View Full Version : Do you believe in GOD?
this is a thread to post your opinion
may I remind everyone that religious statements and comments are prohibted in this
thread you can only talk about god and nothign related to any religion.
I beleive in god as how were we created?
NO FLAMING OR ELSE AS THE_ONE POSTED, THERE WILL BE SKILL
POINTS DEDUCTED
I sense some very heated debate, flaming, banning and eventual locking of this thread will come soon. Oh and Yes, I believe in God.
may I remind everyone that religious statements and comments are prohibted in this
thread you can only talk about god and nothign related to any religion.
I don't believe in god, however I don't have a problem with others and their opinions/beliefs. I agree with GamerX, that this topic should be locked.
Religion is usually a heated debate that's not intended for gaming forums.. :P
read my last comment on the posting ettiquette.
Well.. I'll leave it in your more-than-capable hands. :) But don't act too surprised if it gets outta hand.
And awaaaaaaay I go! (to school). :P
Crazy Phat
02-12-2006, 21:48
Yes I believe in God. He protects me everyday.
right. i do not believe in any image of 'god' the world has created. it all comes down to what you mean by god. i mean there are many gods we as humans have 'invented'. if you mean god as the creator of the earth and the universe and all that malarky, then no. i believe in an event that took place under the right conditions at the right time. i dont want to be offensive here but i have been told of things that are written in the bible, and im sorry, but....no. its all science
thats my opinion!
Yes, I believe there is a "higher power" out there somewhere. Without one, nothing makes sense. Scientists say an explosion created the universe. If so, what was there before that? And before that? For an explosion to just randomly occur sounds improbable. Also, if the universe is not infinite as scientists say, than what's outside of it? And don't say nothing, because nothing is something. Also, if the universe is about 14 billion years old as scientists are saying, what came before the universe? Nothing is something, and if nothing was there, another plain of existence was already existing. Nothing makes sense without a creator of some kind creating our universe.
Fallout Boy
02-12-2006, 23:10
I don't believe in god or any god, to me the idea just never did sit well at all. I often wonder about where we came from & why are we here, but im perfectly happy to believe that just like the universe with its infinante size, our creation was a random event & by pure luck, im alive. Im a firm believer in Chaos theory and probability its not all science though, i do have spiritual beliefs, just not in a creator.
This is my view, i respect anyone who chooses to believe in God, we all are allowed to believe what we want to belive im not one of those people who go around bashing other peoples beliefs, different beliefs are good to have though it encourages debate & the on going quest for knowledge.
I may be wrong about my belief's, im not saying they are absolute & as I get older and learn more my belief's will probably change, thats the beauty of being open minded & willing to keep learning.
I believe in God but I don't practice any methods related to Christianity or Catholicism. I'm Buddhist, so I'm open-minded and respects all other religions.
the universe is not infinite and this has been proved. quote Hubbles Law and hubbles constant.
I believe that we were deliberatly created, but I don't believe in the Chrisitan "god".
hoverbike
02-13-2006, 00:11
Yes, I believe in God. He made all the animals and plants and the earth. He made the universe plain and simple.
may I remind everyone that religious statements and comments are prohibted in this
thread you can only talk about god and nothign related to any religion.
Good luck.
OKlondon
02-13-2006, 00:14
Yes, i believe in god.
Can you do that? Start a thread and then forbid people from talking about something?
Who lit the match of the big bang?
it was a chemical reaction and wasnt created by flame
Here are some websites from scientists you should read before you prove your point,
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html
http://www.hoyweb.com/faq/faith3.htm
http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/ontological.php
it was a chemical reaction and wasnt created by flame
Yeah, I literally meant a match. My point is that the matter that makes up the universe couldn't just magically exits.
StrikeMaster Ice
02-13-2006, 01:06
I also believe in god. BTW firefox you missspelled "beleive", just want to let you know.
we are forgetting the most vital aspect of a fact, proof. everyone can have their beliefs but at the end of the day there has to be proof. without proof we cant state anything as a fact.
we are forgetting the most vital aspect of a fact, proof. everyone can have their beliefs but at the end of the day there has to be proof. without proof we cant state anything as a fact.
All of my articles give proof of gods existence.
we are forgetting the most vital aspect of a fact, proof. everyone can have their beliefs but at the end of the day there has to be proof. without proof we cant state anything as a fact.alright, we as humans have a very complex organ system even the eye is a miracle
on it's own, how can out perfect bodies and errorless nervous system be created
by the big bang?
Shrinnan
02-13-2006, 01:41
Yes, I believe in God and that J esus C hrist is my Lord and Saviour.
Fallout Boy
02-13-2006, 02:13
we are forgetting the most vital aspect of a fact, proof. everyone can have their beliefs but at the end of the day there has to be proof. without proof we cant state anything as a fact.
You don't need proof to have faith.
Facts like belief's can also be distored & skewed, instead of religion its called stastics.
Some people like me look for proof that god exists, others are quite happy to just believe on faith alone. No ones to say they arn't right and they should be respected because they have that resolve.
Does anyone else see "photobucket band width exceeded" on ZeroGravity's av?
Shrinnan
02-13-2006, 04:04
Does anyone else see "photobucket band width exceeded" on ZeroGravity's av?
That's my sig and avatar, I wanted to show the world that photobucket's bandwith could most definitely exceed, it is not perfect afterall!
Actually, I'm getting that fixed, I don't know how to do it myself so I'm asking one of the members on the Design Squad/Team/Crew/etc
You don't need proof to have faith.
Facts like belief's can also be distored & skewed, instead of religion its called stastics.
Some people like me look for proof that god exists, others are quite happy to just believe on faith alone. No ones to say they arn't right and they should be respected because they have that resolve.
Well said.
And it's not like there's much proof of the big bang either. For all we know, it might not be God or the big bang that created the universe.
Yes, I believe there is a "higher power" out there somewhere. Without one, nothing makes sense. Scientists say an explosion created the universe. If so, what was there before that? And before that? For an explosion to just randomly occur sounds improbable. Also, if the universe is not infinite as scientists say, than what's outside of it? And don't say nothing, because nothing is something. Also, if the universe is about 14 billion years old as scientists are saying, what came before the universe? Nothing is something, and if nothing was there, another plain of existence was already existing. Nothing makes sense without a creator of some kind creating our universe.
Well, actually the 'Big Bang' didn't 'create' the universe. That's a common misconception. The 'Big Bang' is a cyclic process, as theory dictates, that happens over a very long period of time, in which all particles of matter in the universe are attracted to each other and thus collide together in an immense 'sphere' of heat and gas. That sparks another explosion and hence the matter is projected at tremendous speeds in every direction of the universe.
Just to clarify, the Universe is NOT expanding. However, each particle of matter in the universe is travelling at a very fast speed throughout space because of the 'Big Bang'. Absolutely nothing can exist outside of the universe, or for that matter, any universe.
And also to clarify, matter/energy, for that matter, cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in a chemical reaction. It is practically impossible, as cap_826 suggests, to create something from nothing. Thus it is to be concluded that the Universe has always existed and always will, and only the state of the matter in the universe can/will change at any given time.
But note, this is my opinion, and the collective opinion shared by most scientists and scientific-minded people. I'm not trying to flame anyone, nor belittle them because of their religious beliefs, I am stating my belief. :)
Edit: Albert Einstein once said...: "Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the latter".
Fordgasm
02-13-2006, 07:43
Raised Catholic but not a believer.
I encourage my children to form their own opinions though, I won't influence their decisions in any way.
this is a thread to post your opinion and to argue you're point.
may I remind everyone that religious statements and comments are prohibted in this
thread you can only talk about god and nothign related to any religion.
I beleive in god as how were we created?
I voted No i do not and i will not argue my points as i would be here for hours and hours. but over all i say no not a god but when i say not god that means god as in the sense of what he is made out to be i dont belive he looks anything like us i think it is more of we are god and god is us god is everything and we are everything.. just watch some video's on string theory and multiple universes it make it seem like everything is one.
Coldfire
02-13-2006, 08:09
I have strong opinions about this but unfortunately it is difficult for me to express those opinions on a keyboard. So yes I believe in God, but my relationship with God is a personal one and not a Religious group one.
Mael Duin
02-13-2006, 08:09
I don't believe in god or any god, to me the idea just never did sit well at all. I often wonder about where we came from & why are we here, but im perfectly happy to believe that just like the universe with its infinante size, our creation was a random event & by pure luck, im alive. Im a firm believer in Chaos theory and probability its not all science though, i do have spiritual beliefs, just not in a creator.
I have same view. I do not believe in any higher powers or spirits. We are just pack of meat and blood, granted with brains better than any other lifeform. Universe has always been and always will be. Big Bang, universe is created. In the end of time, universe crashes. There comes new Big Bang. Never ending cycle of death and rebirth.
Do I believe in a god? Yes
Do I believe in christianity? No.
Dead_EyeRO720
02-13-2006, 21:49
I know there is some higher force at work. Is it a big guy with a beard and a robe? Nah, that image was stolen from Zeus/Jupiter back when the church was converting people from worship of the Olympian gods. Is there something there? Yes. Is it what we imagine it to be? Who knows?
Tangible proof? Can't help you there. That's part of what faith is. However, I sense a hand at work shaping what happens to me and to others, and it goes beyond our five senses. Some things have happened to me that are just too significant to be coincidence.
hoverbike
02-13-2006, 21:53
I see that alot of people are putting that they believe in God but not christianity. Too me, that doesn't make sense to just believe in something without answers.
Just to clarify, the Universe is NOT expanding. However, each particle of matter in the universe is travelling at a very fast speed throughout space because of the 'Big Bang'.
Not sure on that one, alot of Sciencist say other-wise. I'm not sure if it's true or not.
*2400th Post :!: *
MiThRaZoR
02-13-2006, 22:00
There is no way the Universe could expand just to let you know. The Universe is just dark space. Which means, either it's already there or it isn't. The Universe might also be like Snake II. :?
Read the life of pi then you can talk about god, that book made some atheists believe
in god...and it made me beleive that we all pray to the same god it's just that we have
different interpretations
I see that alot of people are putting that they believe in God but not christianity. Too me, that doesn't make sense to just believe in something without answers.
That's why so many different religions exist in our world, many different people looking for answers. But this topic isn't meant to get into a religous debate, so I'll stop there.
*2400th Post :!: *
Congratulations. :wink:
hoverbike
02-13-2006, 22:28
*2400th Post :!: *
Congratulations. :wink:
Thanks! (to make this post have at least 5 words in it)
No I don't believe in God, or any god of any religion. Noting that a lot of people want to promote God into some sort of universal supreme being that isn't the original Christian god is not the same thing, which I am agnostic to.
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 01:18
i have a question for you non believers, why would you not want to believe in the god?
why would you rather just die and that be it, rather then believe that you would go to a perfect place when you die?
if you didnt figure it out already, i believe in god :D
Crazy Phat
02-14-2006, 02:10
We won't find the meaning of life or why we are here until we die. Until then, I forever believe in God.
Capo Digi
02-14-2006, 03:06
Frankly I'm astounded by the poll results so far. :shock:
My only explanation is that people who believe in god tend to want to express that fact, even if it's just voting in a poll.
The people who don't, generally won't even bother reading this poll.
I don't believe in god of course, the whole concept is comical to people like me, I'm sorry but that's me.
I frequent a science and technology forum or two and whenever the subject of god crops up. it's just locked as trivial nonsense, even the new tactic of "intelligent design" is hacked apart within a matter of posts.
It's an undebatable subject to non-believers, they like to believe in things that have empirical evidence to back them up, not wishful thinking and what if's.
Sure it's nice to think there's a bigger picture, or when we are mourning that our family or friends have gone to a better place.
Nice is all it is, comforting, but delusional unfortunately, in my view.
There is, and will always be, nothing but handed down stories reprinted a dozen times from thousands of years ago to support god. That's a lot to ask for my "faith".
Hope I didn't offend, it's just my point of view.
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 03:08
hey capo digi, why dont you try to answer my question?
why would you rather just die and that be it, rather then believe that you would go to a perfect place when you die?
I am simply going to say that some things are not meant to be understood. How could our universe be created, what existed before the universe? If there was nothing, that means there was something there, as nothing is something. Emptiness occupies space, and for there to be absolutely nothing means that space had already existed. Science and religion both mean absolutely nothing when attempting to simply comprehend the bigger picture. How could the universe have not existed? How could it have existed forever? Some things are simply not meant to be understood. There could be a higher power behind it all. There may not be. I am not going to argue it. I am simply going to wait and see. This is how I feel.
Capo Digi
02-14-2006, 03:19
hey capo digi, why dont you try to answer my question?
why would you rather just die and that be it, rather then believe that you would go to a perfect place when you die?
I thought I had more or less.
I would rather die and go to never never land of course. but that's not going to make me believe it's going to happen, just because a load of other people believe it's going to happen, it doesn't mean it will.
It just makes people feel better, yes that's a good thing in some ways but it doesn't make god any more real, unless god is the happiness that people feel when they are deluded of course, otherwise known as faith.
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 03:24
hey capo digi, why dont you try to answer my question?
why would you rather just die and that be it, rather then believe that you would go to a perfect place when you die?
I thought I had more or less.
I would rather die and go to never never land of course. but that's not going to make me believe it's going to happen, just because a load of other people believe it's going to happen, it doesn't mean it will.
It just makes people feel better, yes that's a good thing in some ways but it doesn't make god any more real, unless god is the happiness that people feel when they are deluded of course, otherwise known as faith.
i dont think you get what im saying, why believe in nothing then something. based on your beliefs, when you die thats it, you said for yourself you would like to go to a place like heaven, so why dont you believe in god.
you dont believe in anything right now, so what would happen if you started to believe in god? you wouldnt be hurt or killed, so why not try it
Coldfire
02-14-2006, 03:27
I wold like too just add that the entire idea of perfection is flawed. human perfection that is. Perfection cannot last becuase once something is perfect it does not change for it is perfect. Perfection is boring.One of my obvious favorite stories Fight Club adresses this when Tyler says something like "Perfection can only last for a moment and that`s all you can ever expect from it". I believe where we are now is paradise and the best thing that can happen after death would be coming back.
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 03:32
I wold like too just add that the entire idea of perfection is flawed. human perfection that is. Perfection cannot last becuase once something is perfect it does not change for it is perfect. Perfection is boring.One of my obvious favorite stories Fight Club adresses this when Tyler says something like "Perfection can only last for a moment and that`s all you can ever expect from it". I believe where we are now is paradise and the best thing that can happen after death would be coming back.
im shocked you would refer to this world as paradise. you must be joking, do you know how much crime goes on in this world
rape
abuse
molestation
terrorist attacks
killing
pornography
discrimination
hate crimes
robbery
paradise :lol:
Capo Digi
02-14-2006, 03:54
i dont think you get what im saying, why believe in nothing then something. based on your beliefs, when you die thats it, you said for yourself you would like to go to a place like heaven, so why dont you believe in god.
you dont believe in anything right now, so what would happen if you started to believe in god? you wouldnt be hurt or killed, so why not try it
Man, this is why it's undebatable.
Do you believe all living things go to heaven?
Do you believe humanity evolved? if so, at what point were we human enough to go to heaven.
If not, then you believe in the 7 day creation myth, which is mind bogglingly ridiculous.
If people truly believed in god and heaven then people would not be half as miserable as they seem to appear.
If I truly believed in heaven then it would be fantastic, I could go through life without a care in the world, nothing would faze me as I know I'll be in heaven living for eternity when I die.
I'd stand up at funerals shouting "it's ok everyone, stop crying, he's in heaven, it's bliss there and he's happy, lets celebrate".
The fact is people don't really believe they and their dead loved ones are going to heaven, when they think about heaven they just can't bear to admit to themselves that it's religious hogwash.
I'm happy to live with what I believe to be true, would god not let me in if I'm wrong? Certainly not worth going to hell for.
I'm a considerate person, I don't steal, don't cause others pain, physically or mentally and I try to do what's good for the world as a whole.
Belief in heaven is just a ridiculous concept to me.
WARNING: This post may contain opinions that may not be shared with others on this forum. Discretion is advised. :P
why would you rather just die and that be it, rather then believe that you would go to a perfect place when you die?
Us non-believers, as much as it may astound believers, is that we find comfort in believing fact than relying on faith.
We won't find the meaning of life or why we are here until we die. Until then, I forever believe in God.
Well.. the meaning of life, by definition and nature, is to live. :) Think about it..
But seriously, there is no meaning to life. Although some may want to think there is, there isn't. If certain stages of human development millions of years ago didn't carry on the way it did, we most probably would be following a completely different evolutionary path, and it could be possible that we'd still be as intelligent and as dominant on this earth as any other organism.
The point is that because us humans are so advanced compared to other animals in the animal kingdom is due to a number of different physical traits, courtesy of natural selection. The reason we seek for meaning is because we want it to be there, and a bunch of matter in a void of space does not seem like it has a meaning to me. It is an equilibrium and thus that is it's meaning, I guess. To live.
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 04:01
Do you believe all living things go to heaven?
yes, even animals.
Do you believe humanity evolved? if so, at what point were we human enough to go to heaven.
evolution and christianity dont mix, soooooo that question cant be answered. if you believe in god, you dont believe in evolution
If not, then you believe in the 7 day creation myth, which is mind bogglingly ridiculous.
how is it ridiculous if god is almighty and omnipitent
If people truly believed in god and heaven then people would not be half as miserable as they seem to appear.
dont know what your talking about. if all people believed in god and heaven, then we wouldnt be misrable
EDIT: hey mickee are you saying there is no evidence of jesus. there are many accounts of his existance, not just in the bible
Coldfire
02-14-2006, 04:04
I am very aware of the crime and such that happens in this world. but I simply dont think It`s gonna get any better then this.
as for the meaning of life...its to give your life meaning. Even if you wake up everyday to do drugs, to you if that`s a good enough reason to live then it`s your own personal meaning to life.
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 04:08
I am very aware of the crime and such that happens in this world. but I simply dont think It`s gonna get any better then this.
i just dont get why people tend to choose evil over good
why would you want to come back, why wouldnt you want to go to a place like heaven. it makes no sense
i just dont get it :roll:
Coldfire
02-14-2006, 04:15
Because to me, this is heaven. I dont like evil, but i like knowing when i wake up that today will be different and i will and today will be exiting. In a perfect world, every day would be EXACTLY the same since that one day is perfect. time wouldnt even have to move, you would be stuck in a perfect little moment of perfection forever. and you wouldnt be happy becuase you would be so perfectly content.
Capo Digi
02-14-2006, 04:20
Do you believe all living things go to heaven?
yes, even animals.
So that includes flies, lice, tapeworms and coral. what about bacteria? how about the aids virus? where does god draw the line?
Do you believe humanity evolved? if so, at what point were we human enough to go to heaven.
evolution and christianity dont mix, soooooo that question cant be answered. if you believe in god, you dont believe in evolution
Which is another example of how deluded people are further blinded from knowledge and progression.
If not, then you believe in the 7 day creation myth, which is mind bogglingly ridiculous.
how is it ridiculous if god is almighty and omnipitent
So you don't believe the earth spent miliions of years as a molten ball of rock then, formed from the left overs of our sun's own millions of years of formation? Ouch, this religious stuff can seriously affect your education
If people truly believed in god and heaven then people would not be half as miserable as they seem to appear.
dont know what your talking about. if all people believed in god and heaven, then we wouldnt be misrable
No we'd still be sacrificing kids to make the harvests fruitful.
EDIT: hey mickee are you saying there is no evidence of jesus. there are many accounts of his existance, not just in the bible
Jesus could well have existed, it's the way the story is told that kind of spoils the message i.e: bizarre miracles etc.
[/quote][quote]
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 04:20
Because to me, this is heaven. I dont like evil, but i like knowing when i wake up that today will be different and i will and today will be exiting. In a perfect world, every day would be EXACTLY the same since that one day is perfect. time wouldnt even have to move, you would be stuck in a perfect little moment of perfection forever. and you wouldnt be happy becuase you would be so perfectly content.
perfect does not mean same
unless they recently changed the definition :roll:
if your perfectly content, that would be happiness..............wouldnt it :? i would surely think so
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 04:24
So you don't believe the earth spent miliions of years as a molten ball of rock then, formed from the left overs of our sun's own millions of years of formation? Ouch, this religious stuff can seriously affect your education
Scientist weren’t present when all this happened, so we cant truly rely on what they say. I believe god formed the earth and the universe
No we'd still be sacrificing kids to make the harvests fruitful.
What Christians do that today? absolutely none
Coldfire
02-14-2006, 04:27
let me put it to you this way...what would you do in heaven?
wouldnt have to eat or drink or fulfill yourself in any way...
no need to be creative since the perfect piece of art was already created and making anything other then that would make the world not perfect
already perfectly owned every game on playstation
what would you talk about? how perfect the world was?
why get up at all? you have already have done everything possible in the most perfect of ways
it`s like how much fun is god mode after the first few times youve done it?
how fun would it be to play the sims if they never have any wants or needs?
Capo Digi
02-14-2006, 04:33
Scientist weren’t present when all this happened, so we cant truly rely on what they say. I believe god formed the earth and the universe
So in one respect we have the current observation of millions of stars and solar systems being formed and on the other we have some tatty old parchments word for it.
No we'd still be sacrificing kids to make the harvests fruitful.
What Christians do that today? absolutely none
We have modern thinking and scientific data to thank for saving those kids.
It's amazing how far back you can go and still see science disproving "magic".
[/quote]
Hey narutoboy, no double-posting mate. It's the rules, you know. :P
I think this discussion should be closed and re-opened for discussion somewhere else, I wouldn't like to see this turn nasty. Believe me, I'm all for debating but you can NEVER succeed in changing someone's personal beliefs by posting a reply to a thread. It aint 'gonna happen.
For the sake of a whole and un-divided forum community, comply. :P
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 04:39
i feel so alone right now :cry: . i got no believers backing me right now, and 3 non believers against me.
my efforts trying to disprove you guys are futile and will be in vain. so im ending my part in this debate
EDIT: sorry for the double post guys
EDIT: let me just end this by saying, when you know who returns, all of you who have been reluctant to accept god, will be sorry :) .
Capo Digi
02-14-2006, 04:45
You can take heart from the poll results though narutoboy.
Hey narutoboy, no double-posting mate. It's the rules, you know. :P
I think this discussion should be closed and re-opened for discussion somewhere else, I wouldn't like to see this turn nasty. Believe me, I'm all for debating but you can NEVER succeed in changing someone's personal beliefs by posting a reply to a thread. It aint 'gonna happen.
For the sake of a whole and un-divided forum community, comply. :P
No worries miickEe, I think we all know we're banging our heads against walls here, as expected.
No disrepect intended narutoboy, you put up a good fight, (as expected).
It's getting late here anyway, I better get some sleep before the sandman comes. :wink:
Hey narutoboy, don't feel bad about it man.
People are gonna believe what they wanna believe, due to many reasons, and to some more than others. You can't change it, that's life. :) Just feel good that you believe, and make sure no-one tries to make you believe otherwise. Although I am all for debating the non-existance of a God, I believe that freedom is not confined to what you say, but also what you think. You can believe whatever you believe, for whatever reason, without being descriminated against. At least, that's how I view it.
I guess that's easier said than done. xD
hoverbike
02-14-2006, 04:52
i feel so alone right now :cry: . i got no believers backing me right now, and 3 non believers against me.
Don't worry, I believe in the same thing. You are not alone here.
Debates are good on this forum so it's not bad.
Coldfire
02-14-2006, 05:04
Hey I believe in God, just my god is a personal god. my whole belief system is not based off of a religion, but rather my own ideas of what god is(and isn`t).Sort of similar to the ideas expressed by Soren kierkegaard who believed....
Christian faith is not a matter of regurgitating church dogma. It is a matter of individual subjective passion, which cannot be mediated by the clergy or by human artefacts. Faith is the most important task to be achieved by a human being, because only on the basis of faith does an individual have a chance to become a true self. This self is the life-work which God judges for eternity.
justintheman99
02-14-2006, 13:49
I voted that I truly don't know. I mean they say we evolved from apes and if that is true then what about the whole Adam and Eve story? I mean we can't all come from the 1 source or else we would all be drooling and walking crooked. Also the DaVinci Code is very convincing (I am so excited for the movie!). I mean what if Christ was never crucified and that he had a wife, offspring, and that his bloodline still exists today!?!? Very scary stuff to think about actually!
I belive in god, for the simple reason that something must have triggered the big bang. I don't belive all the garden of eden and all that. But i do belive that Jesus was the son of god and that God is a Higher being in control of us all. Thats just my view. Feel free to dissagree.
How come when people talk about believing in god they always bring up in the conversation how marvellous and beautiful the human body is, and that it couldn't have been done by anything other than a higher being. Wow, we have eyes that we can see out of. So do almost all animals on the planet. Most of them having far superior vision then us. Wow our nervous system is so great and we have big squishy brains which can create complex machines. What did we decide to do with the magnificent brains of ours? We created war, chemical weapons and prejudice against anything that is different from us. And we also created not one religion but many of them. Hindu, Buddhist, Christianity, Islamic, Shinto an many others. So what religion is the right one? If we choose wrong are we doomed to spend the rest of eternity burning in the depths of hell?
Countless times throughout history religion has been the cause of horrible events:
- The Crusades (Christian vs. Muslim)
- Salem Witch Trials
- Persecution of Christians (2nd to early 4th centuries, Romans vs. Christians)
- Massacres of Indian Independence (1947, Hindu vs. Muslim)
- Albigensian Crusade (13th century, orthodox Christians killing heretics)
- Sri Lanka (1983 to present, Hindus mainly killing Buddhists)
- Sudanese Civil War (1983 to present, Muslims vs. Christians and Animist rebels)
- Teutonic Knights and their Crusades (13th through 15th centuries, Christians vs. Pagans and other Christians)
- Al Qaeda (Present day, Muslim fanatics vs. westerners)
- Holy Inquisition (Christian vs. Jews, Muslims and heretics, Spain, 15th to 19th centuries, also spreading to other countries)
The list could go on and on. Now why would god create something in his image which would do all these things. And why haven't we learned from any of the mistakes we have made in the past. Because we are essentially a flawed race and fluke chance of a long line of evolution.(IMO)
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones" - Albert Einstein
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 18:52
god gave us freewill, a choice
what do the things we do whith our brains have to do with anything. that does not mean a higher power didnt created us.
god/religion doesnt cause war, people do.
god made us flawed, he didnt make us perfect. where the heck did you here that. the only person tht is perfect is jesus
That is one of the first times i have agreed with you narutoboy! You got it down to a tee!
Yes but the reason that most wars occur are because people believing in different religions and this causes frictions between entire nations sometimes which cause zealots to do things which they believe to be for their god. What im saying is if there wasn't religion then there would be a hell of a less turmoil going on in the world.
I am in agreeance with Cedric here, there's nothing special about humans as opposed to any other organism on this Earth, despite some physical traits that have been crucial in the domination and estabishment of settlements on the planet.
I really don't see any more point to this discussion, there are plenty of other forums on the net that offer this sort of discussion 24/7 and all offer the same futility, as debating religion vs science on the internet is pointless.
hoverbike
02-14-2006, 21:46
The list could go on and on. Now why would god create something in his image which would do all these things. And why haven't we learned from any of the mistakes we have made in the past. Because we are essentially a flawed race and fluke chance of a long line of evolution.(IMO)
There would be Wars even if there was no religion but your right about there being less. If everyone was the same religion then we would have less problems. It just the way it is and God gives everyone a chance to follow him. Why would God create something in his image which would do all these things? The answer is that we deserve it in the end for even Sinning in the first place, We all deserve to go to hell but Jesus7 died so we don't have too. That enough about that now.
Dead_EyeRO720
02-14-2006, 21:47
debating religion vs science on the internet is pointless.
I actually believe that all debate of religion vs. science is pointless. Science asks how, religion asks why. To say 'how' is somehow better than 'why' is in my opinion ridiculous. They are two different things, apples and oranges. I also don't appreciate being called 'delusional' by some people just because I ask 'why?' in addition to 'how?' It doesn't have to be belief in one and not the other.
Explaining how things happen is one thing, and suggesting why they happen is another.
I also think that extremists use religion as an excuse for war. People by their very nature fight. Having an excuse to fight is what they need, so they find it most pleasant to think that their god wants them to kill innocent people.
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 21:48
Yes but the reason that most wars occur are because people believing in different religions and this causes frictions between entire nations sometimes which cause zealots to do things which they believe to be for their god. What im saying is if there wasn't religion then there would be a hell of a less turmoil going on in the world.
i know i said i would end this but i have to respond again.
even though that may be true, it still comes down to "people". can you actually say there would be less turmoil without religion? (im mainly speaking about christian,jewish, and catholic religion) without religion there would be no morals, trust me the world would be even crazier. without religion, everything means nothing. people that have no religion, have no meaning and no goal. lets just say there was no more religion, people will find another reason to fight.
so tell me, if there is no higher power or something like that, then why isnt it okay to kill people. i mean your just gonna die and rot anyways, nothing gonna happen right. life means nothing right, when you die you die, so why dont you go commit crimes? (disregard the fact that you could go to jail)
debating religion vs science on the internet is pointless.
I actually believe that all debate of religion vs. science is pointless. Science asks how, religion asks why. To say 'how' is somehow better than 'why' is in my opinion ridiculous. They are two different things, apples and oranges. I also don't appreciate being called 'delusional' by some people just because I ask 'why?' in addition to 'how?' It doesn't have to be belief in one and not the other.
Explaining how things happen is one thing, and suggesting why they happen is another.
I also think that extremists use religion as an excuse for war. People by their very nature fight. Having an excuse to fight is what they need, so they find it most pleasant to think that their god wants them to kill innocent people.I agree, just like Islam, I took a world religions course and I foung that their religion is
totally agianst war, even agianst cutting down a lot of trees! but people just use religion
to say as an excuse to fight.
Svetlana
02-14-2006, 21:55
Having been raised up in a religious environment, attending a Christian school, I can safely say that I do not believe in the concept of there being a god. I know that sentence contradicts itself but having been dragged through the fundamental Christian views of raging clergymen as a child, religion itself is just something I find repugnant. Through these experiences, I have found it difficult to accept there could be an omnipotent, loving and just god watching out for every one of us.
It's often said that it's religion that has instigated many global conflicts and I agree wholeheartedly with this. Religion and god are two separate concepts but it is hard to differentiate between the two as all faiths have gods of their own and with religion, all faiths share similarities.
You'll all probably laugh at this snippet of Svetlana information but I'm a paranormal investigator in my spare time. You're probably asking yourself 'why does she believe in ghosts and not god', and my response would simply be: evidence. At least with the paranormal, I'm able to gather things like EVP's, temperature fluctuations, capture images of ghosts on camera and film and am able to see them with my own eyes. With god, I have to read a manuscript that has been doctored by various people over the centuries and even the 'truths' in it are scientifically questionable.
This makes the paranormal far more believable than there being a god, for me at least.
Dead_EyeRO720
02-14-2006, 22:36
With god, I have to read a manuscript that has been doctored by various people over the centuries and even the 'truths' in it are scientifically questionable.
Though I believe that there is a higher power out there somewhere, I do not take holy books entirely on their word. The reason? Books are written by people, not deities. I do not necessarily agree with everything the churches say, but that does not mean there is no room for belief in God. There is a god, I'm sure of it. That does not however mean I have swallowed everything humans like me have guessed, assumed or hypothesized. Some things just come from feelings and senses beyond what we see, hear, touch, etc.
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 22:44
With god, I have to read a manuscript that has been doctored by various people over the centuries and even the 'truths' in it are scientifically questionable.
Though I believe that there is a higher power out there somewhere, I do not take holy books entirely on their word. The reason? Books are written by people, not deities. I do not necessarily agree with everything the churches say, but that does not mean there is no room for belief in God. There is a god, I'm sure of it. That does not however mean I have swallowed everything humans like me have guessed, assumed or hypothesized. Some things just come from feelings and senses beyond what we see, hear, touch, etc.
if you were truly in tune with God, the church, and the Bible, you would know that God himself spoke to/threw these people when they were writting the Bible
the bible has been modified so much now its hard to really know god's words...
I wonder where the original bible is...
Dead_EyeRO720
02-14-2006, 22:55
the bible has been modified so much now its hard to really know god's words...
I wonder where the original bible is...Yes, that is what I meant by that. Thank you for clearing it up!
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 22:57
the bible has been modified so much now its hard to really know god's words...
I wonder where the original bible is...
how do you know its been modified, if you have never seen the original? :o
i got you there :P
Shrinnan
02-14-2006, 23:02
Actually, a while back I had heard that a Bible was found in a jug by some kids, it was in a cave. Anyway, the Bible dated back to right after the Bible was completed, I believe it may have been in scroll form, anyway, they compared it to the KJV version and it was word for word in translation.
how do you know its been modified, if you have never seen the original? :o
i got you there :P
It works both ways you know. How do you know it's not been modified, considering no one in this generation's seen the original?
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 23:12
how do you know its been modified, if you have never seen the original? :o
i got you there :P
It works both ways you know. How do you know it's not been modified, considering no one in this generation's seen the original?
thats true, but i wasnt the one who first made the statement about the bible being modified.
it does work both ways though, i dont think its modified though. god said he would codemn anybody who changes the bible. anyways he wouldnt let devoted christians keep learning false facts
EDIT: hey zerogravity where did you hear that.
I know the reason why everyone believes in their certain religions i truly do. I can understand that narutoboy believes thats jesus died for his sins. But i can also understand why people believe in valhalla, the ragnarok and all the other religous ideals. So what should i believe in? Should i believe in Odin sitting upon his horse or Zeus throwing thunderbolts down from the sky. There are so many religions that i just decided i didn't want a part of any of it. If one religion was the true religion then everyone would believe in the same thing but since the world is split into many reigons belief grew and followed many different paths that is why different countries believe in different things. Maybe there is a true religion but there sure are alot of phony ones.
how do you know its been modified, if you have never seen the original? :o
i got you there :P
It works both ways you know. How do you know it's not been modified, considering no one in this generation's seen the original?
thats true, but i wasnt the one who first made the statement about the bible being modified.
it does work both ways though, i dont think its modified though. god said he would codemn anybody who changes the bible. anyways he wouldnt let devoted christians keep learning false factsso you're saying he will send another prophet to fix the bible?
Shrinnan
02-14-2006, 23:16
EDIT: hey zerogravity where did you hear that.
My Pastor told me (he either did research or found out himself in (probably Israel because he goes to foreign countries to preach a lot)).
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 23:17
I know the reason why everyone believes in their certain religions i truly do. I can understand that narutoboy believes thats jesus died for his sins. But i can also understand why people believe in valhalla, the ragnarok and all the other religous ideals. So what should i believe in? Should i believe in Odin sitting upon his horse or Zeus throwing thunderbolts down from the sky. There are so many religions that i just decided i didn't want a part of any of it. If one religion was the true religion then everyone would believe in the same thing but since the world is split into many reigons belief grew and followed many different paths that is why different countries believe in different things. Maybe there is a true religion but there sure are alot of phony ones.
here is what i suggest you do, gather up a whole bunch of religions that seem "believable" to you. study them, compare them and contrast them, and challenge them.
after all this im sure you will have found a religion that works for you. i understand some people just dont need or care for religion, so if your that person, fine forget what i say and ill leave you alone
here is what i suggest you do, gather up a whole bunch of religions that seem "believable" to you. study them, compare them and contrast them, and challenge them.
If you approach any religion with logic, then all fail, if you don't use logic then all are believable, so what's the point?
Just remember, if you want the religion you want, you don;t have to be a christain,
if you like bhuddism, choose that, if you like islam then follow that, if you like
christianity then choose that.
it is up to you to decide which religion is right.
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 23:35
here is what i suggest you do, gather up a whole bunch of religions that seem "believable" to you. study them, compare them and contrast them, and challenge them.
If you approach any religion with logic, then all fail, if you don't use logic then all are believable, so what's the point?
lol, im sorry i just have to say, thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard someone say.
some religions are logical. it really depends on what you believe is logical. obviously from that ignorant statement your not an open minded person and you dont believe in anything you cant see.
some religions are logical. it really depends on what you believe is logical. obviously from that ignorant statement your not an open minded person and you dont believe in anything you cant see.
Ok just from the top of my head....
noah's flood -> BS
7 days of creation -> BS
Proove these to me , with logic, AND scientific evidence and then i'll accept this, there is NONE religion based on logic.
some religions are logical. it really depends on what you believe is logical. obviously from that ignorant statement your not an open minded person and you dont believe in anything you cant see.
Ok just from the top of my head....
noah's flood -> BS
7 days of creation -> BS
Proove these to me , with logic, AND scientific evidence and then i'll accept this, there is NONE religion based on logic.do you think that god cannot do anything that is beyond human possiblitly?
god is god, god and do anything
for example, if you don;t beleive in the flood, think about an ant farm and how big their
world seems to them, all we have to do is pour a glass of water and that is like a world
wide flood to them..
narutoboy
02-14-2006, 23:52
some religions are logical. it really depends on what you believe is logical. obviously from that ignorant statement your not an open minded person and you dont believe in anything you cant see.
Ok just from the top of my head....
noah's flood -> BS
7 days of creation -> BS
Proove these to me , with logic, AND scientific evidence and then i'll accept this, there is NONE religion based on logic.
if God is portrayed as an almighty and omnipitant figure, then how is noahs flood and the 7 day creation "BS"?
do you think that god cannot do anything that is beyond human possiblitly?
god is god, god and do anything
and HERE exaclty is the part when logic flyies out of the window, you're prepared to accept ANYTHING if there is a devine (i.e. not logical) explanation
for example, if you don;t beleive in the flood, think about an ant farm and how big their
world seems to them, all we have to do is pour a glass of water and that is like a world
wide flood to them..
Gilgamesh has made a long and difficult journey to learn how Utnapishtim acquired eternal life. In answer to his questions, Utnapishtim tells the following story. Once upon a time, the gods destroyed the ancient city of Shuruppah in a great flood. But Utnapishtim, forewarned by Ea, managed to survive by building a great ship. His immortality was a gift bestowed by the repentant gods in recognition of his ingenuity and his faithfulness in reinstituting the sacrifice.
The above is from the tale of gilgamesh , written 1000 years before Noah's tale.
Shrinnan
02-15-2006, 00:02
do you think that god cannot do anything that is beyond human possiblitly?
god is god, god and do anything
and HERE exaclty is the part when logic flyies out of the window, you're prepared to accept ANYTHING if there is a devine (i.e. not logical) explanation
for example, if you don;t beleive in the flood, think about an ant farm and how big their
world seems to them, all we have to do is pour a glass of water and that is like a world
wide flood to them..
Gilgamesh has made a long and difficult journey to learn how Utnapishtim acquired eternal life. In answer to his questions, Utnapishtim tells the following story. Once upon a time, the gods destroyed the ancient city of Shuruppah in a great flood. But Utnapishtim, forewarned by Ea, managed to survive by building a great ship. His immortality was a gift bestowed by the repentant gods in recognition of his ingenuity and his faithfulness in reinstituting the sacrifice.
The above is from the tale of gilgamesh , written 1000 years before Noah's tale.
And when was Noah's story written in the Bible? I hope you're not considering the date that the Bible was completed because Noah's arc was written a couple of thousand years before that.
Anyway, just because he had that story doesn't make Noah's arc false.
I remember watching the History Channel and they actually found remnants of ship pieces in the mountains, they thought it might have been pieces of Noah's arc.
DeputyDon
02-15-2006, 00:02
this is a thread to post your opinion and to argue you're point.
may I remind everyone that religious statements and comments are prohibted in this
thread you can only talk about god and nothign related to any religion.
I beleive in god as how were we created?
Lets leave it at "You make an excellent point, how were we created, oh wait, how was he created? You can't just create yourself."
Okay I don't believe in God, I'll leave it at that.
I made a thread exactly like this before, so it will get locked the instant a mod sees this.
if God is portrayed as an almighty and omnipitant figure, then how is noahs flood and the 7 day creation "BS"?
It's BS because all life on earth was planted by the mighty Zorgonian empire, that ruled the universe 4 billion years ago, they where so powerfull that they had the ability to create stars and planets.
Now i challenge YOU to prove the above statement wrong.
You simply can't , all religions base creation to a powerfull omnipotent being, but with no evidence that this being is actually existing, so for you is god, for muslims, allah, for budhists the bhuda and so on, all claim that their version of the story is the correct one, but noone can proove it, so for all we know it might be the mighty Zorgonian empire (that came out of my head right now) that build the universe.
hoverbike
02-15-2006, 00:11
some religions are logical. it really depends on what you believe is logical. obviously from that ignorant statement your not an open minded person and you dont believe in anything you cant see.
Ok just from the top of my head....
noah's flood -> BS
7 days of creation -> BS
Proove these to me , with logic, AND scientific evidence and then i'll accept this, there is NONE religion based on logic.
I don't know all the facts but there is proof out there.
Here is some scientific evidence on noah's flood:http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=7
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=95
I didn't read all of that so some may not have to do with noah's flood but it's normal.
narutoboy
02-15-2006, 00:11
this is a thread to post your opinion and to argue you're point.
may I remind everyone that religious statements and comments are prohibted in this
thread you can only talk about god and nothign related to any religion.
I beleive in god as how were we created?
Lets leave it at "You make an excellent point, how were we created, oh wait, how was he created? You can't just create yourself."
Okay I don't believe in God, I'll leave it at that.
I made a thread exactly like this before, so it will get locked the instant a mod sees this.
well then who created the stuff that made the big bang happen and who created the molten rock and ooze?
nothing can create its self as you say.
(im speaking in an evolutionist point of view, i dont believe in this big bang and ooze crap.)
so who created that empire? who created them where did they cocme from? if they
were humans just like us?
Shrinnan
02-15-2006, 00:15
You're right, I can't prove God, but by faith I believe.
"By faith are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves but the Gift of God lest any man should boast."
Dead_EyeRO720
02-15-2006, 00:15
What I mainly don't go along with is what the church says on other matters, not what it says about God. For example, I find it ridiculous that Benedict slammed the Harry Potter books and said that they were evil. The clergy are human beings, and as such they are not infallable. None of that stops me from believing in Him and what he stands for.
narutoboy
02-15-2006, 00:16
all you evolution people and other non believers, i would like you to answer this
"well then who created the stuff that made the big bang happen and who created the molten rock and ooze?"
if nothing can create itself, that stuff couldnt have existed either
hoverbike
02-15-2006, 00:21
What I mainly don't go along with is what the church says on other matters, not what it says about God. For example, I find it ridiculous that Benedict slammed the Harry Potter books and said that they were evil. The clergy are human beings, and as such they are not infallable. None of that stops me from believing in Him and what he stands for.
Benedict slammed the Harry Potter books because it has witchcraft and wizards in it. It's a huge book and has sold tons to kids and all ages.
And when was Noah's story written in the Bible? I hope you're not considering the date that the Bible was completed because Noah's arc was written a couple of thousand years before that.
Of course i want proof for that.
Anyway, just because he had that story doesn't make Noah's arc false.
The two stories are almost identical , just the names change and the location, so yes with the babylonia story written 1000 years before noah's, makes the later quite fishy.
alright this thread is getting into a big argument...let's just calm down.
Shrinnan
02-15-2006, 00:25
Of course i want proof for that.
Considering the Israelites worshipped the Old Testament (Torah) before the whole Bible was created, they followed it for thousands of years plus given the dates the Bible gives us..
I find it funny that you're asking me for proof when you're the one that said Giglamesh's story was 1,000 years before Noah's story.
anyway, I could say that a war was started by Canada (even though it was WW1 and it wasn't started by Canada). I could have said that there was a war 50 years before someone says it wasn't started by Canada, it was started by Germany. Two different situations, nearly identical.
narutoboy
02-15-2006, 00:28
alright this thread is getting into a big argument...let's just calm down.
yes it is, but its seems no one can answer my question :(
harry potter books were filled with witchcraft wich is totally against god and the bible
Dead_EyeRO720
02-15-2006, 00:28
Yes, but it is a fantasy novel. It never claimed to be a Christian allegory. It is a harmless story. Just because it has magic in it does not mean that the characters aren't good people who do good things for good reasons and try to overcome the real evil. The protagonists are not in any way against God. They even celebrate Christmas! Having a nature-defying plot device does not make a book evil. There are a lot of great morals in there written by an author who belongs to the Church of Scotland.
The two stories are almost identical , just the names change and the location, so yes with the babylonia story written 1000 years before noah's, makes the later quite fishy.
That happens a lot in religions. Pick up the religious books of religions and you'll see near identical stories, just with names or small bits changed.
Like how in the Bible, Jesus is the son of God, etc., but in the Qur'an, he's just a prophet of Allah and his name is Isa.
One of the Bible's stories having been written before it was put into the Bible isn't new. Half of the Bible is taken from the Torah.
Shrinnan
02-15-2006, 00:33
The two stories are almost identical , just the names change and the location, so yes with the babylonia story written 1000 years before noah's, makes the later quite fishy.
That happens a lot in religions. Pick up the religions books of religions and you'll see near identical stories just with names or small bits changed.
Like how in the Bible, Jesus is the son of God, etc., but in the Qur'an, he's just a propjet of Allah and his name is Isa.
One of the Bible's stories having been written before it was put into the Bible isn't new. Half of the Bible is taken from the Torah.
Part of the Bible IS the Torah (or half like you said)...
I wasn't sure if you were saying we don't consider the Torah to be part of the Bible, we do, we just call it the Old Testament.
DeputyDon
02-15-2006, 00:52
all you evolution people and other non believers, i would like you to answer this
"well then who created the stuff that made the big bang happen and who created the molten rock and ooze?"
if nothing can create itself, that stuff couldnt have existed either
I'm not saying that nothing can create itself. It's proven that the first thing that could carry on all the functions of life was the cell. Those gathered together to create bacteria, fungus, and other various things. It's also proven that under no circumstances could this have been done in 7 days.
A lot of people believe that by "7 day" it wasn't meant that the day were actually 7-24-hour days.
Heres something to think about. Okay, JC was born from Mary, which would make God, mary's husband, or spouse, whichever. If god had created everything and it's proven that there was billions of years before the year..."0," then why did he wait some many years for Mary to have a baby that could do what JC did? It doesn't add up. Too many things are missing from the puzzle. Yeah some say it's faith, faith is what makes it real. There might not be evidence but you have to believe.
Who wrote the bible then? I mean why would the bible ever be written in English? Chances are it wasn't, but think about how far religion goes back... I've heard stories in history about religion waaay back in the B.C. days. Religion was obviously started back then, so it's obvious that the whole JC story can't possibly be true.
I believe SOMEONE is at a state of higher power, but who, I don't know. So I chose not to have a specific religion. I don't believe in "God" because God is usually considered the whole JC story. But if religion was around before JC could have ever been born, then why/how could it be the real one. It would have to date back around the beginning of human existance for it too be true.
Shrinnan
02-15-2006, 00:55
all you evolution people and other non believers, i would like you to answer this
"well then who created the stuff that made the big bang happen and who created the molten rock and ooze?"
if nothing can create itself, that stuff couldnt have existed either
I'm not saying that nothing can create itself. It's proven that the first thing that could carry on all the functions of life was the cell. Those gathered together to create bacteria, fungus, and other various things. It's also proven that under no circumstances could this have been done in 7 days.
A lot of people believe that by "7 day" it wasn't meant that the day were actually 7-24-hour days.
Heres something to think about. Okay, *expletive deleted* was born from Mary, which would make God, mary's husband, or spouse, whichever. If god had created everything and it's proven that there was billions of years before the year..."0," then why did he wait some many years for Mary to have a baby that could do what *expletive deleted* did? It doesn't add up. Too many things are missing from the puzzle. Yeah some say it's faith, faith is what makes it real. There might not be evidence but you have to believe.
Who wrote the bible then? I mean why would the bible ever be written in English? Chances are it wasn't, but think about how far religion goes back... I've heard stories in history about religion waaay back in the B.C. days. Religion was obviously started back then, so it's obvious that the whole *expletive deleted* story can't possibly be true.
I believe SOMEONE is at a state of higher power, but who, I don't know. So I chose not to have a specific religion. I don't believe in "God" because God is usually considered the whole *expletive deleted* story. But if religion was around before *expletive deleted* could have ever been born, then why/how could it be the real one. It would have to date back around the beginning of human existance for it too be true.
Actually before J esus came to Earth people were believing that He would come (He hadn't come yet), the Bible doesn't deny that there were religions before J esus came to Earth, the belief before J esus (in order for people to get into Heaven) was to believe that a Messiah would come (J esus).
Considering the Israelites worshipped the Old Testament (Torah) before the whole Bible was created, they followed it for thousands of years plus given the dates the Bible gives us..
Biblical dates (I Kings 6:1, Gal 3:17, various generation lengths given in Genesis) place the Flood 1300 years before Solomon began the first temple. We can construct reliable chronologies for near Eastern history, particularly for Egypt, from many kinds of records from the literate cultures in the near East. These records are independent of, but supported by, dating methods such as dendrochronology and carbon-14. The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 B.C. +/- some small delta, placing the Flood around 2250 B.C. Unfortunately, the Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well back before 2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid, for example dates to the 26th century B.C., 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood). No sign in Egyptian inscriptions of this global flood around 2250 B.C.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
So i rest my case with that myth
As for the creation myth...
9 Then God said, �Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear�; and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, �Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth�; and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, �Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth�; and it was so.
16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
So according to bible god first created the earth, then the water, then the plants, and after that he created the SUN and all the other stars.
So as i said in my first post in this thread, logic and religion are totaly incompatible.
Shrinnan
02-15-2006, 01:01
Considering the Israelites worshipped the Old Testament (Torah) before the whole Bible was created, they followed it for thousands of years plus given the dates the Bible gives us..
Biblical dates (I Kings 6:1, Gal 3:17, various generation lengths given in Genesis) place the Flood 1300 years before Solomon began the first temple. We can construct reliable chronologies for near Eastern history, particularly for Egypt, from many kinds of records from the literate cultures in the near East. These records are independent of, but supported by, dating methods such as dendrochronology and carbon-14. The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 B.C. +/- some small delta, placing the Flood around 2250 B.C. Unfortunately, the Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well back before 2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid, for example dates to the 26th century B.C., 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood). No sign in Egyptian inscriptions of this global flood around 2250 B.C.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
So i rest my case with that myth
As for the creation myth...
Like I said, that still doesn't prove that Noah's Arc is false, you're choosing to assume it is because you don't choose to believe it.
I also said it was a couple thousand years before the Bible was complete, it said that the flood was about 1,300 years before Solomon created the Temple which was definitely before the Bible's completion.
Like I said, that still doesn't prove that Noah's Arc is false, you're choosing to assume it is because you don't choose to believe it.
I choose not to believe it, because there are not any geological evidence that a global flood ever occured, and because by the dates given in the bible, other civilisations have no record of it, if you bother to read the link that i gave you'll find another 40-50 reasons why noah's flood never happend.
P.S. Any comment on the creation myth?
Shrinnan
02-15-2006, 01:14
Like I said, that still doesn't prove that Noah's Arc is false, you're choosing to assume it is because you don't choose to believe it.
I choose not to believe it, because there are not any geological evidence that a global flood ever occured, and because by the dates given in the bible, other civilisations have no record of it, if you bother to read the link that i gave you'll find another 40-50 reason why noah's flood never happend.
So? There have been other accounts where the Bible even mentioned this great empire (the empire wasn't mentioned anywhere else) and no one believed it was there until we found evidence of this great empire. The name of the empire escapes me but it was very huge that it was kinda remarkable we hadn't found it sooner.
Oh, and God created light before He did land, the Sun wasn't created at that time however.
"evidence" isn't going to get me to change my mind, God already has my heart, I believe by faith that J esus came down to save me, you're not going to get me to disbelieve that.
"evidence" isn't going to get me to change my mind, God already has my heart, I believe by faith that J esus came down to save me, you're not going to get me to disbelieve that.
Of course, you can throw logic out of the window and believe whatever you want, I on the other hand prefer the less convenient path, of logic and evidence.
theman19
02-15-2006, 01:59
catholic school for 13 years. mass every sunday. 102% in scripture class. so ya i belive in god :D
hoverbike
02-15-2006, 02:14
Like I said, that still doesn't prove that Noah's Arc is false, you're choosing to assume it is because you don't choose to believe it.
I choose not to believe it, because there are not any geological evidence that a global flood ever occured, and because by the dates given in the bible, other civilisations have no record of it, if you bother to read the link that i gave you'll find another 40-50 reasons why noah's flood never happend.
P.S. Any comment on the creation myth?
Ok I'm going to read the link you gave and I can debate on that.
2. Gathering the Animals
Bringing all kinds of animals together in the vicinity of the ark presents significant problems.
Could animals have traveled from elsewhere? If the animals traveled from other parts of the world, many of them would have faced extreme difficulties.
Some, like sloths and penguins, can't travel overland very well at all.
Some, like koalas and many insects, require a special diet. How did they bring it along?
Some cave-dwelling arthropods can't survive in less than 100% relative humidity.
Some, like dodos, must have lived on islands. If they didn't, they would have been easy prey for other animals. When mainland species like rats or pigs are introduced to islands, they drive many indigenous species to extinction. Those species would not have been able to survive such competition if they lived where mainland species could get at them before the Flood.
This is quite funny. First of all, noah only needs 2 of each animal so the sloths could be in the area and just take their time. The insects diet thing I don't know anything about that. That's all I know about this.
Fresh foods. Many animals require their food to be fresh. Many snakes, for example, will eat only live foods (or at least warm and moving). Parasitoid wasps only attack living prey. Most spiders locate their prey by the vibrations it produces. [Foelix, 1996] Most herbivorous insects require fresh food. Aphids, in fact, are physically incapable of sucking from wilted leaves. How did Noah keep all these food supplies fresh?
Um...the same way we keep things fresh today maybe?
Coldfire
02-15-2006, 02:16
ya the flood, 7 days, all that stuff really isnt meant to be taken literally. I mean really, how could any human know exactly what happened when the universe was created. fundamentalists of religion are ignorant. its the fundamental muslims that car bomb and such.
speaking of islam, you all know how they got pissed when mohammed was made fun of in a cartoon and called it blasphemy. well mohammed is not a god, but merely a prophet. meaning its not blasphemous and also the ones treating mohammed as a god are idolers.
speaking of islam, you all know how they got pissed when mohammed was made fun of in a cartoon and called it blasphemy. well mohammed is not a god, but merely a prophet. meaning its not blasphemous and also the ones treating mohammed as a god are idolers.
They freaked out because depictions of Allah or prophets are against Islam. And Muslims don't treat Muhammed as a god.
Coldfire
02-15-2006, 02:24
I didnt say they all thought he was a god. but i see what your saying...i dont know all the rules of islam.
Capo Digi
02-15-2006, 02:39
yes it is, but its seems no one can answer my question :(
Hey narutoboy,
Here's one for you:
(I know he's gone now but he'll be back, so the rest of you please carry on with what you're discussing :) )
Big bang theory hasn't been sussed, huge amounts of evidence point to it happening, yet the trail runs into theoryville after that, or before that I should say, it's the next piece of the puzzle. I think that's where you need to claim god intervened, and leave the rest to cosmology and evolution. It's about the only place left for god to hide.
They estimate the universe as we know it, based on evidence and observation, as being between 15 and 20 billion years old, since this time gas has condensed and formed formed huge clouds that become stars, which eventually die and spew out material which makes more stars, planets, asteroids, gas etc.. we look in the sky and we can see it happening, stars and planets being born everywhere we look.
We can even use deep field images to see things billions of light years away, as in billions of years ago due to the light taking billions of years to reach us, and there will can still see galaxys, millions of them busily creating stars and planets.
Our own solar system, has a secondary star at it's centre, made when debris from other stars and other bits and bobs were brought together by gravity and became so dense a chain reaction started that brought it to life as the star we see today - the sun.
It's just a very large planet that got too large and became a star. Our planets formed from some of the leftovers, the rest of it is still floating around us as huge asteroid belts.
Using what we see in millions of other solar systems and comparing it to ours, we estimate ours is about 4.6 billion years old.
Yet you don't believe this process happens? You think it's nonsense because it contradicts your bible.
I really think you should at least adopt the fractionally less ridiculous concept of "Intelligent Design", it would be less frustrating for us non-believers and you could hold up a better argument instead of reciting the writings of a few people in the middle east thousands of years ago, they did tend to exaggerate back then you know.
With respect.
Well, one of the key reasons people tend to disbelieve in God is because they don't feel like they should be accountable for their actions. They feel that just about all that happens on planet Earth is random, and there is no design in anything that we do, and that our will is meaningless. Let me explain something to the skeptics, we all are accountable for our actions. If we are accountable here on Earth to men in authority like police and judges and the people we hurt, then most assuredly we are accountable to our Creator. It may seem unfair in the fact that we were born this way but there are times in your life when you are presented with something and you either choose to accept it or reject it.
And this thing about not fearing death is not ...well, let's just say it's not permanent. Because when death approaches, when you are laying on your death bed, you cannot help to feel that there is something more beyond the grave, and that you have lived your life for yourself and never really tried to learn God's plan for your life. People who don't have C hrist in their life go through this process, but those who accept C hrist as their savior stop fearing death.
To the people who say that there's nothing special about humanity which humans are you looking at? You can't compare humans to animals or insects because we have free will and a conscious, they don't. Where did free will and a conscious come from? How come we are not in trees like animals flinging our poo at one another? The answer is simple, God made us this way and we all have a purpose. He wants to conform us into the image of his Son, simple.
There are many things in my life that prove that there is a God. I used to be a very avid writer, writing fantasy stories and science fiction and horror but after I accepted C hrist I attempted to continue going down that route and I was actually doing reall well but I suddenly began to lose interest in it. Weird ain't it? The explanation? The Lord doesn't want me to go down that path.
I used to be a very avid classical music fan and always wanted to play in front of a crowd as a concert pianist. But after I became saved I began to lose interest in it. Weird ain't it? The explanation? The Lord doesn't want me to go down that path.
Of course, there are many more examples, and I'm sure I'll be met with skepticism. But these things are not only for my benefit but also--I believe--are for me to share with my fellow man.
So just remember that there IS a purpose to life. Life is not chance, no matter how far fetched someone may think the words of the Bible are. We are all born with a purpose and God wants us to discover that purpose he has for our life.
james3579
02-15-2006, 05:40
im am a christian, and it does me good to see how many people do believe in god
Coldfire
02-15-2006, 05:56
this is not meant to reflect my beliefs.
have any of you heard of pascals wager? it basically says you should believe in god becuase it`s logical, since...
if you believe in god and he exists :D
if you believe in god and he doesn`t exist :cry:
if you dont believe in god and he exists :cry:
if you dont believe in god and he doesn`t exist :cry:
so the only way to end up :D in the end is to believe.
*again, I`m just throwing this out there, i know there`s lots of problems to this idea*
we are forgetting the most vital aspect of a fact, proof. everyone can have their beliefs but at the end of the day there has to be proof. without proof we cant state anything as a fact.alright, we as humans have a very complex organ system even the eye is a miracle
on it's own, how can out perfect bodies and errorless nervous system be created
by the big bang?
I have to agree I don't think we could just evolve into so complicated "creatures", I do believe GOD created us in his image.
Why do people believe that humans Evolved from monkeys? HOW?
PS3 rocks
02-15-2006, 07:13
Seriously not another god related topic these hve been discussed and disucssed the point is that no one can disprove or prove religion
Capo Digi
02-15-2006, 08:05
I have to agree I don't think we could just evolve into so complicated "creatures", I do believe GOD created us in his image.
Why do people believe that humans Evolved from monkeys? HOW?
Natural selection, a very straight forward process.
Why are polar bears white?
As bears moved further north or the climate changed and they hunted in more snowy (white) conditions, the bears with lighter fur had a slight advantage when hunting, therefore their young were more likely to survive, of these cubs, the ones with the lightest fur had a slight advantage over the others and had healthier cubs which shared their slightly lighter fur and so on and so on until you get the pure white bear we see today.
Of course this happened over millions of years, a huge amount of species have camouflage due to the same process. For some it's to hide from predators, for others it's to hide from prey.
This is just one example of how a genetic variation can lead to a huge change down the line.
It's exactly the same for all animals, the odd genetic variation can lead to a slight advantage, the same variation is more likely to be passed on due to the advantage it gave. This happens over thousands of generations and is the true miracle of life, the ability to adapt.
The humans we see today are the product of millions and millions of years of this process, monkeys are monkeys, we are not, never were, similar at one time, certainly, but we eventually emerged from Africa, after many shapes and forms, as humans, we learnt how to defend ourselves well and how to hunt, eventually we learnt how to keep animals for food and clothing, and we learnt how to farm food, so we basically didn't have a care in the world.
That's when we chilled out and had time to think and ponder our surroundings.. This lead to an acceleration in our learning and technology, it wasn't a struggle just to survive anymore, we had time to try new things and think, to create art, create gods and religion.
Humans are the lucky ones, there have been many hominids who couldn't adapt, like Neanderthals, we bumped into them when we moved out of Africa, they were less advanced and they couldn't compete, so they died out, just like the 95-99% of species have in our Earth's history, just like we could have.
I think it's doing an injustice to the really amazing reality of the world we live in to pass it off as "gods work", if it it gods work then obviously our warranty must have run out, cause he sure doesn't seem to be fixing the huge number of genetic defects us humans are riddled with. Very shoddy work indeed. :roll:
You obviously haven't heard of the miracles that happen in our world today. Have you ever heard of Benny Hinn Ministries?
Look, the universe is an equilibrium system, meaning the net charge of the universe is 0 (equal), and meaning that the net mass of everything contained within the universe has remained constant...
That's not true. It is not the creation that is eternal but rather the Creator.
I think I have to use the powers vested upon me a as a mod to warn you guys:
If this "debate" leads into a flame war, then I'll have to use some extreme measures.
Which would include a reduction of Skill Points to those that participated in the flaming (no matter how minor).
Also, this isn't suppose to be a debating thread, just a thread to say whether or not you believe in a God, any one, or none at all.
Capo Digi
02-15-2006, 17:14
I think I have to use the powers vested upon me a as a mod to warn you guys:
If this "debate" leads into a flame war, then I'll have to use some extreme measures.
Which would include a reduction of Skill Points to those that participated in the flaming (no matter how minor).
Also, this isn't suppose to be a debating thread, just a thread to say whether or not you believe in a God, any one, or none at all.
I don't see how you can have a poll and not expect people to give reasons for their choice, it happens in every poll.
The first sentence of this thread is:
"this is a thread to post your opinion and to argue you're point.
If everyone keeps it to god and keeps the various religions out of it, we should be alright.
Also, half a dozen people have mentioned this will get locked, and this will end up in flames.. Well it's 5 pages long now and I can't see flames, which is pretty good going for any thread you have to admit.
There's flaming and minor flaming all over this board.
I guess being an atheist all my life I've become less sensitive about this subject, it's not like we're talking about Xbox V PlayStation. :P
narutoboy
02-15-2006, 17:48
so if we can assume that, why cant we assume that god has always been there? your statement basically contradicts what all evolutionist and non believer say. "god couldnt have always been there"...
Exactly, Naruto boy, like I said, it's not the creation that is eternal but rather the Creator.
hoverbike
02-15-2006, 21:31
You obviously haven't heard of the miracles that happen in our world today. Have you ever heard of Benny Hinn Ministries?
I would watch out for him, he's not with God like he says. He's a fake and quite evil too. However, what he does is possible with people blessed by God but this Hinn guy is just plain low. He has been exposed many times and has not healed 1 single person. It's sad to see a human taking advantage of God but he's in not going to get away with it much longer. If you look him up in full detail you see some of the remarks he said in 1989 and they are just plain crazy. This is my opinion but really, don't support him.
So wait, you don't think the people who claim to get healed by his ministry are actually being healed? Not by him mind you but by God? And if that's the case, if people are indeed being healed then how can that not be of God? I know there was a report on Dateline about him a few years back but he then refuted all that was said on TBN point by point. I don't know. I know there is a website that pretty much slams a lot of well known men of God like Jack Van Impe, Billy Graham, and some others, but I've read that website and some of the things they accuse Billy Graham of he's never mentioned during his broadcasts, such as the doctrine of hell, or his belief that you can't go to heaven unless you are born again, which they claim he said was not true.
narutoboy
02-15-2006, 21:44
benny hinn is going to the bad place
look at all of his false prophecies and statements. he is a liar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_hinn
o if we can assume that, why cant we assume that god has always been there? your statement basically contradicts what all evolutionist and non believer say. "god couldnt have always been there" thats what you guys say, so why is it ok to think all that matter was just there?
Alright, this is my last post in this thread.
Narutoboy, the only thing that is omnipotent is the universe itself; it's is everywhere, obviously, because that's what a universe is. The matter in the universe had to have always been there because the universe is an equilibrium, it is impossible to create and destroy matter, so there is no possible way to change the equilibrium, period. Therefore, God could not have created the "universe", because it contradicts the law of conservation of mass, which is physically impossible.
Definition of Omnipotent:
Omnipotence (literally, "all power") is power with no limits or inexhaustible, in other words, unlimited power.
Definition of Omnipresent:
Omnipresence is defined, in a general sense, as the ability to be present in every place at the same time; unbounded or universal presence. It is a synonym of ubiquity .
If God is omnipotent, and omnipresent all at the same time then he would have to actually be the universe, which is absurd, because nothing else in the universe has more power than the universe itself, respectively. Maybe you're mistaking worship not to a God, but to the physical universe.
Just throwing it out there.. that's enough debating for me. I'm outta here. See you all around the forums.
narutoboy
02-15-2006, 21:59
all this equilibrium bull crap is just stuff some scientist made up. (or shall i say thought up)
You again contradict yourself and everybody else, nothing can create itself right? So the matter couldn’t have just existed according to you. So using your logic, the universe itself couldn’t have always been there, could it?
The law of conversation of mass was thought up by human beings. human beings are not perfect, so they can be wrong
If you are omnipotent, you are omnipresent.
EDIT: you never answered my question, if you can believe that this matter and other stuff was always there, then why cant you believe that god was always there? its basically the same thing
alright guys...this is starting to get into a debate here...calm down.
Dead_EyeRO720
02-15-2006, 22:06
The idea though is that God doesn't follow the rules of nature. Sure it is hard for us as humans to comrehend doing all this but He made the place, He doesn't have to follow the rules He has set down for us.
It is difficult to explain this, but I am wondering how all our laws of matter came to be, or why they are not different. With that last sentence I know I am babbling but I just thought I'd put it out there if anyone wants a brain teaser.
Oh, ZeroGravity, that empire wasn't Babylon was it?
The law of conversation of mass was thought up by human beings. human beings are not perfect, so they can be wrong
And when they are wrong, they adapt their theories, and their views for the world and move forward unlike some other people here.
Shrinnan
02-15-2006, 22:29
Oh, ZeroGravity, that empire wasn't Babylon was it?
Nope, I wish I could remember the name. All I know is that it wasn't Babylon and it was never recorded anyplace else except the Bible, no one believed it was there until evidence proved otherwise.
Your "only the universe can be omnipresent and omnipotent" argument won't work on Christians as God has always shown He does what seems impossible, if He created the Universe He should be above it shouldn't He?
I like to put it this way.
God has Divine or Perfect Logic while we have human or imperfect logic.
narutoboy
02-15-2006, 22:42
The law of conversation of mass was thought up by human beings. human beings are not perfect, so they can be wrong
And when they are wrong, they adapt their theories, and their views for the world and move forward unlike some other people here.
they can never truly know there right about that subject
none of you can answer this, if you can believe that the matter was just always there, then why cant you believe that god was always there?
i just want that question answered then ill be done
hoverbike
02-15-2006, 23:10
So wait, you don't think the people who claim to get healed by his ministry are actually being healed? Not by him mind you but by God? And if that's the case, if people are indeed being healed then how can that not be of God? I know there was a report on Dateline about him a few years back but he then refuted all that was said on TBN point by point. I don't know. I know there is a website that pretty much slams a lot of well known men of God like Jack Van Impe, Billy Graham, and some others, but I've read that website and some of the things they accuse Billy Graham of he's never mentioned during his broadcasts, such as the doctrine of hell, or his belief that you can't go to heaven unless you are born again, which they claim he said was not true.
Yes I know, it's hard to tell who is good and who is bad. I think Billy Graham is good and Jack too. I have heard that Jack van Impe went crazy after his dates of when Jesus' is coming back were wrong. I still think Jack van is doing to right things so I don't care. It seems we can't trust anyone these days.
theman19
02-16-2006, 01:01
i just wanted to clear some speculation. the bible is not meant to be proven because it is not factual. ancient writers did NOT focus on telling history. its just not what they did. they focused on trying to get the message of god to all the people. often time numbers were exaggerated, locations mixed up. in fact the hebrews probly werent in the desert for 40 years. its all a metaphor meant to get a message across not to teach history. there was no adam and eve. in fact if you actually read genesis there are TWO different and contradictory creation stories. however both stories get across the point that... God is one, God loves man, God does no0t want man to be alone, etc. in a way it can be related to the stories of greek mythology. in fact much of the bible that many people take literally is in fact a myth legend or parable. I am a catholic and go to catholic school. Catholics interpret the bible contextually, meaning we read between the lines. and in my opion this is how the bible is meant to be read. well that was was tought ot me this year in freshman scripture class. just thought i should clear things up. there was no tower or babylon, no noahs ark, no adam and eve, there was no Job. all these were created by ancient scribes during the babylonian exile to tell the hebrews about God. thats what i have been taught and just though all you should know
Shrinnan
02-16-2006, 01:56
i just wanted to clear some speculation. the bible is not meant to be proven because it is not factual. ancient writers did NOT focus on telling history. its just not what they did. they focused on trying to get the message of god to all the people. often time numbers were exaggerated, locations mixed up. in fact the hebrews probly werent in the desert for 40 years. its all a metaphor meant to get a message across not to teach history. there was no adam and eve. in fact if you actually read genesis there are TWO different and contradictory creation stories. however both stories get across the point that... God is one, God loves man, God does no0t want man to be alone, etc. in a way it can be related to the stories of greek mythology. in fact much of the bible that many people take literally is in fact a myth legend or parable. I am a catholic and go to catholic school. Catholics interpret the bible contextually, meaning we read between the lines. and in my opion this is how the bible is meant to be read. well that was was tought ot me this year in freshman scripture class. just thought i should clear things up. there was no tower or babylon, no noahs ark, no adam and eve, there was no Job. all these were created by ancient scribes during the babylonian exile to tell the hebrews about God. thats what i have been taught and just though all you should know
I believe the Bible should be taken literally. Did you know that there is proof of a Sodom and Gemorrah? We found it through salt transactions and when we found the ruins they appeared to be burnt like the Bible had said. There are other circumstances (like the empire I was talking about) but that's the main one that I can...
a) Remember it in detail
b) Know exactly how they found it
c) It's a good example
You also said you didn't believe in Adam and Eve when there is evidence directing us to the location of the Garden of Eden. That contradiction that you said where the Bible had two different creation stories, I used to go to a Christian school (and I remember being shown how that isn't contradicting) but I can't remember it in great detail to help you out with that one.
hoverbike
02-16-2006, 02:23
i just wanted to clear some speculation. the bible is not meant to be proven because it is not factual. ancient writers did NOT focus on telling history. its just not what they did. they focused on trying to get the message of god to all the people. often time numbers were exaggerated, locations mixed up. in fact the hebrews probly werent in the desert for 40 years. its all a metaphor meant to get a message across not to teach history. there was no adam and eve. in fact if you actually read genesis there are TWO different and contradictory creation stories. however both stories get across the point that... God is one, God loves man, God does no0t want man to be alone, etc. in a way it can be related to the stories of greek mythology. in fact much of the bible that many people take literally is in fact a myth legend or parable. I am a catholic and go to catholic school. Catholics interpret the bible contextually, meaning we read between the lines. and in my opion this is how the bible is meant to be read. well that was was tought ot me this year in freshman scripture class. just thought i should clear things up. there was no tower or babylon, no noahs ark, no adam and eve, there was no Job. all these were created by ancient scribes during the babylonian exile to tell the hebrews about God. thats what i have been taught and just though all you should know
Well I think certain things in the bible are not to be taken literally and some things are. How do we know which verses? God will steer you in the right area. I was wondering about Catholics and about the Pope, why do Catholics call the Pope "The Holy father"? The bible states not to call anyone a holy father except God.
Well I think certain things in the bible are not to be taken literally and some things are. How do we know which verses?
Ahhh that's easy, everything in the bible is to be taken literally until science disproves it, then it becomes metaphorical.
Well theman19, the problem with that interpretation is that we are left to believe that our human condition is just as it is because God will's it to be and he wants nothing better for our lives down here. If there was no literal fall in the Garden of Eden, then why is humanity like this? Why do we have to go through so much if there was no fall? Why didn't God just make everything perfect from the start instead of putting us here with a book that's full of nothing but lies? The answer? The Bible IS to be taken literally. There was a fall, there is a devil (and believe me I can attest to this), there was a Jesus, there was a cross, all of that is to be taken literally. Things like beasts coming up out of the sea in Revelation represent something, that is not to be taken literally. But a very good majority of the Bible is to be taken literally. Job really went through all of what he went through, even though he did no sin. Noah really preached to people to repent and turn from their wicked ways before the flood came, and the Israelites really rebelled against God as many times as the Bible says they did.
theman19
02-16-2006, 03:02
i just wanted to clear some speculation. the bible is not meant to be proven because it is not factual. ancient writers did NOT focus on telling history. its just not what they did. they focused on trying to get the message of god to all the people. often time numbers were exaggerated, locations mixed up. in fact the hebrews probly werent in the desert for 40 years. its all a metaphor meant to get a message across not to teach history. there was no adam and eve. in fact if you actually read genesis there are TWO different and contradictory creation stories. however both stories get across the point that... God is one, God loves man, God does no0t want man to be alone, etc. in a way it can be related to the stories of greek mythology. in fact much of the bible that many people take literally is in fact a myth legend or parable. I am a catholic and go to catholic school. Catholics interpret the bible contextually, meaning we read between the lines. and in my opion this is how the bible is meant to be read. well that was was tought ot me this year in freshman scripture class. just thought i should clear things up. there was no tower or babylon, no noahs ark, no adam and eve, there was no Job. all these were created by ancient scribes during the babylonian exile to tell the hebrews about God. thats what i have been taught and just though all you should know
Well I think certain things in the bible are not to be taken literally and some things are. How do we know which verses? God will steer you in the right area. I was wondering about Catholics and about the Pope, why do Catholics call the Pope "The Holy father"? The bible states not to call anyone a holy father except God.
to my understanding the pope is just the leader of the church and all of how its run. but you have to remeber we call out priests father. i ve never really thought ouf it though. i guess you may be right. im sure we have an excuse but i just dont know it. and what i was really trying to get a crtoss is people should stop trying to historicalloy prove the bible and just get the mesage because that what ancient writers wrote it for. i didt want to cause a rucus. thats how i, and the catholics, take the bible. we read it contextually. dont get me wrong you cant just make any message from what your reading. THAT would not be right. also dont think that i think that EVERYTHING is made up there are some very important factual and provable information.
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 04:19
Well I think certain things in the bible are not to be taken literally and some things are. How do we know which verses?
Ahhh that's easy, everything in the bible is to be taken literally until science disproves it, then it becomes metaphorical.
i like to see how far science takes you in the end :wink:
tell me what has science disproved? (in terms of the God/Bible)
hoverbike
02-16-2006, 04:32
to my understanding the pope is just the leader of the church and all of how its run. but you have to remeber we call out priests father. i ve never really thought ouf it though. i guess you may be right. im sure we have an excuse but i just dont know it.
Well that's the thing, I don't know why. However, some people even think that calling anyone "father" is not right but we call our dads "father" often or not. I know the Pope is the leader of the Catholic church.
Ahhh that's easy, everything in the bible is to be taken literally until science disproves it, then it becomes metaphorical.
I know that God can do anything so the noah flood thing was God's work and not normal life and nature. However then we come back to the point of trying to prove that and it never ending cycle of debate. It's almost impossible to debate on it.
Mastur Debater
02-16-2006, 04:39
I just have one question.
If God created the universe, who created God?
Mael Duin
02-16-2006, 05:28
I have hard time to believe that anything, which is alive and thinks, can be eternal. And I have even more hard time to believe that there is something with perfect mind (which is, btw, impossible to have, because this whole think is just one big opinion). Didn't God have regrets about the Flood? What I remember, after the Flood God made a promise that he/she/it won't never do anything to Earth, because he/she/it could do another flood and have regrets about it too. This is from the Bible and to me clearly proves that God ISN'T PERFECT. And no, I do not accept any "God goes against any logics and rules". Yes, God could change gravity etc. but God can't be perfect in every humans eyes unless God brainwashes us.
See that's the thing, Mastur Debater. We are human and we cannot grasp eternity. Just try and think about it for a second, you can't grasp it can you, but God can because he is eternal.
Mael Duin
02-16-2006, 05:47
Well yeah, it's just my thinking then again. I just do not believe that there can be eternal beings which has perfect minds with perfect powers and which can be sane for eternity. If there is some uberpowerful being, I believe that it makes mistakes, just not as often as humans and other lifeforms.
And BTW, about Garden of Eden (before I continue, in the part when I still believed in God, I didn't like the idea of Garden of Eden. Explanation coming soon). While I do sometimes dream about the place or situation where I have all videogames, alot of food, perfect health etc. I do not like to live in Garden of Eden forever. Actually, I would suffer later on there. To me, only thing which can free me from eternal boredom is forgetting everything. Just a thought which I have about GoE :wink:
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 05:53
I have hard time to believe that anything, which is alive and thinks, can be eternal. And I have even more hard time to believe that there is something with perfect mind (which is, btw, impossible to have, because this whole think is just one big opinion). Didn't God have regrets about the Flood? What I remember, after the Flood God made a promise that he/she/it won't never do anything to Earth, because he/she/it could do another flood and have regrets about it too. This is from the Bible and to me clearly proves that God ISN'T PERFECT. And no, I do not accept any "God goes against any logics and rules". Yes, God could change gravity etc. but God can't be perfect in every humans eyes unless God brainwashes us.
that proves absolutely NOTHING. just because god felt sorry about something he did, does not mean he isnt perfect. all it means is he felt sorry............................period. he never said he made a mistake
i dont know how you came to that conclusion but its totally false
Mael Duin
02-16-2006, 06:28
that proves absolutely NOTHING. just because god felt sorry about something he did, does not mean he isnt perfect. all it means is he felt sorry............................period. he never said he made a mistake
Then why to make the promise that God won't do anything to the Earth anymore, if nothing happened? To me that just shows that he had regrets from what he/she/it did and doesn't want to make the same mistake twice.
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 06:49
that proves absolutely NOTHING. just because god felt sorry about something he did, does not mean he isnt perfect. all it means is he felt sorry............................period. he never said he made a mistake
Then why to make the promise that God won't do anything to the Earth anymore, if nothing happened? To me that just shows that he had regrets from what he/she/it did and doesn't want to make the same mistake twice.
uh who said nothing happened. obviously something happened, he flooded the earth. he never once said that he made a mistake, he just said he was sorry.
having regrets still doesnt mean he made a mistake. if you regret something, it doesnt mean it was wrong or a mistake.
The law of conversation of mass was thought up by human beings. human beings are not perfect, so they can be wrongEr ... you do know the bible (the cornerstone of christianity) was written by humans? Surely by your own argument "humans can be wrong" therefore the bible can be wrong?
Yet you refuse to belive something with scientific evidence on the basis that "humans can be wrong" but you'll believe firmly in a book based on speculation and forget the whole "humans can be wrong" aspect?
I believe the Bible should be taken literally. Did you know that there is proof of a Sodom and Gemorrah? We found it through salt transactions and when we found the ruins they appeared to be burnt like the Bible had said. You do also know that higher than average radiotion levels in the area were reminiscent of atom bomb traces?
You do also know that Jesus could not possible have been born in December (the "shepherds tending their flock" is one example, december is the rainy season, they would not be out tending their flocks at that time, they would be in their barns, all the evidence leans towards somewhere around April), his "birthdate" was changed in order to conflict with a Roman festival.
And you want to believe in the bible? Great, here's some "moral lessons:
1) Women are nothing, lower than low. They cannot think for themselves, they should not teach, they shuold be completely subservient to their husbands, they are worth less (in moneetary terms) than men and if a woman as married of enganged when she is raped she shld be killed. Evidence? Here, with biblical extracts:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0301/answers.html
2) How about god asking us to eat human and animal excrement? All expressly ordered here:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0505/answers.html
etc etc etc.
Hey Scythe.. I'm gonna have to intervene and advise you to calm down man.
I belive in God and I always will :)
tell me what has science disproved? (in terms of the God/Bible)
helloooooo!!!
Earth's age is 4 billion years
The Sun created before the earth
There was never a global flood
You cant sustain a species with incest
And many many many other things.
I know that God can do anything so the noah flood thing was God's work and not normal life and nature.
and then after the flood he erased every evidence that this flood existed? why?
Mael Duin
02-16-2006, 10:36
This is little offtopic but I have always been interested on these famous angels (Gabriel, Mekatron etc.) but I don't remember Bible saying anything about them. How people got to know about these? And oh yeah, which angel is the "highest" now? Because Lucifer left so...o_O
tell me what has science disproved? (in terms of the God/Bible)
helloooooo!!!
Earth's age is 4 billion years
The Sun created before the earth
There was never a global flood
You cant sustain a species with incest
And many many many other things.
Wrong: Sience is every year closer to determine the "Big Bang" time, but they cant find THE exact moment.
tell me what has science disproved? (in terms of the God/Bible)
helloooooo!!!
Earth's age is 4 billion years
The Sun created before the earth
There was never a global flood
You cant sustain a species with incest
And many many many other things.
Wrong: Sience is every year closer to determine the "Big Bang" time, but they cant find THE exact moment.
what this has to do with all the above i just wrote?
webby111
02-16-2006, 11:12
Not really but im open to beleive.
tell me what has science disproved? (in terms of the God/Bible)
helloooooo!!!
Earth's age is 4 billion years
The Sun created before the earth
There was never a global flood
You cant sustain a species with incest
And many many many other things.
Wrong: Sience is every year closer to determine the "Big Bang" time, but they cant find THE exact moment.
what this has to do with all the above i just wrote?
There's a lot in the Bible that sience can't explain, like Earth age, as you said :)
There's a lot in the Bible that sience can't explain, like Earth age, as you said :)
The science knows the earth's age, unlike the bible.
There's a lot in the Bible that sience can't explain, like Earth age, as you said :)
The science knows the earth's age, unlike the bible.
Unfortunately that age is wrong ;)
There's a lot in the Bible that sience can't explain, like Earth age, as you said :)
The science knows the earth's age, unlike the bible.
Unfortunately that age is wrong ;)
Ok then , tell us the REAL age of the earth then, and according to whom
I don't know that. What I know for sure is that the Big Bang time is not exact :)
I don't know that. What I know for sure is that the Big Bang time is not exact :)
Ohhhh that's really makes sense now
Right before your post i was firmly believed that i was 32 years old, but with no exact date for the big bang, i might as well be 30, or 35, or 15 it really depends on the big bang date, so i don't know my age, and neither do you.
I don't know that. What I know for sure is that the Big Bang time is not exact :)
Ohhhh that's really makes sense now
Right before your post i was firmly believed that i was 32 years old, but with no exact date for the big bang, i might as well be 30, or 35, or 15 it really depends on the big bang date, so i don't know my age, and neither do you.
That's nonsense: you know when you're born and the Big Bang Time doesn't affect this, because you're born after it. Your age depend on your birthday (wich, I think, you know). The same could be said for Earth: do you really know when Earth was "born"?
That's nonsense: you know when you're born and the Big Bang Time doesn't affect this, because you're born after it. Your age depend on your birthday (wich, I think, you know). The same could be said for Earth: do you really know when Earth was "born"?
YES WE KNOW
and it was aproximately 8 billion years AFTER the big bang, read here how we know the age of the earth http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
That's nonsense: you know when you're born and the Big Bang Time doesn't affect this, because you're born after it. Your age depend on your birthday (wich, I think, you know). The same could be said for Earth: do you really know when Earth was "born"?
YES WE KNOW
and it was aproximately 8 billion years AFTER the big bang, read here how we know the age of the earth http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
Hey mate, you say that ;)
Fallout Boy
02-16-2006, 12:24
I don't know that. What I know for sure is that the Big Bang time is not exact :)
Ohhhh that's really makes sense now
Right before your post i was firmly believed that i was 32 years old, but with no exact date for the big bang, i might as well be 30, or 35, or 15 it really depends on the big bang date, so i don't know my age, and neither do you.
The big bang has nothing to do with when you were born, your age is counted by how many times you have revolved around the sun.
I've always wondered why the bible doesnt mention dinosaurs.
Largest animals that ever lived. Gigantic hulking brutes, vicious predators etc etc ... yet they were never "noticed" enough to mention in the bible ... odd that.
Shrinnan
02-16-2006, 12:52
I believe the Bible should be taken literally. Did you know that there is proof of a Sodom and Gemorrah? We found it through salt transactions and when we found the ruins they appeared to be burnt like the Bible had said. You do also know that higher than average radiotion levels in the area were reminiscent of atom bomb traces?
You do also know that Jesus could not possible have been born in December (the "shepherds tending their flock" is one example, december is the rainy season, they would not be out tending their flocks at that time, they would be in their barns, all the evidence leans towards somewhere around April), his "birthdate" was changed in order to conflict with a Roman festival.
And you want to believe in the bible? Great, here's some "moral lessons:
1) Women are nothing, lower than low. They cannot think for themselves, they should not teach, they shuold be completely subservient to their husbands, they are worth less (in moneetary terms) than men and if a woman as married of enganged when she is raped she shld be killed. Evidence? Here, with biblical extracts:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0301/answers.html
2) How about god asking us to eat human and animal excrement? All expressly ordered here:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0505/answers.html
etc etc etc.
Yes, I do know that Christmas is not the exact birthdate of J esus, it's just when we celebrate it because we don't know exactly when.
You don't read the Bible so you wouldn't even know, first of all a ton of laws were changed, one being that we are now allowed to eat meat and so on. Also a lot of that stuff was if one was bad and, again, a lot changed (including a lot of the stuff you mentioned) when J esus came.
I'm going to end it with this..
It doesn't matter how many quotes from the Bible you pull up that seem strange to you, if God says it (I believe the Bible is God's Word so what the Bible says is right) than it's right.
I've always wondered why the bible doesnt mention dinosaurs.
Largest animals that ever lived. Gigantic hulking brutes, vicious predators etc etc ... yet they were never "noticed" enough to mention in the bible ... odd that.
That's the thing, it DOES mention dinosaurs, particularly in Job and I think before Noah.
Mael Duin
02-16-2006, 12:56
That's the thing, it DOES mention dinosaurs, particularly in Job and I think before Noah.
Can you paste some...errr, what are those called...quotes? >_>; I just want to see how dinosaurs has been said then.
That's nonsense: you know when you're born and the Big Bang Time doesn't affect this, because you're born after it. Your age depend on your birthday (wich, I think, you know). The same could be said for Earth: do you really know when Earth was "born"?
YES WE KNOW
and it was aproximately 8 billion years AFTER the big bang, read here how we know the age of the earth http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
Hey mate, you say that ;)
whatever, ignorance is bliss
The big bang has nothing to do with when you were born, your age is counted by how many times you have revolved around the sun.
Yes that was my whole point, earth's age has nothing to do with big bang too.
I've always wondered why the bible doesnt mention dinosaurs.
Because the people who wrote the bible didn't knew that dinosaurs existed, in a similar fashion the bible has no mention of Ice Ages, or continental drift.
hoverbike
02-16-2006, 14:28
I've always wondered why the bible doesnt mention dinosaurs.
Largest animals that ever lived. Gigantic hulking brutes, vicious predators etc etc ... yet they were never "noticed" enough to mention in the bible ... odd that.
The Bible did say things about dinosaurs, I don't have the verses right now.
Another thing is God does not make mistakes if anyone believes that. It's false, God is perfect and has never made a mistake.
Here's what the bible says about Dinsaurs
And lo, Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus ... with a splinter in his paw. And O, the disciples did run a-shrieking: "What a big f**king lizard, Lord!" But Jesus was unafraid, and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw, and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O, so many years, inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat f**king families and their fat dollar bills. And O, Scotland did praise the Lord: "Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord."'"
Another thing is God does not make mistakes
Where are the dinosaurs now?
Where are many thousands extinct species now?
If you really believe that god created all animals, you have to explain why many thousand species are extinct, and you can't seriously claim that man hunted them down.
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 15:51
The law of conversation of mass was thought up by human beings. human beings are not perfect, so they can be wrongEr ... you do know the bible (the cornerstone of christianity) was written by humans? Surely by your own argument "humans can be wrong" therefore the bible can be wrong?
Yet you refuse to belive something with scientific evidence on the basis that "humans can be wrong" but you'll believe firmly in a book based on speculation and forget the whole "humans can be wrong" aspect?
that really shows how much you know. god spoke to/through these people that wrote the Bible.
that really shows how much you know. god spoke to/through these people that wrote the Bible.
Payback time
How do you know? you were there? they claim that god spoken to them, so they maybe lying.
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 16:06
sorry for the double post :wink:
Earth's age is 4 billion years
i dont remember what the bible says so i can really debate that.
The Sun created before the earth
the only way to prove that is if you were a witness. i know there are methods to determine this but you still dont know if its truly right, because they werent there.
There was never a global flood
when have they disproved that? the answer is never
You cant sustain a species with incest
god never said that adam and eve were the only ones on earth at that time. he just said those were the first ones he created, whos to say that he didnt go and create somebody else right after that. the bible only talks about the important people. (correct me if im wrong)
hoverbike
02-16-2006, 16:15
Another thing is God does not make mistakes
Where are the dinosaurs now?
Where are many thousands extinct species now?
If you really believe that god created all animals, you have to explain why many thousand species are extinct, and you can't seriously claim that man hunted them down.
There are still dinosaurs on the earth right now but very few. They are mostly in Africa where not very many people explore. Alot of them died for a unknown reason but the great Flood changed the weather and temp of the earth so that could be the reason. Extinct species are gone so what's your point on that? God made them and now certain kinds of animals are dead, so what?
that really shows how much you know. god spoke to/through these people that wrote the Bible.
That's rubbish, it's just people's opinion on Jesus written over 100 years after he supposedly died. One of the people who wrote a testament even copied another, word for word in some places, but put a spin on it that made Jesus seem more divine. They aren't exactly as gospel as they'd like to be thats for sure.
Some of the old testament (until exodus) is just different tribes opinions on Jehovah (god). How can God tell people different things and say they are all right?
Another thing is God does not make mistakes
Where are the dinosaurs now?
Where are many thousands extinct species now?
If you really believe that god created all animals, you have to explain why many thousand species are extinct, and you can't seriously claim that man hunted them down.
There are still dinosaurs on the earth right now but very few. They are mostly in Africa where not very many people explore.
No they're on a pacific island, covered with fog all the seasons, along with king kong.
Seriously though, you expect me to believe that there are dinosaurs, but we don't have evidence of their existance?
Extinct species are gone so what's your point on that? God made them and now certain kinds of animals are dead, so what?
What's the point for god to create thousands of species, and then destroy them?
We have no way of discerning whether the people who write the bible were visited by god, this however does not mean that it is the truth. There were religion other than christianity before it came about.
Christianity was founded by Jesus Christ approximately 1,971 (33CE) years ago.
As for Buddhism, it was founded by an Indian Prince Siddhartha Gautama in approximately 566BCE (Before Common Era), about 2500 years ago.
In fact, the oldest of the four main religions is Hinduism. Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots in Dravidianism. Dravidianism was estimated to have been practised around 6000 to 3000BCE and as such predates Sumerian, Egyptian and Babylonian cultures.
There are probably much older religions than those three as well. In fact some religions go back to 3500BCE.
Sumer (or Shumer, Egyptian Sangar, Bib. Shinar, native ki-en-gir) formed the southern part of Mesopotamia (modern southeastern Iraq) from the time of settlement by the Sumerians until the time of Babylonia. The oldest tablets thus far discovered containing Sumerian pre-cuneiform script date to around 3500 BC.
So why should Christianity be accepted as the one true faith? It is not the oldest as i have just shown you. Many religions were here even before Jesus Christ came to earth. So why aren't they still around? It's not because people forgot about them. They are in fact still around today just in different forms. Absorbed into new religions with different names.
Culture is a rapidly changing environment. With the advance of technology new clothing came sprouting new colours and ideas. If someone from today showed someone from medieval times a spotlight they would probably burn him at the stake. This is because with the advance of culture and society the ideals of people also change. Christianity was once filled with murder and bloodshed but is now a relatively peaceful religion. When the bubonic plague occurred they believed that utter belief in the lord would save them from it. Some went as far as to whip themselves continuously to drive away evil spirits. We know today that it was just a large epidemic caused by disease infected vermin.
Religion like society is evolving continuously and i am sure that in the future several more religions will have popped into existence. The question is do we believe in god because he is there or is god there because we believe in him.
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 19:56
What's the point for god to create thousands of species, and then destroy them?
where did you get the idea that God specifically destroyed them.
you know there are such things as natural events. just because some animals become extinct doesnt necessarily mean its an act of God
Hoverbike, where did you hear that there are still dinosaurs around. Im not disagreeing with you, I just want more information on this. im very interested :D
Earth's age is 4 billion years
i dont remember what the bible says so i can really debate that.
from 6,328 to 6,574 years old
http://home1.gte.net/bridavis/timeline.htm
The Sun created before the earth
the only way to prove that is if you were a witness. i know there are methods to determine this but you still dont know if its truly right, because they werent there.
x^2+y^2=Z^2
That also must be wrong right? because you can't check every single number
There was never a global flood
when have they disproved that? the answer is never
A global flood would have produce evidence contrary to the evidence we see.
How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood?
Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up?
Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction, and (n) other characters. Why do none of these show up?
Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Tree ring records go back more than 10,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time.
You cant sustain a species with incest
god never said that adam and eve were the only ones on earth at that time. he just said those were the first ones he created, whos to say that he didnt go and create somebody else right after that. the bible only talks about the important people. (correct me if im wrong)
Have you actually read the bible?
where did you get the idea that God specifically destroyed them.
you know there are such things as natural events. just because some animals become extinct doesnt necessarily mean its an act of God
Yes that makes perfect sense, god created some animals, and then after 3 billion years and a few mass extictions he desided that it was time to create man. :D
But damn, here is another problem for you, there isn't a single animal on earth now, that existed 3 billion years ago.
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 20:05
Have you actually read the bible?
uh yea i have read the Bible. If i hadent, i would be in here debating about God/Bible.
I dont recall the Bible saying adam and eve were the only people there at the time. All it said was that they were the first people made. Like i said, the Bible only speaks about people who played an important role. So he could have made more people but it just wasnt mentioned.
Yes that makes perfect sense, god created some animals, and then after 3 billion years and a few mass extictions he desided that it was time to create man.
But damn, here is another problem for you, there isn't a single animal on earth now, that existed 3 billion years ago
how does that not make sense. he created animals, they died off, and then he created humans, i dont see what your trying to prove.
again i fail to see how this proves anything. what does there being know animals today that existed 3 billion years ago have to do with anything. please explain your self better.
there was a movie that came out back in the 90's that gave a whole bunch of proof/evidence that a flood did occur.
Dead_EyeRO720
02-16-2006, 20:14
No they're on a pacific island, covered with fog all the seasons, along with king kong.
Seriously though, you expect me to believe that there are dinosaurs, but we don't have evidence of their existance?
Actually, there was a thing on the History Channel about what he was talking about in Africa. I remember watching it and thought it was interesting that all sorts of different people all claimed to see what appeared to be descendants of sauropods (the long-necked ones), even though the eyewitnesses had never heard of dinosaurs before. I'm not saying it is either true or false seeing that I don't know, but that theory does actually exist.
I dont recall the Bible saying adam and eve were the only people there at the time. All it said was that they were the first people made. Like i said, the Bible only speaks about people who played an important role. So he could have made more people but it just wasnt mentioned.
Yeah spin it all you like, but with no proof you're not geting anywhere.
Yes that makes perfect sense, god created some animals, and then after 3 billion years and a few mass extictions he desided that it was time to create man.
But damn, here is another problem for you, there isn't a single animal on earth now, that existed 3 billion years ago
how does that not make sense. he created animals, they died off, and then he created humans, i dont see what your trying to prove.
again i fail to see how this proves anything. what does there being know animals today that existed 3 billion years ago have to do with anything. please explain your self better.
Do you realise that just this moment you accepted Evolution?
there was a movie that came out back in the 90's that gave a whole bunch of proof/evidence that a flood did occur.
Ahhhh yes, you're talking about the Jammal's Hoax
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax/jammal.html
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 20:49
Ahhhh yes, you're talking about the Jammal's Hoax
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax/jammal.html
Uh no, that’s not what im talking about. I will try to pull up the video I was speaking of
Yeah spin it all you like, but with no proof you're not geting anywhere.
How am I spinning anything. How is it wrong to think that there may have been other people on the earth besides adam and eve. Is it not true that the Bible only talks about important figures, that played a role?
Do you realise that just this moment you accepted Evolution?
Explain to me how I accepted evolution. Im totally oblivious
Shrinnan
02-16-2006, 21:05
That's the thing, it DOES mention dinosaurs, particularly in Job and I think before Noah.
Can you paste some...errr, what are those called...quotes? >_>; I just want to see how dinosaurs has been said then.
I found this site that gives you three-four quotes from the Bible about dinosaurs, remember they won't use the term "dinosaur" because they weren't called that back then.
Here it is:
http://www.missiontoamerica.com/genesis/dinosaurs-in-the-bible.html
Here's a part from that link:
Here's a detailed description from Job 40:15-19
"Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. He is chief of the ways of God."
What is behemoth? This is the largest (chief) land animal God made. Some have said behemoth is an elephant or hippopotomus. But both of those have small tails, not a tail that moves like a cedar tree.
The problem is that we limit ourselves to animals that are alive today, and none of those fit this description. What fits the description is a Brachiosaurus--the largest of the dinosaurs. A dinosaur with a giant tail that was like a cedar, and huge legs that must have had the strength of brass and iron in order to support his enormous body. Brachiosaurus was 75 feet in length, 41 feet in height, and weighed 89 tons--as much as 12 African bull elphants. This was a true behemoth!
There were some other verses too, Job also speaks of a "Leviathan."
As for dinosaurs being extinct, we believe that the flood was the one that did it, even though they were on the Arc the atmosphere greatly changed because of the canopy of water around the Earth that was used for the water for the flood, the dinosuars could no longer live in the newly created atmosphere.
Tribunal
02-16-2006, 21:17
No, I'm a science boy. And to me suggestions like "this" are laughable. And my mom hates me for it. (not really but its the best way to describe it)
Ahhhh yes, you're talking about the Jammal's Hoax
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax/jammal.html
Uh no, that’s not what im talking about. I will try to pull up the video I was speaking of
Ok i'm waiting
Yeah spin it all you like, but with no proof you're not geting anywhere.
How am I spinning anything. How is it wrong to think that there may have been other people on the earth besides adam and eve. Is it not true that the Bible only talks about important figures, that played a role?
Because the Adam & Eve model, dosen't cover you, as the source of all humans (because that would imply incest) you just created some more humans just to fit your model, that's the definition of spining.
Do you realise that just this moment you accepted Evolution?
Explain to me how I accepted evolution. Im totally oblivious
Because i've set the trap for you, and you just fell into it :D
I Said:
What's the point for god to create thousands of species, and then destroy them?
You replied:
where did you get the idea that God specifically destroyed them.
you know there are such things as natural events. just because some animals become extinct doesnt necessarily mean its an act of God
so the first step was made, you admited that some natural events can destroy species, then...
I Said:
Yes that makes perfect sense, god created some animals, and then after 3 billion years and a few mass extictions he desided that it was time to create man.
But damn, here is another problem for you, there isn't a single animal on earth now, that existed 3 billion years ago.
And you replied:
how does that not make sense. he created animals, they died off, and then he created humans, i dont see what your trying to prove.
again i fail to see how this proves anything. what does there being know animals today that existed 3 billion years ago have to do with anything.
So the second step was made, now you've admited that new species can evolve without any interferience by god.
The conclusion is, that if god didn't create the mass exctinctions, and new species have emerged after that event, that's what we call evolution.
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 21:23
So the second step was made, now you've admited that new species can evolve without any interferience by god.
your putting words in my mouth, i never said that.
you said there are no animals around that existed 3 billion years, and thats true. i never said that new species can evolve without any interferience of God. all i said is there are such things called natural events PERIOD so please stop putting words in my mouth
The conclusion is, that if god didn't create the mass exctinctions, and new species have emerged after that event, that's what we call evolution.
how do you know that God didnt create new animals after that event???
hoverbike
02-16-2006, 21:58
Another thing is God does not make mistakes
Where are the dinosaurs now?
Where are many thousands extinct species now?
If you really believe that god created all animals, you have to explain why many thousand species are extinct, and you can't seriously claim that man hunted them down.
There are still dinosaurs on the earth right now but very few. They are mostly in Africa where not very many people explore.
No they're on a pacific island, covered with fog all the seasons, along with king kong.
Seriously though, you expect me to believe that there are dinosaurs, but we don't have evidence of their existance?
Extinct species are gone so what's your point on that? God made them and now certain kinds of animals are dead, so what?
What's the point for god to create thousands of species, and then destroy them?
So you don't believe that there are still dinosaurs on this earth? Even though there are many eye-witness accounts and even pictures of them?
Shrinnan
02-16-2006, 22:02
Another thing is God does not make mistakes
Where are the dinosaurs now?
Where are many thousands extinct species now?
If you really believe that god created all animals, you have to explain why many thousand species are extinct, and you can't seriously claim that man hunted them down.
There are still dinosaurs on the earth right now but very few. They are mostly in Africa where not very many people explore.
No they're on a pacific island, covered with fog all the seasons, along with king kong.
Seriously though, you expect me to believe that there are dinosaurs, but we don't have evidence of their existance?
Extinct species are gone so what's your point on that? God made them and now certain kinds of animals are dead, so what?
What's the point for god to create thousands of species, and then destroy them?
So you don't believe that there are still dinosaurs on this earth? Even though there are many eye-witness accounts and even pictures of them?
Just to add to that (even though it's not totally relevant to that particular discussion), did you also know that there are eye witness accounts (and reports) that people have been swallowed up by fish for days only to be spit up on land somewhere, just like Jonah (I just remember people saying how it was impossible)?
your putting words in my mouth, i never said that.
you said there are no animals around that existed 3 billion years, and thats true. i never said that new species can evolve without any interferience of God. all i said is there are such things called natural events PERIOD so please stop putting words in my mouth
so when an extinction happens it a "natural event", when evolution happens, its "devine intervention"
The conclusion is, that if god didn't create the mass exctinctions, and new species have emerged after that event, that's what we call evolution.
how do you know that God didnt create new animals after that event???
Here is your problems with that theory of yours,
If god is perfect, and makes no mistakes, then why after each mass extinction created different animals? what was wrong with the first ones? why he just didn't re-create the original ones?
Why he created 2 human species?
Why new animal species emerged AFTER man was on earth?
So you don't believe that there are still dinosaurs on this earth? Even though there are many eye-witness accounts and even pictures of them?
No i don't , also i don't believe in the monster of loch ness, the barefoot, the snowman, and UFO's, and btw where are those pictures?
here is a question:
where do you believe you will go after life?
Shrinnan
02-16-2006, 22:14
If god is perfect, and makes no mistakes, then why after each mass extinction created different animals? what was wrong with the first ones? why he just didn't re-create the original ones?
Well, first of all I don't believe the world is 4.6 billion years old (I bet you thought that I knew nothing of evolution (thus I'd make an "ignorant" decision based on what I have been taught), I do know about it, other terms would include "common ancester," "homologous and analogous structures," "species," and "spontaneous generation" (which is disproven in scientific terms)) but I just wanted to answer your question. A lot of times God does stuff like this to teach us a lesson and I'd also like to ask you this question...
Are you perfect?
If not, how do you know what perfect is? The answer?
You don't because you, yourself are not perfect and thus you couldn't dictate what is or isn't perfect (I know you're going to use this same thing against me but first of all, it's by Faith I'm saved (so I believe J esus and God are perfect)), you may, however, assume what you think is perfect though it probably isn't what is perfect (a lot of times a "perfect" decision may not seem so perfect when it's made).
If god is perfect, and makes no mistakes, then why after each mass extinction created different animals? what was wrong with the first ones? why he just didn't re-create the original ones?
Well, first of all I don't believe the world is 4.6 billion years old
yeah yeah its only 6000 years old :roll:
Are you perfect?
If not, how do you know what perfect is? The answer?
You don't because you, yourself are not perfect and thus you couldn't dictate what is or isn't perfect (I know you're going to use this same thing against me
no no no , i'm not going to make it that easy, even if i couldn't know what is perfect (but I do) i know what is not perfect, so you can't call perfect someone who makes mistakes, so the question still stands.
why after each mass extinction created different animals? what was wrong with the first ones? why he just didn't re-create the original ones?
here is a question:
where do you believe you will go after life?
Nowhere, i'll just rot
Shrinnan
02-16-2006, 22:41
yeah yeah its only 6000 years old :roll:
Glad to see you now agree with me! HAHAHA!
why after each mass extinction created different animals? what was wrong with the first ones? why he just didn't re-create the original ones?
Well, like I said, God does stuff like this to teach us a lesson. Anyway, who says that was a mistake? I don't even believe He recreated animals anyway so I don't know why I'm arguing with you...
Also, people and animals die because of death being unleashed upon the world after Adam and Eve sinned, not because God decided it.
there is no point to argue with you, you just discard every single scientific evidence, so we have no common ground to argue.
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 22:52
1.so when an extinction happens it a "natural event", when evolution happens, its "devine intervention"
no, you cant just categorize it like that.
2.Here is your problems with that theory of yours,
If god is perfect, and makes no mistakes, then why after each mass extinction created different animals? what was wrong with the first ones? why he just didn't re-create the original ones?
Why he created 2 human species?
Why new animal species emerged AFTER man was on earth?
You just don’t get it do you. There was nothing wrong with his first “inventions”; God doesn’t make things so they can live forever. I don’t believe that event was cause by a divine intervention, I believe it was a natural event
Why he created 2 human species? Do you mean men and women? If so, obviously he made two different human species so they can reproduce and bore children. The main reason is because Adam was lonely and he needed a companion.
Why new animal species emerged AFTER man was on earth? Well that’s easy to answer. GOD CREATED THEM.
1.so when an extinction happens it a "natural event", when evolution happens, its "devine intervention"
no, you cant just categorize it like that.
why?
You just don’t get it do you. There was nothing wrong with his first “inventions”; God doesn’t make things so they can live forever. I don’t believe that event was cause by a divine intervention, I believe it was a natural event
You still avoiding to answer the question, there was NEW species after each mass extinction, so i'll paraphrase the genesis, in hope that you'll finaly get it.
And god created every animal in sea, air and land, and god saw this, and it was good.
And then a meteor started to travel towards the earth, and god saw this, and it was bad, but then he said, what the heck, let it fall
And the meteor fell , and killed most of god's animals, and god saw this , and he was sad.
So god started again to create the animals, but the has lost the original blueprints, and that made him mad, but then he said, screw that, i'll make better ones.
And god created every animal in sea, air and land, and god saw this, and it was good.
And then the volcanos of the earth started to errupt, and god saw this, and it was really bad.
And the volcanos started to pour lava and poison, and most animals died again, and god saw this, and said, holy crap not again!.
And got decided to start all over again, and gone to take the new blueprints, but they were burned in the lava, so god was really mad this time, so he took the surviving animals and with some modification he made new plans.
And god created every animal in sea, air and land, and god saw this, and it was good.
But then the earth started to freeze over, and god screamed, nnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
And the earth froze over, and most animals died , and god was a reck, he started looking for the last plans, but the surviving animals have eaten them, nad god was really angry.
So god said, enough with this BS, and god created some single cell organisms, and throw them into the sea, and god saw this, and it was pathetic.
And god called the cells, evolution, and then he left earth never to be seen again.
narutoboy
02-16-2006, 23:43
when did i ever say there wasnt new species after the mass extinction
Ive stated in a previous post that god may have made new species after the mass extinction. so what are you talking about, I dont deny that there was new species after that
hoverbike
02-17-2006, 01:02
So you don't believe that there are still dinosaurs on this earth? Even though there are many eye-witness accounts and even pictures of them?
No i don't , also i don't believe in the monster of loch ness, the barefoot, the snowman, and UFO's, and btw where are those pictures?
The pictures are on the Internet but There are many posted in a topic not too long ago. I'll get the link.
Hoverbike you should learn that the internet isn't a very good source of informations for those kinds of things. Because almost every picture of supposed rare creatures are faked. Now i'm not saying that what you are saying can't be true. It is possible that creatures from the prehistoric era survived the mass extinction, however most of them we already know about. Crocodiles, Turtles and Sharks just to name a few which have evolved from that era.
hoverbike
02-17-2006, 02:36
Hoverbike you should learn that the internet isn't a very good source of informations for those kinds of things. Because almost every picture of supposed rare creatures are faked. Now i'm not saying that what you are saying can't be true. It is possible that creatures from the prehistoric era survived the mass extinction, however most of them we already know about. Crocodiles, Turtles and Sharks just to name a few which have evolved from that era.
Well it's widely known that some dinosaurs are still alive and I'm not talking about Turtles or Crocodiles or anything like that. Were talking the real deal here!
http://ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=15055
Look in this topic at the pics. See dead ones and people there holding them up. Some of those pics would be near impossible to photoshop.
narutoboy
02-17-2006, 03:19
http://home.sprynet.com/~eastwood01/qbible.htm
http://home.sprynet.com/~eastwood01/qflood.htm
those are some great links for you non believers and evolutionist. its basically FAQ.
Shrinnan
02-17-2006, 03:32
http://home.sprynet.com/~eastwood01/qbible.htm
http://home.sprynet.com/~eastwood01/qflood.htm
those are some great links for you non believers and evolutionist. its basically FAQ.
This was from the first link...
Q: Is there any scientific explanation for the opening of the Red Sea and Moses leading the children of Israel across the bottom?
A: I don’t know of any scientific explanation at all, I would say it had to be a miracle. There is, however, archaeological support for the Biblical account. Archaeologists have been looking in the wrong place for the last 3,000 years for the remains of Pharaoh’s army at the Red Sea crossing. If you look at a map of the north end of the Red Sea you will see that it splits into two branches. The left branch is called the Gulf of Suez and the right branch is called the Gulf of Aqaba: The children of Israel did not cross at the Gulf of Suez. They traveled across the Sinai Peninsula and crossed over at the Gulf of Aqaba, which is also part of the Red Sea
Ron Wyatt, a friend of mine from Nashville, Tennessee (ph. (615) 331-6263), researched the crossing of the Red Sea: He found two stone pillars, one on either side of the Gulf of Aqaba, erected and inscribed by Solomon to commemorate the Red Sea crossing. Across the bottom of the gulf between the two pillars is a path littered with the remains of gold-plated wooden chariots and chariot wheels not attached. God performed a miracle at the Red Sea, and there is evidence of the miracle. Ron has a great video on this topic.
WOW!
narutoboy
02-17-2006, 03:58
so for the non believers, don’t ever say there is no evidence to support claims/events, in the bible. if you would stop being so narrow minded and actually looked hard enough, you could find information that supports it.
Going back to the Noah’s ark thing, I know for a fact they’ve found evidence on the earth that proves it actually occurred. Also there are many accounts of people who have seen the ark on Mt. Ararat (sorry if I spelled it wrong). I was watching a documentary back in the 7th grade, and a man claimed that a piece of wood he had was from the ark. They tested it and the results showed that it was indeed from that time period.
Also, I wasn't spinning anything by coming up with the idea that there were more people on there earth at the same time as Adam and eve. It’s a legitimate idea.
I would like someone to answer my question that I’ve asked about seven times now. All you evolutionist say that nothing could have just always have been there. Yet you contradict yourself by saying that the big bang happened and species came about by slime/ooze. What I’m saying is this, if nothing can just always have been there, then how could all the molten rock and the slime/ooze have existed.
Capo Digi
02-17-2006, 04:19
http://home.sprynet.com/~eastwood01/qbible.htm
http://home.sprynet.com/~eastwood01/qflood.htm
those are some great links for you non believers and evolutionist. its basically FAQ.
"The science of creation"
What a terrifying site!
It tells you straight away.
Fortunately, Evolution is a terrible lie
Fortunately? :roll:
and what's this all about?
Q: Where did the races come from?
One theory says that Adam and Eve were medium-brown, possibly because they were made from the earth. That medium-brown couple produced all the varieties of colors; they might have had 100 children or more with all the colors represented in the first family.
Science?
Who made these theories up?
Another theory says that the first division of colors came when God put a mark upon Cain (Genesis 4:15) after Cain killed Abel. Now the Bible doesn’t say what the mark is, but some have tried to say that Cain became the first black man. Of course, that theory only explains two colors and does not consider the flood bringing the human race back to one family.
A third theory says that Noah cursed Canaan after Noah got drunk (Genesis 9:25), and some people think Canaan became the first black man. I don’t believe this theory because I don’t think any color of people are cursed and it only explains two colors.
The fourth (and I think the best) theory says the races came from the Tower of Babel. Genesis 10:20 says, "These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, in their nations." Perhaps all families, countries, nations, and tongues were created or developed from this event. Maybe the colors were divinely created at that time, or maybe they are just a natural product of a small group of people speaking their own language and marrying back to their own parent stock. Racial traits become more pronounced in a small inbreeding group. The Bible isn’t clear on this subject. These four theories are the only ones that I know. I prefer the Tower of Babel explanation. I know the Bible does say in Acts 17 that all nations are of one blood so there is no reason for anyone to be a racist.
These theories are just people making up any old story, there is nothing at all scientific here.
I could make one up and it would be equally as plausible as these.
It's like a conspiracy against logic.
I'm sorry naru but I find this sort of misinformation quite worrying.
The theory of evolution relies on cold hard study and research to back it up. The scientists in this field would be delighted to find the word god imprinted somewhere in the depths of our DNA, in fact they would love it, they could include in somewhere in the theory and move on armed with a bit more information.
Whereas the site you linked to isn't willing to pay a blind bit of notice to anything that contradicts their theories.
It's cult like, and that's very worrying.
Edit >
Across the bottom of the gulf between the two pillars is a path littered with the remains of gold-plated wooden chariots and chariot wheels not attached. God performed a miracle at the Red Sea, and there is evidence of the miracle.
I'll wager this evidence is as shaky and inconclusive as those UFO vids we see floating around the net.
narutoboy
02-17-2006, 04:25
ok capo digi, i would appreciate it if you responded to my most recent post :)
Capo Digi
02-17-2006, 04:39
I made a post on page five, have a look at that and then tell me what you need answered.
:D
narutoboy
02-17-2006, 04:57
I made a post on page five, have a look at that and then tell me what you need answered.
:D
okay, thanks for referring me back to that.
you didnt really adress how the "stuff" that caused the big bang was just there and you didnt tell how the ooze/slime that "suppodely" created life was just always there. saying the big bang happened basically contradicts everything you've been saying.
Im a little confused though, were you saying that the "interevention" of God occurred when he created the molten rock and all that stuff that caused the big bang. what part were you saying God intervened in?
Capo Digi
02-17-2006, 05:25
I'm not sure what you mean by slime and ooze, do you mean the matter that makes up the universe, planets and stars etc?
Stars and planets formed long after the big bang, the "big bang" basically created helium and hydrogen, this was pulled together by gravity to such a density that stars were born, these stars are responsible for creating just about everything else, in the form of atoms, including everything required to make a human.
About what I said about god intervening to make the "bang" occur, what I mean is, there's no widely accepted theory as to why the "bang" happened, just what happened immediately after.
narutoboy
02-17-2006, 05:49
I'm not sure what you mean by slime and ooze, do you mean the matter that makes up the universe, planets and stars etc?
Stars and planets formed long after the big bang, the "big bang" basically created helium and hydrogen, this was pulled together by gravity to such a density that stars were born, these stars are responsible for creating just about everything else, in the form of atoms, including everything required to make a human.
About what I said about god intervening to make the "bang" occur, what I mean is, there's no widely accepted theory as to why the "bang" happened, just what happened immediately after.
well some people believe that a slime brought about species.
hmmm you got me thinking now. Ist it possible that the big bang happened and God exists? so im thinking, maybe god did cause the big bang to happen. well even if this is true, it still means that god created us. he just used the big bang to do it.
i dont know, im going to have to do some major thinking on this subject.
Hey Narutoboy and Zerogravity … why did you ignore these? I mean there were quotes from you bible, so surely you must follow the laws of god (speaking particularily in terms of the links)? I have often seen people saying things like “but the bible does say this or that, I just can’t find it right now” or “bible happenings have been proved I just cant find the article right now”. Well here are links to the actual bible, chapter and verse … why are you ignoring it?
I believe the Bible should be taken literally. Did you know that there is proof of a Sodom and Gemorrah? We found it through salt transactions and when we found the ruins they appeared to be burnt like the Bible had said. You do also know that higher than average radiotion levels in the area were reminiscent of atom bomb traces?
You do also know that Jesus could not possible have been born in December (the "shepherds tending their flock" is one example, december is the rainy season, they would not be out tending their flocks at that time, they would be in their barns, all the evidence leans towards somewhere around April), his "birthdate" was changed in order to conflict with a Roman festival.
And you want to believe in the bible? Great, here's some "moral lessons:
1) Women are nothing, lower than low. They cannot think for themselves, they should not teach, they shuold be completely subservient to their husbands, they are worth less (in moneetary terms) than men and if a woman as married of enganged when she is raped she shld be killed. Evidence? Here, with biblical extracts:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0301/answers.html
2) How about god asking us to eat human and animal excrement? All expressly ordered here:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0505/answers.html
etc etc etc.
The law of conversation of mass was thought up by human beings. human beings are not perfect, so they can be wrongEr ... you do know the bible (the cornerstone of christianity) was written by humans? Surely by your own argument "humans can be wrong" therefore the bible can be wrong?
Yet you refuse to belive something with scientific evidence on the basis that "humans can be wrong" but you'll believe firmly in a book based on speculation and forget the whole "humans can be wrong" aspect?
that really shows how much you know. god spoke to/through these people that wrote the Bible.
But many times you have claimed that humans are not perfect. In fact you even said humans cannot comprehend the meaning of perfection as they are not perfect. So if god really is a perfect being, how can you expect an imperfect being to accurately convey his perfect message? By your own arguments it’s an impossible task.
Not to mention “god” spoke to these people almost 1900 years ago (not 2000 ad the bible was only compiled after Jesus had died) and all you have is their written word that it was god speaking to them. I can go to any asylum and get hundreds of people to write down what “the voices in their head” are telling them. Does that mean I/they can start a religion? Voices only they can hear are telling them things, surely that must be god?
Not to mention that people in power thought their own “opinions” were the opinion of god. Look in all historical power bases. The royal family of England were considered divine beings, their word the equivalent of god. The Spanish inquisition killed thousands on the basis that “where there is suspicion there must be guilt as god would not make us suspicious without just cause”. Throughout history those in power have considered themselves the portal of divine wisdom. So if they wrote their thought down that would surely become the word of god.
Finally I find it amusing that you seem to respect/revere Bruce Lee enough to include his quotes as your sig. Last I heard he wasn't christian. Surely something from the bible or a pastor would be more appropriate? As a christian you should condemn everything said/done by a non-christion like the bible tells you you should.
Well it's widely known that some dinosaurs are still alive and I'm not talking about Turtles or Crocodiles or anything like that. Were talking the real deal here!
http://ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=15055
Look in this topic at the pics. See dead ones and people there holding them up. Some of those pics would be near impossible to photoshop.
I would have no problem believing that the pictures of the dead dinosaurs are authentic, if they proved it with evidence. Like an autopsy. However findings like these always seem to either just a photo or a body so decomposed that nothing can be gained from it. Im actually a fan of Cryptozoology .
Cryptozoology is the study of animals that are presumed (at least by the researcher) to exist, but for which conclusive proof is missing; the term also includes the study of animals generally considered extinct, but which are still occasionally reported. Those who study or search for such animals are called cryptozoologists, while the hypothetical creatures involved are referred to by some as "cryptids".
And if there are living dinosaurs im afraid that they won't be alive for much longer. Either that or stuck in a cage for the amusment of money hungry people.
I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.
And we are supposed to believe everything in the bible is fact? When last did you see people moving things on faith? I can just imagine it: "Hey, everest doesnt look so great there, I think I want to move it a few miles east, power up the faith ..." or "i think the statue of liberty would look better in LA, let me use my faith to transport it there". There are 2 conclusions, 1: Nobody in the world has any faith no matter what they believe (including you) or 2: it's a load of bollocks.
And don't try and say "it's metaphorical" because then you will have to admit the entire bible is metaphorical. It can't sway from factual to metaphorical at your whim.
hmm: http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BSevenMiraclesExplained58.htm
not to mention it has been proved (talking about the parting of the sea) that under certain weather conditions (eg strong easterly wind) at certain points it can actually blow the water to such level that it is possible to walk across the reef.
Shrinnan
02-17-2006, 12:45
And we are supposed to believe everything in the bible is fact?
The moving mountains with faith verse is a metaphor, also, the other verses you said, particularly the ones where people used to eat dung is now negate when J esus came, again, a lot of laws changed. It's kinda easy to tell what is a parable or metaphor instead of an actual command.
Anyway, if the Bible says it than I believe it so I'm not ignoring it. I believe those laws (except for the ones that are changed) should be followed. What you are doing, however, is bringing verses that have been changed when J esus came and acting like they should be followed (you haven't read the Bible so you're using part of it against us when you don't know what laws are still in act).
You ignored my response to your post (I did respond to your post and told you exactly what I'm telling you now), quit acting like I'm ignoring it if you can't properly respond to it.
http://home.sprynet.com/~eastwood01/qbible.htm
http://home.sprynet.com/~eastwood01/qflood.htm
those are some great links for you non believers and evolutionist. its basically FAQ.Creationism junk
Creationists are actually people who pose themselves as scientists, but they have no relation with science at all, basically the thing goes...
Scientist finds evidence that proves his theory is wrong, then the scientist
a)revise his theory according to the new evidence or
b)discard his theory if the new data contadict this theory fundamentaly
Creationist find evidence that proves his theory is wrong, then the Creationist
a) Discards the data
[quote=St Matthew 17:20]I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.
And we are supposed to believe everything in the bible is fact? When last did you see people moving things on faith? I can just imagine it: "Hey, everest doesnt look so great there, I think I want to move it a few miles east, power up the faith ..." or "i think the statue of liberty would look better in LA, let me use my faith to transport it there". There are 2 conclusions, 1: Nobody in the world has any faith no matter what they believe (including you) or 2: it's a load of bollocks.
And don't try and say "it's metaphorical" because then you will have to admit the entire bible is metaphorical. It can't sway from factual to metaphorical at your whim.
That verse you quoted refers to people who use their faith to get the desires of their heart from God and not the removal of literal mountains as you suggest but rather the obstacles that are present in their life. If you desire something from God, and you pray in the name of J esus, and it is in his will for you to have it, and you stay steadfast in your faith, then you will get the desires of your heart. It may take a little time but as long you continue to believe that he will fulfill your request and continue thanking him for what he has already done and as long as it is in his will then it will come to pass.
The moving mountains with faith verse is a metaphor, also, the other verses you said, particularly the ones where people used to eat dung is now negate when J esus came, again, a lot of laws changed. It's kinda easy to tell what is a parable or metaphor instead of an actual command.
Anyway, if the Bible says it than I believe it so I'm not ignoring it. I believe those laws (except for the ones that are changed) should be followed. What you are doing, however, is bringing verses that have been changed when J esus came and acting like they should be followed (you haven't read the Bible so you're using part of it against us when you don't know what laws are still in act).
You ignored my response to your post (I did respond to your post and told you exactly what I'm telling you now), quit acting like I'm ignoring it if you can't properly respond to it.1) It's Jesus, not J esus. There is no space. Putting a space does not abscond you from blasphemy as the intent is clear
2) To be honest I didn't see your original post which is why I never replied. For some reason when I relogin it doesnt show which threads have new replies so I just go to the latest page.
3) I find it fascinating that some things can be taken as metaphorical yet others are taken as fact as and when necessary, the excuse "you should be able to see when", sorry but thats just not good enough. So YOU choose what is metaphorical and what isnt? Thats just twisting the words for your own benefit. So faith can't move mountains but the red sea can part, people can live in fish, people can come back from the dead, water can turn to wine, etc etc. Sorry but it's just changing your perception to suit your arguments/opinion. This was not part of the parables so why is it suddenly a metaphor? Because you can't explain it away.
4) Not much of your "reply" had much meaning. Lets see...
a) "We don't know when Jesus was born we just celebrate it". Well we do sorta know it would have been in the summer months, NOT december, and we do know the roman festival used to occur at that time therefore the birthdate must have been moved. Not to mention he is supposed to be "the son of god" and yet nobody bothered to accurately note his birth date? That's a bit odd isn't it?
b) Another of your "I know it mentions xxx" and "I know yyy has been proved" but then you put in the age old "I just don't know where." Well if you want to argue it find out where and provide the evidence. I know people live on Mars, i've seen proof, I just don't know where. See how believable that is?
5) Who are you to claim I haven't read the bible? You think christians are the only people who read the bible? In fact I doubt you have read the bible because I seem to be able to find the chapters that facilitate my arguments yet you can't. In "judging me" as a christian you are damned to hell because only god can judge. If I were you i wouldn't try and claim you know me because you have no idea. In fact I've probably read the bible more than you (however judging by your knowledge of the bible even once would be enough).
6) Ok, "the laws have changed in the new testament". Good argument ... IF you can show me where it states that women became mens equals and where it was no longer required to eat faeces. Your argument about meat is totally incorrect, the bible says:
Leviticus 7:22-27
The LORD said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: 'Do not eat any of the fat of cattle, sheep or goats. The fat of an animal found dead or torn by wild animals may be used for any other purpose, but you must not eat it. Anyone who eats the fat of an animal from which an offering by fire may be made to the LORD must be cut off from his people. And wherever you live, you must not eat the blood of any bird or animal. If anyone eats blood, that person must be cut off from his people
Blood and fat, not meat as a whole.
Leviticus 11:1-3
The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud
Leviticus 11:9
'Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales.
Leviticus11:13-19
'These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat
Leviticus 11:20-23
'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest. (side note - Insects have 4 legs? According to the bible they do. Is this another one of those miracles I've been hearing about?)
So you see, you don't actually know what you're talking about. Those were from Leviticus (the OLD testament) about clean and unclean foods. So where is this change in law allowing us to eat meat in the new testament?
But I'm wasting my time, aren't I? You'll come back with another unsubstantiated argument "I know xxx because of yyy which I can't find right now" or "It's right because the bible tells me so" or "That was metaphorical (because it suits me to read it metaphorically now)" etc etc.
On a side note, this thread has become a thread about CHRISTIANITY, which does not appear to be the original intent. The question asked was: Do you believe in god?
Now that does not only denote christianity. As a matter of fact I was one of the people who votes yes. Thats the problem with using the term god, it immediately raises christian connotations when it's actually a term for any deity. I have no problem with the concept of a higher power, it's the brainwashing performed by organised religion (this thread stands as a testament to the fact) that galls me.
Hey scythe, watch it pal. No double posting. :P
Hey scythe, watch it pal. No double posting. :PSurely the rules aren't so stringent???
I mean I can understand the banning of double posting for double posting's sake but when you're confronting 2 decidedly different topics within the same thread surely that should be deemed ok? I mean my 2 posts were on completely different veins, one was regarding a longstanding discussion with other members within the thread (which should, technically speaking, be held in a different thread for said discussions purpose), the other was a comment on the thread itself and it's actual purpose. When more than 1 topic is being commented on within 1 thread surely an answer/comment on both as separate posts (to highlight the fact that they should be considered separate from each other) would be considered appropriate?
or something
hoverbike
02-17-2006, 15:11
I'm not sure what you mean by slime and ooze, do you mean the matter that makes up the universe, planets and stars etc?
Stars and planets formed long after the big bang, the "big bang" basically created helium and hydrogen, this was pulled together by gravity to such a density that stars were born, these stars are responsible for creating just about everything else, in the form of atoms, including everything required to make a human.
About what I said about god intervening to make the "bang" occur, what I mean is, there's no widely accepted theory as to why the "bang" happened, just what happened immediately after.
well some people believe that a slime brought about species.
hmmm you got me thinking now. Ist it possible that the big bang happened and God exists? so im thinking, maybe god did cause the big bang to happen. well even if this is true, it still means that god created us. he just used the big bang to do it.
i dont know, im going to have to do some major thinking on this subject.
No, God did not create the Big Bang! Please don't fall into that trap of believing God created the Big Bang!!! The bible doesn't state ANYWHERE that God made the big Bang! God created all life from nothing which sounds crazy to non-believers but it's not crazy if your god.
Big Bang=nonsense
I can't believe you write this:
No, God did not create the Big Bang! Please don't fall into that trap of believing God created the Big Bang!!! The bible doesn't state ANYWHERE that God made the big Bang! God created all life from nothing
and then this:
Big Bang=nonsense
and you're not being sarcastic.
I don't know whether to be amused or pitiful ...
To be honest it's maybe a bit admirable, the fact that you have such blind faith that you're willing to believe anything the bible tells you, the ability to completely remove yourself from free thought and evidence and trust in nothing but belief in a book written by humans and compiled/published by those in power over 1000 years ago is quite amazing.
Just a thought: the church always shows jesus ad a white with fair skin/hair/features. This is totally out of keeping with the population on that time in that area (think about it, how many whites are native to the middle east, africa, australia, in fact any hot country?) So why is he depiceted as a clean shaven fair white man? Possible because the bible and it's "depictions" were compiled by white men?
Not to mention for decades the crucifiction depictions were shown with the nails in the hands ... despite the fact that the hands cannot support the body's weight, crucifictions were performed through the WRISTS (or did god give him the strength to be supported by his hands?). If the church can make a mistake on such a fundamental image of their faith what else could they be mistaken on?
Mael Duin
02-17-2006, 15:37
Okay this is getting out of control, now everyone cool down.
narutoboy
02-17-2006, 17:42
I'm not sure what you mean by slime and ooze, do you mean the matter that makes up the universe, planets and stars etc?
Stars and planets formed long after the big bang, the "big bang" basically created helium and hydrogen, this was pulled together by gravity to such a density that stars were born, these stars are responsible for creating just about everything else, in the form of atoms, including everything required to make a human.
About what I said about god intervening to make the "bang" occur, what I mean is, there's no widely accepted theory as to why the "bang" happened, just what happened immediately after.
well some people believe that a slime brought about species.
hmmm you got me thinking now. Ist it possible that the big bang happened and God exists? so im thinking, maybe god did cause the big bang to happen. well even if this is true, it still means that god created us. he just used the big bang to do it.
i dont know, im going to have to do some major thinking on this subject.
No, God did not create the Big Bang! Please don't fall into that trap of believing God created the Big Bang!!! The bible doesn't state ANYWHERE that God made the big Bang! God created all life from nothing which sounds crazy to non-believers but it's not crazy if your god.
Big Bang=nonsense
ok sorry, it was like 2:00 in the morning when i wrote that
so i was kinda tired.
it seemed logical at the time. yea your right it doesnt say that in the bible.
hoverbike
02-17-2006, 18:36
I can't believe you write this:
No, God did not create the Big Bang! Please don't fall into that trap of believing God created the Big Bang!!! The bible doesn't state ANYWHERE that God made the big Bang! God created all life from nothing
and then this:
Big Bang=nonsense
and you're not being sarcastic.
I don't know whether to be amused or pitiful ...
To be honest it's maybe a bit admirable, the fact that you have such blind faith that you're willing to believe anything the bible tells you, the ability to completely remove yourself from free thought and evidence and trust in nothing but belief in a book written by humans and compiled/published by those in power over 1000 years ago is quite amazing.
Just a thought: the church always shows jesus ad a white with fair skin/hair/features. This is totally out of keeping with the population on that time in that area (think about it, how many whites are native to the middle east, africa, australia, in fact any hot country?) So why is he depiceted as a clean shaven fair white man? Possible because the bible and it's "depictions" were compiled by white men?
Not to mention for decades the crucifiction depictions were shown with the nails in the hands ... despite the fact that the hands cannot support the body's weight, crucifictions were performed through the WRISTS (or did god give him the strength to be supported by his hands?). If the church can make a mistake on such a fundamental image of their faith what else could they be mistaken on?
So now your saying that we always show jesus as a white man but really, we don't know that and it may be the churchs but everywhere people think of jesus was being white! The church isn't the center of everything and in fact, you don't even need to go to chuch!! I don't care about what jesus looked like and this has nothing to do with the subject at hand!
As for the Big Bang thing I laugh at it and you think that not believing in it makes me crazy? The Big Bang is a scientific theory, not the truth. You may not like the bible and what it's says but does that make it not the truth?
I don't know whether to be amused or pitiful ...
To be honest it's maybe a bit admirable, the fact that you have such blind faith that you're willing to believe anything the bible tells you
The same thing goes for science and the Big Bang since you wern't even there when it happened. What if a sciencist said that we can fly right now? Would you believe it?
The Big Bang is a scientific theory, not the truth. You may not like the bible and what it's says but does that make it not the truth?
Big Bang is a theory, with EVIDENCE that back up this theory, bible on the other hand it's just a text book that some people wrote thousands of years ago, with NO evidence to back their claims.
The same thing goes for science and the Big Bang since you wern't even there when it happened.
Using your logic, x^2+y^2=z^2 can be wrong right? because you can't check all the triangles to see if this equation is true.
science unlike the bible or any religious textbook uses evidence and mathematical proofs to back it's claims.
narutoboy
02-17-2006, 20:46
The Big Bang is a scientific theory, not the truth. You may not like the bible and what it's says but does that make it not the truth?
Big Bang is a theory, with EVIDENCE that back up this theory, bible on the other hand it's just a text book that some people wrote thousands of years ago, with NO evidence to back their claims.
The same thing goes for science and the Big Bang since you wern't even there when it happened.
Using your logic, x^2+y^2=z^2 can be wrong right? because you can't check all the triangles to see if this equation is true.
science unlike the bible or any religious textbook uses evidence and mathematical proofs to back it's claims.
what are you talking about, no evidence to back up the bible :lol:
there is evidence of jesus
there is evidence of the noahs arks existence/the great flood
there is evidence of sodom and gomorrah (sorry if i mispelled that)
there is evidence of the existence of the garden of eden
should i go on?