The RSX Conspiracy - RSX <-> G80 Connection ?

[archy141]

I came across this guy on a forum that is dead set on the fact that RSX HAS TO BE LOT more than we were led to believe.
The amount of passion he has poured into pages of his thread just made me take notice & gave me something to think about -especially when Sony news is so dry (not including bored media doom stories)

Anyhow i reponded to him & i wanted to share it with you all.
Please don't flame as its based on speculations & possibilities that may or may never happen & probably errors- certainly will give you something to think & discuss about..





Keller,

I totally agree with you. It would be simply crazy for Sony to pay NVIDIA that large of a sum of money for a GPU that according to the official specifications that were released at E3 of 2005 is nothing more than a slightly modified N47 or 7800/7900.

Sony and NVIDIA claimed they spent tons of money customizing this chip, bragged on the manhours used, and called it a customized GPU. If it's simply a N47 with a few ROPS taken out, a bus to it's GDDR3 RAM reduced in size to 128bits, the FlexIO bus attached, and perhaps a little more texture cache here and there then Sony's frigging lost it!

However, that's why I think the RSX *has* to be something more significant than a dumbed down slightly tweaked N47. It doesn't make sense for them to put all that work into making such minor changes, it doesn't make sense for Sony to pay all that money, and it doesn't make sense that they would say so much about the RSX being *custom* if it's really nothing significant at all.

For the kind of money Sony paid NVIDIA they could have just done those small modifications themselves! Sony has scientists and engineers working for them that know enough about GPU design to make some basic changes and small tweaks. The only thing that makes sense is that the RSX is something truly new and unique and *heavily* modified from the N47.

NVIDIA has lots of interesting patents with interesting ideas about graphical processing and so does Sony and their other companies (that file patents in such a way they can't be traced back to Sony for secrecy purposes). It just makes sense to me that with all this knowledge, skill, and ideas Sony would want to put something *special* into the RSX instead of barely fiddling around a little with an ordinary PC part.

The secrecy is also astounding. I feel that probably Sony has put stricter NDA's on the RSX than *any* of us realize. In the corporate world NDA's can be severely tight and severely inforced. This excessive secrecy is pretty obvious because in almost every interview with developers so far (even in recent ones) the Cell and it's SPE's are mentioned almost *every* time in *every* interview.

BUT THE RSX IS NOT MENTIONED AT ALL!

If the RSX was just an ordinary N47 like what Sony released at E3 of 2005 I would not understand this severe secrecy. However, I have an idea and a guess I would like to share with all of you.

The RSX is unique, special, and very powerful. It utilizes some new technologies significantly beyond the currently released NVIDIA GPU's. This could be some sort of multicore feature or perhaps something we have no idea about at this time.

Sony could have even kept these new features secret from many or all of their developers until the last Dev-Kits were released *after* E3 of 2006.

Currently, the developers could be under a strict NDA not to mention these features, not to mention anything about the new specs of the RSX, and not to even mention the specs of the RSX that Sony had officially released in 2005. They also could have been told to avoid answering any question or making any comment about the RSX other than completely vague generic statements.

Sony could very well want to release the news about these new features of the RSX at TGS or some other event just before the launch.

Right now, the current consensus of *most* gamers out there is that the Cell of the PS3 is truly amazing but the GPU is pretty mundane. It's going to be powerful but nothing really impressive and by the time the PS3 launches it will be even less so.

By announcing these new features Sony could easily double the hype of the PS3's power by proving to the world that not only does the Cell have an amazing CPU but also a cutting edge truly unique GPU that's also quite stunning.

I could be wrong and the RSX might not be anything more than a slightly modified 7800. If that turns out to be true then that's the case and there is nothing we can do about it. But something inside of me just wants to know one way or the other.

This secrecy is becoming so annoying because we have heard so much about the Cell and it's potential. We have read information about how it can perform vertex work, ray casting, physics, animation, shading, and even texturing! It has been proven that the Cell (even if it's proven that it's not very practical) can do things that CPU's are really NOT supposed to be able to do!

But then we have the RSX.

Let me ask you a question. Please, consider this seriously.

What's neat about the RSX? What is truly *cool* about the Reality Synthesizer?

Can you think of anything truly amazing or even really neat you have heard about it so far? Even one clearly unique feature?

NOPE! Nothing really significant has officially been revealed about the RSX (even the stuff at E3 of 2005) that makes it anything more than a pretty powerful but at the same time fairly mundane GPU.

There is honestly nothing to really get excited about when considering the RSX!

To sum up:

The Cell: Super Powerful, Way Cool, Can do LOTS of stuff!

The RSX: Umm... Pretty good, fairly powerful, standard GPU?

Sony MUST have planned to produce a RSX more significant than the above!




Makeitlookreal - I just had to logon to say HOW MUCH I ADMIRE THE AMOUNT PASSION YOU HAVE IN YOUR BELIEF !

I also wish that its more than a custom (maybe cut down rather than beefed up) 7800/7900 as many are speculating it to be..

I also think it does not make sense to pair such a fine, well researched & developed NEXTGEN CPU with what is practically last years PC GPU with trimmings.

But industry does not always follow our wishful logic.. they have business logic & financial constraints. Maybe the RSX was a 7800/7900 derivative that should have shipped in a console back in spring 2006 & than it would have been as sold - MOST POWERFUL GPU OUT at that time. But hang on.. according to developers on beyond3d the XBOX360 GPU would still have been slightly superior to the RSX specs.

To add fuel to your conspiracy i have a few thoughts of my own..

What if Sony never had actually planned to release in spring 2006.. judging by where the console is now it would seem there was no way at all that it was ever going to be out for Spring. It was just marketing hype to keep the fans waiting rather than have them rush off to by the competitors console. The console was always planned for fall of 2006 & all project scheduling was done to that release date right from E2005's announcement. This scenario is all very possible to this point.

Between the release of the XBOX360 & now Sony would have had plenty of time to study the inner workings of its competitors console & know what they are up against. Remember they are telling us this console is for 10 years.
I believe there are three possibilities that can take place in regards to the final RSX Spec's:


1. They have kept RSX as spec'ed in E2005. As a result they have decided to no longer market the GPU spec's as they do not show any advantage over competitors GPU. With all the heavy investment Sony has already made & taken on loans, maybe it just was no longer financially feasible to upgrade the RSX even if they wanted to meet there initial goals - MOST POWERFUL GPU OUT AT RELEASE.

2. They have upped the RSX spec's. Same 7800/7900 with possibly more GDDR3 or XDR memory & slightly higher clock speeds. Maybe it explains the extra money given to NVIDIA for the undisclosed project.

3. They have completely changed the RSX so that when it is out in November as always intended it will clearly boast - MOST POWERFUL GPU OUT AT RELEASE.
But question is will it be a custom multicore 7900/7800 ?
or even better .. a new chip altogether based on the G80.

[quote]
NVIDIA’s code-named G80 graphics processing unit (GPU) will incorporate 48 pixel shader processors and an unknown number of vertex shader processors, some unofficial sources said. The chip is still expected to support feature-set of DirectX 10 along with Shader Model 4.0, even though it will not take advantage of the unified processors that can compute both pixel and vertex shaders.[ 02/20/2006]
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20060220100915.html

Now that would really be worthy of pairing with CELL & making a console that had the potential to get anywhere close to 10 years life span.

Just reading that description makes you feel that only this would fit the description that Sony seemed to have been boasting about. Maybe it explains the extra money given to NVIDIA for a undisclosed project.

It would definitely be the MOST POWERFUL GPU on market in November & for some time to come. With DX10 & shader4... we can see it lasting quite a long while.. It is also NON Unified processor like RSX is meant to be.

This too me is the glove that fits the best if Sony were to live up to the Hype on RSX & a console for 10 years .. and very wishful thinking of course.

Not to get hopes too high as these are all just equally possible - including no changes at all & RSX as Spec'd at E2005.

Unfortunately all we can do is wait for TGS & hope Sony let off some real BIG FIREWORKS.


Archy



UPDATE Taken From This Thread:
***************************



The RSX being a G80 Derivative is very possible.

I know it may sound a little far fetched but let me explain how & why I believe that the RSX is a lot more than what was on the E3 2005 spec sheet.

Sony has repeatedly said that they want to build True Nextgen System that will last 10 years – i.e. high long term investment plan.

Sony spent silly amounts of money to create a NextGen CPU
Sony spent loadsa money to create a NextGen BluRay Media
Sony spent bags of money to get NextGen HDMI1.3 Connectivity

Sony did not spent wads of money to get yesterdays NV47 core glued to Flexio.

The N47 GPU part does not fit at all with the selection of other truly NextGen components. There is nothing NextGen about it today & hardly back in spring.

Having followed every piece of PS3 news for over a year I took a step back to look at the whole history of events that unfolded pre E3 2005 to post E3 2006.

If you do this you will realise something very apparent that we fail to notice when we look at the daily picture - Sony NEVER had a Spring 06 release in mind.
It was impossible even if they had wanted to consider it as they were clearly way behind on there PS3 roadmap with too many milestones still to cover.

Sony have made so many changes between spring & now that it makes you realise spring was never meant to be. The PS3 has evolved & taken so much more shape since its expected release date, that it really does look like Fall 06 was always the intended release date. Even the dev kits seem to be in good supply with a few months to go.

Sony did not fudge up there project management by this much.
A reschedule to fall 06 for release was not just because of BluRay or HDMI as otherwise everything else could have been polished & ready to go apart from these components. Instead lots of things were & are still being changed or completed e.g. controller, case, OS (XMB/Internet browser/Live), RSX chips apparently rolling out just recently & not pre spring if they were to make it into a console.

I believe Sony has been masterfully applying Sun Tzu - The Art of War in there business.

They always intended to release PS3 around Fall 06.
They bought time with loyal fans by selling them not so far Spring 06 release date & they did a great job – I’m still here !

I believe the RSX figures they gave from NVIDIA were arbitrary for a top GPU that was going to hit around Spring 06 (7800). This was a strategic move by Sony to keep the fans satisfied, media in frenzied & MOST importantly to force there competitors to respond & bare there console secrets - XBOX360 GPU specs etc.
It was executed brilliantly!

It would have been utterly stupid business sense for Sony to reveal the true RSX spec’s & give the competition the heads up. Especially knowing the XBOX360 had not been released yet & was still possible to changes. Better to lull the competition into false security.

Noticed how RSX specs disappeared from all Sony presentations?
The values they gave at E3 05 served there temporary purpose. The real values will probably be divulged when they are good & ready to strike a blow.

Sony have since had plenty of time to weigh up the competition & make changes where necessary.. Motion controller.. Free online offering.. Standard HD :D etc
To date they have addressed individual strengths in there rivals console & responded by making the necessary changes to better if not equal them.
Sony is well aware of the XBOX360’s 2 strengths – Live & Xenos & they will surely counter attack them also.

It’s clear that Sony has lot riding on the success of PS3 due to the massive investment made. They seem to be deadly serious to win this war & they will not Microsoft’s XBOX360 get away with it.

The RSX CANNOT be what was on paper at E3 05.
That is plainly illogical if you apply Sony’s though of mind to date.

I believe they will deliver some kind of GPU that will deliver all they spoke of at E3 05 & more. Sony will definitely try to better Xenos without a shadow of doubt. They will have been listening to all the positives & negatives by developers on Xenos so that they can weigh it up against the RSX & make changes if need be.

First of all I was thinking like many hopefuls that it’s a custom built NVIDIA 7800/7900 derivative. But than the other day I came across details of a new NVIDIA GPU – The G80.

If we had a user requirements document for the RSX - the G80 would fit it like a glove.


-G80 will be most powerful GPU out when released & agree with what Sony/NVIDIA proclaimed of RSX

-G80 is DX10 & Shader Model 4 compliant which will increase its life span & make Sony’s ambitious 10 years for PS3 more realistic

-G80 does not use a Unified Processor like RSX even though it is DX10.All DX10 cards are supposed to use Unified Processors according to MS spec. Seems they were developing more for a system like PS3 (non unified processor reuirement) than Vista.

-G80 first NVIDIA GPU to support in built HDCP (Must for HD BluRay Movies over HDMI) as well as HDMI (wish I could confirm it was HDMI 1.3)

-G80 uses GDDR4 memory

Another possible way to look at the G80 is that it is the end product of NVIDIA's customisation that went into a G70 core to make the RSX. G80 is the RSX + more for the PC market & RSX is the custom G80 for the PS3

You have to admit that really does tally up with what we were sold as RSX.
In fact it is a more similar to the Xenos in design but with full DX10 + Shader model 4 support and no Unified Processor. Sony new back at E305 that the Xenos was part DX10 compliant. They knew than what they were up against & would not have settled for anything inferior. I’m sure they are aware of he value of investing in a DX10 Shader 4 card if they wanted it to last in there console for a decade. Would they really settle for DX9 GPU knowing what was around the corner (MS Vista pushing for DX10) ?

Maybe MS did go to NVIDIA first for Xenos but they were not able to deliver a Unified Processor GPU in time & cost terms. I believe MS have personal interests in Unified Processor architecture as it is part of Vista’s DX10 GPU requirement. It makes sense that MS would have wanted to have similar GPU’s in Vista & XBOX360 to make PC port easier & cross develop with XNA.

Sony on the other hand did not have requirements for Unified Processor & were able to contract NVIDIA to build RSX with DX10 + Shader 4.

The G80 will most definitely SMOKE the Xenos & outlast it with full its full DX10 & shader model 4 support. This truly is a GPU that you can see worthy of being in the PS3 with the CELL, BluRay & HDMI1.3. Not very hard to picture at all.

Most likely we will not end up with the G80 but instead some kind of custom derivative that shares its feature set & integrates well into the PS3.

Sony could put all of my logic & reasoning down the pan & the RSX turn out to be nothing like the G80 but I’m 100% convinced at worst case scenario it will not have the E305 spec’s. It will most definitely be more than we were told.

NVIDIA CEO : Postponing the PS3 was a master stroke





In regards to the new 7950GT (NOT same as dual 7950 GX2) that people are pointing as possible RSX..I would like to remind people that 7950 is just another NV47 core implementation just like 7800 & 7900 are. I believe the key point differentiating 7900 & 7950 will be NVIDIA's own INTEGRATED HDCP solution on the 7950. Previously the NVIDIA cards used a seperate third party chip by Silicon Images for HDCP.

The RSX will also be another NV47 implementation & if history holds it will be more than all other NV47 implementations.

Nvidia's last console GPU was NV2A for the XBOX. It was derived from
the PC GPU NV20 through customisation that gave it the edge. It had 2
vertex shaders and 2 ALUS per shader pipe - features only found in next
generataion NVIDIA NV30 GPU that was still to come. The NV20 of the
time had only 1 vertex shader pipe. After the NV20 & NV2A the NV25
was released but even that was not quite on par with the older NV2A
design. It was only superceded much later by arrival of NV30 - a new
GPU generation architecture for NVIDIA. The NV2A as a result was
loosely reffered to as NV27 as it's featureset set somewhere between
the NV25 & NV30.

Throughout this thread i have given many reasons to why i believe that
the RSX cannot simply be a PC GPU off the shelf solution. NOT for a
second do I buy the story Sony went to NVIDIA last minute & its the best
they could do.

In the same way as the NV2A I belive the RSX will sit somewhere
between the last NV47 variation (7950) & NV50 (G80 family).
It will have the base design of NV47 core but have customisations that share features of NV50(G80). i.e we are not expecting 500Mill+ transistors like in full blown G80.





With the ongoing drought of RSX news maybe it's a good time to momentarily pause & reflect on the whole picture by looking at what we do know.

Judging by what little RSX specifications we know, it is possible the RSX will resemble the NVIDIA 7950GT & have customisations to suit the PS3 architecture. Also it should not be hard to accept the fact it will probably share some technologies associated with the G80 GPU as that was in development with NVIDIA before the RSX. After all the G80 is an advancement of G70's core (NV47) by adding extra technologies such as SmartShader 4. Its not a brand new radical architecture & doesn't even use unified architecture.


Our next generation product is the combination of 3 years of heavy-duty work. We started architecting it about 4 years ago..

NVIDIA Corporation at Morgan Stanley Semiconductor & Systems Conference 03/07/06 at 8:45 a.m. PT

i.e. NVIDIA started work on G80 back in 2002 & Sony approached them 2004 earliest but possibly late as 2005 as that’s when NVDIA made official announcement they were working with Sony to create RSX.

From what we know, NVIDIA was already working on G80 before Sony approached them for RSX design. It would only makes sense for them to use the most current technologies at hand to make a NextGen console GPU. Logically reasoning, I would find it more surprising for NVIDIA not to use any G80 technology that they were currently working on & instead just use older G70 technology. Baring in mind what we already know of the PS3, Sony have not cut any corners in selecting the best cutting edge components for there so called "Truly NextGen Console". Without doubt they have thrown plenty of money in its development. If the PS3 had come out in Spring 06, with the RSX GPU based on the original E3 2005 spec's , it would have already been eclipsed if not outdated by the G7900 GPU.


There is one another possibility that challenges all of this 'RSX Is More'' theory which we should be aware of.

Maybe the RSX was never meant to be anything more than originally spec'd back in E3 2005.

Why & How could that be ?

Because there is a LOT more power in the Cell processor than we realise. It does better than any GPU all the heavy preliminary maths work (e.g. processing vertices) & than passes image for RSX to simply render & rasterize. In this scenario RSX would not have to be all that mighty but simple, efficient & relatively cheap. It would just need to have slight tweaks such as bigger caches to help it become a SHADER MONSTER. This is under the speculation that the Cell processor is more powerful than we realise (maybe upgraded to 4GHz if 3.2GHz is not enough to fulfil this speculation).

Time to summarise..

"There was a time round the start of this thread when i was desperate for the RSX to be something huge & much better than Xenos. But having seen the recent state of first gen games still under development I am no longer as concerned. I now feel convinced the PS3 will be able to match the graphics of the E3 2005 target renders for Motorstorm & even KillZone in due time.

Whatever the RSX is we don't need to worry. Combined with the Cell & Blu-Ray it will be able to deliver NextGen games that we will want to show off. Maybe we should try not focus so hard on RSX as a single entity but instead as a component which will combine with the rest of the cutting edge system to form the PS3. A console system & more that looks like it will be delivering on all fronts."
edited 26th August 2006



If you like this thread + REP me :D



Archy

[exodus7]

This is a lot of guesswork. His points are all valid, but none the less this still remains speculation at this point. I personally do not think RSX will be anything more than we expect, and anything less than Xenos. RSX will have the power of a Top end Nvidea card, you can rest assured.

[Ballz2TheWallz]

Beefed up memory? IS THAT A JOKE? its memory is equal to a 7600GT(difference is the RSX has 2x the pipes and the ram is twice as slow but it equates to the same performance)

Wheres the weaker option?

[vash180]

I admire his passion and his points are note worthy. All i can say is we won't know till Sony decides to tell us. I'm hoping he is right.

[janenba352]

Well devs did say the card is a shader monster so if it can do Shader Model 4 then heck yes it is.

[Ballz2TheWallz]

Well devs did say the card is a shader monster so if it can do Shader Model 4 then heck yes it is.
It can't do SM4.0, I'm willing to put my life on the line over it, sony would have been bragging by now

Have we not forgotten 7xxx series failed SM3.0
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=27084

[THEREALNEXTGEN]

Well devs did say the card is a shader monster so if it can do Shader Model 4 then heck yes it is.
It can't do SM4.0, I'm willing to put my life on the line over it, sony would have been bragging by now

Have we not forgotten 7xxx series failed SM3.0
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=27084

Come on don't use the Inquirer, it's yellow journalism. Pull your head out of the sand and use your brain to get real facts. By the way how did the 7 series fail sm3.0 since the 6 series took advantage of it?

[razorblade416]

Wow, this guy is very passionate about his PS3, and that was a great response.

My opinion? There gonna drop the RSX bomb at TGS 8) It's going to be something so utterly amazing people will HAVE to buy the PS3. I just don't think they would go through all the trouble to make this great CPU and great disk media, but no GPU to back it up. Maybe the devs don't even know about the new specs :lol:.

Don't forget, Sony always has that "hardware subject to change at any time" card up their sleeve. :wink:

[shadow26]

i just dont see why sony would pay more than the original price for the RSX (correct?) just for an upgrade or re-working of it. Like the other guy- Makeitlookreal i think, said: They have buisness logic and financial restraints.

[xmokshax]

Beefed up memory? IS THAT A JOKE? its memory is equal to a 7600GT(difference is the RSX has 2x the pipes and the ram is twice as slow but it equates to the same performance)

Wheres the weaker option?

did you even read the second post?


I believe there are three possibilities that can take place in regards to the final RSX Spec's:

1. They have kept RSX as spec'ed in E2005.

while the person quoted in the OP does make valid points (all of which have been made before), the thing i always come back to is the fact that we AREN'T seeing mind-blowing stuff from developers at this point. i'm not saying that we should expect perfection from the first wave of games, or that games like HS, AC, and MGS4 aren't extremely impressive, but they don't seem QUITE impressive enough to suggest that RSX is something truly special and considerably more powerful than Xenos. i truly hope it is, but the early indications don't necessarily look promising that RSX is anything revolutionary.

[THEREALNEXTGEN]

Wow, this guy is very passionate about his PS3, and that was a great response.

My opinion? There gonna drop the RSX bomb at TGS 8) It's going to be something so utterly amazing people will HAVE to buy the PS3. I just don't think they would go through all the trouble to make this great CPU and great disk media, but no GPU to back it up. Maybe the devs don't even know about the new specs :lol:.

Don't forget, Sony always has that "hardware subject to change at any time" card up their sleeve. :wink:

I think you're exactly right. I think I might just get the PS3 for sure now if it does have a great GPU. I was really thinking about the Xbox 360. Since my 18th B Day is before the launch in November, I should get plenty of money to buy and I'll get even more money when I get my full ride scholarship cuz I'm Valedictorian, Bitch!


I would like to add too that the developer kits at E3 were running on 7800's and the developers reportedly said Sony was to give them even more with the final kits.

[razorblade416]

Wow, this guy is very passionate about his PS3, and that was a great response.

My opinion? There gonna drop the RSX bomb at TGS 8) It's going to be something so utterly amazing people will HAVE to buy the PS3. I just don't think they would go through all the trouble to make this great CPU and great disk media, but no GPU to back it up. Maybe the devs don't even know about the new specs :lol:.

Don't forget, Sony always has that "hardware subject to change at any time" card up their sleeve. :wink:

I think you're exactly right. I think I might just get the PS3 for sure now if it does have a great GPU. I was really thinking about the Xbox 360. Since my 18th B Day is before the launch in November, I should get plenty of money to buy and I'll get even more money when I get my full ride scholarship cuz I'm Valedictorian, *expletive deleted*!


I would like to add too that the developer kits at E3 were running on 7800's and the developers reportedly said Sony was to give them even more with the final kits.

Congrats on your scholarship and being Valedictorian! That's great! Just don't blow and and play games all the time :lol:. Heck, if I was Valedictorian, I would demand my money they were saving for me for college and buy all three consoles! :P :lol:

[THEREALNEXTGEN]

Wow, this guy is very passionate about his PS3, and that was a great response.

My opinion? There gonna drop the RSX bomb at TGS 8) It's going to be something so utterly amazing people will HAVE to buy the PS3. I just don't think they would go through all the trouble to make this great CPU and great disk media, but no GPU to back it up. Maybe the devs don't even know about the new specs :lol:.

Don't forget, Sony always has that "hardware subject to change at any time" card up their sleeve. :wink:

I think you're exactly right. I think I might just get the PS3 for sure now if it does have a great GPU. I was really thinking about the Xbox 360. Since my 18th B Day is before the launch in November, I should get plenty of money to buy and I'll get even more money when I get my full ride scholarship cuz I'm Valedictorian, *expletive deleted*!


I would like to add too that the developer kits at E3 were running on 7800's and the developers reportedly said Sony was to give them even more with the final kits.

Congrats on your scholarship and being Valedictorian! That's great! Just don't blow and and play games all the time :lol:. Heck, if I was Valedictorian, I would demand my money they were saving for me for college and buy all three consoles! :P :lol:

I don't have a scholarship yet but I know my parents said they would give me my college money and buy me all kinds of stuff if I get one which I should if I don't go in and pull a senior prank and play hooky all year. ROFL.

[shadow26]

shit! valedictorian, im almost there....cough 4th! cough....that is, in my school. Anyway do you mean youll get a ps3 now, just because it MIGHT have a really great GPU? lol
wait i read that wrong but whatever, yeah, deep inside my heart i am always wishing sony has something surprising to blow us out of the water with....thats what i was thinking during that meeting when they announced the delay...unforunately i dont think its going to happen

[THEREALNEXTGEN]

*expletive deleted*! valedictorian, im almost there....cough 4th! cough....that is, in my school. Anyway do you mean youll get a ps3 now, just because it MIGHT have a really great GPU? lol
wait i read that wrong but whatever, yeah, deep inside my heart i am always wishing sony has something surprising to blow us out of the water with....thats what i was thinking during that meeting when they announced the delay...unforunately i dont think its going to happen

Just hack the school computers and give the Asian kids ahead of you F's or go cough on them with the flu or acuse them of cheating! ROFL. Good Luck, you'll go far.

On a side note let's be optimistic and hope Sony blows the gaming world out the water. Sony has followed Teddy Roosevelt by speaking softly and carrying a big stick. LOL.

[Jacobi1981]

it would be very nice to see some beefed up specs of the rsx, but i'm not going to bet on it. i'll take the run of the mill version of the rsx, plenty of gpu for me.

[kaos73]

If they do use a better gpu for the ps3 how would it affect games that are nearing completion like Resistance would dev's have enough time to put the upgraded gpu to use?

[Ballz2TheWallz]

Beefed up memory? IS THAT A JOKE? its memory is equal to a 7600GT(difference is the RSX has 2x the pipes and the ram is twice as slow but it equates to the same performance)

Wheres the weaker option?

did you even read the second post?


Second post isn't fact, and personally I accept a developers opinion more then I do then some fanboys on a PS3 forum about the RSX vs Xenos arguement

Developers already have official real world spec sheets, the RSX has been completed, its impossible to all of the sudden say WHOOPS WE UPGRADED IT

[THEREALNEXTGEN]

Beefed up memory? IS THAT A JOKE? its memory is equal to a 7600GT(difference is the RSX has 2x the pipes and the ram is twice as slow but it equates to the same performance)

Wheres the weaker option?

did you even read the second post?


Second post isn't fact, and personally I accept a developers opinion more then I do then some fanboys on a PS3 forum about the RSX vs Xenos arguement

Ok no time for flaming fanboys partner. If you don't agree, please be civil and counter the posts don't be an ass. I recommend you spend less time on this forum because it will become full of more passionate PS3 fans in the coming months. Don't be hatin' if can't be playin' the PS3.

[archy141]

i just dont see why sony would pay more than the original price for the RSX (correct?) just for an upgrade or re-working of it. Like the other guy- Makeitlookreal i think, said: They have buisness logic and financial restraints.

That was my reponse to the poster.

What if Sony paid NVIDIA to make RSX which was always - G80 ?
What if the specs drawn up at E2005 were just there to buy time & let MS release XBOX360 so they could measure up the competition first.

If it is simply just 7800/7900 derivative, than do you really belive Sony can invest in this console for 10 years ? There (NVIDIA/SONY) statement of most powerful GPU was a marketing lie from the start ?

When NVIDIA created GPU for the XBOX they made one that lasted & outpaced PC's 1-2 years. I would think they are going to deliver something on the same basis of advancements for the PS3.

It just seems wrong to take a current PC GFX chip & trim it to fit a console which has a BOTH NEXTGEN CPU & NEXTGEN MEDIA PLAYER that is supposed to be around for 10 years. Just doesn't add well.




Archy

[Ballz2TheWallz]

i just dont see why sony would pay more than the original price for the RSX (correct?) just for an upgrade or re-working of it. Like the other guy- Makeitlookreal i think, said: They have buisness logic and financial restraints.

That was my reponse to the poster.

What if Sony paid NVIDIA to make RSX which was always - G80 ?
What if the specs drawn up at E2005 were just there to buy time & let MS release XBOX360 so they could measure up the competition first.

If it is simply just 7800/7900 derivative, than do you really belive Sony can invest in this console for 10 years ? There (NVIDIA/SONY) statement of most powerful GPU was a marketing lie from the start ?

When NVIDIA created GPU for the XBOX they made one that lasted & outpaced PC's 1-2 years. I would think they are going to deliver something on the same basis of advancements for the PS3.

It just seems wrong to take a current PC GFX chip & trim it to fit a console which has a BOTH NEXTGEN CPU & NEXTGEN MEDIA PLAYER that is supposed to be around for 10 years. Just doesn't add well.




Archy
The nvidia GPU in the xbox was a geforce3 on steroids, in a time when they sold Geforce4's

The PS3 is expected to last 10years just as the PS1 did, and the PS1 was FAR weaker then the N64

[exodus7]

i just dont see why sony would pay more than the original price for the RSX (correct?) just for an upgrade or re-working of it. Like the other guy- Makeitlookreal i think, said: They have buisness logic and financial restraints.

That was my reponse to the poster.

What if Sony paid NVIDIA to make RSX which was always - G80 ?
What if the specs drawn up at E2005 were just there to buy time & let MS release XBOX360 so they could measure up the competition first.

If it is simply just 7800/7900 derivative, than do you really belive Sony can invest in this console for 10 years ? There (NVIDIA/SONY) statement of most powerful GPU was a marketing lie from the start ?

When NVIDIA created GPU for the XBOX they made one that lasted & outpaced PC's 1-2 years. I would think they are going to deliver something on the same basis of advancements for the PS3.

It just seems wrong to take a current PC GFX chip & trim it to fit a console which has a BOTH NEXTGEN CPU & NEXTGEN MEDIA PLAYER that is supposed to be around for 10 years. Just doesn't add well.




Archy
The nvidia GPU in the xbox was a geforce3 on steroids, in a time when they sold Geforce4's

This whole 10 years thing is beginning to annoy me. This technology will not last 10 years. It's plain and simple. In 10 years, technology will have improved so much that the PS3 will be outdated and long forgotten. The whole 10 years thing is just a marketing gimmick.

[itsthenathan]

[quote=Ballz2TheWallz]Beefed up memory? IS THAT A JOKE? its memory is equal to a 7600GT(difference is the RSX has 2x the pipes and the ram is twice as slow but it equates to the same performance)

Wheres the weaker option?

did you even read the second post?


I believe there are three possibilities that can take place in regards to the final RSX Spec's:

1. They have kept RSX as spec'ed in E2005.

while the person quoted in the OP does make valid points (all of which have been made before), the thing i always come back to is the fact that we AREN'T seeing mind-blowing stuff from developers at this point. i'm not saying that we should expect perfection from the first wave of games, or that games like HS, AC, and MGS4 aren't extremely impressive, but they don't seem QUITE impressive enough to suggest that RSX is something truly special and considerably more powerful than Xenos. i truly hope it is, but the early indications don't necessarily look promising that RSX is anything revolutionary.

BUT what if sony didnt tell developers yet. what if the want it to be a big surprise at tgs or something. and ps3 should last 10 years, so we really cant expect great games (average) so near the ps3's launch. its like comparing the 7800 to 7900. There isnt much visible preformance differences now, but there will be later.

[Ballz2TheWallz]

i just dont see why sony would pay more than the original price for the RSX (correct?) just for an upgrade or re-working of it. Like the other guy- Makeitlookreal i think, said: They have buisness logic and financial restraints.

That was my reponse to the poster.

What if Sony paid NVIDIA to make RSX which was always - G80 ?
What if the specs drawn up at E2005 were just there to buy time & let MS release XBOX360 so they could measure up the competition first.

If it is simply just 7800/7900 derivative, than do you really belive Sony can invest in this console for 10 years ? There (NVIDIA/SONY) statement of most powerful GPU was a marketing lie from the start ?

When NVIDIA created GPU for the XBOX they made one that lasted & outpaced PC's 1-2 years. I would think they are going to deliver something on the same basis of advancements for the PS3.

It just seems wrong to take a current PC GFX chip & trim it to fit a console which has a BOTH NEXTGEN CPU & NEXTGEN MEDIA PLAYER that is supposed to be around for 10 years. Just doesn't add well.




Archy
The nvidia GPU in the xbox was a geforce3 on steroids, in a time when they sold Geforce4's

This whole 10 years thing is beginning to annoy me. This technology will not last 10 years. It's plain and simple. In 10 years, technology will have improved so much that the PS3 will be outdated and long forgotten. The whole 10 years thing is just a marketing gimmick.
Exactly, sony is just one giant marketing gimmick(In other words hype machine, they sure talk about how invincible the PS3 is, how $600 is cheap, and show pre rendered videos)

and techniqually the PS3 is already outdated, as is the xbox360....PC hardware just moves that fast

[Redrider]

Well I can see that the xbox crowd is here. He brings up some good points, and if you think that the RSX is the same spec as it was E3 2005 just say not to drugs! We probably will see a beefed up version of the 7900, but you can't say for sure. Even though the chances are vary remote that we will see something between the 7900 and the NV80, you can't rule out the possibility (never say never). He does raise some really interesting questions as to why we don't have a final spec yet. I will be really pissed off if it less that a beefed up 7900.

[Hypx]

We have no idea what the RSX is, however guessing anymore than a modified 7900 is probably unfounded speculation. While it's possible, given the secrecy surrounding the RSX, it would mean a near conspiracy theory where Sony is hiding the final specs from even the devs themselves. The main thing going for the more powerful RSX theory is the fact that a 7900 is pretty old tech as of now and is a smaller chip than Cell. An upgrade of some sort is going to be trivally easy to achieve, assuming costs issues don't get into the way.

[Redrider]

We have no idea what the RSX is, however guessing anymore than a modified 7900 is probably unfounded speculation. While it's possible, given the secrecy surrounding the RSX, it would mean a near conspiracy theory where Sony is hiding the final specs from even the devs themselves. The main thing going for the more powerful RSX theory is the fact that a 7900 is pretty old tech as of now and is a smaller chip than Cell. An upgrade of some sort is going to be trivally easy to achieve, assuming costs issues don't get into the way.But don't forget the the final spec for the controller was released at this year's E3 with all but a few developers knowing about it. Point is Sony does know how to keep a secret. :wink:

[The_One]

There's really no conspiracy... The RSX is going to be around the same strength as a GeForece 7800GTX-7900GTX in terms of raw power, but it'll be able to do things that a 7800GTX-7900GTX will only dream of doing in a game, this is because the RSX will be in a closed environment, and the developers will be able to better utilize the hardware and come up with all sorts of "shortcuts", e.g. nAo32 ;).

[Redrider]

Personally I don't subscribe to the theory that Sony is going to drop any "bomb shells" at TSG. It would be sweet if they did, but keeping a reality check on my expectations will go a long way to enjoying the PS3 once I have one. :wink:

[KuroMaruku]

I don't expect we shall know any thing on the RSX period.

[Lefein]

There's really no conspiracy... The RSX is going to be around the same strength as a GeForece 7800GTX-7900GTX in terms of raw power, but it'll be able to do things that a 7800GTX-7900GTX will only dream of doing in a game, this is because the RSX will be in a closed environment, and the developers will be able to better utilize the hardware and come up with all sorts of "shortcuts", e.g. nAo32 ;).

You're on the ball. A LOT of the development on RSX went into HDCP support as well. However, interfacing with the Flex I/O is a huge step for a monster processor like an NV47. If people knew how much of their graphical power got sucked up in the loss and latency on a PCI-e slot they would think twice about buying these $250 MoBos with SLI support.

It's like the difference in using the butt end of a screwdriver to smack a nail into a piece of wood and using said screwdriver to twist a screw in. Architectural differences between console and PC ONLY puts years of graphical expertise to its best use when it comes to closed systems.

This is why I get a good laugh out of people who take such great offense to the 360s GPU being compared to an R420... It's not a bad thing considering its on a closed system and has a rich feature set due to the unfied shaders and tool-set coming out from DX10 development.. But I'm just a rabid fanboy so what do I know?

Yes, the RSX is going to be a monster on the PS3, if not for the simple fact that Sony has never put as much power into the hands of their developers as they are doing now... People not expecting a big leap are not "red- E."

[THEREALNEXTGEN]

There's really no conspiracy... The RSX is going to be around the same strength as a GeForece 7800GTX-7900GTX in terms of raw power, but it'll be able to do things that a 7800GTX-7900GTX will only dream of doing in a game, this is because the RSX will be in a closed environment, and the developers will be able to better utilize the hardware and come up with all sorts of "shortcuts", e.g. nAo32 ;).

You're on the ball. A LOT of the development on RSX went into HDCP support as well. However, interfacing with the Flex I/O is a huge step for a monster processor like an NV47. If people knew how much of their graphical power got sucked up in the loss and latency on a PCI-e slot they would think twice about buying these $250 MoBos with SLI support.

It's like the difference in using the butt end of a screwdriver to smack a nail into a piece of wood and using said screwdriver to twist a screw in. Architectural differences between console and PC ONLY puts years of graphical expertise to its best use when it comes to closed systems.

This is why I get a good laugh out of people who take such great offense to the 360s GPU being compared to an R420... It's not a bad thing considering its on a closed system and has a rich feature set due to the unfied shaders and tool-set coming out from DX10 development.. But I'm just a rabid fanboy so what do I know?

Yes, the RSX is going to be a monster on the PS3, if not for the simple fact that Sony has never put as much power into the hands of their developers as they are doing now... People not expecting a big leap are not "red- E."

You're exactly right Lefein, you got the whole mindset going for how the technological world works. I'm glad there are people like you who are reasonable and tech savy that explain technology to us and break down the real facts. I'm getting tired of you being called a fanboy which is just stupid because you are a real source on these forums for explaining technology.

[Jugix]

PS3 is a console which has to be under some sort of budget therefore I see 0% change that sony suddenly changes GPU specs completely. It bet it already gives massive headaches to sony and nVidia to get millions todays top-of-the-line monster GPU produced in a month, gf7900GTX that is. Is that even possible?!

Reason why PS3 does not have G80:

- PS3 is already in mass production. G80 has to be ready now and yields have to be 60%+ with capabilities to produce 1.000.000 units in a month. I don't see that happening for latest and greates of GPUs. nVidia probably can't produce enough of them for even the handfull of H4rDc0rE gamers who pay 1000€ for GPU so how could they suddenly just cram 1M out of their arse and slap 50€ price tag on it!

[GamerG]

I would not get too excited about the RSX I doubt we'll be told its capabilities for quite a while.

Nvidia have stated that the RSX has been in mass production for some time now so It wont be the latest and greatest.

I think Sony are not too bothered about the RSX as all their "chips" are on the cell. Originally the plan was for the Cell to do the CPU functions and the graphics, then it changed to 2 cells one for CPU and one for graphics, when that was deemed unfeasable they plumped for RSX which was a pretty late addition.

From what I can gather the RSX is just a bit part player to take over particular functions from the Cell rarther than its powerful equal.

[HiX]

Just like the Xbox's GPU, which was a hybrid tech of Geforce 3 and 4, I suspect RSX is similar in a way that it is a hybrid tech of Geforce 7 and 8.

The only difference, of course is that CELL is able to assist it in graphics calculations.

[killzone_71]

Just like the Xbox's GPU, which was a hybrid tech of Geforce 3 and 4, I suspect RSX is similar in a way that it is a hybrid tech of Geforce 7 and 8.

The only difference, of course is that CELL is able to assist it in graphics calculations.Its a partnership between the CELL and the RSX one will have to assist each other to surpass its limits.

[archy141]

You're on the ball. A LOT of the development on RSX went into HDCP support as well. However, interfacing with the Flex I/O is a huge step for a monster processor like an NV47. If people knew how much of their graphical power got sucked up in the loss and latency on a PCI-e slot they would think twice about buying these $250 MoBos with SLI support.

It's like the difference in using the butt end of a screwdriver to smack a nail into a piece of wood and using said screwdriver to twist a screw in. Architectural differences between console and PC ONLY puts years of graphical expertise to its best use when it comes to closed systems.

This is why I get a good laugh out of people who take such great offense to the 360s GPU being compared to an R420... It's not a bad thing considering its on a closed system and has a rich feature set due to the unfied shaders and tool-set coming out from DX10 development.. But I'm just a rabid fanboy so what do I know?

Yes, the RSX is going to be a monster on the PS3, if not for the simple fact that Sony has never put as much power into the hands of their developers as they are doing now... People not expecting a big leap are not "red- E."


So Lefein what would be your educated guess as to why Sony decided to remove/hide the original RSX Spec's ?

[mrboo]

You're on the ball. A LOT of the development on RSX went into HDCP support as well. However, interfacing with the Flex I/O is a huge step for a monster processor like an NV47. If people knew how much of their graphical power got sucked up in the loss and latency on a PCI-e slot they would think twice about buying these $250 MoBos with SLI support.

It's like the difference in using the butt end of a screwdriver to smack a nail into a piece of wood and using said screwdriver to twist a screw in. Architectural differences between console and PC ONLY puts years of graphical expertise to its best use when it comes to closed systems.

This is why I get a good laugh out of people who take such great offense to the 360s GPU being compared to an R420... It's not a bad thing considering its on a closed system and has a rich feature set due to the unfied shaders and tool-set coming out from DX10 development.. But I'm just a rabid fanboy so what do I know?

Yes, the RSX is going to be a monster on the PS3, if not for the simple fact that Sony has never put as much power into the hands of their developers as they are doing now... People not expecting a big leap are not "red- E."


So Lefein what would be your educated guess as to why Sony decided to remove/hide the original RSX Spec's ?

The same reason they did'nt reveal anything about PS2's GS.

[archy141]

The same reason they did'nt reveal anything about PS2's GS.

The fact is they detailed the RSX down to the exact frequency at E2005 & than it all disappeared from paper/presentations leaving an obvious gaping whole & people questioning why & where did the specifications go.

I have some sound reasons why this could be (non G80 consiracy related) but don't want to put words into mouth.


Archy

[mrboo]

The same reason they did'nt reveal anything about PS2's GS.

The fact is they detailed the RSX down to the exact frequency at E2005 & than it all disappeared from paper/presentations leaving an obvious gaping whole & people questioning why & where did the specifications go.

I have some sound reasons why this could be (non G80 consiracy related) but don't want to put words into mouth.


Archy

They have spent that much money on Cell that they dont want the lime light took away from it, and releasing RSX spec's would do that.

It was the same with PS2, if they released detailed specs for the GS it would of took the lime light on the EE and Sony spent to much money on the EE just have it forgotten because of the GPU.

[archy141]

Okay heard your thoughts on the matter. Now lets wait for Lefein's

[HazeGotIt]

There's really no conspiracy... The RSX is going to be around the same strength as a GeForece 7800GTX-7900GTX in terms of raw power, but it'll be able to do things that a 7800GTX-7900GTX will only dream of doing in a game, this is because the RSX will be in a closed environment, and the developers will be able to better utilize the hardware and come up with all sorts of "shortcuts", e.g. nAo32 ;).

Exactly, this is something ALOT of people fail to realize.

[G_H_G]

i just dont see why sony would pay more than the original price for the RSX (correct?) just for an upgrade or re-working of it. Like the other guy- Makeitlookreal i think, said: They have buisness logic and financial restraints.

That was my reponse to the poster.

What if Sony paid NVIDIA to make RSX which was always - G80 ?
What if the specs drawn up at E2005 were just there to buy time & let MS release XBOX360 so they could measure up the competition first.

If it is simply just 7800/7900 derivative, than do you really belive Sony can invest in this console for 10 years ? There (NVIDIA/SONY) statement of most powerful GPU was a marketing lie from the start ?

When NVIDIA created GPU for the XBOX they made one that lasted & outpaced PC's 1-2 years. I would think they are going to deliver something on the same basis of advancements for the PS3.

It just seems wrong to take a current PC GFX chip & trim it to fit a console which has a BOTH NEXTGEN CPU & NEXTGEN MEDIA PLAYER that is supposed to be around for 10 years. Just doesn't add well.




Archy
The nvidia GPU in the xbox was a geforce3 on steroids, in a time when they sold Geforce4's

This whole 10 years thing is beginning to annoy me. This technology will not last 10 years. It's plain and simple. In 10 years, technology will have improved so much that the PS3 will be outdated and long forgotten. The whole 10 years thing is just a marketing gimmick.
Exactly, sony is just one giant marketing gimmick(In other words hype machine, they sure talk about how invincible the PS3 is, how $600 is cheap, and show pre rendered videos)

and techniqually the PS3 is already outdated, as is the xbox360....PC hardware just moves that fast

Err, how is it a marketing gimmick when the PS1 lasted for that amount of time and the PS2 is set to last that amount of time? 10 years doesn't mean 'no PS4 for another 10 years'. It just means they will keep supporting the platform even after the new one comes out. At least they are not forcing people to upgrade their console through dropping all support for the old one when a new one comes out.

And to whoever said the RSX is a 7600GT, :lol: :lol: :lol: .

[The House]

well of course the Xbox fans are going to vote on the weakest one because they want it to be and Sony fans are going to vote for the highest one possible.

it looks like we wil have to wait until TGS.

[archy141]

Does anyone know if the latest developer kits are shipping final builds of Cell & RSX ?

At E2006 we heard rumours that the kits were using various NVIDIA solutions including Dual 7900's. I wonder what is being used in the newest kits to emulate RSX if it is still not in there.



Archy

[G_H_G]

The final development kits are/have been shipped now. They will include the finalised RSX in them.

[archy141]

The final development kits are/have been shipped now. They will include the finalised RSX in them.

Is that 100% offical ? Can you point me to a source that confirms this ? Maybe a dev at beyond3d ?


Thanks



Archy

[wotter]

Does anyone know if the latest developer kits are shipping final builds of Cell & RSX ?



Final Cell/RSX were ready end March.

There was a slide that showed it.
March: Cell final , RSX final , BD-Drive proto , Controller concept

End May: Cell final , RSX final , BD-Drive final , Controller final

[archy141]

Does anyone know if the latest developer kits are shipping final builds of Cell & RSX ?



Final Cell/RSX were ready end March.

There was a slide that showed it.
March: Cell final , RSX final , BD-Drive proto , Controller concept

End May: Cell final , RSX final , BD-Drive final , Controller final

But than i recall reading final kits were finally going to ship in end of July.
So where is the truth ?

I have posed the question to devs on beyond3d & waiting for reply.
I hope no NDA will not stop them confirming the state of there development hardware.



Archy

[wotter]

Btw, G80 will have 32 pixel pipelines and 16 vertex + geometry shaders. But it isn't at 80nm, but at 90nm. Nvidia doesn't want to risk the shrinkage. Acording to the Inq, G80 is taped out and Nvidia is ready to begin production.

[archy141]

Btw, G80 will have 32 pixel pipelines and 16 vertex + geometry shaders. But it isn't at 80nm, but at 90nm. Nvidia doesn't want to risk the shrinkage. Acording to the Inq, G80 is taped out and Nvidia is ready to begin production.

I read that earlier but knowing it was Inquirer..

Talk about timing. Its due for release this year, meaning it must have been on NVIDIA's development plans when Sony approached them for a GPU.
This is not something you get ready overnight.

Also this GPU is a little bizzare HYBRID because although it has DX10 compliant feature set such as shader model 4, it does not use neccessary unified processing as is specified by microsoft for DX10 cards & Vista.

Whether Sony bought this technology from them or kept to the G70 remains to be seen ( I know very wishful thinking ;) ).


Now for some fun i'm going to add fuel to the fire.

Remember the NVIDIA CEO's quotes "Postponing the PS3 was a master stroke"

When i first read the interview i thought it was a very strange comment - almost out of context. What could be so masterful about delaying the console release & eventually delivering it with exactly same specs that are obviously no longer quite as edge cutting? All to do with timing & availability of hardware i guess.


Come on you know i got you all drooling.. apart from XBOX fanboys sweating.. khee



Archy

[mrboo]

My guess :

90nm version of the 7800GTX with the slight pipeline revisions that the 7900 has. PCI-E has been removed in favor of Flexi/o. Extra cache for shader instruction's and various things. Maybe some revised version of Turbo cache to help with getting texture's from XDR.

[archy141]

Out of curiosity i did a little scavenge on the Inquirer on G80.
Came up with:



Nvidia's G80 has HDCP inside

No Silicon Image chip needed

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33174

HDCP stands for High bandwidth Digital Content Protection and it is a video version of DRM. That is the easiest way to describe it. It will be a necessity for playing Blu Ray disks over HDMI.

Before the G80 GPU NVIDIA were using a third party chip by Silicom Image to carry outthe HDCP.

The HDCP is something that the PS3 will have to have to play the protected BluRay movies etc. Most likely we will not have G80 inside the PS3 but something thats quite similar to it. Another specification in common with RSX.


Archy

[mrboo]

Out of curiosity i did a little scavenge on the Inquirer on G80.
Came up with:



Nvidia's G80 has HDCP inside

No Silicon Image chip needed

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33174

HDCP stands for High bandwidth Digital Content Protection and it is a video version of DRM. That is the easiest way to describe it. It will be a necessity for playing Blu Ray disks over HDMI.

Before the G80 GPU NVIDIA were using a third party chip by Silicom Image to carry outthe HDCP.

The HDCP is something that the PS3 will have to have to play the protected BluRay movies etc. Most likely we will not have G80 inside the PS3 but something thats quite similar to it. Another specification in common with RSX.


Archy

HDCP has been put on hold and wont come into effect until about 2011.

[Aleman]

Remember that the PS3 was supposed to be launched in Spring. I don't think they would be able to drastically change the specs in ~6 months or so, so it's probably similar to the E3 2005 specs. Not that that is a bad thing...

[Guilty Bystander]

It could just be a G71 @550MHz with it's memory interface split two work with both XDRAM and GDDR3.
Or it could be an almost G80 just like the X Chip in the Xbox 1 was an almost NV25.

The first one would be weaker than the Xenos and second one would be about on par (considering the Xenos is an almost R600).

[WelshBluebird]

It say its probably possible, but I doubt it.
I'd probably guess it would be a Geforce 7 based GPU, with some of the techs used in the 8 series. Although we won't know for sure until at least TGS

[archy141]

HDCP has been put on hold and wont come into effect until about 2011.

Yes i am aware of that. The HDCP technology is not on hold
but encryption of BluRay movies is.

There are TV's supporting this technology in the UK already.

So it will kick back in 4 years. That was agreed by industry due to lack of equipment out there supporting HDCP including older televisions. But it will be back on track & PS3 will have it ready to go.. Definately the Premium with HDMI 1.3 which is being targeted for home cinema enthusiasts buy.

In fact i don't think the standard PS3 will support HDCP as it does not have digital output like HDMI/DVI (like xbox360) -so be warned & invest wisely.






Archy

[Ballz2TheWallz]

It could just be a G71 @550MHz with it's memory interface split two work with both XDRAM and GDDR3.
Or it could be an almost G80 just like the X Chip in the Xbox 1 was an almost NV25.

The first one would be weaker than the Xenos and second one would be about on par (considering the Xenos is an almost R600).
The GPU in the xbox was not almost an NV25, it was a geforce ti500 with extra clock and instruction sets

[archy141]

It could just be a G71 @550MHz with it's memory interface split two work with both XDRAM and GDDR3.
Or it could be an almost G80 just like the X Chip in the Xbox 1 was an almost NV25.

The first one would be weaker than the Xenos and second one would be about on par (considering the Xenos is an almost R600).

Sorry to disagree but you gotta be kidding. . lol

IF the RSX did share G80's features like Shader Model 4..
Xenos will be BLOWN OUT OF THE PICTURE completely. History..
It would be a GPU commendable as the CELL.


Nvidia Tests G80 Graphics Processing Unit.
Nvidia Receives First G80 Silicon, Says Web-Site

Category: Video

by Anton Shilov

[ 07/03/2006 | 09:09 AM ]

Nvidia Corp., a leading supplier of discrete graphics processing units, had reportedly received the first working samples of its next-generation high-end chip code-named G80. It usually takes several months before the chip is ready to be produced in volume, but if everything goes as expected, the firm may be ready with its first DirectX 10-compatible chip by fall.

According to a news-story at The Inquirer web-site, Nvidia had received a working sample of the G80 processor back two weeks ago. The web-site claims that this means that Nvidia will be able to launch the new product as soon as in September, 2006, even though, two months is too short timeframe to fully test the chip and ramp up the production.

The first working sample of a chip carries A0 revision, while companies usually launch A2 revisions commercially. It usually takes several – up to 10 – weeks to build a new chip revision, which means that it is unlikely that the G80 would be production-ready by September.

Right now Nvidia does not need a really new product to be made as fast as possible, as currently the firm has the fastest single-card offering on the market – GeForce 7950 GX2, which offers higher-performance than ATI Technologies’ Radeon X1900 XTX. Nevertheless, the company hopes to outstrip ATI and offer the world’s first DirectX 10-compatible graphics chip. Currently, according to the report, Nvidia hopes to have “six-to-eight-week lead over ATI with its new chip”.

Specifications of the G80 chip are not clear. Some sources indicate that Nvidia’s first DirectX 10 chip will incorporate 48 pixel shader processors and an unknown number of vertex shader/geometry shader processors. The Inquirer, however, claims that the G80 has 32 pixel and 16 vertex and geometry shader processors.

Nvidia Corp. does not comment on unreleased products.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20060703090833.html

As i said before i really don't think we will get G80. But we might get a customised G70 that has the technology of G80.
In fact it may well be the end product of customising/evolving the G70 for PS3 has created the G80.


Continue dreaming folks.. i am..


Archy

[Ballz2TheWallz]

Continue dreaming folks.. i am..


Archy
Glad you acknowledge you are dreaming atleast.

[razorblade416]

Well, devs kits that were said to be "final" could always change. :wink: Especially with the delay to November.

[archy141]

Continue dreaming folks.. i am..


Archy
Glad you acknowledge you are dreaming atleast.

Practice what i preach "KEEP IT REAL"

As it stands anything is possible with RSX until a developer tells us what GPU is in his Final Dev Kit or Sony let's it out.

No one can say with certainty what the RSX is going to be.
The logic & arguments are there & thus the possibilities i pointed out.



Archy

[BMN_PS_Fan_35]

It was July 2005 when XBox360 devs got the GPU that was used for launch, so Sony should have to do it very soon if not already.

[Ballz2TheWallz]

Continue dreaming folks.. i am..


Archy
Glad you acknowledge you are dreaming atleast.

Practice what i preach "KEEP IT REAL"

As it stands anything is possible with RSX until a developer tells us what GPU is in his Final Dev Kit or Sony let's it out.

No one can say with certainty what the RSX is going to be.
The logic & arguments are there & thus the possibilities i pointed out.



Archy
Developers have told us that the RSX is weaker in terms of over all power then the Xenos, so that discredits some of these "Theory's" already.

We also know for a fact that the RSX has better shader performance then the Xenos.

[mrboo]

Continue dreaming folks.. i am..


Archy
Glad you acknowledge you are dreaming atleast.

Practice what i preach "KEEP IT REAL"

As it stands anything is possible with RSX until a developer tells us what GPU is in his Final Dev Kit or Sony let's it out.

No one can say with certainty what the RSX is going to be.
The logic & arguments are there & thus the possibilities i pointed out.



Archy
DeveloperS have told us that the RSX is weaker in terms of over all power then the Xenos, so that discredits some of these "Theory's" already.

We also know for a fact that the RSX has better shader performance then the Xenos.

Care to name them?

[XSpike]

Whatever sony does with the grapfics card, they did spend tons of money on it, and why they are hidding the RSX specs is pretty odd but even if sony doesnt change it from what they had PS3 will still be a awesome console.

Sony thinks ps3 can last for 10 years? you just probably use it for blu-ray on your high-def cheap 1080i/p TV screen, unless they have done something to the grapfics card. I would use my ps3 for a blu-ray player in a few years.

[archy141]

Developers have told us that the RSX is weaker in terms of over all power then the Xenos, so that discredits some of these "Theory's" already.

We also know for a fact that the RSX has better shader performance then the Xenos.

Yes please be kind enough to point us to your source of developer with
Developers Kit using finalised RSX & CELL hardware.

Come on ... enlighten us all & we can than end this thread.



Archy

[WASHIMUL]

xenos is clearly outgunned by 7900GTX in all areas....look at the fringes of the GUN.....as for the xbox 360 version they are not even visible.....compare that to the high end pc version with less powerful CPU(intel core 2 duo extreme)

xenos as we know is r420 based GPU.............a very little amount of money was spent on its R&D by MS.......

stop comparing something far weaker to r600.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6154261/index.html

even the mid-ranged GPU beats xenos meaning it might be even less powerful than 7600.............for proof look at the textures on the wheels.

clearly xenos is maxed out

[Aleman]

xenos is clearly outgunned by 7900GTX in all areas....look at the fringes of the GUN.....as for the xbox 360 version they are not even visible.....compare that to the high end pc version with less powerful CPU(intel core 2 duo extreme)

You're judging the Xenos's power based on a current gen port. :no

[WASHIMUL]

there is no port or anything involved ....

the game was built simultaneously for the 2 platforms....and porting cannot blur/fuzz the image of the characters

it is just tht XENOS is not powerful.......tht is why you have such a poor display

[Aleman]

there is no port or anything involved ....

the game was built simultaneously for the 2 platforms....and porting cannot blur/fuzz the image of the characters

it is just tht XENOS is not powerful.......tht is why you have such a poor display

GUN is a current gen port. If you honestly believe that this is not a port:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11226_7-6400489-5.html

then I'm not going to argue with you anymore.

[HiX]

there is no port or anything involved ....

the game was built simultaneously for the 2 platforms....and porting cannot blur/fuzz the image of the characters

it is just tht XENOS is not powerful.......tht is why you have such a poor display

GUN is a current gen port. If you honestly believe that this is not a port:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11226_7-6400489-5.html

then I'm not going to argue with you anymore.

I agree with Aleman. It was just a port. Xenos is capable of much much more than that.

Prepare to be blown away by Halo 3's visuals.

[Knuckles126]

Well devs did say the card is a shader monster so if it can do Shader Model 4 then heck yes it is.
It can't do SM4.0, I'm willing to put my life on the line over it, sony would have been bragging by now

Have we not forgotten 7xxx series failed SM3.0
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=27084
Speaking of that, if the card was "uber awesome" like alot of people think it is, Sony would be bragging their asses off about it...which leads me to believe it's nothing that special.


there is no port or anything involved ....

the game was built simultaneously for the 2 platforms....and porting cannot blur/fuzz the image of the characters

it is just tht XENOS is not powerful.......tht is why you have such a poor display
Are you serious? It was a port smart one, I have the game on Xbox. :lol:

Lets see, we have GRAW, Gears of War, Mass Effect, Halo 3, etc...but all those games have amazing graphics because Xenos is not powerful, right? :lol:

[left_senseless]

oblivion and prey and several other 360/pc multi platform games looked better on a pc running a 78-7900gtx.

i am not saying that the Xenos is weak by any means. but it does seem obvious that it is no 7900gtx.

[mrboo]

oblivion and prey and several other 360/pc multi platform games looked better on a pc running a 78-7900gtx.

i am not saying that the Xenos is weak by any means. but it does seem obvious that it is no 7900gtx.

And its not clear if RSX is either, so whats ur point?

[left_senseless]

the rsx has to be at least a 7800gtx since that card has been in the dev kits. if you develop your code on a stronger system then it will have serious frame rate issues when implementing said code on final hardware of lesser capability.

[Grym]

Absolutely not a G80 based card but not a 7800GT either. Something in beetween is my guess.

[Ballz2TheWallz]

the rsx has to be at least a 7800gtx since that card has been in the dev kits. if you develop your code on a stronger system then it will have serious frame rate issues when implementing said code on final hardware of lesser capability.
Dev kits literally run an RSX dip****

Infact, they have since JUNE2005(when the 7800GTX LAUNCHED, there for dev kits never ran the 7800gtx)
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/8565/PlayStation-3-SDK-Revealed-First-Pictures-Spotted/

only thing the dev kits ran as far as desktop gpus was 2x6800gt's before they started shipping rsx GPUs

[dexvex]

the rsx has to be at least a 7800gtx since that card has been in the dev kits. if you develop your code on a stronger system then it will have serious frame rate issues when implementing said code on final hardware of lesser capability.
Dev kits literally run an RSX dip****

Infact, they have since JUNE2005(when the 7800GTX LAUNCHED, there for dev kits never ran the 7800gtx)
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/8565/PlayStation-3-SDK-Revealed-First-Pictures-Spotted/

only thing the dev kits ran as far as desktop gpus was 2x6800gt's before they started shipping rsx GPUs

nvidia has confirmed in gameinformer that a 7800gtx were used in ps3 kits .
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/635/635630/ps-meeting-2005-sonys-ps3-schedule-20050721020712940.jpg
this stopped in december
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/635/635630/ps-meeting-2005-sonys-ps3-schedule-20050721020716581.jpg

[mrboo]

Ballz2TheWallz You never did name those so called developerS who said RSX is weaker then Xenos? Why? Is it because you lied?

[G_H_G]

the rsx has to be at least a 7800gtx since that card has been in the dev kits. if you develop your code on a stronger system then it will have serious frame rate issues when implementing said code on final hardware of lesser capability.
Dev kits literally run an RSX dip****

Infact, they have since JUNE2005(when the 7800GTX LAUNCHED, there for dev kits never ran the 7800gtx)
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/8565/PlayStation-3-SDK-Revealed-First-Pictures-Spotted/

only thing the dev kits ran as far as desktop gpus was 2x6800gt's before they started shipping rsx GPUs

So its 6800gt's now? Yesterday you were saying is was 2 7600gt's :lol: . Do you really ahve a clue what you are going on about or is it just your bias transfering to the keyboard as BS?

[mrboo]

the rsx has to be at least a 7800gtx since that card has been in the dev kits. if you develop your code on a stronger system then it will have serious frame rate issues when implementing said code on final hardware of lesser capability.
Dev kits literally run an RSX dip****

Infact, they have since JUNE2005(when the 7800GTX LAUNCHED, there for dev kits never ran the 7800gtx)
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/8565/PlayStation-3-SDK-Revealed-First-Pictures-Spotted/

only thing the dev kits ran as far as desktop gpus was 2x6800gt's before they started shipping rsx GPUs

So its 6800gt's now? Yesterday you were saying is was 2 7600gt's :lol: . Do you really ahve a clue what you are going on about or is it just your bias transfering to the keyboard as BS?

As far as i know the very early PS3 dev kits did have Sli'd 6800Ultra's in them.

[Ballz2TheWallz]

the rsx has to be at least a 7800gtx since that card has been in the dev kits. if you develop your code on a stronger system then it will have serious frame rate issues when implementing said code on final hardware of lesser capability.
Dev kits literally run an RSX dip****

Infact, they have since JUNE2005(when the 7800GTX LAUNCHED, there for dev kits never ran the 7800gtx)
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/8565/PlayStation-3-SDK-Revealed-First-Pictures-Spotted/

only thing the dev kits ran as far as desktop gpus was 2x6800gt's before they started shipping rsx GPUs

So its 6800gt's now? Yesterday you were saying is was 2 7600gt's :lol: . Do you really ahve a clue what you are going on about or is it just your bias transfering to the keyboard as BS?
I never said SHIT about 7600gt SLI's

And yeah it was probably 2x6800ultras, they are not very different cards

[DOGG]

If the RSX is G80 based, it's GG Xenos. :shock:

[Aleman]

"G80 based" doesn't mean much. What really matters is how many pipelines it has.

[Ballz2TheWallz]

Ballz2TheWallz You never did name those so called developerS who said RSX is weaker then Xenos? Why? Is it because you lied?
neversoft developer thank you very much

[mrboo]

"G80 based" doesn't mean much. What really matters is how many pipelines it has.

PS2 had 16 pipelines, thats the same as a 6800 Ultra and thats 12 more then the Original X-Box.

Still think pipeline counts are importnat?

[Ballz2TheWallz]

"G80 based" doesn't mean much. What really matters is how many pipelines it has.

PS2 had 16 pipelines, thats the same as a 6800 Ultra and thats 12 more then the Original X-Box.

Still think pipeline counts are importnat?
Cite your source

[mrboo]

Ballz2TheWallz You never did name those so called developerS who said RSX is weaker then Xenos? Why? Is it because you lied?
neversoft developer thank you very much

really? Ive never heard that, Care to provide a link to back-up your claim?

[EbonySeraphim]

Ballz2TheWallz:
You seriously need to stop flaming especially when you are indeed wrong, or your “point” has no relevance to who or what you’re arguing against.

left_senseless has some extremely valid points which seem to have sailed far past your comprehension level; or maybe you’re just being a fanboy and ignoring it. That link you provided is of a dev kit shipped over a year ago, running non-finalized versions of anything. Regardless of the label saying “RSX” it was only a symbol that was trying to represent similar functionality to be expected out of the final hardware. In fact, any dev kit final or non-final is not the actual system. They will always aim to be slower than the original hardware because if it was faster in any way than the hardware, developers would have to scale down the performance of what they are putting on the dev kits to match what consumers would be using.

As a software developer, it’s obvious that you can’t do accurate load testing until you get on production hardware or pre-production hardware. Production hardware in this case is an actual PS3. Pre-production would be the development kits. Production hardware is always more powerful than the hardware “under” it which would be pre-production, development, integration, and testing hardware. That is the nature of software development and is done purposefully so developers can see the bottlenecks sooner than later in the cycle. If something isn’t a bottleneck in production hardware, they’ll just let it run slow in the pre-production hardware. They are only debugging the game anyways and can deal with slow frame rates. Gamers, as an end consumer, do not what this.

In fact, a huge indicator of this dev kit discrepancy was a diagram of the final PS3 dev kit specs next to the PS3 actual hardware specs. While the dev kit had more RAM (for debugging information and variables), the bus speed between the Cell and RSX was much much slower than on the actual PS3. Specifically, the bus between the RSX and Cell was running at the speed of PCI-E 16x at 4GB/s, and not the 35GB/s FlexIO link on the actual PS3 hardware.

The 7800GTX has been picked most likely because it shares the same functional abilities of the RSX for the most part. Specifically the number of shader pipelines offered is said to be the same as the RSX. The 7900 most definitely offers certain features that aren’t in the RSX that Sony wouldn’t want developers using, thinking that consumers had it available on their systems. After the baseline functional abilities are matched, then the aim for dev kits is to offer a slightly representative prediction on how fast the game will be running on the actual hardware. For that, the goal is always to aim lower than the actual hardware as I said before.

Does this mean that the RSX godlike compared to the 7800GTX and more in line with nVidia’s next generation? Probably not. I’m not here to try to convince you of that, and this thread is only speculating that the RSX may be closer to nVidia’s next generation of cards. Honestly, I think its wishful thinking but this is only a speculation thread. My gut feeling is that the functional abilities of the RSX are probably in line with the 7800, but it clearly has a horsepower edge since its clocked higher and built specifically for one system. The fact that you come in here spreading your most negative opinions and poorly discovered researched as false “facts” shows how truly fanboyish you are.

Do the world a favor Ballz2TheWallz, and stop playing games.

[Ballz2TheWallz]

Ballz2TheWallz You never did name those so called developerS who said RSX is weaker then Xenos? Why? Is it because you lied?
neversoft developer thank you very much

really? Ive never heard that, Care to provide a link to back-up your claim?
Even if there was a public neversoft announcment of neversoft saying this people would assume they are on microsofts payroll

[DOGG]

Ballz2TheWallz You never did name those so called developerS who said RSX is weaker then Xenos? Why? Is it because you lied?
neversoft developer thank you very much

really? Ive never heard that, Care to provide a link to back-up your claim?
Even if there was a public neversoft announcment of neversoft saying this people would assume they are on microsofts payroll

Why don't you quit talking trash and give us real proof. If there is any. :roll:

[Ballz2TheWallz]

THIS IS A SPECULATION THREAD, talk about dumbass hippocrates

[mrboo]

"G80 based" doesn't mean much. What really matters is how many pipelines it has.

PS2 had 16 pipelines, thats the same as a 6800 Ultra and thats 12 more then the Original X-Box.

Still think pipeline counts are importnat?
Cite your source

Source? :lol:

http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000286

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/7497

If you want anymore find them yourself with google :roll:

[mrboo]

THIS IS A SPECULATION THREAD, talk about *expletive deleted* hippocrates

I think someone's upset because he got caught telling lie's :lol: :lol:

[Aleman]

"G80 based" doesn't mean much. What really matters is how many pipelines it has.

PS2 had 16 pipelines, thats the same as a 6800 Ultra and thats 12 more then the Original X-Box.

Still think pipeline counts are importnat?
Cite your source

Source? :lol:

http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000286

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/7497

If you want anymore find them yourself with google :roll:

That's comparing apples to oranges. When you're comparing Nvidia cards together, the biggest differentiator is the number of pipelines. That's what's largely responsible for the difference between a 7600 GT and a 7900GT.

[mrboo]

"G80 based" doesn't mean much. What really matters is how many pipelines it has.

PS2 had 16 pipelines, thats the same as a 6800 Ultra and thats 12 more then the Original X-Box.

Still think pipeline counts are importnat?
Cite your source

Source? :lol:

http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000286

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/7497

If you want anymore find them yourself with google :roll:

That's comparing apples to oranges. When you're comparing Nvidia cards together, the biggest differentiator is the number of pipelines. That's what's largely responsible for the difference between a 7600 GT and a 7900GT.

Its more to the point that there's more to pipelines then just sheer a sheer number of them.

Even though PS2 has ALOT more pipe then X-box it still did'nt help. 360 is another case point it has 48 pipes but it is'nt as fast as a 24 pipe 7900GTX. As i said there more to pipelines then just how many of them you have.

[Aleman]

I know that. That's why I said "When you're comparing Nvidia cards together..."

If we want to know how the RSX performs compared to other Nvidia cards, the most important piece of info is how many pipes it has.

Based on the 300 mil transistor count, I'm guessing it's 24 pixel shaders + 8 vertex shaders, which I believe is the same as both a 7800 and 7900. Next up is core clock and memory bandwidth.

RSX core clock is 550 MHz. 7900GTX is 650 MHz and 7800 GTX is 430 MHz.

Sources:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130279
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814143036

Both the 7800GTX and 7900GTX use 256-bit GDDR3 memory that is clocked higher than the 700 MHz 128-bit GDDR3 in the PS3. That means that both cards should offer a little over twice the memory bandwidth that the RSX has (not including the XDR memory in the PS3).

So where do I think the RSX stands? Somewhere between a 7900GTX and 7800GTX. That's similar to how the Xbox GPU was... it was between a Geforce 4 and 3.

[mrboo]

I know that. That's why I said "When you're comparing Nvidia cards together..."

If we want to know how the RSX performs compared to other Nvidia cards, the most important piece of info is how many pipes it has.

And clock speed and ALU's per pipe aswel ;)

[Nstriker20]

Even on nvidia web-site there is little information on the RSX. Leaving you to wonder if they are waiting for a specific time to release the final specification.

[EbonySeraphim]

THIS IS A SPECULATION THREAD, talk about *expletive deleted* hippocrates
You can speculate on certain things because everyone understands that you are just wishful thinking and what you say is false. With speculation comes reason for it, and some speculation can be judged as more substantial or likely than others. You cannot speculate or make up what developers have said to try to concoct concrete evidence. I should hope you know this or else you're on the path to getting a bunch of F's in high school and college research papers.

Btw, I take you ignoring my previous post was an acceptance that your prior statements were rash and malformed?

[archy141]

Okay time to RECAP as i have done more thinking & also to wind up the XBOX Fanboys trolling here..


YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ;)


The RSX being a G80 Derivative is very possible.

I know it may sound a little far fetched but let me explain how & why I believe that the RSX is a lot more than what was on the E3 2005 spec sheet.

Sony has repeatedly said that they want to build True Nextgen System that will last 10 years – i.e. high long term investment plan.

Sony spent silly amounts of money to create a NextGen CPU
Sony spent loadsa money to create a NextGen BluRay Media
Sony spent bags of money to get NextGen HDMI1.3 Connectivity

Sony did not spent wads of money to get yesterdays NV47 core glued to Flexio.

The N47 GPU part does not fit at all with the selection of other truly NextGen components. There is nothing NextGen about it today & hardly back in spring.

Having followed every piece of PS3 news for over a year I took a step back to look at the whole history of events that unfolded pre E3 2005 to post E3 2006.

If you do this you will realise something very apparent that we fail to notice when we look at the daily picture - Sony NEVER had a Spring 06 release in mind.
It was impossible even if they had wanted to consider it as they were clearly way behind on there PS3 roadmap with too many milestones still to cover.

Sony have made so many changes between spring & now that it makes you realise spring was never meant to be. The PS3 has evolved & taken so much more shape since its expected release date, that it really does look like Fall 06 was always the intended release date. Even the dev kits seem to be in good supply with a few months to go.

Sony did not fudge up there project management by this much.
A reschedule to fall 06 for release was not just because of BluRay or HDMI as otherwise everything else could have been polished & ready to go apart from these components. Instead lots of things were & are still being changed or completed e.g. controller, case, OS (XMB/Internet browser/Live), RSX chips apparently rolling out just recently & not pre spring if they were to make it into a console.

I believe Sony has been masterfully applying Sun Tzu - The Art of War in there business.

They always intended to release PS3 around Fall 06.
They bought time with loyal fans by selling them not so far Spring 06 release date & they did a great job – I’m still here !

I believe the RSX figures they gave from NVIDIA were arbitrary for a top GPU that was going to hit around Spring 06 (7800). This was a strategic move by Sony to keep the fans satisfied, media in frenzied & MOST importantly to force there competitors to respond & bare there console secrets - XBOX360 GPU specs etc.
It was executed brilliantly!

It would have been utterly stupid business sense for Sony to reveal the true RSX spec’s & give the competition the heads up. Especially knowing the XBOX360 had not been released yet & was still possible to changes. Better to lull the competition into false security.

Noticed how RSX specs disappeared from all Sony presentations?
The values they gave at E3 05 served there temporary purpose. The real values will probably be divulged when they are good & ready to strike a blow.

Sony have since had plenty of time to weigh up the competition & make changes where necessary.. Motion controller.. Free online offering.. Standard HD :D etc
To date they have addressed individual strengths in there rivals console & responded by making the necessary changes to better if not equal them.
Sony is well aware of the XBOX360’s 2 strengths – Live & Xenos & they will surely counter attack them also.

It’s clear that Sony has lot riding on the success of PS3 due to the massive investment made. They seem to be deadly serious to win this war & they will not Microsoft’s XBOX360 get away with it.

The RSX CANNOT be what was on paper at E3 05.
That is plainly illogical if you apply Sony’s though of mind to date.

I believe they will deliver some kind of GPU that will deliver all they spoke of at E3 05 & more. Sony will definitely try to better Xenos without a shadow of doubt. They will have been listening to all the positives & negatives by developers on Xenos so that they can weigh it up against the RSX & make changes if need be.

First of all I was thinking like many hopefuls that it’s a custom built NVIDIA 7800/7900 derivative. But than the other day I came across details of a new NVIDIA GPU – The G80.

If we had a user requirements document for the RSX - the G80 would fit it like a glove.


-G80 will be most powerful GPU out when released & agree with what Sony/NVIDIA proclaimed of RSX

-G80 is DX10 & Shader Model 4 compliant which will increase its life span & make Sony’s ambitious 10 years for PS3 more realistic

-G80 does not use a Unified Processor like RSX even though it is DX10.All DX10 cards are supposed to use Unified Processors according to MS spec. Seems they were developing more for a system like PS3 (non unified processor reuirement) than Vista.

-G80 first NVIDIA GPU to support in built HDCP (Must for HD BluRay Movies over HDMI) as well as HDMI (wish I could confirm it was HDMI 1.3)

-G80 uses GDDR4 memory

Another possible way to look at the G80 is that it is the end product of NVIDIA's customisation that went into a G70 core to make the RSX. G80 is the RSX + more for the PC market & RSX is the custom G80 for the PS3

You have to admit that really does tally up with what we were sold as RSX.
In fact it is a more similar to the Xenos in design but with full DX10 + Shader model 4 support and no Unified Processor. Sony new back at E305 that the Xenos was part DX10 compliant. They knew than what they were up against & would not have settled for anything inferior. I’m sure they are aware of he value of investing in a DX10 Shader 4 card if they wanted it to last in there console for a decade. Would they really settle for DX9 GPU knowing what was around the corner (MS Vista pushing for DX10) ?

Maybe MS did go to NVIDIA first for Xenos but they were not able to deliver a Unified Processor GPU in time & cost terms. I believe MS have personal interests in Unified Processor architecture as it is part of Vista’s DX10 GPU requirement. It makes sense that MS would have wanted to have similar GPU’s in Vista & XBOX360 to make PC port easier & cross develop with XNA.

Sony on the other hand did not have requirements for Unified Processor & were able to contract NVIDIA to build RSX with DX10 + Shader 4.

The G80 will most definitely SMOKE the Xenos & outlast it with full its full DX10 & shader model 4 support. This truly is a GPU that you can see worthy of being in the PS3 with the CELL, BluRay & HDMI1.3. Not very hard to picture at all.

Most likely we will not end up with the G80 but instead some kind of custom derivative that shares its feature set & integrates well into the PS3.

Sony could put all of my logic & reasoning down the pan & the RSX turn out to be nothing like the G80 but I’m 100% convinced at worst case scenario it will not have the E305 spec’s. It will most definitely be more than we were told.


NVIDIA CEO : Postponing the PS3 was a master stroke




Archy

EDIT

* G80 specs known so far:
32 pixel pipelines and 16 vertex and geometry shaders.
This is all that we know thus far but we guess that the core clock speed may be in the 750MHz region.
90nm in size
Out in Fall06

[The_One]

The RSX being a G80 Derivative is very possible. I laugh at the possibility... But hey, to each their own :lol:.

Noticed how RSX specs disappeared from all Sony presentations?
The values they gave at E3 05 served there temporary purpose. The real values will probably be divulged when they are good & ready to strike a blow. Or maybe it just blows so much that it's not worth mentioning :roll:.

-G80 is DX10 & Shader Model 4 compliant which will increase its life span & make Sony’s ambitious 10 years for PS3 more realistic Ugh, did you not read what both myself AND Ebony have wrote? Shader Models are arbitrary FEATURE-SETS. Why do you think current gen graphics cards (and older ones, too) can support "DX10" by just updating the drivers?

It's not that big of a deal, really, especially when DirectX won't even be used on the console front. The sole reason why DirectX exist in the PC front is to act as a communication layer between Windows and ALL the devices on the mobo (okay, "ALL" is an exaggeration, but you get what I mean). Consoles doesn't have this problem, it's a closed box, the developers doesn't need this arbitrary layer of API, and thus there is no reason for either GPU (Xenos and RSX) to be "SM" compliant nor "DX10" compliant.

On top of that, what's the big deal? I'm, for one, will NOT be disappointed if I got a GeForce 7800GTX or 7900GTX in a CLOSED BOX. Those cards are BEASTS, and I can only drool in terms of the possibilities when used in conjunction with the CELL :D.

Postponing the PS3 was a master stroke Uh... Yeah... It gives them more time to reel out the bad news. Yup, master stroke alright :roll:.

[THEREALNEXTGEN]

MOD EDIT: Wow, I'm going blind. I took a quick look at Archy's avvy and I mistook it for yours. My apologies! - The_One

[fireras]

I have never heard about this G80 thing....I think I should google it.....anyways isn't DX10 supposed to be a big part of XNA which is M$ proprietary Dev Tools for Vista/360?

[arfi-gorgona-O]

So many unrealistic expectations...and the problem is,if people don't get what they wish for,its going to be Sony's fault..Keep it real please.

[The_One]

So many unrealistic expectations...and the problem is,if people don't get what they wish for,its going to be Sony's fault..Keep it real please. I agree, which is why I'm expecting the RSX to be a G7800GTX or 7900GTX equivalent in terms of raw power.

To expect anything more is... illogical, to put it mildly.

[jlippone]

G80/NV50 is the next chipset architecture from Nvidia.
It should be first big change since transition from NV30 to NV40.

IMHO,
RSX could have some features loaned from G80, perhaps more efficent ALUs, but I still belive that it will be mostly based to NV40-G70 architecture.

[The_One]

G80/NV50 is the next chipset architecture from Nvidia.
It should be first big change since transition from NV30 to NV40.

IMHO,
RSX could have some features loaned from G80, perhaps more efficent ALUs, but I still belive that it will be mostly based to NV40-G70 architecture. Yeah, but the thing was, the RSX was in development around 3 years ago. I don't know about you, but I doubt even nVidia themselves had any solid plans for the G80 back then!

[CaptHavok]

Put it this way if we go off of the statement from CEO Jen-Hsun Huang at E305 the RSX will be like the G70(7800 GTX) which does the stated 136 shader operations per clock.

But as that card was soon to be released later that year the sucessor the G71 which is the more likely canidate to the PS3 with a better clock speed.

Jen-Hsun did state that the PS3s GPU will be the most powerfull but that was in light that the PS3 was to be released in spring of 06 now if Jen-Hsun has something up his sleeve and the fact that sony only just recently aquired the die for the GPU and has been making them then it could possibly have been bumped to the G80 only time will tell.

[Dasimpse]

I don't expect we shall know any thing on the RSX period.

this is what i totally agree with!

[mrboo]

My guess :

90nm version of the 7800GTX with the slight pipeline revisions that the 7900 has. PCI-E has been removed in favor of Flexi/o. Extra cache for shader instruction's and various things. Maybe some revised version of Turbo cache to help with getting texture's from XDR.
I still think my guess is the most accurate :P

RSX has been in production for over 3 years, now im not computer scientist but i dont think it takes 3 years to add abit of extra cache and the Flexi/o to a GPU.


I don't expect we shall know any thing on the RSX period.

this is what i totally agree with!

I sad that on Page 2 :P

Please do not double post. - The_One

[..::D::..]

who cares about the RSX anymore really? I'd be happy enough if they announced a boost in Memory... But that's unlikely to happen to,

The best words I can say is... The PS3 is already a power house, people keep expecting more and more out of it... Just wait for any new announcements, and stop speculating things that hardly matter!

Seacrest out... :lol:

[jlippone]

G80/NV50 is the next chipset architecture from Nvidia.
It should be first big change since transition from NV30 to NV40.

IMHO,
RSX could have some features loaned from G80, perhaps more efficent ALUs, but I still belive that it will be mostly based to NV40-G70 architecture. Yeah, but the thing was, the RSX was in development around 3 years ago. I don't know about you, but I doubt even nVidia themselves had any solid plans for the G80 back then!
Not solid, but NV40 was released at Q2 2004.
It is more than likely they had started research and design for next gen part, while another team would do the refresh which is known as G70.

While it would be impossible to have full G80, it could be possible to improve some shortcomings of NV40/G70 series.
Something in line what NV2A was to NV20-25 and NV30.

[archy141]

Morning people,

I would like to reiterate what said I said the start of this thread. Like its heading suggests its is all based on SPECULATIONS & POSSIBILITIES so im sorry if it is making some of you upset or nervous.

Im not trying to raise peoples expectations of RSX so that they can just have a bigger fall from from it. I for one am still waiting to buy the PS3 whatever the RSX as i made my mind my mind up a long while on personal needs & requirements that it fullfilled. And this is is what all sensible people should be doing. Either you want the PS3 for the exclusive games or the combination of its exclussives & other media features that other consles don't have. Buying it purely because its Sony is purely stupid.

I belive even with the original spec'd RSX the PS3 will be a great gaming console there is no doubting this. The Cell teamed with the RSX will have formidable potential as we have already seen from many of the first launch titles.

But you can't discount some of the valid speculatoins i brought up. The RSX might go from alreadyGREAT GPU to a GREATER one. Its really a win win situation.

My earlier thoughts were pretty much summised by


Most likely we will not end up with the G80 but instead some kind of custom derivative that shares its feature set & integrates well into the PS3.


Sony could put all of my logic & reasoning down the pan & the RSX turn out to be nothing like the G80 but I’m 100% convinced at worst case scenario it will not have the E305 spec’s. It will most definitely be more than we were told.

If you read my full posting you will see why i came to my conclusions.
Its not all hopeless birthday wishes. There are good arguments for me to imply these possibilities - something people shouldn't be scared of.

People who are looking to buy the PS3 should have plenty to be happy with what it already offered. I'm on preorder postion #8 with gamestation :D



Archy

[Jugix]

I don't care if it (RSX) is a permedia2 GPU from my brothers amiga1200 blizzard GFX card. All I have to know is MGS4 GFX are possible with it and that is probably just a beginning.

Just my quarter of a dollar...

[archy141]

Yeah, but the thing was, the RSX was in development around 3 years ago. I don't know about you, but I doubt even nVidia themselves had any solid plans for the G80 back then!

I’m sure they must have had a roadmap with ideas for a GPU that is only now called G80.

NVIDIA specialises in the GPU industry & has been the tops for good reasons. They spend 700+ millions yearly on research & are no different to Intel & AMD with roadmaps of advancements.

Three years back they might not had the name G80 on paperwork but they most likely did have most technologies/featureset on paper. And if someone came shopping & prepared to pay for advanced development I’m sure they would have been up to it.

I can't really see them saying to Sony the best we will have sitting on our shelves in spring 06 is GPU RSX. They than went onto customise what basically is/was current PC GPU & made it work with the FLEXIO.. Voila Sony ! This is your RSX.

If you read my thread you will see Sony have been very PARTICULAR with every console component so why be different with the GPU ?
Let me Reiterate in case you skipped:

- CPU : Standard PowerPC single core but than Sony paid for customised 7 core solution making a true NextGen CPU
- BluRay : Out with the Old DVD & in with the most currently advanced Media storage offering the Next step in movie experiences
- HDMI 1.3 : They did not settle for regular HDMI or worse like MS no HDMI at all. First digital port to offer 48bit colour & advanced audio in one.
- Game pad : Possibly the least Nextgen of above but still it does give us something Nextgen with the Motion Sensor.

Now after reading that list how can anyone expect Sony to use off the shelf PC GPU & adapt it to work with FLEXIO. No logical sense prevails in this or they way they are doing there business in building there Nextgen Console.
Sony are the only ones that seem Truly committed to the words NEXTGEN or should i be saying MAD KEN.

They have delivered Nextgen component in every area of the console so why leave the GPU out ? Definitely not a case of Sony not spending or having money.

Lastly, like with the Cells creation Sony would have got there hands dirty with NVIDIA & had the GPU truly customised to there philosophy of NextGen. I bet NVIDIA's inclusion of HDMI & Built in HDCP support on the G80 has a lot to do with Sony having worked with NVIDIA. I just wish i could confirm that the HDMI is also 1.3. Likewise ATI is now ahead of NVIDIA on GPU's with Unified Processor because they worked with MS & it was a requirement of there’s.


Ugh, did you not read what both myself AND Ebony have wrote? Shader Models are arbitrary FEATURE-SETS. Why do you think current gen graphics cards (and older ones, too) can support "DX10" by just updating the drivers?

Sorry i'm a little lost on this one.. i can't seem to find your or EbonyS's point of view on this. Can you please point me to it.

Isn't just upgrading drivers of an older DX9 card to make it support DX10 far inferior than a having a true hardware DX10 card ?
Or are you saying that the new feature set of DX10 over DX9 is pretty much zero ? No worthy new effects etc ?

Archy

Please do not double post. - The_One

[mrboo]

Ugh, did you not read what both myself AND Ebony have wrote? Shader Models are arbitrary FEATURE-SETS. Why do you think current gen graphics cards (and older ones, too) can support "DX10" by just updating the drivers?

Sorry i'm a little lost on this one.. i can't seem to find your or EbonyS's point of view on this. Can you please point me to it.

Isn't just upgrading drivers of an older DX9 card to make it support DX10 far inferior than a having a true hardware DX10 card ?
Or are you saying that the new feature set of DX10 over DX9 is pretty much zero ? No worthy new effects etc ?

You hit the nail on the head then.

[Bhav]

On the flip side, there could be so much secrecy because RSX has been downgraded to something below the spec that was revealed at E3 2005...

[Smily0012]

On the flip side, there could be so much secrecy because RSX has been downgraded to something below the spec that was revealed at E3 2005...

Really hard to belive but anything is possible.

[archy141]

On the flip side, there could be so much secrecy because RSX has been downgraded to something below the spec that was revealed at E3 2005...

Sorry but thast just plain nonsense & illogical as it has no grounding what so ever.
The only flipside is we get exactly what was on the E3 2005 spec sheet.

I came up with my conclusions with well backed reasoning - its not a birthday wish listpulled out of a hat.

[xen]

I Agree with many points Archie raised in his post regarding the nature of information given to the public. Or at the moment the complete lack of information about the RSX.

I do agree that the spring launch was a Sony tactic to freeze the market as much as possible before PS3 release, and giving this perception gave customers a reason to wait for Sony next gen hardware. This should have been obvious after TGS05 having still no playable PS3 games (and therefore no big show to preview games before spring launch) no marketing, no preorders etc.

Of course this is what the public saw. I'm sure behind the scenes (and getting to my point) Sony would have informed its internal partners of the real schedule of fall 06, developers, hardware partners, manufactures etc. And work would continue with this schedule in mind.

Now if you focus on just the RSX i do feel it will its always been planned with this schedule in mind and should therefore benefit with having a development cycle similar to nvidia's next pc card the G80. Yes i do realise that RSX is now in manufacture but it could still include many tech improvements and technologies that were worked on in parallel during G80 development.

Then Kuturagi (and the press release) have always said that this was a JOINT effort between Sony and Nvidia. And i'd just like to know exactly what Sony learnt from their experiences with parallel graphic workstations (remember the 16x GS/EE workstations that ran the spirits within realtime). Did it give them a better idea on how to best approach such an architecture or did they think it wasn't the best approach for performance. Did their research require more experienced help to implement and make a reality (hence the Nvidia deal)

Also bare in mind that Nvidia have a strict policy never to talk about next gen technology until an official statement is released. The RSX could be just a year old 7800/7900 if so they might as well just release that info now or at E306 with the other bad press (PS3 price). Well not bad news really but not worth keeping such mundane info so secret. I mean can you imagine sony releaving it to be a 7800 after all this time everyone would be like yeah great and move on)

No, i feel the silence reinforces my believe that RSX includes unannounced tech that is new and will probably be revealed nearer G80 release. I also believe we are nearing Sony's full marketing campaign for PS3 which has to win over dubious consumers after all Sony's negative press and i think one of their marketing strengths will hopefully be a very powerful GPU (which could gain extra press from Nvidia's marketing if both gpus share some tech)

Now just some of my idle thoughts

Does RSX being based on NV47 bare any similarities to the fact that CELL is based on G5 (a stripped down one of course). Yes i'm thinking you gain something in both cases which is a solid base platform that has great support and many tools for developers to use AND a solid well understood foundation from which to build.......

What the Hell are these Parallel FP shader pipelines/processors that have been discussed in the past. Do they bare any resemblance to existing tech or are they something possibly new?

And going onto realtime performance for a second doesn't anyone find the fact that PS3 demos shown so far namely Motorstorm and Heavenly sword display scenes with fullscreen soft shadows, characters casting and receiving shadows well actually everything seemingly casting and receiving soft shadows, full screen motion blur + all the usual stuff HDR, tone mapping etc and all running (presumably unoptimised) above 30 fps.

These sort of effects must have huge performance penalties and its one thing that has stood out for me with PS3 games so far

(not saying this couldn't be done with other hardware its just i haven't seen this much usage at once and on incomplete software)

[archy141]

XEN thanks for your open minded input.

:D


Archy

[invisible_on_ice]

It's amazing how alot of you overhype things, and even flat deny evidence already shown, just for what you wish was in there. Yes, the RSX has been tight lipped by Sony. But most rational people can conclude it will have the same specs in E3 2005. Sony has been quiety becuase there is no reason to hype it. It is already becoming outdated. If Sony is smart, it will want people to judge the games instead. I have been saying for awhile, that the RSX is probally "nothing" Special. Maybe in 2005 it was a great graphics processor, but in 2006 it will be really outdated.

[archy141]

Maybe in 2005 it was a great graphics processor, but in 2006 it will be really outdated.

Well thanks for backing my point -unintentionally. If you feel that GPU was not Nextgen back in 2005 than why would Sony have picked it all as a NextGen component to go into a console for spring 2006 launch ?

Like i said earlier - Its crystal clear Sony have gone out of there way to selectively create Nextgen components to build there truly NextGen console .

This could only be mad Ken's vision & one I've started to think he is very serious about.



Thanks


Archy

[xen]

Your opinion obviously does stand as there is no conclusive proof either way. But dont you find it strange that the component that generates what most early adopters love the most (graphics) has been under such heavy silence.

As i've tried to say ealier if it is an unmodified 7800/7900 to fit with cell i'm sure such information could have been revealed many many months ago. Sony would have countered the fact thats its outdated pc tech by hyping the close relationship it has with Cell offering extra performance from SPUs and the extra bandwidth from the link to XDR offering upto 48GB. These are very marketable features but still they play the silent game. And i feel the continued silence can only be to protect information on new tech being made public prematurely. And knowing Sony, waiting for the biggest marketing opportunity.

[The Chocobo Kid]

I think the rsx is going to have something great. don't know what that is yet. sure sony have something new to show us but I don't think it will be alot on the RSX.

[archy141]

Your opinion obviously does stand as there is no conclusive proof either way. But dont you find it strange that the component that generates what most early adopters love the most (graphics) has been under such heavy silence.

As i've tried to say ealier if it is an unmodified 7800/7900 to fit with cell i'm sure such information could have been revealed many many months ago. Sony would have countered the fact thats its outdated pc tech by hyping the close relationship it has with Cell offering extra performance from SPUs and the extra bandwidth from the link to XDR offering upto 48GB. These are very marketable features but still they play the silent game. And i feel the continued silence can only be to protect information on new tech being made public prematurely. And knowing Sony, waiting for the biggest marketing opportunity.

Absolutely in agreement with you. I'm also little disappointed at how tight lipped NVIDIA CEO was. He didn't blow any hot air about the RSX. In fact he seemed to make an effort to steer away from talking about the RSX & instead spoke of PS3's other features. But than NVIDIA have been in the secret keeping business for a long while.



Archy

[xen]

Do you mean during E3 2005? I agree his RSX speech during Sony's presentation was too generic and vague to take much from. It seemed more of a presentation for the 7 series gpu which they announced a few days later.

I can understand people going here we go again, someone else expecting something special from RSX why cant you just be happy with a 7800GTX. I think my main reason for expecting more is a certain Ken Kuturagi loves his tech to much.

Having envisioned the idea of Cell and approached both IBM/Toshiba to help make it a reality he was the one insisting they include 8 spus and not 6 which the engineers originally intended. He made them add more because thats his mentality

He's also adament on next gen components in every area of playstation3 much of which will only come to market on PS3 release (Cell, XDR, FlexIO). Obviously much effort has gone into the overall design of the console, and i just cant see sony not pushing for next gen graphics tech to compliment (and i'm sure the threat from microsoft and its nvidia powered xbox gave sony much concern too)

It almost seems to go against the entire rational behind PS3 to promote the machines graphic abilities on year old to market pc graphics card tech. It kinda goes against every other component in PS3 infact.

[NOVAA]

Another consideration for the RSX is that maybe it is based more on the 7950 than the 7800. You see, this is another idea we have explored. Maybe Sony was really planning on a spring release, but when they realised that it could never happen, decided to upgrade. They want up to the date technology, so maybe they went to Nvidia and said, the G70 was top of the line earlier this year, now it isn't, we want up to the date tech for fall.

[archy141]

NOVAA - welcome to forums.

check your PM


Another consideration for the RSX is that maybe it is based more on the 7950 than the 7800. You see, this is another idea we have explored. Maybe Sony was really planning on a spring release, but when they realised that it could never happen, decided to upgrade. They want up to the date technology, so maybe they went to Nvidia and said, the G70 was top of the line earlier this year, now it isn't, we want up to the date tech for fall.

I think that would have been a little late for change. Too much to do in short time.

More likely they were on track to make a GPU that is G80 like in features & the PS3 was always set for release at Fall 06

OR possibly

After E3 2005 having seen XBOX360 spec's, it got Nvidia to beef up there GPU to some kind of G70 custom variation.


Archy

[WelshBluebird]

Or prehaps sony never intended for a spring 2006 launch (despite what they said) and so could plan for using a 7900gx2 / 7950gx2 or g80 based RSX.

[Aleman]

Wasn't there a slide at E3 2005 that said it was "G70x" based?

[wotter]

Of course, RSX is NV47 based. Sry, but I just don't believe that Sony will put a G80-card in the PS3. Perhaps they upped the clockspeeds a bit, but a whole new card?

[KuroMaruku]

Like I siad we shall never know about it becuase it's not what most expect it to be.

[archy141]

Of course, RSX is NV47 based. Sry, but I just don't believe that Sony will put a G80-card in the PS3. Perhaps they upped the clockspeeds a bit, but a whole new card?

It wouldn't be a whole new card -just a different GPU chip specifically tailored to PS3's FLEXIO bus.

Anyhow as i have said good few times earlier:


Another possible way to look at the G80 is that it is the end product of NVIDIA's customisation that went into a G70 core to make the RSX. G80 is the RSX + more for the PC market & RSX is the custom G80 for the PS3



Most likely we will NOT end up with the G80 but instead some kind of custom derivative that shares its feature set & integrates well into the PS3.


Sony could put all of my logic & reasoning down the pan & the RSX turn out to be nothing LIKE the G80 but I’m 100% convinced at worst case scenario it will not have the E305 spec’s. It will most definitely be more than we were told.

It may well be a highly modified NV47 core i.e G70 with qualities that are very similar to G80's. I believe G80 is a window into the technologies the RSX will have. It most likely came about through the joint work by NVIDIA & Sony to produce the RSX e.g inclusion of built in HDCP.




Maybe i should update my post on first page with latest write ups ?




Archy

[NOVAA]

And I really can tell you this much. I cannot indulge any more information than this. After speaking with a few disclosed contacts who are certainly in the know, I have promised that I won't say anything. I'll leave you with this, the RSX is a very, very powerful chip, and games will get much better, even from their E3-06 form. I doubt most of you will believe me, but I'll just leave that for thought.

Sony knows what there doing...

[The_One]

Ugh, did you not read what both myself AND Ebony have wrote? Shader Models are arbitrary FEATURE-SETS. Why do you think current gen graphics cards (and older ones, too) can support "DX10" by just updating the drivers?

Sorry i'm a little lost on this one.. i can't seem to find your or EbonyS's point of view on this. Can you please point me to it.

Isn't just upgrading drivers of an older DX9 card to make it support DX10 far inferior than a having a true hardware DX10 card ?
Or are you saying that the new feature set of DX10 over DX9 is pretty much zero ? No worthy new effects etc ? Okay, let me give you an example, it's like this:
Back in the days, GPU's supported up to 1:6 lossless compression, nowadays, they can compress on-the-fly 1:15 ratio lossless texture compressions. Does that mean the old GPU's can't decompress 1:15 ratio compressions? No, it'll simply do it at a slower speed.

This is the exact same deal, the newer hardware will improve on the older hardware, while the older hardware will still support the feature-sets, simply at a slower speed. Would it be a lot slower to emulate DX10 on a DX9 compliant hardware? I wouldn't know, since no DX10 compliant GPU is out at the moment to make a comparison with!

[jlippone]

There are things fully SM4 GPUs can do that current GPUs cannot.
In example creating and destroying vertexes.
Of course you can do these things with CPU and transfer the data trough PCI-E to GPU, but then we really aren't discussing about GPU features.

Whats the talk about GPUs and lossless compression?
Currently there is no 1:6 lossless compression for textures, even with CPUs.

[NOVAA]

If you read the thread about 100GB blu-ray disks, they are talking about the possibility of a game theoretically having all of its textures un-compressed to start with. BR disks could peak at 200GB, according to Sony, thats more enough for an Oblivion sized game featuring extremely high res CGI quality textures. Now if the console has enough muscle to push all those textures, thats one thing, but it theoretically could.

[Aleman]

If you read the thread about 100GB blu-ray disks, they are talking about the possibility of a game theoretically having all of its textures un-compressed to start with. BR disks could peak at 200GB, according to Sony, thats more enough for an Oblivion sized game featuring extremely high res CGI quality textures. Now if the console has enough muscle to push all those textures, thats one thing, but it theoretically could.

The problem with that is that the transfer speed from the disc is the bottleneck. I'm guessing it's faster to transfer compressed textures and then decompress them than to transfer uncompressed textures, especially with a CPU like the Cell.

[Hexadecimal]

If you read the thread about 100GB blu-ray disks, they are talking about the possibility of a game theoretically having all of its textures un-compressed to start with. BR disks could peak at 200GB, according to Sony, thats more enough for an Oblivion sized game featuring extremely high res CGI quality textures. Now if the console has enough muscle to push all those textures, thats one thing, but it theoretically could.

The point of texture compression is to fit more textures inside the video memory.

[RAYSTORM]

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9446/graphicsyh5.jpg

Taken from the game developers conference..

[Smily0012]

I strongly think that the RSX is completely of the NV47, but the reason they haven't disclosed any information yet is cause they were working on the bugs. I mean they are probably experimenting the RSX strengths and helping developers.

[Guilty Bystander]

Silly silly silly kids!
Ati have stated in terms of RAW power the Xenos is in between the X1800XT and the X1900XTX.
In terms of featureset and shader power (executions and instructions not Shader ops) the Xenos is better than the X1900XTX and worse than the R600.

Judging Xbox 360 by Prey a game ported within 3-4 months is about the silliest thing anyone can possibly use as an argument.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9446/graphicsyh5.jpg

We have seen this image a number of times on these forums and I take it with a grain of salt.
Just thinking this sheet is true the Xenos will have more RAW power than the RSX.
Xenos can 480Flops (48 ALU's x 10 instructions) per clock running 500MHz Core is more than 384Flops per clock running 550MHz.



Coming back to the beginning of this post.
IMO people who don't have a clue about hardware and are just talking bs SHOULD from now on keep quiet on these kind of thread as it's so ackward reading there idiotic replies.
This would be good as people that do know what they're talking about can keep the discussion running instead multiple useless posts ruining that discussion by making those people debate eachother with a large number of posts apart.

But hey that's IMO ofcourse!

[archy141]

Silly silly silly kids!
Ati have stated in terms of RAW power the Xenos is in between the X1800XT and the X1900XTX.
In terms of featureset and shader power (executions and instructions not Shader ops) the Xenos is better than the X1900XTX and worse than the R600.
Judging Xbox 360 by Prey a game ported within 3-4 months is about the silliest thing anyone can possibly use as an argument.
We have seen this image a number of times on these forums and I take it with a grain of salt.
Just thinking this sheet is true the Xenos will have more RAW power than the RSX.
Xenos can 480Flops (48 ALU's x 10 instructions) per clock running 500MHz Core is more than 384Flops per clock running 550MHz.



Coming back to the beginning of this post.
IMO people who don't have a clue about hardware and are just talking bs SHOULD from now on keep quiet on these kind of thread as it's so ackward reading there idiotic replies.
This would be good as people that do know what they're talking about can keep the discussion running instead multiple useless posts ruining that discussion by making those people debate eachother with a large number of posts apart.

But hey that's IMO ofcourse!



Listen up, there is no need for that kind of tone. Everyone should be allowed to air there opinion & ask questions openly here - even curious newbies without fear. Fortunately not all are articulate as you.



Sony PlayStation 3 Hardware May Not Be Finalized – Sources.
Developers Use Personal Computers to Show PS3 Advantages
[ 06/06/2006 | 09:49 AM ]

..The game developers who did not run their demos on the pre-release Sony PlayStation 3 hardware, used high-performance personal computers, such as those featuring high-speed Nvidia GeForce 7900 graphics cards in SLI mode or even ATI’s Radeon X1900 in CrossFire mode...

Maybe we should also take what ATI says about its Xenos with a grain of salt. No one could be more biased than them about Xenos. They also have a reputation of fudging figures for there cards.


Taken from the game developers conference..

I think that was back around March time close to when PS3 should have supposedly launched ?

Well since than all those figures have mysteriously disappeared & that is just one of the reasons this thread exists.


Archy

Do NOT double post! - The_One

[Lefein]

I'm going to drop a nice little hint. Take a look at the 6150 if you want to see how mature NVidias HD support has become as well as its North Bridge and South Bridge designs.. The H.264 support aint so bad, either :)

What I'm getting at here is that a "dinky" on-board graphics chip with some advanced features running at a pedestrian 475MHz can run Battlefield2... Now, throw in HDR support, a 550Mhz core, and a Flex I/O bus that PC gamers could only begin to dream of.. Oh, and don't forget dedicated developer support from ace teams like Naughty Dog, Square Enix, Factor 5, Santa Monica, Team Ico, Zipper, Epic, FoxHound Studios, Ubisoft, and on and on and on and on..

This generation is going to be a big one for Sony in a big way. And with the extra development time put on RSX I can't begin to imagine what kind of other features are being thrown in.. All I know is that NVidia makes beautiful stuff. G80 or not, the RSX would be a barn stormer if it was just 7800 based.

[archy141]

This generation is going to be a big one for Sony in a big way. And with the extra development time put on RSX I can't begin to imagine what kind of other features are being thrown in.. All I know is that NVidia makes beautiful stuff. G80 or not, the RSX would be a barn stormer if it was just 7800 based.

Lefein, after having read some of the ideas & arguments, what do you think about the likelyhood of RSX spec's being changed since E3 2005 ?


Archy

[The_One]

There are things fully SM4 GPUs can do that current GPUs cannot.
In example creating and destroying vertexes.
Of course you can do these things with CPU and transfer the data trough PCI-E to GPU, but then we really aren't discussing about GPU features.

Whats the talk about GPUs and lossless compression?
Currently there is no 1:6 lossless compression for textures, even with CPUs. Sorry, my bad. I used the wrong choice of words. I meant 1:6 ratio relatively lossless compression.

[DarkChild]

here's a little something to add fuel to the fire.

this is an old news report about Nvidia and sony
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/02/17/nvidia-drops-clues-on-ps3-launch-date-not-spring/


Nvidia drops clues on PS3 launch date: not spring
Posted Feb 17th 2006 5:30PM by Christopher Grant
Filed under: Sony PlayStation 3

Dean Takahashi connects the dots between a statement made during Nvidia's conference call yesterday and the elusive release date of the PS3. Takahashi writes, "Graphics chip maker Nvidia reported today that it doesn't anticipate any royalties from Sony during the current fiscal quarter which closes at the end of April," then deduces, "since Nvidia won't be collecting royalties on the chip this quarter, that suggests that Sony isn't going to be producing machines during the months that close at the end of April, 2006."

If systems aren't being built by the end of April, it's pretty hard to imagine the PS3 being released this spring.


apparently they knew that the system would not release in the spring so, should their statement about the RSX being the most powerful card when released still hold true?

[NOVAA]

We think that maybe the statement was true, but will still hold true today because the RSX is potentially based off either a state of the art PC card, or a core that isn't even released yet.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I have reliable sources when I say this, the final RSX is an extremely powerful chip.

[Lefein]

This generation is going to be a big one for Sony in a big way. And with the extra development time put on RSX I can't begin to imagine what kind of other features are being thrown in.. All I know is that NVidia makes beautiful stuff. G80 or not, the RSX would be a barn stormer if it was just 7800 based.

Lefein, after having read some of the ideas & arguments, what do you think about the likelyhood of RSX spec's being changed since E3 2005 ?


Archy

My opinion is that it is irrelevant. Even a G70 based RSX would be pretty mind blowing with a wide enough bus to sit on. The fact that Sony tossed money at NVidia to redesign the final RSX after last year's TGS tells me that Sony wants to bring a cruise missile to a gunfight.

[Shred0r]

Found a nice thread titled "The RSX's power and the NVIDIA 7950"...
OK, it's mostly speculative stuff but still a nice read...

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250

Some outtakes:


An individual on the Metal Gear Solid Forums stated that a friend of his who was a newspaper reporter who attended E3 discovered some of the PS3 developers were utilizing two7950 cards in SLI and one gigabyte of total RAM. To me if this is confirmed then we have another clue that the final RSX was to be something much more than an ordinary slightly modified SINGULAR 7800/7900.
-
Basically, the sources I have and information I have found make me believe the RSX will either have multiple cores and be similiar to the 7950 (in addition to the differences in each single RSX core from an ordinary 7900) or will utilize extra sub-processors.
-
Another GREAT feature of utilizing a multicore design is that if anything like the 7950 was used then we can almost count on at least another 256MB of VRAM. This could really make a big difference when it comes to PS3 games utilizing the highest quality textures and not falling behind to PC's at least immediately after it's launch.
-
And the speculation goes on... :)


I find this one nice:


Dude, our oppinion here is that basicly, the E3-2K5 RSX they showed was well... fake. We think that it was all a hoax, just to give the press something to chew on. We think that the real RSX has been the G80 core since the beggining. If you would view a few of the threads and videos at the first page, you can clearly tell that something is up.

Nvidia's VP said that a quad-sli computer will be very similar to the PS3 expirience, which is a VERY uneducated and stupid thing to say unless the RSX isn't the same RSX. Then when he was asked if the PS3 would have "four cards" in it, he laughed nervously, backtracked, abd made some more uneducated and stupid comments, obviously trying to hide something.

The games at E3 were not running on PS3 hardware, rather anything from Crossfire X1900XTX's to Quad-Sli 7950 GX2's. The rumor is that the developers were informed that the RSX will be significantly more powerful than the 7800GTX it was supposed to be based on. Fishy huh?

Also, in the final dev kits for developers, it was reported that certain "components" would not be taken advantage of at launch. Notice components, not speed is mentioned.

Obviously, as they removed the RSX and Cell specs, there is something up. Either they are fixing the RSX, or more likely going to release new specs.


According to some rumors, though mostly word of mouth, nVidia's newer line of GPUs in the G80 series are set to be around this April. These ones are particularly awesome because they will be the first true dual-core GPUs, as opposed to multiple cores per PCB and SLI. These new beasts also carry DirectX10 support, Shader Model 4.0, core speeds 800MHz with room for growth and be based on the newer “half-node” 80nm process, resulting in a much appreciated heat reduction. These might also be the first cards on the market to utilize GDDR4. If any of this pans out, the start of 2Q 2006 will look very good for the video card market. Read more details here.

http://www.techspot.com/news/20331-details-on-nvidia-g80-gpu.html

When did the developes say they have received final PS3 SDKs ???
Yep, sometime after E³ 2006. These days we learned that there have been shiped approximately 10,000 final SGKs to dev studios all around the world. And if we believe the rumur that NVIDIA made the G80 line ready for production in April then there are good chances that the final SDKs do really include a G80 based GPU...
In this case this would really fit into the philosophy of the PS3 with its sophisticated cutting edge hardware:

- revolutionary CPU (Cell)
- next-gen optical drive (BlueRay)
- next-gen high-performance FlexIO processor bus (7x faster compared to PCI Express interface if i got it right)
- next-gen RAM (XDR)
- next-gen AV-output (HDMI 1.3 with 48bit support etc.)

more interesting stuff:


Summary / Partial Transcript Of The Following Webcast:
NVIDIA Corporation at Morgan Stanley Semiconductor & Systems Conference (Replay)
03/07/06 at 8:45 a.m. PT

outtake:

- NV50-related...

- "Increasing flexibility of the programmability, enabling the artists to express themselves in a free way."
- "Our next generation product will just take [effects] to a brand new level"
- "Our next generation product is the combination of 3 years of heavy-duty work. We started architecting it about 4 years ago, and, you know, my best calculations have this investing $250M into it already, and by the time it launches as well as the entire product family, we will have invested about $500M in R&D."
- "It is a spectacular computing machine and, uhm, we can't wait to show it to you later this year".
- "And this year, along with Vista, is going to introduce a very important new API, it's called DX10"
- "And DX10 is just a giant leap forward in unifying the way people program graphics. Instead of, you know,"
"vertices, and shaders and textures, it's unified in a very elegant way. And it's unified in a way that
"makes it possible for us to abstract [GPU] programming to the next level."
- "Our DX10 [part] is nearly finished now, and uhm, it'll be rolled out this year sometime."
- "And, uhm, if I have my way, our next generation GPU will be the first DX10 GPU in the world."

source (http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:8pyMTz-rJVEJ:www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D28999+rsx+g80&hl=de&gl=de&ct=clnk&cd=16&client=firefox-a)

Hmm, keeping in mind that console developers begin to work on their next console shortly after the release of their current one this really fits into the development cycle of the PS3...
And having said that the "DX10 part (i guess the whole card is meant) is nearly finished now" by the time of March this could mean that NVIDIA's G80 based cards (or call it NV50 cards, whatever) could have been in production for some sereral month alteady...

April: G80 cards finished, ready for production
May (after E³ '06): dev studios receiving first final PS3 SDKs

My personal closing words: HOPE IS THE LAST TO DIE ^^

[Lefein]

Oh, new vocabulary term...

"Synergistic Media Element"

;)

[Roco]

wow what that guy wrote is pretty interesting!!i really hope sony does drop a bomb at TGS.didnt ken kutaragi state he was giving a speech at TGS?like i wonder if it has to do with the RSX!!im pretty excited now,cant wait til ps3 comes out.

[mrboo]

This is getting out of hand now..

but :cry: but :cry: teh multi-core RSX, ALL GPU's are multicore you idiots.

[Jugix]

Is ALU or pipeline a full blown core?

[archy141]

KRAZY Ken - " The next generation doesn't start until we say it's time ! "

He truly meant it ! You have to be blind not to see how serious Sony are about this statement. It's definitely no marketing waffle or hype as has been the case by so many others before. This guy is Nuts & Hellbent to make NextGen happen with PS3.

As i have been saying, step back & look at the whole picture since E3 2005 to date. You will see the signs for yourself. And just take a look at this list. Is it just not truly NextGen ?







1. - NextGen Revolutionary CPU (Cell)


2. - [------------ GPU -------------]


3. - NextGen Processor Bus (FlexIO )


4. - NextGen RAM (XDR)


5. - NextGen Media (BluRay)


6. - NextGen AV output (HDMI 1.3)





All that is missing from the picture is RSX. Those of you with basic ability to apply logic & reasoning should be able to instantly rationalize it will take some SPECIAL kind of GPU to fill that blank space. We are talking about the 2nd most important component in a Gaming Console. If they can be so fussy about something small & relatively insigificant as an AV output port than by the same reasoning they will pay very special attention to the GPU.

You can drop the excuse it is a NV47 core as spec'd at E3 2005 & if the PS3 had been released spring 06 it would have qualified as NextGen.

1. There never was anything NextGen in those spec's. Certainly not NextGen in the same way Sony was compiling rest of the PS3 components.
I believe those were just arbitrary spec's to sell the media & its competitors.

2.The PS3 was never meant to come out in spring 06 - see my updated reasoning on first page of thread:

3. And even if you still want to believe it was - take a look at that above component list again. Do you see anything on it that is NOT NextGen for Fall 06 release ? In fact there are things on that list that did not even exist back in spring 06 ! Sony was involved in creating all these things & they new all along when they would be completed & ready to assemble the console. This should make more sense & not sound so arrogant now:

" The next generation doesn't start until we say it's time ! "

In other words Sony will deliver a Truly NextGen Console when they are good & ready. They will dictate the time i.e they know exactly when that time will be.

I have been around since the days of Spectrum & Vic20. In all that time i have seen many hypes for computers & consoles come & go that were promised to be but never delivered. None has ever come anywhere close as the PS3 to delivering what they said they would. It is truly unbelievable that they can make this happen. They will have both the best ever console & launch games to date. We as fans & gamers can only be winners out of this for the first time ever.

Whatever form the RSX takes -whether it is a modified NV47 core or NV50 (G80) it will be something very special & worthy being called NextGen on its launch date.

This is GUARANTEED if you apply all of the logic & reasoning in the world this is the obvious outcome.

I'm sure i have lots of people warming up to this idea but are just too scared to admit it to themselves as it seems too good to be happening.

Whats really funny is the Xbox fanboys trembling in here when they also see the possibility.. kheee khe..


Archy.

[Nstriker20]

I was looking at the EVGA GeForce 7950 GX2 Dual GPU and the core clock speed is 500MHz, which is 50MHz less than the RSX core clock speed. I am starting to think that the RSX is going to have some characteristics of the GeForce 7950.

[EbonySeraphim]

Just to get some people back down to earth -

Even though some developers may have been using dual SLI 7900GTXs or X1900X-whatevers to run their games at E3, this was more likely a measure taken to make sure games were playable at decent frame rates during the convention. More than likely, in the development house, the kits they have run their game at low frame rates that are unacceptable to gamers but are perfectly acceptable for pure debug and test purposes. It doesn't point to the RSX being equivalently powerful, but should indicate their target performance one they have put in more optimizations.

[NOVAA]

I was looking at the EVGA GeForce 7950 GX2 Dual GPU and the core clock speed is 500MHz, which is 50MHz less than the RSX core clock speed. I am starting to think that the RSX is going to have some characteristics of the GeForce 7950.

Thats another possibility we have discussed, as the 7950 can be ICT compliant also if developers want it to be.

[mrgtir]

Oh, new vocabulary term...

"Synergistic Media Element"

;)

Do you know something which we do not?, come on, just a small hint.

[shadow26]

sorry, i havent been keeping up on this thread, but lefein said
"Sony tossed money at NVidia to redesign the final RSX after last year's TGS"
are you saying that, that large amount of money- (that we speculated went towards the psp2, etc, and was more than they gave them for the original RSX) was confirmed to go towards a redesign of the RSX?
or are you talking about another sum of money

[The_One]

sorry, i havent been keeping up on this thread, but lefein said
"Sony tossed money at NVidia to redesign the final RSX after last year's TGS"
are you saying that, that large amount of money- (that we speculated went towards the psp2, etc, and was more than they gave them for the original RSX) was confirmed to go towards a redesign of the RSX?
or are you talking about another sum of money He won't tell you (or anyone for that matter), so don't bother asking :lol:.

[shadow26]

you mean other people have asked him, but he doesnt WANT to reply, to just keep us guessing and thinking he has more knowledge than us, or he CAN'T say because of some reason

[The_One]

you mean other people have asked him, but he doesnt WANT to reply, to just keep us guessing and thinking he has more knowledge than us, or he CAN'T say because of some reason I don't know, really. However, if I had to guess, I think it might be the latter (I said it "might", so no definites).

[Lefein]

Sony happens to be a client of my company and I am subject to an NDA.

[Lp Chris XII]

Sony happens to be a client of my company and I am subject to an NDA.

That, and he enjoys messing with our minds :lol: .

[janenba352]

The fact that Sony tossed money at NVidia to redesign the final RSX after last year's TGS tells me that Sony wants to bring a cruise missile to a gunfight.

lol that was pretty well thought out. I knew the saying briing knife to a gun fight but damn cruise missile? wouldnt it if its close range combat kill Sony too?

[Lefein]

The fact that Sony tossed money at NVidia to redesign the final RSX after last year's TGS tells me that Sony wants to bring a cruise missile to a gunfight.

lol that was pretty well thought out. I knew the saying briing knife to a gun fight but damn cruise missile? wouldnt it if its close range combat kill Sony too?

I get the feeling that the giant crab will protect them.

[Supaman²²³]

The fact that Sony tossed money at NVidia to redesign the final RSX after last year's TGS tells me that Sony wants to bring a cruise missile to a gunfight.

lol that was pretty well thought out. I knew the saying briing knife to a gun fight but damn cruise missile? wouldnt it if its close range combat kill Sony too?

I get the feeling that the giant crab will protect them.From Criticle damage eh? lol

[HiX]

Oh well, Lefein knows somethin good that we dont so yeah, as long as it is good news, I'm happy for the Sony camp.

[archy141]

GOOD Morning to all !


And what a day it is.. I have some really BIG news so please prepare yourselves..








Last night i came across a HUGE clue that I believe connects
E3 2005 -- G80 -- RSX !








For me the Jigsaw feels more complete than ever !


Embrace yourselves for a post that will follow later ..

[archy141]

Yes ! ! ! !



The vote has swung 41 % MAJORITY in favour - RSX different Spec altogther - G80 !



This is good - people are seeing the logic of my arguments !

Woot !

[archy141]

BTW this HUGE clue I mentioned - involves something solid as a PATENT.

I'm hoping to hear back from a developer soon to verify something before i put my neck on the line. Although i'm personally convinced - I want to be properly armed to deal with non believers.


Archy

[PS3 rocks]

get the feeling that the giant crab will protect them.

Can someone explain that crab joke i've seen it a few times but i don't get it. If Sony's RSX is the G80 can you imagine the bomb shell that would be? There goes the game will look the same. Can someone post the specs of all these, it would help a lot.

[Legend Killer]

Archy141 just used the edit button there is no need for triple posting and I can't wait to see what you found.

[wotter]

get the feeling that the giant crab will protect them.

Can someone explain that crab joke i've seen it a few times but i don't get it.

Watch the Sony E3 '06 conference and look for the game Genji 2, you'll soon understand :wink: .

[mynd]

I'm going to quote myself from another thread, seing as G80 conspiracy seems to be gethering momentum...

"Oh dear. Oh dear.

Okay lets work through this logically people.

Sony go and see Nvidia and ask for a chip for the PS3.

Now one of 2 options is going to occur here.

1) Sony let Nvidia design the chip keep the fab and design rights and pay a royalty out on every chip used.

2) Sony pay Nvidia a swag of money 2 years ago to produce "cutting edge" technology for there PS3. Sony also purchases the design and production rights for the chip and say to Nvidia, thank you very much.

Now option 1 is what Microsoft did with the xbox. It's cheaper short term but long term it hurts you cause you have a fixed cost that Nvidia have set, Microsoft had to sue Nvidia to get them to move and inch on the price of the Nvidia chips for the original xbox.

Option 2 costs you lots of money up front but once you've done it, all the design and fab rights are yours. MS was smart this time around and this is what they did. The CPU's in the xbox360, while created by IBM are owned lock stock and barrallel by MS. They never have to even talk to IBM again. Same applies with the custom ATI chip.
I'd be very surprissed if these are even fabbed by ATI.

Now given SONY wants to sell millions of these things, AND keep control of the costs, which one do you think they opted for, especially given the problems MS had with Nvidia?

Sony payed Nvidia a swag of money, any changes to these design of the RSX probably were minor tweaks and happened over a year ago just after or around E3 2005.

Nvidia are not a charity, Sony entered into a contract, paid up front and got what they wanted.

Even if Sony went back to Nvidia cap in hand and pleaded for an upgrade Nvidia would simply say, new contract and same amount of money again please.

People who use the "but sony paid a crap load of money for old technology" speak are just not thinking straight, of course they did, it's called a contract people get over it.

No way a Nvidia even going to divulge the G80 archetecture with Sony, not unless sony completly renegotiate the contract, and last I heard they did signa new one, but that was like 3 months ago. A possibilty yes, likely? No. But if it is SONY just upped the price of the PS3 by at least another $50.


People I know it's a dream and you all like to think it is simply going to happen , but it's about as likely as the Cell being upgraded to 10 spu's a year ago and Sony hasn't told anyone."

[mrboo]

Im going to laugh so hard at you guys when it turns out to be a modd'd 7900 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[archy141]

No way a Nvidia even going to divulge the G80 archetecture with Sony, not unless sony completly renegotiate the contract, and last I heard they did signa new one, but that was like 3 months ago. A possibilty yes, likely? No. But if it is SONY just upped the price of the PS3 by at least another $50.


People I know it's a dream and you all like to think it is simply going to happen , but it's about as likely as the Cell being upgraded to 10 spu's a year ago and Sony hasn't told anyone."


Your argument assumes everyone is implying that Sony went back to Nvidia recently to request an upgrade of the original E3 2005 Spec'd RSX.

What if Sony & Nvidia were always working together towards a G80 like RSX ?

Nvidia have confirmed they have worked on the G80 for three years. When Sony went to Nvidia with a load of cash 2-3 years back to ask for the best they could offer for there Nextgen technology, do you really think they were not able to buy or be sold the G80 technology as part of the RSX solution ?

The G80 technology was with Nvidia before Sony approached them- PATENTS prove this. Im sure Nvidia would have been quite happy to offset there R&D costs by working with Sony to give them RSX & at the same time themselves the G80. Also i can confirm that the Nvidia & Sony RSX relationship is built on royalties.

As i showed already, Sony have stuck to there words to date & every component we know of in the PS3 is NEXTGEN

Question that people should be asking is -

Would Sony compromise on just the RSX considering the Truly NextGen nature of all other components ?

[archy141]

Im going to laugh so hard at you guys when it turns out to be a modd'd 7900 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Whats there to laugh about that ?

Its's not like its a unique prediction put forward by yourself.

For instance Ageia already described the GPU as 7900+
Developers have guessed & said it to be more like a 7800/7900 than the E3 2005 spec.

People shouldn't be discouraged from being open minded & applying reasoning to valid arguments.

Also as you can see plenty of people have voted that it is potentially a 7800/7900 & I also put it down as an option because i also believe that it is a possibility.


Archy

[PS3 rocks]

Although i'm still sceptical, Archy141 is definitely onto something. Lets just think for a minute about would would happen if the RSX is a G80 architecture, thats the question what would happen? do you think MS would come up with some excuse and find some way to try and make their GPU sound just as good, or do you think lots of E3 would be reversed? How much better graphics can we expect anyway?

I said it before archy141 you're onto something weather or not it's true, only time will tell, but you have some very strong points to support you.

[mrboo]

Im going to laugh so hard at you guys when it turns out to be a modd'd 7900 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Whats there to laugh about that ?

Its's not like its a unique prediction put forward by yourself.

For instance Ageia already described the GPU as 7900+
Developers have guessed & said it to be more like a 7800/7900 than the E3 2005 spec.

People shouldn't be discouraged from being open minded & applying reasoning to valid arguments.

Also as you can see plenty of people have voted that it is potentially a 7800/7900 & I also put it down as an option because i also believe that it is a possibility.


Archy

Yea a modd'd 7900 like i originally said :lol:

[Lefein]

I'm with MrBoo on this one. Unless Sony makes an announcement that they are using GDDR4, don't expect a G80 based RSX.

[archy141]

Although i'm still sceptical, Archy141 is definitely onto something. Lets just think for a minute about would would happen if the RSX is a G80 architecture, thats the question what would happen? do you think MS would come up with some half *expletive deleted* excuse and find some way to try and make their GPU sound just as good, or do you think lots of E3 would be reversed? How much better graphics can we expect anyway?

I said it before archy141 you're onto something weather or not it's true, only time will tell, but you have some very strong points to support you.

I think i can take a good guess at what MS would do.

Shut there gobs & drop the XBOX360 price.

There will be no other way to compete as the PS3 will surely make a mockery of the xbox360 being nextgen console. They will have to resort to fighting it out with the Wii & bigging up Live..

I have nothing against XBOX360 owners or fans - But i really BLOODY hate MS & the way the work. They should have kept there fingers out of this pie all along.

If RSX is like the G80 in features - than i think KillZone will be comming out of the trenches to steal the show against the likes of Halo.

Ever wonder why that disappeared along with the RSX spec's ?

Two extreme possibilities come to mind immediately:

1. It set the precedence so high after the original demo, the progress to date with it was soo bad they had to bury it out of existence. It was like the HALO flagship game for the PS3 - The Halo Killer termed by some.
Not a single screenshot or piece of whisper about it since e3 2005 ?? WTF ?!

2. It is actually being developed on a different Dev Kit - one with a different GPU. The results of which they don't want to show yet as it would give hints at the GPU. Its going to be at TGS or never for KillZone.



Thanks for the support PS3 rocks




Archy

[mrboo]

I'm with MrBoo on this one. Unless Sony makes an announcement that they are using GDDR4, don't expect a G80 based RSX.

Come on mate, you are just being neutral as always.. Covering both sides of the fence. RSX doe not necessarily have to have everything same as G80 such as memory. The RSX & G80 would be built for two different machines - one with a completely handicapped graphics architecture.

I really think people are just being a little scared to say what they really feel because of fear that they might get laughed at.



Archy

Dude get over it, its not going to happen. G80 is fully DX10 compliant and nAo on the ninjathoery forums has already said that if you want to do DX10 stuff on PS3 it has to be done on Cell. Now IF and only IF RSX was G80 based then RSX would have Hardware support for the DX10 feature's so there would be no need to do them on Cell. Indicating that RSX has NOTHING to do with G80 or DX10.

There was reports that Audio will be handled on RSX, don't you think thats were the upgrade happened? couldn't they of upgraded RSX for audio? What about upgrading RSX for Backwards compatability?

Your talking about Sony annoucning that RSX was G70 based and now its G80 based, do you have any idea how silly that is?

RSX is nothing more then a 7900 with slight optimizations to the pipelines and maybe some specific cache increasements.

Im not being narrow minded im just being REALISTIC

You guys are just in for a world of disappointment, and ALOT of embarrassment.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/8181/iwanttobelievehr7.jpg

[Solaris]

Dude get over it, its not going to happen. G80 is fully DX10 compliant and nAo on the ninjathoery forums has already said that if you want to do DX10 stuff on PS3 it has to be done on Cell.

Actually to be FULLY DX10 compliant doesn't the GPU need to have a unified shader architecture? From what we've been hearing G80 looks like supporting DX10, in that it will have Smart Shader 4, geometry shaders, etc, but will be sticking with the dedicated pipeline architecture.

[mrboo]

Dude get over it, its not going to happen. G80 is fully DX10 compliant and nAo on the ninjathoery forums has already said that if you want to do DX10 stuff on PS3 it has to be done on Cell.

Actually to be FULLY DX10 compliant doesn't the GPU need to have a unified shader architecture? From what we've been hearing G80 looks like supporting DX10, in that it will have Smart Shader 4, geometry shaders, etc, but will be sticking with the dedicated pipeline architecture.

Nope it does'nt, the criteria was for a unified architecture but was later dropped.

[Nstriker20]

archy141 you need to stop double and triple posting. read the rules

[Solaris]

[If RSX is like the G80 in features - than i think KillZone will be comming out of the trenches to steal the show against the likes of Halo.

Ever wonder why that disappeared along with the RSX spec's ?

Two extreme possibilities come to mind immediately:

1. It set the precedence so high after the original demo, the progress to date with it was soo bad they had to bury it out of existence. It was like the HALO flagship game for the PS3 - The Halo Killer termed by some.
Not a single screenshot or piece of whisper about it since e3 2005 ?? WTF ?!

2. It is actually being developed on a different Dev Kit - one with a different GPU. The results of which they don't want to show yet as it would give hints at the GPU. Its going to be at TGS or never for KillZone.



Thanks for the support PS3 rocks




Archy

Sony actually commented on Killzones lack of appearance and said that right now they didn't want anything to take the focus away from Resistance fall of man, since that is a launch game and Killzone is quite a way off. Understandable.

[Reaktorleak89]

Realistically, I think Sony did ask for an RSX upgrade in March (which is why they paid an extra $30 million), but to fix problems/drawbacks with the architecture. By that time developers had already spent, what, 8-10 months with the architecture? There might've been some weaknesses compared with the GPU in the 360, and possibly some stuff with HTCP compliance/PS2 compatibility? 550 mhz isn't all that much when you think about it as well; it would make much more sense for the RSX to be clocked at the same rate as its ram, 700 Mhz, just as Cell is clocked at the same speed as its RAM.

I would love to see a HUGE upgrade for the PS3 architecture, but honestly I can't really see it happening. But Ken Kutaragi is pretty crazy, so anything's possible.

[archy141]

Sorry mrboo but it seems i let my passion on the subject get that better of me. Just idea of laughing at anyone because they think different bugs me a little.

Anyhow back to your reply.






Dude get over it, its not going to happen. G80 is fully DX10 compliant and nAo on the ninjathoery forums has already said that if you want to do DX10 stuff on PS3 it has to be done on Cell. Now IF and only IF RSX was G80 based then RSX would have Hardware support for the DX10 feature's so there would be no need to do them on Cell. Indicating that RSX has NOTHING to do with G80 or DX10.

"Now IF and only IF RSX was G80 based then RSX would have Hardware support for the DX10 feature's so there would be no need to do them on Cell. Indicating that RSX has NOTHING to do with G80 or DX10. "



I personally don't believe the developers have the final RSX hardware in there development kits. Way too risky for Sony to let it out.

Recently recall Kojima sounding little unsure about why Sony FORCING him to go 1080P on MGS4. Are they telling him it will be okay in the end for whatever reasons they know best ?

Also weren't we all expecting Heavenly Sword to be a launch title until Ninja Theory turned around & said its delayed because Sony said. Could this be to give them time to work on the real final hardware ?


here was reports that Audio will be handled on RSX, don't you think thats were the upgrade happened? couldn't they of upgraded RSX for audio? What about upgrading RSX for Backwards compatability?

I can't disclose my source yet as mentioned earlier I’m waiting on replies to clarify matters. But what you see below is what i believe to be from G80 related paperwork . I will say no more for now


A graphics system including a custom graphics and audio processor produces exciting 2D and 3D graphics and surround sound. The system includes a graphics and audio processor including a 3D graphics pipeline and an audio digital signal processor. Logical combination of N alpha compares can be used to provide a wide range of imaging effects including but not limited to cartoon outlining.


Your talking about Sony annoucning that RSX was G70 based and now its G80 based, do you have any idea how silly that is?
RSX is nothing more then a 7900 with slight optimizations to the pipelines and maybe some specific cache increasements.

Seem you don't really read my post or forget them very quick.

Earlier I wrote that the E3 2005 specs were most likely arbitrary.
I also said that the G80 may be the evolutionary resultant product that Sony & NVIDIA did on a N47 core (7800/7900). RSX tailored for PS3 needs & G80 for the crippled PC architecture.



*EDIT*

I would like to add


In facts it is highly unlikely that we will find a fully fledged G80 GPU in the PS3.

The RSX sharing the feature set of G80 for the PS3 & a fully blown G80 for the PC to suit its compensate its crippled architecture.
Archy

[mrboo]

"Taiwan's Asustek Computer to deliver PS3 consoles to Sony from this mth"

PS3 = In production

Which Means :

RSX = Finished

Cell = Finished

All Hardware = Finished



I personally don't believe the developers have the final RSX hardware in there development kits. Way too risky for Sony to let it out.


They would shout about it from hell and high water. " Everyone look at our new GPU its 3 times more power then 360's"

Sony would brag about it, no dout and rub Microsoft's face in it if they did upgrade it.


Recently recall Kojima sounding little unsure about why Sony FORCING him to go 1080P on MGS4

Because he know's :

1080p = Less detail and framerate then 720p, and 720p is what MGS4 was running in.


also weren't we all expecting Heavenly Sword to be a launch title

I dont think HS was ever confirmed as a launch title :?:


I can't disclose my source yet as mentioned earlier I’m waiting on replies to clarify matters

Im not asking you to disclose your source, what i ask is proof that you HAVE a source, any evidence? Chat logs? E-mails?


Seem you don't really read my post or forget them very quick.

Well funny things dont really stick in my head for very long.

[archy141]

"Taiwan's Asustek Computer to deliver PS3 consoles to Sony from this mth"

PS3 = In production

Which Means :

RSX = Finished

Cell = Finished

All Hardware = Finished



I personally don't believe the developers have the final RSX hardware in there development kits. Way too risky for Sony to let it out.


They would shout about it from hell and high water. " Everyone look at our new GPU its 3 times more power then 360's"

Sony would brag about it, no dout and rub Microsoft's face in it if they did upgrade it.


Recently recall Kojima sounding little unsure about why Sony FORCING him to go 1080P on MGS4

Because he know's :

1080p = Less detail and framerate then 720p, and 720p is what MGS4 was running in.


also weren't we all expecting Heavenly Sword to be a launch title

I dont think HS was ever confirmed as a launch title :?:


I can't disclose my source yet as mentioned earlier I’m waiting on replies to clarify matters

Im not asking you to disclose your source, what i ask is proof that you HAVE a source, any evidence? Chat logs? E-mails?


Seem you don't really read my post or forget them very quick.

Well funny things dont really stick in my head for very long.

It seems like you have started a crusade against all logoic & reasoning i offer so i will no longer entertain explaining myself to you as it will just bring the thread down.


Archy

[mrboo]

"Taiwan's Asustek Computer to deliver PS3 consoles to Sony from this mth"

PS3 = In production

Which Means :

RSX = Finished

Cell = Finished

All Hardware = Finished



I personally don't believe the developers have the final RSX hardware in there development kits. Way too risky for Sony to let it out.


They would shout about it from hell and high water. " Everyone look at our new GPU its 3 times more power then 360's"

Sony would brag about it, no dout and rub Microsoft's face in it if they did upgrade it.


Recently recall Kojima sounding little unsure about why Sony FORCING him to go 1080P on MGS4

Because he know's :

1080p = Less detail and framerate then 720p, and 720p is what MGS4 was running in.


also weren't we all expecting Heavenly Sword to be a launch title

I dont think HS was ever confirmed as a launch title :?:


I can't disclose my source yet as mentioned earlier I’m waiting on replies to clarify matters

Im not asking you to disclose your source, what i ask is proof that you HAVE a source, any evidence? Chat logs? E-mails?


Seem you don't really read my post or forget them very quick.

Well funny things dont really stick in my head for very long.

It seems like you have started a crusade against all logoic & reasoning i offer so i will no longer entertain explaining myself to you as it will just bring the thread down.


Archy

The thread was brought down at the start of page 2 by some idiots who have a wild imagination. And please were is the logic in this thread?

[SuperSJ-PS3]

The thread was brought down at the start of page 2 by some idiots who have a wild imagination. And please were is the logic in this thread?

This thread is not about fact to which you need to provide a proof to your theory/speculation. This thread is all about speculating and it's open to all whom ever have an opinion to add to this speculation. I think the author of this thread provide enough logic to back up his theory and should not be over look. You could disagreed with his theory, but you can not be bashing the theory/speculation or claiming it's pure stupid or foolish to think this way. You need to give an example of why are you disagreeding and not be calling the theory stupid or retarded in anyway. You too should also remember that you are also theorizing/speculating. The author of this thread never once claim that his theory was or is fact, he is simply implying that this is just a theory/speculation and everyone should be aware that this is not a fact claim.

[mrboo]

The thread was brought down at the start of page 2 by some idiots who have a wild imagination. And please were is the logic in this thread?

This thread is not about fact to which you need to provide a proof to your theory/speculation. This thread is all about speculating and it's open to all whom ever have an opinion to add to this speculation. I think the author of this thread provide enough logic to back up his theory and should not be over look. You could disagreed with his theory, but you can not be bashing the theory/speculation or claiming it's pure stupid or foolish to think this way. You need to give an example of why are you disagreeding and not be calling the theory stupid or re****ed in anyway. You too should also remember that you are also theorizing/speculating. The author of this thread never once claim that his theory was or is fact, he is simply implying that this is just a theory/speculation and everyone should be aware that this is not a fact claim.

:roll: ( i hate teh 5 word thing )

[archy141]

.. The author of this thread never once claim that his theory was or is fact, he is simply implying that this is just a theory/speculation and everyone should be aware that this is not a fact claim.

Thanks for your support.

I would just like to say 1 final thing to mrboo.


RSX 7800/7900 +More GDDR3/XDR Memory 24%
RSX different Spec altogther - G80 38%


Archy

[Mr.Smith]

The guy fails to figure in Sony using the Cell to do graphic processing also. Sony's thinking I'm sure is not to spend a huge amount on the GPU because the Cell can make up any diff. the 360 has. Why would Sony buy the best chip Nvidia has to offer which would surely bring the price even higher for PS3? I think the guy is wishfull thinking because he believes that Cell being powerfull would not make sence being paired with a weak GPU. This is all.

[Aleman]

The guy fails to figure in Sony using the Cell to do graphic processing also. Sony's thinking I'm sure is not to spend a huge amount on the GPU because the Cell can make up any diff. the 360 has. Why would Sony buy the best chip Nvidia has to offer which would surely bring the price even higher for PS3? I think the guy is wishfull thinking because he believes that Cell being powerfull would not make sence being paired with a weak GPU. This is all.

But then the Cell loses its advantage in other areas. If it's doing lots of graphics work, it will have less power available for physics, AI, etc.

[Crazy Phat]

The guy fails to figure in Sony using the Cell to do graphic processing also. Sony's thinking I'm sure is not to spend a huge amount on the GPU because the Cell can make up any diff. the 360 has. Why would Sony buy the best chip Nvidia has to offer which would surely bring the price even higher for PS3? I think the guy is wishfull thinking because he believes that Cell being powerfull would not make sence being paired with a weak GPU. This is all.

But then the Cell loses its advantage in other areas. If it's doing lots of graphics work, it will have less power available for physics, AI, etc.The Cell processor alreadt has 234 million transistors on it so that helps a little. :D

[The_One]

The guy fails to figure in Sony using the Cell to do graphic processing also. Sony's thinking I'm sure is not to spend a huge amount on the GPU because the Cell can make up any diff. the 360 has. Why would Sony buy the best chip Nvidia has to offer which would surely bring the price even higher for PS3? I think the guy is wishfull thinking because he believes that Cell being powerfull would not make sence being paired with a weak GPU. This is all.

But then the Cell loses its advantage in other areas. If it's doing lots of graphics work, it will have less power available for physics, AI, etc.The Cell processor alreadt has 234 million transistors on it so that helps a little. :D Transistor counts have nothing to do with performance. It's kind of like the Mhz fiasco where people originally thought Higher Mhz = Better, which of course, is completely incorrect.

As for the RSX being a modded 7900, I'd be even happier. I was originally shooting for a modded 7800, but hey, if it's a bit better, than more power to us ;).

[Mika Mo 25]

Haha, ya I remember back at the electronic showing at Las Vegas I think it was (forgot what it was I want to say it was abbreviated CES? or something like that), there was huge hype going around the forum and needless to say...it was a let down. But the Tokyo Game Show will have more in store for us because it is getting really close to the Playstation 3 launch, and plus the Tokyo Game Show is focused on gamming as the Las Vegas showing was not.

[Crazy Phat]

Also remember TGS is a public event so if they screw up, then.... :(

[archy141]

Remember this



KRAZY Ken - The next generation doesn't start until we say it's time !


Everyone thought he was MAD & arrogant. But i believe he said it's because he was completely confident in delivering what he said he would -Truly NextGen Console. I also believe this to be a sign that he new exactly when he was going to deliver it - Fall 06

And this one



" We’re looking at a life cycle of 10 years with the PlayStation 3"
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20050725230636.html


As discussed already practically every component that we are aware of in the PS3 is cutting edge technology - NextGen. If a console was to have a chance of lasting anywhere close to 10 years than one would have to admit Sony are giving the PS3 one hell of a chance at it. I believe they have already shown how serious they are about this commitment.



Lastly THE BIG ONE



March 14, 2006 - At the PlayStation Business Briefing 2006, Ken Kutaragi has just added another infamous quote to his belt, this time stating that PS3 games are "live" and that the PS3 concept is "4D" http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/696/696060p1.html


At the time of hearing this whole world thought this MAN has really gone MAD.
4D ?? ! ! I personally became little fearful for Sony to see someone so high up talking gibberish.

Than yesterday as I was scouring the web for information on the RSX, I came across a forum where a member had discreetly left created a thread, left a message & practically disappeared –still no chance to thanks him. It immediately rang BELLS & WHISTLES *&^%$ ! .

It was a link to a PATENT that connected Kens infamous words from E3 2005 ‘4D’ to a PATENT that a number of technical guys verified that the patents decisively relate to NVIDIA G80 !

Hang on we have MAD Ken shouting ‘4D’ ] to world media & we have a NVIDIA GPU PATENT shouting ‘4D’ technology.

See quote from patent.




Originally Posted by version


4D !

"A discrete BRDF is naturally stored in a 4D lookup table.
While commercially available graphics hardware has long had
2D texture mapping capability, no hardware currently in use
has the 4D texture mapping capability necessary to implement
this natural representation. Even if 4D texture mapping were
implemented, the tables required to hold a measured BRDF would
be quite large. At four bytes per sample (single-precision
floating point) and a modest sampling rate of approximately
twenty samples per radian (or a parabolic parameterization of
64.times.64 samples), a BRDF requires 64 MB of memory. Since
a modern graphics accelerator board has only 64 MB of total
texture memory, this storage requirement is prohibitively large.
Conventional texture compression algorithms can reduce the space
requirement, but not by more than an order of magnitude.
"
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...s&RS=Papakipos


I believe Crazy Ken was ranting about this EXACT 4D TEXTURE technology that the PS3 would come to possess i.e a RSX feature.
The man is not crazy but just obsessed about creating the first ever True NextGen console.

I did a little further exploring and also came across the patent referring to GPU’s Audio processing abilities. We are roughly aware that RSX would also handle Audio in some manner but no one has pinpointed to as how.




A graphics system including a custom graphics and audio processor produces exciting 2D and 3D graphics and surround sound. The system includes a graphics and audio processor including a 3D graphics pipeline and an audio digital signal processor. Logical combination of N alpha compares can be used to provide a wide range of imaging effects including but not limited to cartoon outlining.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=Papakipos&OS=Papakipos


The patent is 40+ pages & I have not really explored any more at all.
The two examples given are both supposedly from PATENTS belonging to G80 technology. When I asked some technical guys to verify what they thought the patents pointed to I made sure not to put words in there mouths & create a bias of any sort.
In fact they thought I was looking for them to say it was the RSX.

Although what I have shown is not CONCRETE evidence that G80 is RSX but it is the closest we will get to making an educated guess with what little resources we have.

I believe these patent findings combined with my previously discussed arguments enforce what I have suspected about the relationship between the G80 & RSX .

It also makes me think that the RSX is pretty far from being a lightly customised 7800/7900.



1. 4D Lookup Table Support –only G80 feature
2. Video & Audio Processing –only G80 feature
3. GPU Built In HDCP support –only G80 feature



Whether the RSX is a custom 7800 core or a new G80 core it will definitely have to share features of the G80.

Does this mean that RSX will have everything the G80 has e.g. DX10 & SM4 ?
I don’t know & that cannot be answered for sure with what little information we have at hand. The RSX & G80 are termed differently to meet the needs of two different architectures that they must serve -PS3 & PC. But what is clear to me is that we will get a RSX GPU that is MUCH MORE powerful & feature rich than we were all led to believe. It will be worthy to call it ‘NextGen’ & it will match well with the rest of the PS3’s NextGen components.


Thanks


Archy

Additional Reading




Summary / Partial Transcript Of The Following Webcast:
NVIDIA Corporation at Morgan Stanley Semiconductor & Systems Conference (Replay)
03/07/06 at 8:45 a.m. PT

- "Increasing flexibility of the programmability, enabling the artists to express themselves in a free way."
- "Our next generation product will just take [effects] to a brand new level"
- "Our next generation product is the combination of 3 years of heavy-duty work. We started architecting it about 4 years ago, and, you know, my best calculations have this investing $250M into it already, and by the time it launches as well as the entire product family, we will have invested about $500M in R&D."
- "It is a spectacular computing machine and, uhm, we can't wait to show it to you later this year".
- "And this year, along with Vista, is going to introduce a very important new API, it's called DX10"
- "And DX10 is just a giant leap forward in unifying the way people program graphics. Instead of, you know,"
"vertices, and shaders and textures, it's unified in a very elegant way. And it's unified in a way that
"makes it possible for us to abstract [GPU] programming to the next level."
- "Our DX10 [part] is nearly finished now, and uhm, it'll be rolled out this year sometime."
- "And, uhm, if I have my way, our next generation GPU will be the first DX10 GPU in the world."






Ok, first let's put the summary of the invention out here because that really is as close to a brief synopsis as you get in a patent:


SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

New systems and methods for the processing of graphical data are disclosed. The systems include a graphics data-processing pipeline configured to generate vertex data that can be used as input to a subsequent pass through the graphics data-processing pipeline. In various embodiments, the vertex data is generated and stored in a format suitable as an input to a geometry processor or a fragment processor. For example, in some embodiments, vertex data is saved in a texture data format. Vertex data may, therefore, be manipulated using techniques that were conventionally restricted to texture data. For example, in some embodiments vertex data is rendered in a first pass through the graphics data-processing pipeline and then used by the geometry processor or the fragment processor in a second pass.

A graphics subsystem includes a geometry processor configured to receive input vertex data and process the input vertex data received to produce vertex data output, a resampler configured to receive the vertex data output of the geometry processor and to generate a resampler output responsive to the vertex data output received, a fragment processor configured to receive the resampler output, to modify the resampler output and to generate a fragment processor output responsive to the resampler output received and a raster analyzer configured to receive the fragment processor output and to generate processed vertex data as output in a format compatible with the geometry processor.

Another graphics subsystem includes a geometry processor configured to receive and produce vertex data, a resampler configured to receive the vertex data produced from the geometry processor and to provide resampled data, a fragment processor configured to receive the resampled data from the resampler and to modify the resampled data to produce fragment data, a raster analyzer configured to receive the fragment data from the fragment processor and output vertex data in a format compatible with the geometry processor and a local memory configured to store the vertex data output of the raster analyzer.

A method of processing graphics data including receiving vertex data at a fragment processor and receiving first vertex perturbation data at the fragment processor. The vertex data received and the first vertex perturbation data is combined using the fragment processor to produce first perturbed vertex data.

Another method for processing graphics data including receiving vertex data, receiving control points representing a primitive surface contour and receiving shader program instructions. The shader program instructions are executed in a fragment processor to produce processed vertex data using the vertex data.

An apparatus for processing graphics data, including a geometry processor to receive primitives and configured to generate vertices responsive to the primitives received, a resampler to receive the vertices and configurable for a first mode and a second mode, wherein the first mode the resampler adapted to increase sample density of the primitives responsive to the vertices to provide polygon meshes and a fragment processor to receive the polygon meshes and to receive control points, the control points being associated with the polygon meshes, the fragment processor configured to produce patches responsive to the polygon meshes and the control points, the patches having surface contours.

A computing system including a host computer and a graphics subsystem. The graphics subsystem including a geometry processor configured to receive input vertex data from the host computer, to receive processed vertex data and to produce a vertex data output. The graphics subsystem also including a resampler configured to receive the vertex data output of the geometry processor and to generate a resampler output, a fragment processor configured to receive the resampler output, to modify the resampler output and to generate a fragment processor output, and a raster analyzer configured to receive the fragment processor output and to generate the processed vertex data as output in a format compatible with the geometry processor.

Another graphics subsystem including means for receiving input vertex data and processed vertex data and for producing a vertex data output, means for receiving the vertex data output and for generating a resampled output, means for receiving the resampled output, for modifying the resampled output and for generating a fragment output and means for receiving the fragment output and for generating the processed vertex data as output in a format compatible with the means for receiving input vertex data.


Now... what does it all mean, as simply as possible? Basically I read it as a patent describing NVidia's hardware solution to the DX10 geometry shading requirement. Of course it doesn't mention DX10 by name, but that is nonetheless what would form the impetus behind such a move, as geometry shading is required for DX10 compliance - and G80 is compliant...

[..::D::..]

Damn good post Archy! :D

I'm going to look into this personally, and if your sources seem quite legit, I think you are really on to something... If this turns out to be true, that was some mighty fine sleuthing! :wink:

[Kaako]

Archy I sure hope you're right...however, I will not be disappointed with a modified 7800/7900 GTX either. I cannot wait till TGS, I just hope they shed a little more light on the RSX and its specs...

[archy141]

Archy I sure hope you're right...however, I will not be disappointed with a modified 7800/7900 GTX either. I cannot wait till TGS, I just hope they shed a little more light on the RSX and its specs...

No one hold me to anything please..


I have just done lot of work round the clock for few days to get this info together in a meaningful format to share with you all. I was like a man possesed & glad its over -i hope.


Be happy with PS3 whatever it is. If you get a BIG bonus than you do.. no big deal.




Archy

[Crazy Phat]

I think people misinterpreted the whole ''Ten Years'' thing. Similar to how the PS1 lasted like 11-12 years, and how the PS2 seems to be going the same road, they want that to continue with the PS3. Of course there will be a PS4 5-7 years from now. But they put future proof technology inside the PS3 to make sure it last you ten years or even more. It has next gen everything. It has so much future proof stuff packed inside, that it will last you ten years. But for some strange reason, people are thinking they meant 10 years until the PS4 comes out. Do you guys seriously think they will make the Xbox 720 come out 4-6 years from now and the PS4 comes out like 5-6 years after the Xbox 720. The Xbox 720 would have a huge fanbase by the time the PS4 comes if that were to happen. As soon as Sony hears when the Xbox 720 is coming, they will make sure they come out at a time were they will be just in time before the Xbox 720 gets enough marketshare. Heck, the PS3 was supposed to launch next year 2007 but since the 360 was announced to come out in 2005, they had no choice but to launch it in 2006.

[..::D::..]

Some new news, posted yesterday!



http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060728-7379.html

senior vice president Takao Yuhara has warned investors that the division could face even greater losses as the launch of the PS3 nears. He told analysts that the costs of some of the console's component microchips were rising. Whether this means the Cell processor itself, the NVIDIA graphics processing unit, or chips related to the Blu-ray drive, the Sony VP did not reveal.

More and more information points to your theory being very hard clad! :D

Either way though, I'm not letting my hopes raise to high... It would be awesome though! :)

[Ricokillercon]

I doubt cell is the reason for the extra cost...i mean cell was ready before rsx was....

[Theman2k]

Sony started working on the CELL and PS3 on the second they finished PS2.
I won't be suprised if PS4 is in the works.

[..::D::..]

To be honest, I would really rather see more ram... But hey, any upgrades are nice!

[Guilty Bystander]

Well it sure as hell will not be a G80 considering the G80 has been rumoured to be around the 450-500 million transistorcount whereas the RSX is said to be around the 300 million transistors.
END OF STORY!

RSX might have some small G80 features with it's G71 architecture but that will be about it.
Almost all developers have stated the Xenos has the edge over the RSX.

Oh and by the way this wouldn't be the first time Sony comprimised on the GPU.
They did so with the PS2 and the PSP.
Only the PS1 had a good GPU for it's time.

[Ricokillercon]

Well it sure as hell will not be a G80 considering the G80 has been rumoured to be around the 450-500 million transistorcount whereas the RSX is said to be around the 300 million transistors.
END OF STORY!

RSX might have some small G80 features with it's G71 architecture but that will be about it.
Almost all developers have stated the Xenos has the edge over the RSX.


All that was said before final rsx in june....

[dead_zen]

I see a hybrid happening here to better make the leap.

In effect, doesn't the Cell work like it's in SLI with it's shared graphics capabilities?

[Guilty Bystander]

I see a hybrid happening here to better make the leap.

In effect, doesn't the Cell work like it's in SLI with it's shared graphics capabilities?


No no the Cell can assist in pre and post processing with the power of about a 7900GTX.
In terms of realtime graphics processing Cell would only be about the power of a GeForce FX5600/5700 or something similar.

Also when adding too much Cell power for pre and/or post processing will leave you less power for other things like complex AI, physics, animation, game code etc.

[PS Party]

Just hurry up November so we can all see for ourselves.

[mynd]

[quote]
1. 4D Lookup Table Support –only G80 feature
2. Video & Audio Processing –only G80 feature
3. GPU Built In HDCP support –only G80 feature



Man you are clutching at straws here.

Look the orignal MCP chipset for the original xbox from nvidia had a custom audio chip in it. So what?
Look it's not "JUST" going to be a graphics card slung on the back of the Cell, it will be customised, but at it's heart will be the older archetecture, not the G80.

[razorblade416]

Wow, it's dead tied at 45 votes each on whether it's exact same as E3 or completly different! :shock: My vote is in the "completly diffent" category. I really think you're onto something archy, especially with this new 4D thing :wink:

[archy141]

Does anyone think if the RSX could implement 4D Texture Mapping Function that PS3's 128bit BANDWIDTH issues would be eleviated ?



Archy

[Lefein]

This isn't fair, to be perfectly honest. The RSX doesn't even need to be G80 based and unless Sony knows something we don't know about someone else making a console, all they really need is a G70 based RSX to put some hurt on the competition.

The notion that it is 7900 based is good enough to be an OVERKILL! Any talk of the RSX not being able to handle 1080p went straight out the window when AGEIA said the RSX was "7900+"... A 7900 can run games at higher resolutions than my brand new monitor.

Please, for the sake of the forum, please don't make already unrealistic expectations even worse. The developers will ultimately decide the power of the PS3, not the hardware. Will you be upset if the RSX is 7900 or even 7800 based? I sure wouldn't be. I'd rather Sony spend their time licensing a 7800 and using good quality RAM than dump everything into a newer untested (at this time) architecture that belongs in a lab and not a console. Just look at the Xenos and how much of a waste the EDRAM is. Sure, it's great for multipass and MIPs but it also has an achilees heel in geometry as a result.

So, why not just be happy? Why don't we go back to the moon first before going to Mars? Until I hear ANY indication that Sony is putting in orders for GDDR4, theres no chance in hell that the RSX will be G80 based.. But I don't care! Noones put a 7900 on a bus like Flex I/O!

[Guilty Bystander]

This isn't fair, to be perfectly honest. The RSX doesn't even need to be G80 based and unless Sony knows something we don't know about someone else making a console, all they really need is a G70 based RSX to put some hurt on the competition.


Hurt on the Wii yeah but not on the Xbox 360.
Xenos > any G71



The notion that it is 7900 based is good enough to be an OVERKILL! Any talk of the RSX not being able to handle 1080p went straight out the window when AGEIA said the RSX was "7900+"... A 7900 can run games at higher resolutions than my brand new monitor.


A GPU is never an overkill!
By the way 7900+ can mean 7900GT and since the 7900GT only runs 450MHz core while RSX runs 550MHz.



Please, for the sake of the forum, please don't make already unrealistic expectations even worse. The developers will ultimately decide the power of the PS3, not the hardware. Will you be upset if the RSX is 7900 or even 7800 based? I sure wouldn't be.


Power is always the key factor otherwise why bring a new console.



I'd rather Sony spend their time licensing a 7800 and using good quality RAM than dump everything into a newer untested (at this time) architecture that belongs in a lab and not a console.


At least we do agrea on something.



Just look at the Xenos and how much of a waste the EDRAM is. Sure, it's great for multipass and MIPs but it also has an achilees heel in geometry as a result.


eDRAM a waste?
It's not a waste as future games will point out.
eDRAM good for MIPS?
What are you going on about?

[Lefein]

This isn't fair, to be perfectly honest. The RSX doesn't even need to be G80 based and unless Sony knows something we don't know about someone else making a console, all they really need is a G70 based RSX to put some hurt on the competition.


Hurt on the Wii yeah but not on the Xbox 360.
Xenos > any G71

It can't even hang with the G71 on a PCI bus, what in God's name are you going on about?


Oblivion looks better on a high-end PC than on the Xbox 360. Note the additional foliage visible in the background. We matched up resolutions for screenshot comparison purposes here, but a high-end PC with an AMD Athlon FX-60 CPU and GeForce 7900 GTX graphics card can enable all the settings and take resolutions up to 1600x1200 or more and still maintain smooth frame rates. We noticed that the Xbox 360 version had better antialiasing since our PC version couldn't enable HDR and antialiasing at the same time. Of course on the PC version, you can get rid of jaggies the old-fashioned way by jacking up the resolution.
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6147028/p-2.html

[GunTeng]

Interesting read, but I can't help but think these people have been letting their imaginations run wild.
Who in gods name ever said that SONY's marketing ploy was aimed at MS & to get them to show their hand?
For all we know their marketing strategy was aimed at us in its entirety.

It could make sense that SONY paid Nvidia to aid their research & developement of the G80, for the sole purpose of having a liscence to use the product in the PS3. It could be that SONY paid that money for Nvidia to develop the G80 for the PS3 1st, & then it could be developed for the PC ( this would explain the G80 being available for the PS3 before the PC if there is any fact in it).

But to be brutally honest, it all just sounds too good to be true. I know SONY are hyping that the Next-Gen consoles do not exist until the PS3 is released & the G80 would make the PS3 unbeatable for gaming. And the price would partly reflect that.
But seriously....... For a console, this is way too far fetched.

I would love to see the PS3 with the highest graphical capability for games, even better than the newest PC's. But as far as I am concerned, its a bit of a fairy tale.
I'll be happy with the PS3 as it was originally believed to be, even with a rehashed 7800.:)

[Kauldron]

I don't know about Sony altering the RSX, but having Samsung's
GDDR4 implemented sure would be nice.

Talking about razor edge. :D

[Ricokillercon]

One quick question how much better is GDDR4 comare to 3?

[panson feo]

Wishful thinking there buddy.

Just check out what everyone beyond3d.com said when he posted this exact same info over there.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32337

Basically everyone agreed youre a dreamer. This thread should be locked.

[hypermaniac85]

Basically everyone agreed youre a dreamer. This thread should be locked.

This thread shouldn't be locked. There is no flaming going on, and everybody is just speculating.

Even archy141 has sayed that he is dreaming; he is just finding facts to support his dream.

I honestly believe that the RSX will be more powerful than a 7900 gtx, but not a G80 card. Maybe more like a hybrid between a g70 and a g80, but leading more towards a g70 card, technology wise, than a g80 card. But that's my thoughts on it.

[archy141]

This thread should be locked.



Isn't the purpose of forums, to provide a place where we can speculate and debate points of view ?


Just look at the poll on this thread , It reflects the interest & curiosity of this forums members on the discussed subject. Just because another forums members have different opinion doesn't mean ours is wrong. They are dead set on it being a NV47 core with specs pretty much as laid out in E3 2005. They are not prepared to look at any kind of speculation but only discuss Hard Evidence.




If everyone waited to have definitive specs -Their wouldn't be much need to speculate nor talk about since the specs are right there.

Speculation breaths a lot of life into threads, with newer information seeping in little by little to help direct discussion.



I have always made it clear repeatedly; this thread is based on speculation, lot of which arise from unexplained anomalies.

I for one will be glad to own a PS3 whatever RSX turns out to be. PS3 is a lot more than just a games console for me.



Archy

[Guilty Bystander]

can't even hang with the G71 on a PCI bus, what in God's name are you going on about?




http://www.gamespot.com/features/6147028/p-2.html


So let me get this straight you're judging Xenos by a port?
We'll see with games one or two years from now how right I am.


Isn't the purpose of forums, to provide a place where we can speculate and debate points of view ?


Just look at the poll on this thread , It reflects the interest & curiosity of this forums members on the discussed subject. Just because another forums members have different opinion doesn't mean ours is wrong. They are dead set on it being a NV47 core with specs pretty much as laid out in E3 2005. They are not prepared to look at any kind of speculation but only discuss Hard Evidence.



I have always made it clear repeatedly; this thread is based on speculation, lot of which arise from unexplained anomalies.

I for one will be glad to own a PS3 whatever RSX turns out to be. PS3 is a lot more than just a games console for me.



Archy

Well Archy listen up here.
I've seen you posting this junk on all kinds of different forums (this one, E-mpire forums, Beyond3d etc.) and I really disaprove in what you're doing.
Considering most forum readers don't have any technical knowledge like some of us they don't know you're wrong so they might start believing you and expecting this dream (because that's all it is) to happen.
This way you'll start giving a lot of forum readers false hope for something that will never be.
And on top of that you're giving Sony and the PlayStation name a bad name aswell as people in the future will start saying Sony was overpromising and underdelivering kind of like the same as people are saying about the PS2 not delivering Toy Story graphics.
THIS IS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!!

[DarkChild]

has anyone stopped to ask the obvious question. if ken went to IBM and asked for the most powerful cpu they can think of, would he not have gone to Nvidia with the same question? and seeing how they've been working on this G80 for more then three years now...well only a thought...then again they've also been working on a G90, anyone care to speculate on that? lol

[Lefein]

I'll be perfectly honest Guilty Bystander.. I have not drawn a full conclusion yet. I've only seen *evidence* to the contrary of your absolute statement that Xenos is better. I honestly do expect the Xenos to have a more robust feature set than the RSX, but the downside to that is that the Xenon processor does not assist in graphics the same way Cell can. So, it's highly possible that in the end it wont matter. It's equally just as likely that the Xenos simply hasn't been explored by the developers yet and my Oblivion comparison truly is out of what and "port-ish".

What I WILL say is though.. You CERTAINLY have not a clue as to what the RSX can do because you have not seen it in action. The tech specs DID change since E3 of 05. Sony extended RSX development into January of this year and that throws out all speculation on the performance. Sony has not made a single peep about RSX since TGS 05 and that was long before the redesign was complete.

I wouldn't necessarily make statements like "Xenos>RSX" because Halo3 could very well look like some overly done shiny high end PC like graphics while Lair on the other hand could put the "Wow factor" back in the next-generation. I'm waiting for both games to come out since they will be the earliest big push of each respective system. I'm only being fair.

[archy141]

Archy

Well Archy listen up here.
I've seen you posting this junk on all kinds of different forums (this one, E-mpire forums, Beyond3d etc.) and I really disaprove in what you're doing.
Considering most forum readers don't have any technical knowledge like some of us they don't know you're wrong so they might start believing you and expecting this dream (because that's all it is) to happen.
This way you'll start giving a lot of forum readers false hope for something that will never be.
And on top of that you're giving Sony and the PlayStation name a bad name aswell as people in the future will start saying Sony was overpromising and underdelivering kind of like the same as people are saying about the PS2 not delivering T oy Story graphics.
THIS IS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!!

I believe people on these forums have enough intellect to read & decide for themselves what is wrong & right. It’s not like I didn't make it clear from the starting & throughout the thread that all my reasoning is based on speculation. I have not tried to mislead anyone knowingly by providing false information or conclusions.

Also how can you insinuate my postings are so technical that they might confuse the not so knowledgeable ?

I REPEAT my postings are all just pure speculation based on given reasoning & arguments that are expressed in basic laymen terms. There is no detailed technical talk from my behalf. In fact its you that comes ranting on this thread & coming out with numerical figures to compare against Xenos. If you & others wish to go off-track & get technical I can't control that.

Let me remind you



Silly silly silly kids!
Ati have stated in terms of RAW power the Xenos is in between the X1800XT and the X1900XTX.
In terms of featureset and shader power (executions and instructions not Shader ops) the Xenos is better than the X1900XTX and worse than the R600.
...
Just thinking this sheet is true the Xenos will have more RAW power than the RSX.
Xenos can 480Flops (48 ALU's x 10 instructions) per clock running 500MHz Core is more than 384Flops per clock running 550MHz.


And me giving Sony a bad name ? What are you on ?

A while back everyone was very down in these forums due to all of the ongoing negative media coverage. I believe my thread has indirectly helped some people gather there thoughts again & understand what the PS3 truly is & why they were interested in it in the first place.

I think most people will agree if anything i have been most positive about Sony & its creation. As i have stated they are the only ones to give us a NextGen console - whatever RSX is. And my preorder is gladly placed.

You have made it very clear you love the XBOX360 very much. But that’s no excuse for you to go & try to put off others from debating matters relating to the PS3 .

Not once in this thread have you been straight up & said whether you agree or disagree with sensible reasoning to back it up. Maybe your head is too clouded by your love for XBOX360 & as a result you are not able to debate openly on matters relating to the PS3. Why don't you go & play something decent on XBOX360 instead ?

Fanboyism can even destroy the best of forums through non impartial opinions that do nothing other than justify there own personal interests & investments. THIS IS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!!

[archy141]

*removed to reflect "Lefein's"amended post*


Taken care of Lefein !

Archy.

[Lefein]

Drat, I deleted that part of my post for a reason...

[Shred0r]

Some more info on the status quo of the existence of DirectX10 cards. Taken out from the latest preview on Crysis.
http://ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=524966#524966



Since DirectX 10 cards didn't exist in May, the Crysis demo at the Electronic Entertainment Expo was actually running on DirectX 9 video cards, which is a good indication of what sorts of visuals you'll get with current hardware.

Of course, if you want the game to look the absolute finest, you'll need DirectX 10 hardware. It's a bit hard to get DirectX 10 cards right now, though, since they're not on the market, but the first cards should be out by the time Crysis ships.

[...]when it [Crysis] ships sometime this winter.

According to the info gathered from the latest interview with a Nvidia guy, their "DX10 parts" were nearly finished at the time the interview was made on the 8th of March...

According to some dev guys working with the PS3, the final SDK's were getting in some time after the E³...

And you know what i think about his statement of how it's hard these days to get a sample of DX10 hardware for the PC?
It's because all the produced DX10 parts needed for a DX10 graphics card are needed totally for the production of the PS3 ^^
And furthermore NVIDIA already said that they will be the first one to ship a DX10 card on the market. So from where to get DX10 stuff better than from NVIDIA when they claim to be on the top of DX10 hardware development? i guess that right know all finished DX10 parts are addressed to the PS3 production...

lol, keep your fingers crossed. At least the RSX will be more powerfull than a GeForce 400 MX :)
you can make more out of it but sadly i have to leave now... ;)

[panson feo]

Im sorry man, but I just have to laugh at your whole "4D Krazy Ken" stuff. When Ken was babbling about 4D he was talking about their online service AND OTHER STUFF.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8735/sce1161dofb7.jpg
More proof that its not G80, besides the fact that first party devs had their final dev kits before E3.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29579

[wotter]

I think this slide from GDC says it all:

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4691/slidelc5.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slidelc5.jpg)

@panson feo: final Cell / RSX were ready end March, but the BD-drive + Controller weren't. Final Cell / RSX / Bd-drive / Controller were ready around E3.

[HiX]

Why does people keep relating DX10 to PS3? PS3 wont be using DX10 at all.

[Mich]

What I WILL say is though.. You CERTAINLY have not a clue as to what the RSX can do because you have not seen it in action. The tech specs DID change since E3 of 05. Sony extended RSX development into January of this year and that throws out all speculation on the performance. Sony has not made a single peep about RSX since TGS 05 and that was long before the redesign was complete.

Can you say anything about what specs of the rsx changed since e3? Was it in a positive or negative way? Or would you be violating your nda there :cry: ?

[archy141]

Im sorry man, but I just have to laugh at your whole "4D Krazy Ken" stuff. When Ken was babbling about 4D he was talking about their online service AND OTHER STUFF.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8735/sce1161dofb7.jpg

Seen that image already. It ws bought to attention by a Beyond3d member.. Funnily enough it was the same chap that verified the patents being G80 related. Could be i got this speculation wrong.. but than Sony are always talking subliminal weird stuff. Maybe the 4D buzz word came to Sony's marketing after they were made aware of the unique 4D texture mapping technology. Who knows for sure.. only time will tell . .



More proof that its not G80, besides the fact that first party devs had their final dev kits before E3.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29579


Can you please be kind enough to point out EXACTLY to WHERE a developer is admitting to them having a Final Development Kit with RSX in its final form* ?

You would be doing us a really big favour if yuo can dig that quote out. Until than speculating can continue :)


*Cell even existed in 2.4GHz in kits.. same can go for RSX in that it can change. As long as the GPU they are programming with currently use's same API's as final RSX will than they can keep the true RSX hidden till very end. Developers would not have to know about it.

Archy

[mrboo]

archy121 got laughed out of B3D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[wotter]

Can you please be kind enough to point out EXACTLY to WHERE a developer is admitting to them having a Final Development Kit with RSX in its final form* ?



Sry, now news from devs, but here is a slide from Sony:

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/7678/slide2ti4.th.jpg (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide2ti4.jpg)

[..::D::..]

archy121 got laughed out of B3D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

wow man.. wow... Whooptido... wow... congrats.. wow... WOW.........Wow..

[archy141]

Sry, now news from devs, but here is a slide from Sony:




Thanks for that find.

It certainly indicates Sony's intended schedule back in March but isn't necessarily concrete in eveidence to say developers actually have final RSX in there kits. Sorry but someone has to play the devils advocate..

Whilst we are hunting for information - Can anyone confirm MrBoo's age ?

I SPECULATE we have a Giggly Juvenile Girl amongst us men.






Archy

[DarkChild]

has anyone stopped to ask the obvious question. if ken went to IBM and asked for the most powerful cpu they can think of, would he not have gone to Nvidia with the same question? and seeing how they've been working on this G80 for more then three years now...well only a thought...then again they've also been working on a G90, anyone care to speculate on that? lol

[archy141]

has anyone stopped to ask the obvious question. if ken went to IBM and asked for the most powerful cpu they can think of, would he not have gone to Nvidia with the same question? and seeing how they've been working on this G80 for more then three years now...well only a thought...then again they've also been working on a G90, anyone care to speculate on that? lol

Lolz thats the second time you have tried to bring that up.

You know my opinion already though.

Just to add as some people can't fathom the idea of a brand new huge G80 sitting in a PS3:

I think it is probable that the RSX is G70 (N47) based but it is customised & shares the features of G80 -not necessarily all. A Hybrid somewhere between the two.

The G80 is specifically for the PC market & it has to a lot more to make up for its poor architecture.


Archy