Sidney Crosby

[jakncoke]

I dont even really pay attention to hockey but this kid is great , Earlier in the season he became the youngest to reach 200 pts and now he's the youngest to win a scoring title. I wonder if the Pens will have money to keep all there young talent in Fleury , Staal , Malkin ,Crosby for a long time to come.

[netbevit]

Only reason Crosby has those records is because The Great One started off in the WHA opposed to the NHL for his rookie season. Crosby is special and great, but he's no Gretzky. Opinion only.

[jakncoke]

I agree he will never live up to what Gretzky did but damn he sure is trying and he helping the NHL alot after its disaster , NHL still may be one of the worst watched sports in America but Crosby is at least turning some heads with the great stuff he's doing.

[snooper71]

One thing you can give Crosby is that he meets expectations. Nothing like Alexandre Daigle or Eric Lindros

[netbevit]

One thing you can give Crosby is that he meets expectations. Nothing like Alexandre Daigle or Eric Lindros


I think you can make an argument for Lindros. The guy did/does have serious injury issues but outside of that he was definitely meeting expectations. The guy is only 125 goals from 500. Considering all the games he missed due to injury, he would have undoubtedly have reached 500 goals before the end of his career or have came seriously close to hitting that mark.

[Cyrann]

He plays for the PENS and the PENS are amazing. Malkin and Crosby is an amazing pair! The future is great for the PENS!

[soldier one]

Im not a fan of those guys that are extremely good, he is a great player ill give him that, but im not a fan. I was a fan of gretzky but im not fan of him being called the greatest to ever play the game etc..

Im a big keith tkachuk fan, reason being he plays for the heart of the game along with shane doan etc... They are not the most amazing players in the league but they are dedicated and i love watching them play. You dont have to be the most amazing player in history to get noticed.

Crosby is good but i think the rest of the team is what makes him good, i mean you have staal and all them out there making is so that other teams cant guard them all, so you either double up on one guy and leave another open or you risk guarding them one on one. I think Crosby just plain knows how to exploit this and is, if he was put on a team that didnt have all great players around him then im sure teams would find ways to shut him down.

He is a amazing player, maybe fight for the next wayne gretzky, but he is just another good player in my eyes.

[netbevit]

Im not a fan of those guys that are extremely good, he is a great player ill give him that, but im not a fan. I was a fan of gretzky but im not fan of him being called the greatest to ever play the game etc..

Im a big keith tkachuk fan, reason being he plays for the heart of the game along with shane doan etc... They are not the most amazing players in the league but they are dedicated and i love watching them play. You dont have to be the most amazing player in history to get noticed.

Crosby is good but i think the rest of the team is what makes him good, i mean you have staal and all them out there making is so that other teams cant guard them all, so you either double up on one guy and leave another open or you risk guarding them one on one. I think Crosby just plain knows how to exploit this and is, if he was put on a team that didnt have all great players around him then im sure teams would find ways to shut him down.

He is a amazing player, maybe fight for the next wayne gretzky, but he is just another good player in my eyes.

How can you be against Wayne Gretzky being considered the greatest of all time? Who else could you even make an argument for? The guy has more ASSISTS than the 2nd most points total player in history. He's dominated at EVERY level of play, has broken almost every record imaginable in hockey, and he did it ALL for the LOVE OF THE GAME...

I don't see how you could not be a fan of him being THE Great One. It's his pure definition.


PS: Alexander Ovechkin > Sidney Crosby, IMO.

[jakncoke]

Im not a fan of those guys that are extremely good, he is a great player ill give him that, but im not a fan. I was a fan of gretzky but im not fan of him being called the greatest to ever play the game etc..

Im a big keith tkachuk fan, reason being he plays for the heart of the game along with shane doan etc... They are not the most amazing players in the league but they are dedicated and i love watching them play. You dont have to be the most amazing player in history to get noticed.

Crosby is good but i think the rest of the team is what makes him good, i mean you have staal and all them out there making is so that other teams cant guard them all, so you either double up on one guy and leave another open or you risk guarding them one on one. I think Crosby just plain knows how to exploit this and is, if he was put on a team that didnt have all great players around him then im sure teams would find ways to shut him down.

He is a amazing player, maybe fight for the next wayne gretzky, but he is just another good player in my eyes.

So who did Crosby have last year to make him good? Staal and Malkin werent on the team and he still almost led the league in pts as a rookie. And to the person Ovechkin is good as well it really apples and oranges with those 2 cant lose either way

[snooper71]

I think you can make an argument for Lindros. The guy did/does have serious injury issues but outside of that he was definitely meeting expectations. The guy is only 125 goals from 500. Considering all the games he missed due to injury, he would have undoubtedly have reached 500 goals before the end of his career or have came seriously close to hitting that mark.I still say "no". Let me be more clear on that one. When the Philladelphia Flyers traded their 1st pick PETER FORSBERG, their #1 Goalie Ron Hextall and a handfull of other players added to a 5m$ compensation (or maybe 10m$ I don't remember) to the Quebec Nordiques, I am sure they expected, yes EXPECTED, the guy to be THE franchise player. THE player to make a difference on the team, you know such has, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur. What did he really do for the Flyers? Nothing... but made them lose one of the best all around player in the NHL for quite a few years. The only thing that made the flyers the dominant team was Lindros linesmates effectiveness. Mainly a 50 goal scorer John Leclair. Ah the Legion of Doom!

Lindros was expected by many experts to be a TOP player, better than Lemieux. Heck, wasn't he called "The next GREAT ONE" ? I believe he was. Even at it's best, he never was half the player he SHOULD have been and was EXPECTED to be. Did Lindros ever score 50 goals? Nope. Was he expected to? Yup.

Injuries? I still believe to this day most (not all) of those injuries we're self inflicted by underachieving pride. But then again, I could be wrong, the 10foot tall guy did get pulled out of a game once after being rammed in the boards by 4 foot tall Saku Koivu. I'm sure his health had everything to do with it :rolleyes: Even with injuries, Lindros has these stats.
GP 711: G-367 A-472 for a total of 839 pts in comparison
Lemieux with 711 games played G-592 A-850 for a total of 1442 pts. Ouch, wasn't Super Mario victim of major back problems? Wasn't he treated for Hogkins (sp)? As a matter of fact...YES. Yet Lindros was to be the NEXT GREAT ONE or simply put, EXPECTED to be, by force of logic, better than Super-Mario. I didn't see that happen, did you?

When you look at what is offered for a player like Lindros, you expect him to be more of a player than the one you gave up. Lindros was never FORSBERG. and that is why I say he did not meet expectations.

I didn't mean to say Lindros was a bad player, just that he did not meet expectations. Lindros never had the impact on the Flyers or Rangers or Maple Leafs that Crosby had with the Penguins. So Crosby goes, so the Pens go. That is meeting expectations. Experts saw Lindros as a force to be wreckoned with. His size, his talent, his complete style of play made him the perfect candidate to DOMINATE the league. Yet he was a fragile butterfly that got injured easily.......

Just look at Vincent Lecavalier, no experts ever tagged him the next great one, yet, he's way bettrer player than Lindros. No one expected much from short player Martin St-Louis...yup, still better player than Lindros.

Ok, maybe I over exagerated putting Lindros in the same sentence with Alenxandre Daigle. But my point is still there, the cry baby who refused to play for 2 teams that he was drafted by did not meet the experts expectations.

You want to know what meeting expectations means?
I give you Sydney Crosby
Pittsburgh Penguins' franchise record for assists in a season by a rookie (63)
Pittsburgh Penguins' franchise record for points in a season by a rookie (102)
First rookie to record 100 points and 100 penalty minutes in a season
Youngest player in NHL history to record 100 points in a season
Youngest player in NHL history to record 200 career points
Youngest player in NHL history to have 2 consecutive 100 point seasons
Youngest player to be voted to the NHL All-Star Game
Youngest player in NHL history to win the Art Ross Trophy




How can you be against Wayne Gretzky being considered the greatest of all time? Who else could you even make an argument for? The guy has more ASSISTS than the 2nd most points total player in history. He's dominated at EVERY level of play, has broken almost every record imaginable in hockey, and he did it ALL for the LOVE OF THE GAME...

I don't see how you could not be a fan of him being THE Great One. It's his pure definition.


PS: Alexander Ovechkin > Sidney Crosby, IMO.Note that I am not arguing with you on this one, just posting about a player that could easily be tagged the best player of all time in response to your question.

BOBBY ORR
Bobby Orr dominated all defencemen in his time.
270 goals and 645 assits (915pts) in 655 NHL games.
NHL record for plus/minus +/- 124
NHL record for most points by a defenceman 139pts
NHL record for most assists by a defenceman

Awards:
Calder
8 Norris
2 Art Ross (only defenceman ever with that award)
3 Hart Memorial
2 Conn Smythe (first player to ever win this award twice)
2 Stanley Cups

Bobby Orr is the only player in NHL history to win 4 major awards in the same season. He was also the youngest player to be inducted in the Hall of Fame at 31 years old.

With only 8 seasons in the NHL (I don't count Chicago, he only played a handfull of games in 3 years) He held many records that we're only beaten 15+ years later by a FORWARD player that was surrounded by Mark Messier, Jarri Kurri, Paul Coffey... to name a few. And all this with knee problems as well!!!!

Now tell me Bobby Orr is not the perfect candidate for best player of all time?

And by the way Crosby > Ovechkin. The former is a Russian player in NHL settings. They tend to reduce gameplay with the seasons... Oooops, yup he already dropped 14 pts from his rookie season with one extra game under his belt. Sydney Crosby on the other hand raised his production by 18 pts with 3 games less.

[justintheman99]

Well I bet everyone can guess here who I am a fan of. GO PENS!

[DINAMO788]

the main reason why i like him so much is because he seems like a good guy. mainly from that nhl commercial when ovechkin pranks him(i lawld) but he seems cool. his skills are impecable and outright insane. i think he can very well become the standout, unmatched player of our generation

[justintheman99]

the main reason why i like him so much is because he seems like a good guy. mainly from that nhl commercial when ovechkin pranks him(i lawld) but he seems cool. his skills are impecable and outright insane. i think he can very well become the standout, unmatched player of our generation

If you ask me he already is the standout, unmatched player of our generation. Nobody in the league battles as hard as Crosby does. It is funny to watch the other players try to get the puck from him when he is in along the boards. His skills with using his feet as well as his stick for puck posession is the best I have ever seen.

[netbevit]

I still say "no". Let me be more clear on that one. When the Philladelphia Flyers traded their 1st pick PETER FORSBERG, their #1 Goalie Ron Hextall and a handfull of other players added to a 5m$ compensation (or maybe 10m$ I don't remember) to the Quebec Nordiques, I am sure they expected, yes EXPECTED, the guy to be THE franchise player. THE player to make a difference on the team, you know such has, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur. What did he really do for the Flyers? Nothing... but made them lose one of the best all around player in the NHL for quite a few years. The only thing that made the flyers the dominant team was Lindros linesmates effectiveness. Mainly a 50 goal scorer John Leclair. Ah the Legion of Doom!

Lindros was expected by many experts to be a TOP player, better than Lemieux. Heck, wasn't he called "The next GREAT ONE" ? I believe he was. Even at it's best, he never was half the player he SHOULD have been and was EXPECTED to be. Did Lindros ever score 50 goals? Nope. Was he expected to? Yup.

Injuries? I still believe to this day most (not all) of those injuries we're self inflicted by underachieving pride. But then again, I could be wrong, the 10foot tall guy did get pulled out of a game once after being rammed in the boards by 4 foot tall Saku Koivu. I'm sure his health had everything to do with it :rolleyes: Even with injuries, Lindros has these stats.
GP 711: G-367 A-472 for a total of 839 pts in comparison
Lemieux with 711 games played G-592 A-850 for a total of 1442 pts. Ouch, wasn't Super Mario victim of major back problems? Wasn't he treated for Hogkins (sp)? As a matter of fact...YES. Yet Lindros was to be the NEXT GREAT ONE or simply put, EXPECTED to be, by force of logic, better than Super-Mario. I didn't see that happen, did you?

When you look at what is offered for a player like Lindros, you expect him to be more of a player than the one you gave up. Lindros was never FORSBERG. and that is why I say he did not meet expectations.

I didn't mean to say Lindros was a bad player, just that he did not meet expectations. Lindros never had the impact on the Flyers or Rangers or Maple Leafs that Crosby had with the Penguins. So Crosby goes, so the Pens go. That is meeting expectations. Experts saw Lindros as a force to be wreckoned with. His size, his talent, his complete style of play made him the perfect candidate to DOMINATE the league. Yet he was a fragile butterfly that got injured easily.......

Just look at Vincent Lecavalier, no experts ever tagged him the next great one, yet, he's way bettrer player than Lindros. No one expected much from short player Martin St-Louis...yup, still better player than Lindros.

Ok, maybe I over exagerated putting Lindros in the same sentence with Alenxandre Daigle. But my point is still there, the cry baby who refused to play for 2 teams that he was drafted by did not meet the experts expectations.

You want to know what meeting expectations means?
I give you Sydney Crosby
Pittsburgh Penguins' franchise record for assists in a season by a rookie (63)
Pittsburgh Penguins' franchise record for points in a season by a rookie (102)
First rookie to record 100 points and 100 penalty minutes in a season
Youngest player in NHL history to record 100 points in a season
Youngest player in NHL history to record 200 career points
Youngest player in NHL history to have 2 consecutive 100 point seasons
Youngest player to be voted to the NHL All-Star Game
Youngest player in NHL history to win the Art Ross Trophy



Note that I am not arguing with you on this one, just posting about a player that could easily be tagged the best player of all time in response to your question.

BOBBY ORR
Bobby Orr dominated all defencemen in his time.
270 goals and 645 assits (915pts) in 655 NHL games.
NHL record for plus/minus +/- 124
NHL record for most points by a defenceman 139pts
NHL record for most assists by a defenceman

Awards:
Calder
8 Norris
2 Art Ross (only defenceman ever with that award)
3 Hart Memorial
2 Conn Smythe (first player to ever win this award twice)
2 Stanley Cups

Bobby Orr is the only player in NHL history to win 4 major awards in the same season. He was also the youngest player to be inducted in the Hall of Fame at 31 years old.

With only 8 seasons in the NHL (I don't count Chicago, he only played a handfull of games in 3 years) He held many records that we're only beaten 15+ years later by a FORWARD player that was surrounded by Mark Messier, Jarri Kurri, Paul Coffey... to name a few. And all this with knee problems as well!!!!

Now tell me Bobby Orr is not the perfect candidate for best player of all time?

And by the way Crosby > Ovechkin. The former is a Russian player in NHL settings. They tend to reduce gameplay with the seasons... Oooops, yup he already dropped 14 pts from his rookie season with one extra game under his belt. Sydney Crosby on the other hand raised his production by 18 pts with 3 games less.

On the Lindros area, it doesn't matter what the Flyers gave up for him. The draft will ALWAYS be a crapshoot. Nobody knew Forsberg was going to be as solid as he was. Just look at guys like Ryan Leaf. People are projected to be "The Next Great One" all the time, or the "Next Jordan"... Then when they don't smash records, it's "they didn't meet our expectations".... That is HARDLY fair. Players like Wayne Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy, etc... Only come around once in a generation of players...

Lindros was capable of hitting 50 goals 3-4 times in his career, but managed to only play 50-65 games in those seasons. Yes, the guy was frail, but once again, you can't fault him for it. It's not like he chose to be frail. There are tons of frail all-star athletes who are overpaid for. When you look at the TURNOVER rate in the NHL and the average career expectancy... Anytime any player can play as long as Lindros did, you've met an expectation. Lindros was shooting 20% or around that for the majority of his career... That's an incredible percentage. It's just so unfair and unjust to measure someones expectancy against guys like Wayne Gretzky.

---

Next on Sidney Crosby. 90% of Crosby's records are once again, only records because Wayne Gretzky played in the WHA in his rookie season.

Then you compare who Gretzky had around him and attribute his success to that basically. Look at Sidney. He had nobody on his team last year, yet his point product was 18 points less, correct? Ovechkin has had NOBODY on his team this year and his production dropped 14 points. Go figure. Crosby had nobody on his team last year and put up 18 points less than when he DID have someone to help him out, right?

Let's look more on Sidney. His goal production dropped by 3 goals and a big reason as to why he was able to even hit 100 points was because he had those players around him to gain so many assists with. Ovechkin is scoring on average 49 goals a season so far while Crosby is scoring 37.5.

Every great player needs a player around him for help. Ovechkin is doing what he's doing with nobody. Also, I'm pretty sure there are a boatload of Russians who would disagree with the drop-off year to year comment who are considered all-stars in the league.

-----

Now for the Bobby Orr comment... When he can stack up to 8 MVP's in a ROW, 9 total(the most for any athlete in any sport)...

Along with all of these...

Lou Kaplan Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Kaplan_Trophy) (WHA rookie of the year) — 1979
Hart Memorial Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hart_Memorial_Trophy) (most valuable player) — 1980–87, 1989
Art Ross Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Ross_Trophy) (scoring champion) — 1981–87, 1990, 1991, 1994
Conn Smythe Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conn_Smythe_Trophy) (playoff most valuable player) — 1985, 1988
Lester B. Pearson Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_B._Pearson_Award) (outstanding player, voted by the players) — 1982–85, 1987
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Byng_Memorial_Trophy) (sportsmanship) — 1980, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1999
NHL Plus/Minus Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_Plus/Minus_Award) (best plus-minus rating) — 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987
Chrysler-Dodge/NHL Performer of the Year – 1985–87
Lester Patrick Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Patrick_Trophy) (outstanding service to hockey in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)) — 1994
Lou Marsh Trophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Marsh_Trophy) (Canadian athlete of the year) — 1982, 1983, 1985, 1989
NHL All-Star Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_All-Star_Game) MVP — 1983, 1989, 1999
NHL First All-Star Team — 1981–87, 1991
NHL Second All-Star Team — 1980, 1988–90, 1994, 1997, 1998
In 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998), he was ranked number 1 on The Hockey News (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hockey_News)' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey PlayersOn top of...


Wayne Gretzky held or shared 61 NHL records upon his retirement on April 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_18), 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999), including 40 regular season records, 15 playoff records, and 6 all-star records.
The regular season records include most goals in a season (92), most assists in a season (163), and most points in a season (215). He also holds the record for the fastest 50 goals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_goals_in_50_games), accomplishing that feat in only 39 games and the record for most goals in a 50 game period (61, which he accomplished twice). In 1983-84, he had a 51-game point-scoring streak that has been compared to "Joltin' Joe" DiMaggio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_DiMaggio)'s streak in baseball, during which he scored 61 goals and received credit for 92 assists (153 points).
Gretzky set impressive records in both regular season and post-season play, holding the record for most career regular season goals (894), assists (1,963), points (2,857), and hat tricks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat_trick) (50). The next closest player in total points for the regular season is Mark Messier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Messier) at 1,887. Gretzky's point total including regular season and playoffs stands at an imposing 3,239. Gretzky also had more career assists than any other player has ever gained total points.
His 47 playoff points in 1985 and 31 assists in 1988 are still records for a single post-season round, and he holds the record for career playoff goals (122), assists (260), points (382), hat tricks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat_trick) (10), and game winning goals (24).


When Orr can compete with ALL of that side by side or come within even a FRACTION worth comparing to that... Then I'll consider Orr as "The Greatest To Ever Play The Game"... The only problem is, nobody can stack up to those award numbers or record numbers... Nobody can even come close.

Yes, I know you're not arguing against it, you're arguing for another player. However, Orr simply isn't even close to those whether he played 8 years or not. Orr may come the closest in terms of achievement, but the closest is still like 2-3 platforms down.

[justintheman99]

The one question I always ask myself is will we ever see Gretzky's records broken? If so who will do it?

[netbevit]

The one question I always ask myself is will we ever see Gretzky's records broken? If so who will do it?


I highly doubt it. Whose going to score 93 goals in a season, 213 points in a season, 164 assists in a season, etc...

Most of his points records are pretty much untouchable. Even his 50 goals in 39 games is going to be EXTREMELY difficult to beat.

PS: I'm pretty sure right now Alexander Ovechkin is the only player on "pace" to break Gretzky's goals in a career record... But he'd have to continue scoring 49 goals a season or so for 18 years, lol. So basically, he won't.

[jakncoke]

Or how bout this will anyone enter the like Top 13 for pts in a season Super Marion and W.G have like all spots cept one , I cant find figures for outside Top 10.

Pretty Crazy for W.G

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/waynegretzky/a/gretzky_records.htm

[justintheman99]

Wow, it is crazy when reading some of those numbers that Gretzky pulled off. Some of those records are purely untouchable.

[netbevit]

Or how bout this will anyone enter the like Top 13 for pts in a season Super Marion and W.G have like all spots cept one , I cant find figures for outside Top 10.

Pretty Crazy for W.G

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/waynegretzky/a/gretzky_records.htm


I know, it's completely SICK.

Wayne owns like the top 5 spots for assists in a season, lol.

But Lemieux and Wayne owning to the top 10 for most points in a season is just crazy.

[soldier one]

How can you be against Wayne Gretzky being considered the greatest of all time? Who else could you even make an argument for? The guy has more ASSISTS than the 2nd most points total player in history. He's dominated at EVERY level of play, has broken almost every record imaginable in hockey, and he did it ALL for the LOVE OF THE GAME...

I don't see how you could not be a fan of him being THE Great One. It's his pure definition.

I dint say im not a fan of him infact im a major fan of him but i dont think he is the greatest player ever. :) Just because you can break records and all that dont mean everyone will think your the best, sure you are, but im a bigger fan of other players like keith tkachuk.


So who did Crosby have last year to make him good? Staal and Malkin werent on the team and he still almost led the league in pts as a rookie. And to the person Ovechkin is good as well it really apples and oranges with those 2 cant lose either way

No but the players knew how to use him and get some attention on him and thats how they win. This year they are a better team therefore i have high hopes for them in the playoffs.

Like i said i dont think the kid sucks at all, he is a amazing player, im just a fan of other guys that dont try and do it all at once.

[DINAMO788]

im sorry soldier but tkachuk is a fat loser. all he did was mess up kozlovs point heat by eating up ice time.

you guys gotta watch calder and schnider play....those have some heart...