever.
Username
03-11-2005, 23:38
I am responding to what other people have discussed with me at work,home,etc.
They are the sony fanboys I am refering too not EGM not sure where you were getting that from...I own all 3 systems,but Xbox gets played the most and gamecube has been in the closet collecting dust for about a year and PS2 is still played every now and then.
I am not denying PS3 will be uber powerful, But I don't think MS is just going to release a push over system either,and I am sure it will have some pretty impressive games out as well.
I really can't see PS3 being that far ahead of Xbox2 is all I am saying, Then again it could, But I know MS wants to win over gamers so I know they are going to release a great system.
I will get all 3 systems this generation like I always do, But I'll get 2 of the 3 way way later(like when ps3forums turns into ps4forums :wink: )
PS Gamer
03-11-2005, 23:40
yeah,I am not posting to start a debate,but rather your gut feeling based on what you do know so far.
I just keep hearing how bad the PS3 will stomp Xbox2 based on specs going around,But I can't help but think MS isn't going to willingly release a system that can't hold it's own against PS3.
I think a lot of it is fanboyism(is that a word? :lol: ) , but still I think it is worth discussing.
I don't think that the PS3 will "kill" the Xenon, In my personal thoughts is that they both have good points. For instance, the PS3 will have the Speed, while the Xenon will have the graphical force.
but Xbox gets played the most and gamecube has been in the closet collecting dust for about a year and PS2 is still played every now and then.
IMO I think the PS2 is played a lot more then the xbox, just because the PS2 has sold 40-50million more consoles then the xbox.
Well load times and non graphical part of games, like physics and sounds will be speeded up and improved, i saw some one else make the same point, so i think graphic wise you will see improvements from both consoles from this Generation, but none will be more graphical than the other (the PS3 might have that edge though in the 2nd to 3rd gen games) as you all stated. but Physics sound and load times will just be improved and speeded up as they have their own APU's (i dont know if they call them SPU's now days) but you will see an improvement for shure from either consoles.
muchuukuri
03-11-2005, 23:40
Yeah, but devlopers get just as excited as people like us... they're human too and they see the two systems and start jumping up and down going OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! ZOMG!!!!!!! ^^ So don't take what devs have said too seriously, besides I doubt any dev have had their hands on final dev kits... rhings can change.
I just keep hearing how bad the PS3 will stomp Xbox2 based on specs going around,But I can't help but think MS isn't going to willingly release a system that can't hold it's own against PS3.
The thing is, XBox was released quite a while after the PS2, and did it really hold its own against it? I guess that's debatable, but something that's not debatable is the fact that PS2 did in fact stomp XBox this time around. Sure, Microsoft isn't willingly going to release something that's inferior, at the same time, they have no choice but to release something that is inferior spec-wise.
PS3 having better graphics? My take is, with GPU <-> CPU interaction, yeah, you're going to see some difference. Kinda like PS2 vs XBox. Only a few games will truly shine on the PS3 (just like how only a few games [2%] on the XBox is actually graphically superior to Triple A titles like Jak 3 and Ratchet & Clank) and vice versa.
How can fanboys affect what EGM writes? They were the ones who said that a developer commented on how much better the PS3 was than the Xbox 2. EA said they expected the PS3 to be more powerful than the X2 as well.
There's that, and there's also a rumoured comparison that states PS3 would be able to push almost twice as much poly as the Xbox 2 (30K vs 50K).
Username
03-11-2005, 23:45
IMO I think the PS2 is played a lot more then the xbox, just because the PS2 has sold 40-50million more consoles then the xbox.
Actually I was refering to inside my household on that :lol:
PS Gamer
03-12-2005, 00:06
Oh, if ya would have said something about that then I would have known what you where talking about :lol:
Epsilon-Zero
03-12-2005, 02:12
Its too close to call at this point. We only know so much about each system and i doubt the devs even know everything. You cant know a system until you really start working with it for a while and Sony devs just got their alpha kits recently and Xenon devs have to wait till summer for final kits.
Specs alone are not everything and i think the PS2 Xbox generation teaches us that.
Chaotic_King
03-12-2005, 02:23
Its too close to call at this point. We only know so much about each system and i doubt the devs even know everything. You cant know a system until you really start working with it for a while and Sony devs just got their alpha kits recently and Xenon devs have to wait till summer for final kits.
Specs alone are not everything and i think the PS2 Xbox generation teaches us that.
No, some Japanese developers have had theirs for a while now. Western devs are now just getting theirs.
Epsilon-Zero
03-12-2005, 02:29
well either way, all devs only have alpha kits at this point.
tank570585
03-12-2005, 03:22
I would also agree, the PS3 more than likely will be more powerful than the Xbox2.
But, I question whether you will see that power in games, ever.
Even if the power was unusable in this generation of systems, the higher you set the bar for this generation the higher the bar for next generation becomes.
Also, the difference doesn't have to be visually huge if people are expecting the more powerful system to look better. They will hear that one is more powerful and has better graphics and will see what they want to see.
If the actual game graphics are similar the more powerful system is still likely to impress buyers as being graphically better, because the company with the more powerful system will be able to create better tech demos (barring incompetence) to get more people excited. On various internet forums we have seen how fast the statement of influencial people can travel and become nearly universally accepted.
However, it is not a given that the company with the more powerful hardware can create a "better" tech demo. Because of this the true winner of the next generation of graphics could be heavily influenced by one awesome tech demo that the other company can't match.
To amke you feel better, if you like current X-Box and havea high Definition TV you will definitley love X-Box2.
dude54321
03-14-2005, 01:34
NO "ME TOO" POSTS, READ THE FORUM RULES
I keep noticing how siren always infers that the PS3 will be very difficult to program for. But the PS3 will use OpenGL as its main development tool (its XNA, if you will), and OpenGL is very easy to use and many developers have used it. Also, nVidia chips run OpenGL better than anybody, so...
CashMoney
03-14-2005, 17:41
I agree Siren... we may not see all that power being used, not ever though... I mean most of the market are shared platform games... you will not see the differences there... but, it's the first party games that will show off the power... for example, Gran Turismo 5 will surely push the graphical envelope in racing games, and games in general i believe... i do believe though that even that won't use up all the consoles power... we'll have to wait for 2nd and 3rd gens of games to start seeing games using up a majority of it's power... I believe that the PS3 will have outstanding staying power/lifetime because of it being overbuilt...
OpenGL is just one part of the puzzle. That only covers most Graphical development. While OpenGL 2.0 standard is close to what D3D 9.0c can achieve, it isn't even on par with it.
What about Sound, AI, physics, Debugging, SMT, remote debugging, allowing artists to use different modeling tools to model and texture for the same game, audio engineers to change the audio that the game is using on the fly while it is running to see how it sounds in game. Also change the environmental effects against the audio on the fly, the same for graphics, tools that monitor all buses, the CPU, and the GPU and can diagnose where you are getting hiccups to help you improve perf, ect...
Development is more than just graphics.
OpenGL is just one part of the puzzle. That only covers most Graphical development. While OpenGL 2.0 standard is close to what D3D 9.0c can achieve, it isn't even on par with it.
What about Sound, AI, physics, Debugging, SMT, remote debugging, allowing artists to use different modeling tools to model and texture for the same game, audio engineers to change the audio that the game is using on the fly while it is running to see how it sounds in game. Also change the environmental effects against the audio on the fly, the same for graphics, tools that monitor all buses, the CPU, and the GPU and can diagnose where you are getting hiccups to help you improve perf, ect...
Development is more than just graphics.
Development is, but this string or question was not more then graphics. To answer his question, using OpenGL and better hardware PS3 will have better graphics, but how much better is still to be determined. I will take some videos at E3 and let ya know :wink:
Also not to mention PS3 does have more support then just OpenGL, the graphics card also supports DirectX 9 & Shader Models 3, which will help graphic display as well.
Just to clarify,
It does not support DX9. It has features similiar to DX9, and nVidia is making some API's to access the Graphics functionality in a way that works like D3D9, but this does not mean that DX9 is supported in any way, shape, or form with the PS3.
Are you sure about that? They announced specifically that it will support DirectX9 in january, you can see that on several sources including this one;
http://www.ps3portal.com/?view=article&article=88&PHPSESSID=d85318dbcb7b78e7672e633b404309bc try
ohhh i see a western figh coming up, better hide behind the bar etc. lol
I think what siren was saying is that They build tools that are so like DX9 that there is still a hair line between DX9 and nVidias tool for graphics. am i right or wrong?
bustabusta196
03-14-2005, 20:10
I would think thats what hes trying to say.. something like they were built with DX9 in mind.. but they arent exactly DX9.
Well they cant make an exact replica because of copyright ect and patents and all that other what not, so they will have to build a way around that.
I understand what he is trying to say, I just don't see where he is getting that from. When nV has already annouced that their PS3 card specifically will support DX9 (as well as others posted above), they did not say it will support DX9 "like"' software, they just said DX9.
aha think abut this, it nV's next gen card, so where else will you find this card other than the PS3? and what will they need for it to run games on the card from 'longhorn' or what ever? DX9, i suspect they were saying DX9 for the PC and not the PS3, because if that happend, MS would go livid about it.
news.teamxbox.com/xbox/4942/MicrosoftATIiniVIDIA-Stories
Nvidia's NV38 has been dubbed as a substandard card by team dx. This means that DX will not include NV in it's developement range for DirectX 10. Team DX made the decision "as a favor to the graphics industry". Team DX claims that NV violated their partnership agreement by changing the DX9 code with their latest set of drivers as caught by Xbit labs recently. This violates the licensing agreement and conpromises DX's quality in order to make it seem as if ATi and NV cards alike display the same image quality. This can only be fixed by reinstalling dx9b. So by all means, Do Not Download Detonator 50 Drivers!!!
This doesn't look good with MS stopping the updates for DX9 I don't think this sounds good. DX9c was the last update. I think that is why nvidia might have to come up with there own drivers for the ps3 that will have to compete with dx10 just like XNA vs Collada and OpenGles.
muchuukuri
03-14-2005, 22:38
X2... the artcile is dated Oct. 6th, 2003 8:05 am
This has no bearing on the current next gen console fight. Nvidia made drivers M$ didn't like, that's all... and these are OLD, anyway.
This doesn't look good with MS stopping the updates for DX9 I don't think this sounds good. DX9c was the last update. I think that is why nvidia might have to come up with there own drivers for the ps3 that will have to compete with dx10 just like XNA vs Collada and OpenGles.
Get your facts straight before posting...
First: DX10 isn't even NEAR completion, I don't see why anyone would bother competing with it.
Second: COLLADA is NOT a rival for XNA. It it simply a universal format. Heck, even devs using XNA could use COLLADA.
Third: Why would stopping updates for DX9 be bad? I'd rather have them work full time on DX10 :roll:. (Alright, this isn't really a fact, but rather an opinion).
Actually, there is no DX10, never was, never will be as far as I know.
DX has evolved into XNA. If you install the DX 9.0c summer or winter updates you will see that it has changed to XNA.
DX was a development environment. XNA is the natural evolution of that.
I've heard that they WERE working on DX10. I guess things changed since then (with the new XNA and all that).
Some refer to what is in XNA as DX10 work. It's all a matter of who you talk to.
Well, it's nort REALLY OpenGL, but some enhanced version. something called OpenGL/ES.
Username
03-15-2005, 18:27
The thing is, XBox was released quite a while after the PS2, and did it really hold its own against it? I guess that's debatable, but something that's not debatable is the fact that PS2 did in fact stomp XBox this time around.
Remember this isn't about sales figures,market share,specs,etc...Just when you play one system and then play the other do expect to see massive differences in performance like loadtime,graphics,audio,etc.
I think Xbox was better than PS2 in that regard,It(ps2) sold more obviously but was it the best feature/performance system? I think xbox has faster loadtimes,pretty much unlimited memory for saved games,better online,smoother graphics(more obvious in certain games)etc.
I think MS had the better system this gen with XBOX regardless of sales figures.
Now my question is will performance be smaller than this gen was or do you think you'll play one system and go "ok cool" and than the other and go "oh man the graphics/gameplay are way more superior to the other one".
I was just wondering what your opinions are since a lot of guys I know are hyped about it and think the difference is going to be huge, while I on the other hand believe it will be marginal even if the PS3 will be using newer technology.
Yeah it's too early to tell, but still just wondering what your take is on this.
muchuukuri
03-15-2005, 22:48
Logistically, I think it will be the same thing as this year with a bit of a role reversal. Sony will have the better graphics like Xbox did, however, we'll see a more balanced distribution of games. In other words, more than 10 Japanese, X2 exculsive xbox games. Though I still think the trends will remain rather similar, Japanese gaming for PS and US gaming for X.
Graphically, next gen systems will be able to make full use of techniques that trick our eyes into thinking that the graphics are smoother, prettier than they really are, normal mapping is a great example of this. So polys and stuff will be pretty much be even. I think, the winner will come from effects and lighting and so on. This and style. Next gen is going to be the new renissance, I'm hoping. Hopefully, gaming companies are finally going to stop caring about realism and head into the realm of stylization, think things like viewtiful joe, because anyone and everyone will probably be able to do almost real life with ease next gen.
Gameplay wise, I think this is ABSOLUTELY subjective and pertinent on game to game basis only. For instance, I like RPGs, and HATE FPSs, yes yes crazy I know. So my taste in gameplay is much much different thatn someone elses. Even from a controller standpoint this carries over. I like the symmetry of the 2 analogs on the PS2, but others love the trigger on the Xbox controller. It's really about taste.
Personally, I think the PS3 will be a clear winner, my wild and random suspicions have me thinking that it'll be able to handle gameplay that looks on par with FF:AC on real time physics and the sort. yes, it's prolly way out there, but that's my inner fanboy thoughts. ^^
I was just wondering what your opinions are since a lot of guys I know are hyped about it and think the difference is going to be huge, while I on the other hand believe it will be marginal even if the PS3 will be using newer technology.
Well, numbers alone, PS3 seems to trump the XBox 2. Of course, we know nothing of the actual real-time performance, so we can't say anything for sure -- yet.
My thoughts are simple: PS3 has more power, and if the DEVS (everything is always the darn devs...) can utilize it (and might I add, it better be much EASIER to utilize), then we have a winner. If not, XBox 2 has a chance, but overall, I don't expect it to win (at least not sales-wise).
Theoretically both systems are going to use graphical "tricks" to make the gameplay look really smooth and high res right?
SO, if the MS "tricks" are really good to begin with, shouldn't they all transfer over to the PS3 eventually, thus making the PS3 suprior by using the same "tricks" and more power?
I know that that is sort of what SONY wanted to happen this time around, and it didn't work (developers sharing ideas about how to get the machine to work well)
But why is it so safe to assume that the same will stand true next time around? If the two systems have a very similar architecture in many ways, wouldn't it be easier for devlopers to just take the same principles from the MS machine, and use them in the SONY? If they do this the result if that SONY ends up benifiting from any advancements made on MS tech.
Just wondering
muchuukuri
03-18-2005, 02:06
Ummm... quick thing, I'm not trying to insult the xbox, by saying it uses tricks to look better... I've heard alot of PS2fans say that its just a trick and not real or whatever. Graphics are all ways of tricking the human eye, so I don't follow that mind set. Assuming that's what you're saying.
On a seperate note, the concepts of normal mapping and such weren't invented by M$, so yeah Sony developers can make full use of the "tricks". After all, you can't own an idea... oh wait yeah you can -_- Stupid lawyers. But no M$ doesn't hold any graphics patents, so Sony can use M$ ideas and M$ can use Sony ideas. Free for all.
My theory is it will prolly come down to POWER next gen, because either system will using "tricks" be able to generate realistic models and so on. However, effects like motion blurr, lighting and so on eat up considerable power and I think since both systems will produce realistic charcter models it will be effects that set the two apart, thus the more powerful will probably take the lead... or something like that.
I also think that there will be graphic differences, but not that major. I think the differences will be more like comparing a dreamcast to a PS2. PS2 clearly had better graphics, but in the beginning it seemed that they were pretty close. Up until 2001, thats when PS2 started getting its kick ass games. So i expect the same for Xbox Next and PS2. In 2006, they will look a little similar, Xbox would've been out for about a year, and then in 2007 i believe that PS3 is going to blow it out of the Water. Thats when your going to get Gran Turismo 5, DMC4, RE5 and MGS4. They will be making good use of the system.
I also think that there will be graphic differences, but not that major. I think the differences will be more like comparing a dreamcast to a PS2. PS2 clearly had better graphics, but in the beginning it seemed that they were pretty close. Up until 2001, thats when PS2 started getting its kick *expletive deleted* games. So i expect the same for Xbox Next and PS2. In 2006, they will look a little similar, Xbox would've been out for about a year, and then in 2007 i believe that PS3 is going to blow it out of the Water. Thats when your going to get Gran Turismo 5, DMC4, RE5 and MGS4. They will be making good use of the system.
I personally expect the graphical difference to be bigger than XBox to PS2. Of course, I have an overly optimistic view, but either way, the difference won't be as minute as Dreamcast to PS2.
one post you say your pesemitic and now your optimistic make your mind up :lol: anyways I don't really know what the diffrence will be I am a wait and see kind of guy
one post you say your pesemitic and now your optimistic make your mind up :lol: anyways I don't really know what the diffrence will be I am a wait and see kind of guy I have an overly optimistic view over PS3's graphics being better than XBox 2's. However, I have a pessimistic view about the next-gen graphics in general. There, are we clear now ;)?
Makaveli_786
04-02-2005, 03:36
At 256 gigaflops the PS3 bears quite a significant advantage over the Xbox Next and according to something I read a few days ago the PS3 will be kicking 512 gigaflops, utilize the aforementioned 256 gigaflops and the differrence should be pretty damn HUGE, 512 and its a phenam, maybe im missing something man but 256 gigaflops to 90 gigaflops is a big difference, also take into consideration how the code will be executed in the PS3 with no line up... its a no brainer!
Hey Justin,
An interview'd be great - could you please send some questions through and
I'll organise for Adam to get them back to you asap along with some artwork.
As yet we don't have any concrete plans to port to console but would
definitely be of interest in the future.
Cheers,
Ashwin
Hey Justin,
An interview'd be great - could you please send some questions through and
I'll organise for Adam to get them back to you asap along with some artwork.
As yet we don't have any concrete plans to port to console but would
definitely be of interest in the future.
Cheers,
Ashwin
So they're not looking to go to PS3? Hmmm. Do you think it's still worth doing?