What is the most important task of the new NASA administrator...? Muslim outreach?

[weskurtz81]

I thought this was pretty interesting, and not really in the scope of what NASA does, so thought I would get the opinions of the forum goers! <br />
<br />
Engagequadlasr, even though you are still mad at me...

[Tutankhamun]

I think NASA should just focus on space and go to Mars. Or finally tell the truth but we all know that wont happen.

[weskurtz81]

I think NASA should just focus on space and go to Mars. Or finally tell the truth but we all know that wont happen.

LOL, speaking of the moon landing? Really don't think it happened or making a joke?

[Tutankhamun]

LOL, speaking of the moon landing? Really don't think it happened or making a joke?

I believe the moon landing happened, the interesting thing is what happened when they got there. This if it did or did not happen is a plan to distract people from the real truth.

[weskurtz81]

I believe the moon landing happened, the interesting thing is what happened when they got there. This if it did or did not happen is a plan to distract people from the real truth.

Talking about the shadow conspiracy etc? If not, what is it?

[Tutankhamun]

Talking about the shadow conspiracy etc? If not, what is it?

I believe we we're told to get of the moon when we got there. And I do also believe there is a shadow space agency that might have built bases on the "dark" side of the moon.

Don't want to derail your thread here so let me know if I am.

[Funeralfog]

i dont think Muhammad wants them to go to space. just sayin' but what a stupid goal of NASA

[Lefein]

I think the marines should have to give everyone flowers on their birthday and the Navy should save sealions from sharks.

[spyrde]

http://i28.tinypic.com/2vl8jk1.jpg

[keefy]

Should just focus the resources on everyone intsead of singling out Muslims.

[squirrelbo1]

well, to specifically highlight one specific group, seems a bit pointless, but nasa do have to get people interested in it, becuase otherwise there will be nobody to do the jobs in the future.

[Firefox]

Right okay let's not meet with other nations, religions or races for the betterment of Science and discovery. :roll:

[weskurtz81]

Right okay let's not meet with other nations, religions or races for the betterment of Science and discovery. :roll:


That's not what I read in that quote from the new NASA admin. He said he was tasked with "reach[ing] out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering".

That's what gets me, make them feel good about historic contributions? How about reaching out to foreign nations to to advance space travel etc? This isn't about 'making people feel good', it's about advancing technology and our species. That's where I hang up with those comments.

If a nation has NOTHING to contribute, well, then we shouldn't waste our time IMO. Should NASA reach out to Haiti if it were a "Muslim" nation? What does which religion you follow have to do with ANYTHING? Why not reach out to countries across the world that have something to contribute? How about that for starters?

[gillmanjr]

It actually does somewhat fall into the scope of NASA and I believe that Obama might be on to something with this. The exploration of space isn't REALLY going to start happening until all technologically advanced nations start to work together toward a common goal. Muslims do, in fact, tend to make excellent engineers and I happen to work with one (I'm an engineer - Aerospace).

The cost of space exploration is simply too great to be done alone. Everyone says "Lets just go to Mars, we have the technology" and it's true. What we don't have is the budget. People tend to grossly underestimate the cost of a manned trip to Mars - make no mistake - the cost would exceed a trillion dollars. Besides, that isn't the next logical step - the next step is setting up a base of operations on the Moon. The moon is EXTREMELY close to earth in comparison to everything else and it's small size and lack of atmosphere make it a perfect point from which to start branching out into the rest of solar system. Launching manned flights from the moon would cut costs dramatically.

So yeah I think Obama's goal here is to get the Muslim world in line with the U.S. and try to get them on board so we can start exploring - it's going to be a very slow process. And the reason why he is singling out Muslims is because there is a very large disconnect between the U.S. and the Muslim world right now (obviously). Most of the other technologically advanced societies are already allied with the U.S. and have either already worked jointly with us or would be willing to.

[Firefox]

That's not what I read in that quote from the new NASA admin. He said he was tasked with "reach[ing] out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering".

That's what gets me, make them feel good about historic contributions? How about reaching out to foreign nations to to advance space travel etc? This isn't about 'making people feel good', it's about advancing technology and our species. That's where I hang up with those comments.

If a nation has NOTHING to contribute, well, then we shouldn't waste our time IMO. Should NASA reach out to Haiti if it were a "Muslim" nation? What does which religion you follow have to do with ANYTHING? Why not reach out to countries across the world that have something to contribute? How about that for starters?

You are taking his quote quite literally. So you really expect them to just go and literally "make themselves feel good for their previous achievements"? :lol: As for working with other nations and educating children...NASA already work with many countries heavily in collaboration.

You sound like you're saying NASA never collaborates with other space programs and is suddenly focusing on mulsims only..

edit: And I am 100% positive that when he said muslim he obviously was just referring to the muslim nations in the middle east only (I am sure not every country like Indonesia, Malaysia or Turkey)

Main thing is: Unless you have a transcript of the entire interview and the context of the entire interview how can you judge what exactly he was referring to anyways? Its more along the lines of the importance of scientific education in the Middle East and drawing in from the contributions from all the nations including the Middle East. (if you watch the interview you see how important contributions are from other nations such as the one he describes from Japan)



Here is the entire interview..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e857ZcuIfnI

[DreDayDetox]

yes, their historic contribution to math and science spawned suicide bombers and religious extremists hell-bent on making the Western World pay for their indecency of culture "death to America!" a famous line in the Muslim extremist community...

[King Sickness]

I believe we we're told to get of the moon when we got there. And I do also believe there is a shadow space agency that might have built bases on the "dark" side of the moon.

Don't want to derail your thread here so let me know if I am.
Sounds a lot like the movie Iron Sky. Who could have possibly colonized earth before we got there? If it was humans how could the technology have been that advance so long ago?

I start college this fall and will be studying AeroSpace Engineering. One day hopefully I'll be able to go into space, that's my ultimate dream. It's just sickening how our planet does not get along, we have so many conflicting religions, beliefs, and tons of conspiracies that will always keep nations apart. There's so many secrets about space missions that the governments and companies like NASA aren't telling us.

[Hitman_T92]

yes, their historic contribution to math and science spawned suicide bombers and religious extremists hell-bent on making the Western World pay for their indecency of culture "death to America!" a famous line in the Muslim extremist community...
http://sieabah.net/random/randomimages/lol/facepalm_implied.jpg
math science medicine the idea of flying and alot more started from muslim scientists

[Hitman_T92]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLE2htv9oxc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZDe9DCx7Wk&feature=related

[Tutankhamun]

Sounds a lot like the movie Iron Sky. Who could have possibly colonized earth before we got there? If it was humans how could the technology have been that advance so long ago?

Look at the Anunnaki theory. Do you know there is ancient texts that speak of a time when the moon wasn't in the sky? The texts describe that one night the moon was just there, out of the blue! This leads me to think that the moon is one big spaceship. Another interesting things is when they landed on the moon it rang like a bell for a long time (the exact time has eluded me I can look it up in one of my books if you want)


There's so many secrets about space missions that the governments and companies like NASA aren't telling us.

For sure, but if you want to work for NASA you better not speak of these things. It's not appreciated within NASA that you do.

[SpyroViper]

Imo, if religious persons choose not to believe overwhelming evidence that they are wrong, then nothing is going to sway them. If NASA want more people to take up science and math, then they need to make those subject INTERESTING! At school in science, all we did was put copper into a beaker and pour different chemicals into it and watch it fizz, I got to disect an Onion once.. ooo fun!

Don't even talk a bout Math, I failed lol. There's more to life than adding up the square root of 15 feet and * pie plus recurring.. urgh boriiiiing!

[DreDayDetox]

http://sieabah.net/random/randomimages/lol/facepalm_implied.jpg
math science medicine the idea of flying and alot more started from muslim scientists


haha, I knew I'd offend someone here, though I don't see it that way at all since I only referred to "EXTREMIST" religious Muslims (NOT, law abiding, faithful, PEACEFUL Muslim people), but since you were offended, you are one then? I have no doubt that what they invented isn't true, but if you're going to stick with science, then why continue to have faith, wouldn't relying on science be against "Jah"? And this question is really for any religion. Don't get your panties in a bunch, cupcake.

[SpyroViper]

math science medicine the idea of flying and alot more started from muslim scientists

But the wright brothers put it into practice, they weren't muslim lol. Having an idea is nothing spectacular, making it happen is.

I have an idea of instantaneous travel to the andromeda galaxy, therefore, I'm now great!

[Arkano6]

I believe we we're told to get of the moon when we got there. And I do also believe there is a shadow space agency that might have built bases on the "dark" side of the moon.

Don't want to derail your thread here so let me know if I am.

Is there a name for this theory that I can read in detail else where, or is it just your belief?


I have an idea of instantaneous travel to the andromeda galaxy, therefore, I'm now great!

Is this before or after it collides with the Milky Way? :lol:.

[Tutankhamun]

Is there a name for this theory that I can read in detail else where, or is it just your belief?

Hmm not sure the theory has a name but it's not something I made up. I do think there's documentaries about it on YouTube, saw something about it on History a few years ago to. I'm sure you can find ton of info if you Google different moon theories.

EDIT: Here's some on it: http://www.ufocasebook.com/moon.html

[buzzkill1970]

You are taking his quote quite literally. So you really expect them to just go and literally "make themselves feel good for their previous achievements"? :lol:

Of course, when Obama says something completely ridiculous you shouldn't take him literally. Of course, that means that we would have to re-interpret just about everything he says, because everything he says is frickin' stupid. The man's a socialist (if not worse). I'm sure that "feel good" translates literally to "funnel American tax-payer dollars to". Making people "feel good" is a strong tenant of liberal philosophy. I'm sure it's just something he said without putting much thought into it because it's what he truly believes should happen.

What would be far more useful would be if he were to "make Americans feel good about themselves for previous achievements" by lowering income tax rates and making it retro-active.

I don't know, I'm not as wise as Obama, I'm certainly not a professor, but I think NASA should be primarily concerned with exploring space and related fields. We already have a 1000's of mechanism's for funneling money to foreign countries.

... and Canada sucks... nah, just kidding.

[Hitman_T92]

But the wright brothers put it into practice, they weren't muslim lol. Having an idea is nothing spectacular, making it happen is.

I have an idea of instantaneous travel to the andromeda galaxy, therefore, I'm now great!
he made studies about it
he didnt just say i want to fly

[squirrelbo1]

The man's a socialist (if not worse).


:lol: im sorry, what is wrong with being a socialist ? if he even if.

i mean if you had said, the man is a terrorist (if not worse) i could understand that being bad.


and he's not a socialist, he is a liberal at most, and if im honest, he's not really liberal. the conservative party over here, are in line with the democrats over there, and tbh obama is a little more to the left than previous presidents, but he is still right of centre.

[weskurtz81]

It actually does somewhat fall into the scope of NASA and I believe that Obama might be on to something with this. The exploration of space isn't REALLY going to start happening until all technologically advanced nations start to work together toward a common goal. Muslims do, in fact, tend to make excellent engineers and I happen to work with one (I'm an engineer - Aerospace).

The cost of space exploration is simply too great to be done alone. Everyone says "Lets just go to Mars, we have the technology" and it's true. What we don't have is the budget. People tend to grossly underestimate the cost of a manned trip to Mars - make no mistake - the cost would exceed a trillion dollars. Besides, that isn't the next logical step - the next step is setting up a base of operations on the Moon. The moon is EXTREMELY close to earth in comparison to everything else and it's small size and lack of atmosphere make it a perfect point from which to start branching out into the rest of solar system. Launching manned flights from the moon would cut costs dramatically.

So yeah I think Obama's goal here is to get the Muslim world in line with the U.S. and try to get them on board so we can start exploring - it's going to be a very slow process. And the reason why he is singling out Muslims is because there is a very large disconnect between the U.S. and the Muslim world right now (obviously). Most of the other technologically advanced societies are already allied with the U.S. and have either already worked jointly with us or would be willing to.

That's a good take on the situation.


You are taking his quote quite literally. So you really expect them to just go and literally "make themselves feel good for their previous achievements"? :lol: As for working with other nations and educating children...NASA already work with many countries heavily in collaboration.

Sorry, but if he didn't mean that, he should have said it. And, as far as working with other nations, I never said I had an issue with that.


You sound like you're saying NASA never collaborates with other space programs and is suddenly focusing on mulsims only.

When did I say that? I said, why single out countries based on religion.


edit: And I am 100% positive that when he said muslim he obviously was just referring to the muslim nations in the middle east only (I am sure not every country like Indonesia, Malaysia or Turkey)

Sure, but why single them out in the first place? Why not just focus on every country that can contribute something?


Main thing is: Unless you have a transcript of the entire interview and the context of the entire interview how can you judge what exactly he was referring to anyways? Its more along the lines of the importance of scientific education in the Middle East and drawing in from the contributions from all the nations including the Middle East. (if you watch the interview you see how important contributions are from other nations such as the one he describes from Japan)


Of course NASA has benefited from the contribution of other nations, but was it policy before to only do the above with Christian nations? Is there really any reason to single out specific nations based on religion?

I think the guy above (gillmanjr) explained it much better, and not in such a defensive manner that you have approached this thread with.

[King Sickness]

Look at the Anunnaki theory. Do you know there is ancient texts that speak of a time when the moon wasn't in the sky? The texts describe that one night the moon was just there, out of the blue! This leads me to think that the moon is one big spaceship. Another interesting things is when they landed on the moon it rang like a bell for a long time (the exact time has eluded me I can look it up in one of my books if you want)



For sure, but if you want to work for NASA you better not speak of these things. It's not appreciated within NASA that you do.
Yeah I know man. After finding out about the Masons/Illuminati it made me realize our planet is just 1 giant secret. This is going to end up stabbing us on the foot.

What books talk about these theories? How long ago were these ancient texts written? Weren't the Anunnaki the race of proto beings that created humans 100,000 years ago?

Also who could possibly be on the moon for that long and not attack us? Or will they be attacking us in 2018? I know one thing for sure. Unless our governments started being more truthful and fair to us, along with these giant companies, our planet would get wiped out if some extraterrestrial force ever decided to attack us. Seriously it's really stupid how our government keeps all these things under wrap. In order to prepare for something that big it would need to be a world wide movement where every country is working together to produce a world wide army.

Have you heard of the movie Iron Sky?

[Tutankhamun]

Yeah I know man. After finding out about the Masons/Illuminati it made me realize our planet is just 1 giant secret. This is going to end up stabbing us on the foot.

Indeed.


What books talk about these theories? How long ago were these ancient texts written? Weren't the Anunnaki the race of proto beings that created humans 100,000 years ago?

Zecharia Sitchin has written a lot of books on the Annunaki, he was the one who first translated the Sumerian tablets talks about this. And yeah the Annunaki theory says according to the Sumerian tablets these 'gods' descended from their planet (Planet X or Nibiru) to harvest gold on this planet to save their planets atmosphere. These 'gods' then created man to do the work for them in their own image; That's us. Then they left when they had enough gold and we will just have to see if they return.


Also who could possibly be on the moon for that long and not attack us? Or will they be attacking us in 2018? I know one thing for sure. Unless our governments started being more truthful and fair to us, along with these giant companies, our planet would get wiped out if some extraterrestrial force ever decided to attack us. Seriously it's really stupid how our government keeps all these things under wrap. In order to prepare for something that big it would need to be a world wide movement where every country is working together to produce a world wide army.

Have you heard of the movie Iron Sky?

I don't think anyone wants to attack us because lets face it if they would have killed us they could have done it a long time ago. I don't think they feel that humanity is ready for the truth and the governments of the world simply wont say because if theres space ships traveling from distant galaxies they wouldn't do it on fossil fuel and they want to keep us dependent on that.

I think the alien races that have visited the earth isn't out to harm us, quite the opposite.

No I haven't heard of that movie but I'll check it out :)

[DayWalker]

its not a new goal...

shall i post the video of Regean directing NASA to hep build a bridge with the USSR???

cuz I can....

[King Sickness]

Indeed.



Zecharia Sitchin has written a lot of books on the Annunaki, he was the one who first translated the Sumerian tablets talks about this. And yeah the Annunaki theory says according to the Sumerian tablets these 'gods' descended from their planet (Planet X or Nibiru) to harvest gold on this planet to save their planets atmosphere. These 'gods' then created man to do the work for them in their own image; That's us. Then they left when they had enough gold and we will just have to see if they return.



I don't think anyone wants to attack us because lets face it if they would have killed us they could have done it a long time ago. I don't think they feel that humanity is ready for the truth and the governments of the world simply wont say because if theres space ships traveling from distant galaxies they wouldn't do it on fossil fuel and they want to keep us dependent on that.

I think the alien races that have visited the earth isn't out to harm us, quite the opposite.

No I haven't heard of that movie but I'll check it out :)
Again, imo the governments feeling that we "aren't ready" for the truth is just keeping us from reaching our fullest potential. On a day by day basis the normal human being NEVER thinks about anything beyond his/her family, friends, or work. Hardly anyone, especially in American society, thinks about things beyond their little space. If people aren't thinking about things then how could we possibly advance as a race? People today are so consumed by music, LeBron's decision, the latest dance moves etc. things that really don't matter in the big picture. Ever since I found out about the NASA secrets and about the Illuminati I can't stop thinking about "bigger" things beyond earth and the truth about religion. I honestly think something big is in store for us in 2012, it may not be catastrophic, but I have a feeling the governments/masons know what's going to happen. As of now I have zero faith in our government. Even if something big were to happen and they tried to tell us, I'd be reluctant to not believe it. To this day all they have done to us is lied, kept secrets, and tried to brainwash us through the media and stereotyping what we learned in history in grade school. It's such a joke and I'm really ashamed to live in this country.

Iron Sky is coming out in 2011, it's showing a lot of promise imo. It's about a theory that during WWII the Nazi's had developed crazy advanced way ahead of our time technologies that couldn't afford to be lost. So to prevent losing them they flew to the moon and created bases on the dark side to continue their developments and research. In 2018 they are coming back to wage a full blown war against us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeAfoiN5SDw

[Tutankhamun]

Again, imo the governments feeling that we "aren't ready" for the truth is just keeping us from reaching our fullest potential. On a day by day basis the normal human being NEVER thinks about anything beyond his/her family, friends, or work. Hardly anyone, especially in American society, thinks about things beyond their little space. If people aren't thinking about things then how could we possibly advance as a race? People today are so consumed by music, LeBron's decision, the latest dance moves etc. things that really don't matter in the big picture. Ever since I found out about the NASA secrets and about the Illuminati I can't stop thinking about "bigger" things beyond earth and the truth about religion. I honestly think something big is in store for us in 2012, it may not be catastrophic, but I have a feeling the governments/masons know what's going to happen. As of now I have zero faith in our government. Even if something big were to happen and they tried to tell us, I'd be reluctant to not believe it. To this day all they have done to us is lied, kept secrets, and tried to brainwash us through the media and stereotyping what we learned in history in grade school. It's such a joke and I'm really ashamed to live in this country.

They don't want us to reach our full potential, they want to keep us dumbed down so they can push their agenda of killing off the majority of people on this earth with the false premise that the earth is over populated which is complete BS. I won't stand in line for my microchip that's for sure.


Iron Sky is coming out in 2011, it's showing a lot of promise imo. It's about a theory that during WWII the Nazi's had developed crazy advanced way ahead of our time technologies that couldn't afford to be lost. So to prevent losing them they flew to the moon and created bases on the dark side to continue their developments and research. In 2018 they are coming back to wage a full blown war against us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeAfoiN5SDw

Sounds good! There is no doubt the nazis had more advanced tech then we can possibly imagine, what they did with that tech we just don't know that much about.

[weskurtz81]

its not a new goal...

shall i post the video of Regean directing NASA to hep build a bridge with the USSR???

cuz I can....

But, it wasn't "Christian Nations" or anything to do with religion, that's the point. The point is, why not just pick the nations that can offer the most, in the 80's the USSR was probably near the top of the list, and go at it?

[Firefox]

Defensive manner? Well I was light hearted and tried to just talk from a rational perspective taking out how I feel about it..and even put up the video of the entire video to show how you were interpreting the quote wrong but I guess I am too aggressive..

I still think you are deeply mis-interpreting the quote and if the full video interview doesn't convince you then nothing can change your mind and we agree to disagree.

[squirrelbo1]

can we stop derailing the thread with all the iluminati bull**** please

[weskurtz81]

Defensive manner? Well I was light hearted and tried to just talk from a rational perspective taking out how I feel about it..and even put up the video of the entire video to show how you were interpreting the quote wrong but I guess I am too aggressive..

I still think you are deeply mis-interpreting the quote and if the full video interview doesn't convince you then nothing can change your mind and we agree to disagree.

Sometimes the use of smiley's, like :roll: can make a statement come across a little differently.

I didn't watch the whole video, some of it, and maybe he was just using the word "Muslim" as a way to describe a specific region, and countries within that region. But, I still don't see why the word, in relation to religion, was used. He could have easily had said "Middle Eastern countries" and left links to religion out of it.

Had he said "Christian nations" do you think it would have been viewed in a negative light?

I did watch the video, not the entire thing, and it did change my perspective a bit, I will watch the rest later. You aren't too aggressive, just thought the way you responded was somewhat defensive, sorry if I misinterpreted that.

[King Sickness]

They don't want us to reach our full potential, they want to keep us dumbed down so they can push their agenda of killing off the majority of people on this earth with the false premise that the earth is over populated which is complete BS. I won't stand in line for my microchip that's for sure.



Sounds good! There is no doubt the nazis had more advanced tech then we can possibly imagine, what they did with that tech we just don't know that much about.
Not overpopulated in terms of space, but in terms of resources. They think there won't be enough food and other necessities if the population keeps growing exponentially. It's so inhumane and sickening to know it's like this.

I just hope one day as I grow in the Aerospace Industry I will get selected to go on the ISS so I won't have to deal with any of this haha.

[DayWalker]

But, it wasn't "Christian Nations" or anything to do with religion, that's the point. The point is, why not just pick the nations that can offer the most, in the 80's the USSR was probably near the top of the list, and go at it?

...I think its more of a "this is the enemy we are most focused on at the time" thing, not a religious thing.

[[DT]]

can we stop derailing the thread with all the iluminati bull**** please

No, no, no, it's hysterical!! :lol:

[Sufi]

i dont think Muhammad wants them to go to space. just sayin' but what a stupid goal of NASA
...This world is going to stay ignorant as long as people like you exist.

Seriously, what a stupid ignorant comment. What do you know about Islam and Muhammad? Nothing. Stop trolling.

yes, their historic contribution to math and science spawned suicide bombers and religious extremists hell-bent on making the Western World pay for their indecency of culture "death to America!" a famous line in the Muslim extremist community...


http://sieabah.net/random/randomimages/lol/facepalm_implied.jpg
math science medicine the idea of flying and alot more started from muslim scientists


haha, I knew I'd offend someone here, though I don't see it that way at all since I only referred to "EXTREMIST" religious Muslims (NOT, law abiding, faithful, PEACEFUL Muslim people), but since you were offended, you are one then? I have no doubt that what they invented isn't true, but if you're going to stick with science, then why continue to have faith, wouldn't relying on science be against "Jah"? And this question is really for any religion. Don't get your panties in a bunch, cupcake.
So you knew how stupid/trollsome your comment was. I see. Oh wait, let me guess, you're a non-Muslim so that must be why you're showing your inability to comprehend subjects and contexts and turning it into blind hate. See, I can act just like yourself. And for the record, cupcake, it seems like your panties were in the bunch before anyone even started anything. Your first comment definitely sounds like you have a big bag of panties bunched up there.

Actually, you didn't refer to "extremist" Muslims only. You generalized the entire Muslim community by this comment:
yes, their historic contribution to math and science spawned suicide bombers and religious extremists hell-bent on making the Western World pay for their indecency of culture "death to America!" a famous line in the Muslim extremist community...

You see where you said: "yes, their historic contribution to math and science spawned suicide bombers and religious extremists hell-bent on making the Western World pay for their indecency of culture"...now no matter what you said after this, you said that "their historic contribution" (which is talking about all Muslims), "spawned" suicide bombers and religious extremists...spawned as in what came out of that. Let's not even talk about the fact that the history of Muslims with Maths and Science has "nothing" to do with what extremists and suicide bombers and what we're talking about here, again, which is why you knew from the beginning that you'd offend someone.

If that's not generalization of the entire Muslim community, if you don't see how you worded that completely wrong and why it was offensive and stupid...then I believe you need to go back to high school.

[gillmanjr]

Its amazing how many people in this thread either: a.) have nothing to contribute that is relevant to the topic or b.) are just posting derogatory and ridiculously uninformed opinions about it. Some of you people appear to have a knowledge of the REAL world that is equivalent to that of an infant.

[engagequadlasr]

Its amazing how many people in this thread either: a.) have nothing to contribute that is relevant to the topic or b.) are just posting derogatory and ridiculously uninformed opinions about it. Some of you people appear to have a knowledge of the REAL world that is equivalent to that of an infant.

Relevant video after the jump:

http://www.indecisionforever.com/2010/07/08/jon-stewart-on-fox-newss-muslim-fear-mongering/

:whistles:

[weskurtz81]

Relevant video after the jump:

http://www.indecisionforever.com/2010/07/08/jon-stewart-on-fox-newss-muslim-fear-mongering/

:whistles:


HAHAHA!!!! That was a good one! My only real point in this thread was really referring to targeting countries based on religion.

And, "space place"? That guy looked like a clown!

And, on the mosque building that he issued.... meh, I don't care. However, I think building a mosque right at ground zero is not a good idea.

Funny video though.

[Sufi]

However, I think building a mosque right at ground zero is not a good idea.



Why not?

[weskurtz81]

Why not?

Because, I don't think that right now, when people in America and especially New York are still likely a little sensitive about the WTC being taken down, and being done by religious extremists, that building that same religions place of worship at that location will be looked upon in a generally positive manner.

Regardless of whether it's logical to make that connection or not, it is made, and I don't think it's sensitive to the residents of NY or American's in general to do that.

There are plenty of other places to build Mosque's in New York, I just don't think that location is a good choice.

[Sufi]

Because, I don't think that right now, when people in America and especially New York are still likely a little sensitive about the WTC being taken down, and being done by religious extremists, that building that same religions place of worship at that location will be looked upon in a generally positive manner.

Regardless of whether it's logical to make that connection or not, it is made, and I don't think it's sensitive to the residents of NY or American's in general to do that.

There are plenty of other places to build Mosque's in New York, I just don't think that location is a good choice.

Let's not go down the sensitivity part because I've seen much worse things done towards Muslims in America since 9/11 that are much more insensitive to them, not only as a community but their religion as well, by the same Americans and NY residents on the basis of freedom of speech and the fact that this is a free country. Which is ignorant in itself.

Basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

For people that are insensitive, the best thing for them to do is gain knowledge and understand the world better. It seems like Americans get offended easily but, at the same time, don't care about values of others. What about when it comes to insensitivities towards Muslims...and on purpose too I might add. This is not intended to offend anyone off but America had a "Draw Mohammad" day and that was supposedly freedom of speech but this, Oh noooooo, this is sooo insensitive towards the same people because they apparently have feelings when it comes to them.

[Hitman_T92]

when people in America and especially New York are still likely a little sensitive about the WTC being taken down, and being done by religious extremists
OMG get the **** over it !!
america is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of people in iraq palestine and afghanistan
and BTW israel is did 9/11 i assure u

[weskurtz81]

Let's not go down the sensitivity part because I've seen much worse things done towards Muslims in America since 9/11 that are much more insensitive to them, not only as a community but their religion as well, by the same Americans and NY residents on the basis of freedom of speech and the fact that this is a free country. Which is ignorant in itself.

Basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

For people that are insensitive, the best thing for them to do is gain knowledge and understand the world better. It seems like Americans get offended easily but, at the same time, don't care about values of others. What about when it comes to insensitivities towards Muslims...and on purpose too I might add. This is not intended to offend anyone off but America had a "Draw Mohammad" day and that was supposedly freedom of speech but this, Oh noooooo, this is sooo insensitive towards the same people because they apparently have feelings when it comes to them.

To each their own I guess.

My point is, you and I both know building a Mosque there will create tension, and will likely create problems. Like I said, there are PLENTY of locations to build a Mosque in New York, but they are choosing to build it there.

If they want to deal with pissed off people, likely vandalism, and any other thing that might happen because people are ticked off about it, then so be it.

My point is, there are plenty of places to build a Mosque in NYC, and building at that specific location will likely cause some problems, and we all know it. So, then what's the point? Why build it there if you know it's going to **** people off? I don't know, do you?

You and I both know, it's not a good place to put it, and there will be backlash because of it, and if that's what they are going for, then that's a good place to build it I guess.


OMG get the **** over it !!
america is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of people in iraq palestine and afghanistan
and BTW israel is did 9/11 i assure u


If you cannot respond with at least SOME level of maturity, it would probably be best to not respond at all.

[Sufi]

To each their own I guess.

My point is, you and I both know building a Mosque there will create tension, and will likely create problems. Like I said, there are PLENTY of locations to build a Mosque in New York, but they are choosing to build it there.

If they want to deal with pissed off people, likely vandalism, and any other thing that might happen because people are ticked off about it, then so be it.

My point is, there are plenty of places to build a Mosque in NYC, and building at that specific location will likely cause some problems, and we all know it. So, then what's the point? Why build it there if you know it's going to **** people off? I don't know, do you?

You and I both know, it's not a good place to put it, and there will be backlash because of it, and if that's what they are going for, then that's a good place to build it I guess.

I agree with you that it can cause issues and it probably will. Thing is, it should only **** off people that are ignorant and intolerant of others.

Now, I'm not saying you should be intolerant to someone who just killed your family but these are not the people that killed your family...and if a person doesn't get this then they need help.

Muslims are very devout when it comes to their faith...there is a mosque about 1.5 miles from where I live and everyone that lives around there is a Muslim. They buy their houses and get apartments depending on how far it is from the mosque. Some smart non-Muslims around the area have gotten the wind and they are now charging $200 more than they previously did on their apartments...and they were kept pretty bad as far as their condition. And still, people pay that amount and get ripped off as long as they live close to the mosque.

I'm positive people want a mosque around there because they want to be able to walk to it and get there on time. They pray 5 times a day in there (even if not all of them), I'm positive they'd rather like something in the walking distance so they're not just going to the mosque and back the whole day.

Again, like I said, if people knew more about the faith, they would think twice.

They can make it anywhere else but if they want to create it there, I don't see the issue. I don't see any agenda there. I don't see them trying to prove a point. I don't see them trying to get attention.

Yes, there may be issues but if you're afraid to practice your religion in America then what's the point of constitution anymore?

If something happens, it will just prove prejudice on the part of NY residents. Not that it needs proof (it's pretty easy to see people don't care about constitution when it comes to Muslims as seen in the actual video, not jon's version, about this incident) and I hope nothing happens but after living in America for more than 13 years, I know Americans tend to only like their own kind at times so I'm not holding my breath here.

[Hitman_T92]

if you cannot respond with at least some level of maturity, it would probably be best to not respond at all.
wtf ?!

[weskurtz81]

I agree with you that it can cause issues and it probably will. Thing is, it should only **** off people that are ignorant and intolerant of others.

I agree to a certain extent, but it's human nature by in large, not saying I agree with it, but it's not just ignorant Yankee's doing it, it's human's in general that would react the same way in a similar situation. Not saying I agree or don't agree with that behavior, just saying that's the way it is.


Now, I'm not saying you should be intolerant to someone who just killed your family but these are not the people that killed your family...and if a person doesn't get this then they need help.

Well, I wouldn't say they need help, but as I said above, that it's human nature. People want to blame SOMEONE for what happened, and sometimes people will project that anger towards someone that doesn't deserve it, and it doesn't only happen in this type of situation, it happens in every day life. It doesn't mean that they need help, maybe a little irrational, but it's human's being human.


Muslims are very devout when it comes to their faith...there is a mosque about 1.5 miles from where I live and everyone that lives around there is a Muslim. They buy their houses and get apartments depending on how far it is from the mosque. Some smart non-Muslims around the area have gotten the wind and they are now charging $200 more than they previously did on their apartments...and they were kept pretty bad as far as their condition. And still, people pay that amount and get ripped off as long as they live close to the mosque.

I am very aware of how devout Muslims are, I have spent a little time in the Middle East, and saw that town are pretty much designed around being close to Mosque's and grocery stores.


I'm positive people want a mosque around there because they want to be able to walk to it and get there on time. They pray 5 times a day in there (even if not all of them), I'm positive they'd rather like something in the walking distance so they're not just going to the mosque and back the whole day.

Well, that's assuming they are working near where the live etc. It's a good explanation, but you don't have to be in a Mosque to perform Salah do you? When I was in the Mid East, I saw people pull off the highway for prayer. I understand, it would preferable to pray in a Mosque, but it's not required as I understand it.


Again, like I said, if people knew more about the faith, they would think twice.

I don't disagree, but, people don't. Just like many if not most Muslims might not know a whole lot about Christianity.


They can make it anywhere else but if they want to create it there, I don't see the issue. I don't see any agenda there. I don't see them trying to prove a point. I don't see them trying to get attention.

Sure, they can build the Mosque wherever they want to, it's a free country. Just buy the land, get the permits, get to building.

However, they already know that people are pushing back on this, they likely knew there would be some push back when they came up with the idea, but they still plan on putting it in that location. To me, it seems like neither side is being real tolerant or thoughtful of the other, but that's just my opinion.


Yes, there may be issues but if you're afraid to practice your religion in America then what's the point of constitution anymore?

How is this violating the Constitution?


If something happens, it will just prove prejudice on the part of NY residents. Not that it needs proof (it's pretty easy to see people don't care about constitution when it comes to Muslims as seen in the actual video, not jon's version, about this incident) and I hope nothing happens but after living in America for more than 13 years, I know Americans tend to only like their own kind at times so I'm not holding my breath here.

It's seems like you are being awfully ethnocentric here. It's not just American's or America that has problems like this, and it's not EVERY American that exhibits this type of behavior. Churches have been known to be burned down in Muslim countries, not that it condones what someone might do here, but it happens.

I can go to the Middle East and see a similar type of behavior exhibited towards me because I am white/America/Christian.... etc. Does that mean Middle Easterners aren't tolerant? Does that mean that they are racist or anti-christian? I don't know? Honestly, I just think it's human nature to be honest. Me personally, I have NO issues with just about anyone from anywhere. I have friends of all colors, religions, nationalities, so does that mean all American's are like me? No.

So, the point is, with the above paragraph is, prejudice isn't inherent with only one country or another, it's inherent in humans. It might be a little more or a little less from country to country, but it's still there.

But, when it comes to the Constitution, just like the Constitution allows freedom of religion, it also protects free speech, and people have the right to voice their opinion on that matter if they so choose. They are not being prevented from building it there, no low is preventing it, but people can protest it all they want, they have the right to.

[Sufi]

I agree to a certain extent, but it's human nature by in large, not saying I agree with it, but it's not just ignorant Yankee's doing it, it's human's in general that would react the same way in a similar situation. Not saying I agree or don't agree with that behavior, just saying that's the way it is.

Well, I wouldn't say they need help, but as I said above, that it's human nature. People want to blame SOMEONE for what happened, and sometimes people will project that anger towards someone that doesn't deserve it, and it doesn't only happen in this type of situation, it happens in every day life. It doesn't mean that they need help, maybe a little irrational, but it's human's being human.

If that was true then you'd see a lot of hate crimes being done to Americans by Muslims living here.


Well, that's assuming they are working near where the live etc. Why does that matter?


It's a good explanation, but you don't have to be in a Mosque to perform Salah do you? When I was in the Mid East, I saw people pull off the highway for prayer. I understand, it would preferable to pray in a Mosque, but it's not required as I understand it.
It's not required but people prefer it. It's a community thing. They could pray at home if they wanted to but it's what they like to do. Are synagogues/churches required?


I don't disagree, but, people don't. Just like many if not most Muslims might not know a whole lot about Christianity.
And they wouldn't need to know unless they were misunderstood about them. I don't see much Christianity bashing by Muslims. In fact, they can't do it, Jesus is regarded as a Prophet in Islam.


Sure, they can build the Mosque wherever they want to, it's a free country. Just buy the land, get the permits, get to building.

However, they already know that people are pushing back on this, they likely knew there would be some push back when they came up with the idea, but they still plan on putting it in that location. To me, it seems like neither side is being real tolerant or thoughtful of the other, but that's just my opinion.

I understand that people would get angry due to this idea but this place is not supposed to have an agenda, it's not going to host a [insert insensitive stuff about NY] day there. It's not meant to be insensitive. It's two blocks away from ground zero, Muslims died in that tower as well. The way Americans are insensitive to Muslims is probably going to go in the history books, I don't think the law abiding Muslims in America have done/said anything that would be considered unconstitutional, much less insensitive.


How is this violating the Constitution?
I worded this wrong. I meant to say if people are fearful of practicing their own religion in America then what's the point of this country being free? Wasn't this the whole point of making America? Did you forget why people fled from Europe to come here?


It's seems like you are being awfully ethnocentric here. It's not just American's or America that has problems like this, and it's not EVERY American that exhibits this type of behavior. Churches have been known to be burned down in Muslim countries, not that it condones what someone might do here, but it happens.

I can go to the Middle East and see a similar type of behavior exhibited towards me because I am white/America/Christian.... etc. Does that mean Middle Easterners aren't tolerant? Does that mean that they are racist or anti-christian? I don't know? Honestly, I just think it's human nature to be honest. Me personally, I have NO issues with just about anyone from anywhere. I have friends of all colors, religions, nationalities, so does that mean all American's are like me? No.

So, the point is, with the above paragraph is, prejudice isn't inherent with only one country or another, it's inherent in humans. It might be a little more or a little less from country to country, but it's still there.

But, when it comes to the Constitution, just like the Constitution allows freedom of religion, it also protects free speech, and people have the right to voice their opinion on that matter if they so choose. They are not being prevented from building it there, no low is preventing it, but people can protest it all they want, they have the right to.

I'm not saying everyone in America is, I'm saying if something happens, that proves that prejudice prevails in NY residents and it has happened before. I know it's in humans as nature but it's also true that some people have a little more or a little less. So far, Muslims in US, as far as we know, are much less. If anything ever happens, it's someone from outside the US.

Last but not least, I have no issue with people voicing their opinions, however, I don't see Muslims going around threatening people and voicing their opinions in an insensitive/immoral way for what's happening/happened in Afghanistan or Iraq.

I would also have an issue with these opinions if it ends up in another hate crime. Which you and I both know, could happen...I'm hoping it doesn't, I don't want it to happen to prove a point, I just fear that it may.

But living in fear, especially on the basis of religion, is something Muslims can never do. So, whatever's going to go down, it's going to happen. Whether it's a bad idea to do it, it doesn't matter, if the intent was to offend others then I can see justification of the actions brought after this but if there is not intent of doing that, I don't see why anyone should stop doing something they hold dearly to themselves.

I don't think a person should live in fear and stop living their lives the way they want to, especially when the accusations are unjustified.

I honestly don't see why non-Muslims can't possibly live in peace with Muslims over here. Whatever happened to objectiveness in this world.

[weskurtz81]

If that was true then you'd see a lot of hate crimes being done to Americans by Muslims living here.

There's not a lot of hate crimes being perpetrated to begin with from what I can tell. Plus, Muslims are in the minority, so it probably isn't wise to go around committing a bunch of hate crimes in a foreign country against people that outnumber you. Regardless, I don't see very many happening anyway.


Why does that matter?

Assuming they work, if the Mosque is close to home, but work isn't, then most of the time they wouldn't be close to it anyway.



It's not required but people prefer it. It's a community thing. They could pray at home if they wanted to but it's what they like to do. Are synagogues/churches required?

Sure, once or twice a week, but not every day to pray. I would be willing to bet most Muslims aren't in a Mosque during every prayer session, it's not required and it's just really not feasible.



And they wouldn't need to know unless they were misunderstood about them. I don't see much Christianity bashing by Muslims. In fact, they can't do it, Jesus is regarded as a Prophet in Islam.

There's more ways than religion to 'bash' people you don't understand or agree with. (would rather not really turn this into a religious debate to be honest, that wasn't even my original point).


I understand that people would get angry due to this idea but this place is not supposed to have an agenda, it's not going to host a [insert insensitive stuff about NY] day there. It's not meant to be insensitive. It's two blocks away from ground zero, Muslims died in that tower as well. The way Americans are insensitive to Muslims is probably going to go in the history books, I don't think the law abiding Muslims in America have done/said anything that would be considered unconstitutional, much less insensitive.

600 feet seems like less than two blocks, but that's not really the point. I never said ANYONE was doing anything unconstitutional. And, you really don't think Muslims are insensitive at all in America? Seriously, this isn't a one way street, it's not "America does everything wrong and has wronged Muslims over and over, and Muslims haven't done anything wrong".

Let's be a little more realistic here, neither group is innocent, and even Muslims in America can be a little insensitive. You cannot tell me that you speak for the entire group of Muslims in this country.



I worded this wrong. I meant to say if people are fearful of practicing their own religion in America then what's the point of this country being free? Wasn't this the whole point of making America? Did you forget why people fled from Europe to come here?

If they were fearful of practicing the religion, they wouldn't be building Mosque's and practicing their religion here.



I'm not saying everyone in America is, I'm saying if something happens, that proves that prejudice prevails in NY residents and it has happened before. I know it's in humans as nature but it's also true that some people have a little more or a little less. So far, Muslims in US, as far as we know, are much less. If anything ever happens, it's someone from outside the US.

So, if someONE in NYC were to do something to that Mosque, if it were built, you would say that prejudice prevails in NYC? Seriously? That's not rational to label an entire group of people based of the actions of one person, you should know that.


Last but not least, I have no issue with people voicing their opinions, however, I don't see Muslims going around threatening people and voicing their opinions in an insensitive/immoral way for what's happening/happened in Afghanistan or Iraq.

I am pretty sure the Nation of Islam is a hate group, and the Muslims aren't special, everyone has a hate group here, it's part of having freedom. White have a black hate group, blacks have a white hate group, there's hate groups all over the US.


I would also have an issue with these opinions if it ends up in another hate crime. Which you and I both know, could happen...I'm hoping it doesn't, I don't want it to happen to prove a point, I just fear that it may.

Sure, I fear that it may, but hope it doesn't.


But living in fear, especially on the basis of religion, is something Muslims can never do. So, whatever's going to go down, it's going to happen. Whether it's a bad idea to do it, it doesn't matter, if the intent was to offend others then I can see justification of the actions brought after this but if there is not intent of doing that, I don't see why anyone should stop doing something they hold dearly to themselves.

I don't think a person should live in fear and stop living their lives the way they want to, especially when the accusations are unjustified.

I agree with what you say, I just thought that maybe moving it a couple blocks further away might kill two birds with one stone (assuming space is available). A couple blocks is not much of a walk.

Overall though, I agree with most of what you are saying, and I guess maybe people should lighten up a bit, and maybe try to understand a little more about who is planning it and why. However, I didn't lose a family member in the WTC attacks, so I can't really put myself in their shoes and see how they feel.

I did have some reservations about the mosque being so close to that location, but after reading a little more, our conversation etc.... I agree that people should lighten up a bit, and it seems like they are planning the Mosque to foster good will. Good talk.


I honestly don't see why non-Muslims can't possibly live in peace with Muslims over here. Whatever happened to objectiveness in this world.

I think they can, and in most cases they do. I think there has just been a minor road bump and it will straighten itself out.

[360DiedOnMe]

Buzz off man. You know nothing but what the MEDIA shows you. This was for DreDayDetox BTW, missed the quote button. Nice of you to generalize a whole religion and then come back with "I said extremist Muslims." You know damn well that you were talking about the whole mass. What if someone said, "Oh, it's because of all of these extremist Jews, Christians, or Catholics."

[Firefox]

Did you just say the Nation of Islam and Muslims are the same? :lol: They are two seperate religions..its not a "hate group" that is a sect of Islam. It's not even a sect of Islam.

For example: Malcolm X was a former NOI member then he became "Muslim" and a follower of Islam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xXB48l-OlE

[Sufi]

There's not a lot of hate crimes being perpetrated to begin with from what I can tell.
Of course, not anymore but after 9/11, there were a lot.


Plus, Muslims are in the minority, so it probably isn't wise to go around committing a bunch of hate crimes in a foreign country against people that outnumber you. Regardless, I don't see very many happening anyway.
So you're saying that the reason why Muslims don't commit hate crimes towards Americans is because they're in the minority? It seems like that's what you're saying.


Assuming they work, if the Mosque is close to home, but work isn't, then most of the time they wouldn't be close to it anyway.
Majority of the people don't need to be at the mosque all the time, however, there is still a good number of people (about 100) that come to the mosque everyday, several times a day, if not 5. There are a lot of devout Muslims that are there almost 5 times a day because it's easy for them to walk there within minutes. They bought their houses right behind the mosque.


Sure, once or twice a week, but not every day to pray.
Are you talking about Christians/Jews here?


I would be willing to bet most Muslims aren't in a Mosque during every prayer sessionThey're not but a lot of them are there at least once a day. My wife's uncle lives there and he goes there about 3 times a day. I don't think it matters if they're there 5 times a day, they're there for a good amount of time throughout a day that it needs to be close enough to walk to.

I can see this especially being a problem in NY where you can't just drive around in your own car even if you wanted to. Traffic issues, parking issues, subway can delay things, 5 minutes drive can mean 20 minutes to get there without a car.


it's not required and it's just really not feasible.
With all due respect but you don't have the right to say anything about what they do. Regardless of it being required or not, it's their right, it's what they want to do. You can't decide what's good or bad for them.


There's more ways than religion to 'bash' people you don't understand or agree with. (would rather not really turn this into a religious debate to be honest, that wasn't even my original point).
Like what? I'm assuming that you're implying Muslims bashing Americans in other ways than religion? Do tell.


600 feet seems like less than two blocks, but that's not really the point. I never said ANYONE was doing anything unconstitutional. And, you really don't think Muslims are insensitive at all in America? Seriously, this isn't a one way street, it's not "America does everything wrong and has wronged Muslims over and over, and Muslims haven't done anything wrong".

You can give me some examples. Go ahead. I would definitely like to learn more if there's an opportunity.


Let's be a little more realistic here, neither group is innocent, and even Muslims in America can be a little insensitive. You cannot tell me that you speak for the entire group of Muslims in this country.
Examples.


If they were fearful of practicing the religion, they wouldn't be building Mosque's and practicing their religion here.
That's not what I said. I was talking about your solution and to paraphrase that, "Muslims should just not build a mosque there because it's dangerous for them." Implying that they should be fearful of retaliation and give up their rights to build it anywhere they'd like to.


So, if someONE in NYC were to do something to that Mosque, if it were built, you would say that prejudice prevails in NYC? Seriously? That's not rational to label an entire group of people based of the actions of one person, you should know that.
One person did not threaten them. They received several death threats according to the news.

But you're right, it's not right to blame everyone else, I was getting emotional.


I am pretty sure the Nation of Islam is a hate group, and the Muslims aren't special, everyone has a hate group here, it's part of having freedom. White have a black hate group, blacks have a white hate group, there's hate groups all over the US.

Nation of Islam is not actually Islam but I don't expect you to know because I did not know what it was about until a few years ago.

Nation is Islam is a man-made religion, it takes a few things from Islam because it's believed that most Africans that were brought as slaves in US were Muslims so they thought that they were Muslims at heart.

However, they completely ignored everything else. If you read about Nation of Islam, you will realize that it's not even remotely close to Islam.

Islam does not discriminate when it comes to color, Nation of Islam states that whites were a horrible experiment by scientists that went wrong. Blacks are the only true race.

Islam is a monotheistic religion. Nation of Islam is based on the creator of this religion possessing godly powers. He was supposed to be divine and then he disappeared or whatever.

Malcolm X was associated with Nation of Islam when he got out of jail but what they didn't show at the end of the movie (if you have seen it), or didn't show enough of, was the fact that he went to Africa and studied actual Islam and converted over to the true Islam when he was there or when he came back.

I guess Nation of Islam was made due to oppression or whatever but it had really nothing to do anything with Islam other than the fact that it has the name "Islam" in it. No mention of Prophets, no mention of anything intelligent as far as I know.

There are maybe 100,000 people left (what I read back in 2006 in an Islam class) from Nation of Islam. More and more people convert to Islam from Nation of Islam once they realize how much NOI doesn't make sense (I'm using abbr. because I'm tired of writing that) and how much Islam does.

There are no Muslim hate groups in US as far as I know.

and no, I do not believe that's part of freedom...or should be... I donno why these organizations are allowed to prosper. They are about hate. KKK or the Black Panthers whatever.

I really don't understand why they're allowed when they're not different than Neo-Nazis.


I agree with what you say, I just thought that maybe moving it a couple blocks further away might kill two birds with one stone (assuming space is available). A couple blocks is not much of a walk.
Let's say that for some reason they decide to do that. Do we know if they have an option to keep it a couple of blocks away?


Overall though, I agree with most of what you are saying, and I guess maybe people should lighten up a bit, and maybe try to understand a little more about who is planning it and why. However, I didn't lose a family member in the WTC attacks, so I can't really put myself in their shoes and see how they feel.
The video clip I saw had people from both sides that lost family in WTC attacks.

There are people in US and around the world that have lost someone due to war or hate or whatever, of course I can't feel their pain but what I can do is look at things objectively.

If there is a radical group that wanted to open something there, that's completely different. There was a Muslim group on CNN that threatened the guy who came up with "Draw Mohammad" day (or something else, I don't remember EDIT: It was Trey Parker and Matt. Honestly, I know they go to extremes but I've never been offended by them...even when they showed Prophet Mohammad in an episode. I love South Park in fact.) and they mentioned that he can end up like the Dutch film-maker Theo van Gogh (who was killed by Muslims because he created the Mohammad cartoon with a bomb on his head in the newspaper).

Now, someone like this guy is someone I'd have a lot of rage for. 1) Because he doesn't represent anything about Islam. 2) He was on CNN and so I think there's money involved. (lots of fake ridiculously radical Muslims/ex-terrorists popped up on CNN probably by CNN for ratings and talked about their life and how they're in great threat just being on the show).

3) If I ever met up with these people, I know they wouldn't be able to answer all the questions I have for them. Nothing they said on TV was justified.

Here is their website: http://www.revolutionmuslim.com/

And their video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSUysSXj1oA

If you go on there for a while and see what they're about, you'll clearly see an agenda behind it. These people do not represent Islam. You go to any other Islam website and you will see that it's not ridiculous like this one...I mean, the first few hot links are about Al-Qaeda and Taliban, Jihad. That's not what Islamic websites are always talking about, there's an obvious mission there for this website...either to get attention/hits or posers. I don't support it, neither should any true Muslim. I think they're fake. Look at the name: RevolutionMuslim. That doesn't make sense, revolution does not exist in Islam. It's never changed since its birth. There's no reform, no revolt, no evolution. It's just what it is. Untouched. Muslim preachers recite the Quran and remember it word to word so if it ever was changed, everyone would recognize it. That's why it's never changed.

Back to CNN: Seriously, ex-terrorist? get some mother****ing information out of this guy instead of his life story?

I've seen plenty of websites where people act like they were ex-Muslims and know about Islam and they don't and they come off as pretty fake, the only thing I can think of is website hits/spreading hate etc.

If you go to this group's website, you can clearly see that they "hate" Americans and still want to live in America...I don't get why.

They claim that it's their right to kill Jews/Christians because Quran said so. Which is the old trick used by Islam-o-phobes back in the early 2000s. This is not true, it was a verse taken out of context back during war times between Christians/Jews and Muslims.

Islam prohibits pre-emptive strike. Jihad primarily means emotional struggle, not war. It can mean war but in the context that you're defending yourself...which again can mean a struggle.

If you're going to invade a country, that's not necessarily a struggle because you're the aggressor. If you defend, then it's Jihad.

That's the end of my lecture.


Did you just say the Nation of Islam and Muslims are the same? :lol: They are two seperate religions..its not a "hate group" that is a sect of Islam. It's not even a sect of Islam.

Definitely not a sect of Islam either.

[weskurtz81]

Did you just say the Nation of Islam and Muslims are the same? :lol: They are two seperate religions..its not a "hate group" that is a sect of Islam. It's not even a sect of Islam.

For example: Malcolm X was a former NOI member then he became "Muslim" and a follower of Islam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xXB48l-OlE

I didn't have time to do thorough research, was just looking for Muslim groups that might be intolerant. And, since Muslims practice Islam, and that said "Islam" in the name, I am sure you can make the connection.

Anyway, it happens, didn't do the reading I should have before posting it.


Of course, not anymore but after 9/11, there were a lot.

Yeah, but how many? Even if there were 5000 hate crime committed, that's a very small number of American's that committed those crimes. Not saying it's acceptable, rather that it's not a widely held position by American's. There might have been some level of apprehension with more American's, but actually committing crimes? A very small number of people that ALREADY have problems are the type of people that do that.


So you're saying that the reason why Muslims don't commit hate crimes towards Americans is because they're in the minority? It seems like that's what you're saying.

I think it's a logical argument, but that might have nothing to do with it. Maybe I am getting the radical types that you see overseas who taint the image of Islam mixed up with regular Muslims who just want to work and have a normal life like everyone else.


Majority of the people don't need to be at the mosque all the time, however, there is still a good number of people (about 100) that come to the mosque everyday, several times a day, if not 5. There are a lot of devout Muslims that are there almost 5 times a day because it's easy for them to walk there within minutes. They bought their houses right behind the mosque.



Are you talking about Christians/Jews here?

Mainly Christian's yes. Most that I know might attend a Church for prayer twice a week, most only once.


They're not but a lot of them are there at least once a day. My wife's uncle lives there and he goes there about 3 times a day. I don't think it matters if they're there 5 times a day, they're there for a good amount of time throughout a day that it needs to be close enough to walk to.

I can see this especially being a problem in NY where you can't just drive around in your own car even if you wanted to. Traffic issues, parking issues, subway can delay things, 5 minutes drive can mean 20 minutes to get there without a car.

Fair enough, learn something new every day.


With all due respect but you don't have the right to say anything about what they do. Regardless of it being required or not, it's their right, it's what they want to do. You can't decide what's good or bad for them.

Point taken, and I am not trying to imply the don't NEED pray in a Mosque, simply stating the fact that it's not required, and that Muslims regularly pray outside of a Mosque. I wasn't trying to insinuate that since it's not a requirement they shouldn't build there, not at all.


Like what? I'm assuming that you're implying Muslims bashing Americans in other ways than religion? Do tell.

I am talking about mostly over seas though, where it does happen regularly.




You can give me some examples. Go ahead. I would definitely like to learn more if there's an opportunity.

Examples.

Well, according to you they are not true Muslims, and that's what you would say of my examples, because they are people like the video you posted below.



That's not what I said. I was talking about your solution and to paraphrase that, "Muslims should just not build a mosque there because it's dangerous for them." Implying that they should be fearful of retaliation and give up their rights to build it anywhere they'd like to.

Oh, I see, fair enough. I didn't mean they should move it out of fear though, just thought maybe it would foster good will.



One person did not threaten them. They received several death threats according to the news.

But you're right, it's not right to blame everyone else, I was getting emotional.

Fair enough. My only real point with that is, even if was a few, that's no where close to the majority, which you obviously understand.


There are no Muslim hate groups in US as far as I know.

and no, I do not believe that's part of freedom...or should be... I donno why these organizations are allowed to prosper. They are about hate. KKK or the Black Panthers whatever.

I really don't understand why they're allowed when they're not different than Neo-Nazis.

Well, really, it's part of the freedom's we have here. They can hate all they want as long as they don't break any laws that protect people. There are prices we pay for having freedom, and dealing with idiots is one of those prices. Freedom of speech man, just as long as no one gets hurt.


Let's say that for some reason they decide to do that. Do we know if they have an option to keep it a couple of blocks away?

I have no idea.


There are people in US and around the world that have lost someone due to war or hate or whatever, of course I can't feel their pain but what I can do is look at things objectively.


I agree here, good to look at things objectively.


I had to rush through this reply, I am at work. But, thank you for a very thorough and well thought out reply. I learned a lot, thanks.

I think what happens is people tend to confuse the radical's that commit what we consider to be 'crimes' overseas with standard Muslims, because they do it in the name of Islam. You know, they types of people that burn down Churches and attack Christians. I was off base suggesting that it is common over here, maybe it's very uncommon, but like that guy you posted in that video, that type of stuff happens (and a little hate towards gay people).

Anyway, I concede most of your points, and I have actually argued about Islam being a peaceful religion to people before, just tend to get a little caught up some times and need a refresher course!

[Sufi]

I think it's a logical argument, but that might have nothing to do with it. Maybe I am getting the radical types that you see overseas who taint the image of Islam mixed up with regular Muslims who just want to work and have a normal life like everyone else.
If this was true then there would be a huge problem in nations with Muslim majority. So far, I don't know any nation that have done this with the minority Christians for these reasons...of course, Muslims and Christians have issues of their own in almost every country but speaking from a context, I don't see anything.

I'm originally from Pakistan, never heard a story about Muslims threatening Christian minority in Pakistan since the incidents. Not to mention, Pakistan's been in the middle of everything.


I am talking about mostly over seas though, where it does happen regularly.

You also have to think about some other things here. If someone out there burns an American flag, they have a problem with Americans, not Christians. Muslims aren't the only ones that have burned American flags. I've seen plenty of other countries doing it where US is involved.

When someone bashes Islam, firstly they're not bashing just one country, they're bashing a community that consists of more than a billion people all over the world (I believe it's somewhere around 1.6bn). What's more important is that they're bashing someone's values, or figures that they hold dear to their heart. Religion goes beyond nationalism. I couldn't care less if someone burned the Pakistani flag, I wouldn't give a rat's ***. But if someone bashes the Prophet (PBUH) or God or Islam in an unjustified way, that pisses me off immensely.

Burning flags are politics. Everyone outside the US is against its foreign policies so that'd be opening up a whole new subject. I'd have a problem if someone killed an American but as far as burning flags, I don't know care or know why people would care about something like that. I personally do not belong to a nation.


Well, according to you they are not true Muslims, and that's what you would say of my examples, because they are people like the video you posted below.
That's not true. I would like some examples and we'll see where we go from there. I'm not saying that Muslims are perfect and that every imperfect Muslims is not a true Muslim and should not be accounted for. I'm saying that this guy is probably a poser because no one living in US, as far as I know, goes this far jumping on the line like that.

If you look into this issue carefully, you'll see how beautifully they've threatened them without getting in legal issues...it's perfectly choreographed. There's no other example like them as far as I recall, unless you can bring up something.

Overseas, there are some radical officials that may say some extreme stuff from time to time but that's all politics. We hear the same things from every government. But we're talking about individuals here.


Oh, I see, fair enough. I didn't mean they should move it out of fear though, just thought maybe it would foster good will.
I agree with that. I think that if they had a choice to build it a little further away, I would vote for it. Seeing it's NY, it's the matter of if they have a choice. No one has mentioned anything about that yet.


Well, really, it's part of the freedom's we have here. They can hate all they want as long as they don't break any laws that protect people. There are prices we pay for having freedom, and dealing with idiots is one of those prices. Freedom of speech man, just as long as no one gets hurt.
It's interesting because slander is not protected but hate is.


I had to rush through this reply, I am at work. But, thank you for a very thorough and well thought out reply. I learned a lot, thanks.

I think what happens is people tend to confuse the radical's that commit what we consider to be 'crimes' overseas with standard Muslims, because they do it in the name of Islam. You know, they types of people that burn down Churches and attack Christians. I was off base suggesting that it is common over here, maybe it's very uncommon, but like that guy you posted in that video, that type of stuff happens (and a little hate towards gay people).
Lots of crap happens overseas. I will guarantee you that it's not just one sided either. It's due to politics, laws etc.

What I feel is that we, in US, should not have these issues. If the laws are in place, there shouldn't be any unfairness.


Anyway, I concede most of your points, and I have actually argued about Islam being a peaceful religion to people before, just tend to get a little caught up some times and need a refresher course!

It's completely understandable, I blame the media, some of the stuff they come up with is beyond ridiculous.