View Full Version : Microsoft must act on hardware failures
Infinite Daremo
05-24-2007, 23:27
Long article so ill post a snippet. Good read anyways.
Rings of Red
Microsoft needs to act now on hardware failures - or risk losing consumer support.
With all the accolades presently being paid to Nintendo for the astonishing success of the DS and the Wii, it's understandable that Microsoft occasionally seems a bit put out by the whole situation. After all, the Xbox 360 sailed through the seemingly ambitious 10 million unit goal which was set for its first year or so on the market, and is outdoing Sony's PS3 in most markets - a situation which few would have dared to predict only a few years ago.
Given the circumstances, it's not hard to see why some more ill-advised comments from Microsoft executives regarding the Wii have seemed... Well, a touch bitter. Right now, Microsoft must feel like the kid who stayed up all night learning all the best combos in Street Fighter, only to arrive in school the next day and discover that everyone else in the class has decided to play marbles instead.
Nintendo's resurgence, however, doesn't really detract from Microsoft's success in real terms. Right now, the Xbox 360 is winning the battle which it set out to win - namely, the battle with Sony's PS3 - and is showing no sign of relinquishing its dominance of the "real" next-gen market.
I have always argued that this fight was Sony's to lose, and that remains the case; what's happened here is that Sony has slipped up badly enough, and fallen hard enough, to give Microsoft a clear shot at goal. The problematic PR, delayed launch and presently weak software line-up for PS3 are all fairly major concerns; the enormous price point, however, is the most serious issue.
Prior to launch, plenty of people questioned whether the market would support that pricing level - Blu-ray drive or not. The answer has returned, loud and clear; no, the market will not support this price point. Every day that Sony leaves the PS3 on the shelves with this unattractive price tag attached gives its rivals more of a head start.
With flawless execution, Microsoft could sail into the space which is being left by Sony's failures and build an Xbox 360 market share which would be practically unassailable. In some regards, that's exactly what it has done. Nobody can downplay the company's astonishing achievements with regard to software; the Xbox 360 has a compelling line-up of software on shelves, and an even more compelling line-up of exclusive titles in the pipeline.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/newsletter.php?aid=25307
Donīt be shy! The juicy bit is the one you didnīt post:
Rings of Red
Microsoft needs to act now on hardware failures - or risk losing consumer support.
With all the accolades presently being paid to Nintendo for the astonishing success of the DS and the Wii, it's understandable that Microsoft occasionally seems a bit put out by the whole situation. After all, the Xbox 360 sailed through the seemingly ambitious 10 million unit goal which was set for its first year or so on the market, and is outdoing Sony's PS3 in most markets - a situation which few would have dared to predict only a few years ago.
Given the circumstances, it's not hard to see why some more ill-advised comments from Microsoft executives regarding the Wii have seemed... Well, a touch bitter. Right now, Microsoft must feel like the kid who stayed up all night learning all the best combos in Street Fighter, only to arrive in school the next day and discover that everyone else in the class has decided to play marbles instead.
Nintendo's resurgence, however, doesn't really detract from Microsoft's success in real terms. Right now, the Xbox 360 is winning the battle which it set out to win - namely, the battle with Sony's PS3 - and is showing no sign of relinquishing its dominance of the "real" next-gen market.
I have always argued that this fight was Sony's to lose, and that remains the case; what's happened here is that Sony has slipped up badly enough, and fallen hard enough, to give Microsoft a clear shot at goal. The problematic PR, delayed launch and presently weak software line-up for PS3 are all fairly major concerns; the enormous price point, however, is the most serious issue.
Prior to launch, plenty of people questioned whether the market would support that pricing level - Blu-ray drive or not. The answer has returned, loud and clear; no, the market will not support this price point. Every day that Sony leaves the PS3 on the shelves with this unattractive price tag attached gives its rivals more of a head start.
With flawless execution, Microsoft could sail into the space which is being left by Sony's failures and build an Xbox 360 market share which would be practically unassailable. In some regards, that's exactly what it has done. Nobody can downplay the company's astonishing achievements with regard to software; the Xbox 360 has a compelling line-up of software on shelves, and an even more compelling line-up of exclusive titles in the pipeline.
Games like Halo 3, Bioshock and Mass Effect make Xbox 360 owners feel good about their purchase, and provide compelling reasons for Xbox and PlayStation 2 owners to upgrade. Indeed, in the top ten Most Wanted games chart compiled from user data on GamesIndustry.biz's sister site, Eurogamer.net, seven of the top ten titles are Xbox 360 games. Two Wii titles (Super Mario Galaxy and Super Paper Mario) make it into the ranking; only one PS3 title, Metal Gear Solid 4, appears.
It's obvious, then, that Microsoft is doing more than just making headway with the hardcore audience. Frankly, that battle is all but won, and the onus is now on Sony to demonstrate that it is capable of creating an offering for hardcore gamers that is as attractive as the one Microsoft has crafted.
The obvious criticism - which is no less true for being so obvious - is that there's precious little evidence of Microsoft's software line-up managing to break out of that hardcore market. The company still lacks not only the kind of Singstar, Eye Toy and Buzz titles which drive casual market adoption, but also the Final Fantasies and Tekkens which appeal to the vast mass of "average" gamers who lie outside the hardcore market Xbox 360 has so far exploited.
This is, at least, a well-understood problem, and one which is widely commented upon. It has, of course, done nothing to slow down Microsoft's race to ten million; but it may make the next ten million a lot harder to sell, and the following ten million almost impossible, if the issue is not addressed.
However, there is another problem which Microsoft faces at the moment - one which the company has shown even less sign of understanding, or addressing. It is the problem of hardware reliability and customer service, an area in which the Xbox 360 has a track record that is nothing short of utterly appalling - and an area which Microsoft absolutely must address, or risk handing the goodwill of the market back to its rivals.
Of course, this too is not a new problem. Microsoft has been slammed over the failure rate of Xbox 360 consoles, and its own poor customer service in dealing with that matter, many times before - British readers will undoubtedly recall that the firm was hauled over the coals on the Watchdog programme here only a few months ago.
This problem hasn't gone away; in fact, from a consumer point of view, Microsoft appears to have done precisely nothing to address it. While the attention of the media may have turned to scrutiny of Sony's failings, the vast numbers of Xbox 360 owners who have been let down first by Microsoft's shoddy manufacturing, and subsequently by the company's arrogant and unfair policies with regard to customer service, have increased. Their voices are contributing to a groundswell of unrest and negative buzz which will hurt Microsoft very badly indeed if it is not addressed.
The problem is clear. A large number of Xbox 360 consoles from launch onwards have shipped with manufacturing problems which have manifested themselves in the dreaded "three red lights" - an error code displayed on the front panel which means that the console has died, and needs to be returned to Microsoft for service.
The number of systems which shipped with these problems is a matter of some debate, but it's clear that it is a far, far higher proportion than the company originally admitted. Early claims suggested that Xbox 360 consoles were only failing as often as you would expect from any piece of consumer hardware - a figure generally agreed to be around 3 per cent. However, entire batches of consoles at launch were failing en masse - and the reliability, although it improved, continued to be poor for months afterwards.
Has this been fixed? Who can say - Microsoft has certainly made no promises regarding enhanced reliability for the Xbox 360 Elite console, so it's simply impossible to judge whether new machines rolling off the production line will be any better than their predecessors. Even giving the benefit of the doubt, that still means that millions of machines from the "unreliable" period of the console's manufacturing are sitting under televisions around the world.
This, however, is only half of the problem. For a new piece of consumer hardware to display a high failure rate is damaging, but not seriously so, as long as the company has a good system in place to ensure that customers' systems are being repaired, and goodwill is being maintained.
Unfortunately, Microsoft has made two massive blunders in this regard. Firstly, it has taken to shipping refurbished systems to customers whose consoles have died - not a huge problem in itself, but the reliability of these refurbished machines is also vastly suspect, which results in anecdotal cases where gamers have returned their consoles to Microsoft three or even four times, with each subsequent console suffering the same fault after a few months. These cases make compelling "horror stories" for consumers, and have been widely disseminated.
Secondly, despite its shameful appearance on Watchdog, and being lambasted by the press over its behaviour, Microsoft continues to insist that British consumers whose consoles have failed after its 12 month warranty period must pay GBP 85 (around 125 Euro) to have the system repaired. Its customer service representatives are adamant on this point, refusing to budge even when it is pointed out that these manufacturing flaws are clearly Microsoft's responsibility under consumer law, regardless of the terms of the firm's own warranty.
For Microsoft to rectify these problems will, of course, be painful and expensive for the firm. It is also absolutely essential if its head start over Sony, and the market goodwill it has built around its brand, are to be even remotely meaningful over the coming years.
To hardcore gamers, consoles are "special case" items; they are early adopters, generally have a large disposable income, and are willing to accept all manner of problems and flaws in order to enjoy the games they want to play. However, they are a small - if vocal - market. To everyone else, to the vast ocean of consumers to whom Microsoft must now appeal, if the PlayStation brand is to be unseated, a console is just another piece of consumer electronics, and it is subject to the same standards you would expect from your DVD player, your digital camera or your toaster.
You wouldn't buy a specific DVD player, no matter how nice the feature-set, if a friend had told you that he bought one last year and had to return it to the manufacturer three times. You wouldn't buy a certain digital camera if you heard that they routinely break down after 13 months, and you have to pay around a third of the original purchase cost to have them repaired. You wouldn't buy a toaster if your friend had that model of toaster, said it made lovely toast, but every couple of months it burns the bread and has to be replaced.
Silly examples? Not in the slightest; this is exactly the thought process with which the average consumer, considering a next-gen purchase, is presented. The Xbox 360 may be a magical box of wonders to the hardcore gamers enjoying the likes of Gears of War and Crackdown, but to the rest of the world, it's just another piece of consumer electronics. If they hear horror stories about reliability and customer service, they won't buy it - end of story.
Right now, those horror stories are proliferating; the word of mouth about Xbox 360 is that the games are great, but the hardware is a nightmare. If Microsoft is serious about reaching an audience with Xbox 360 which is bigger than the 20 million units achieved by Xbox, then that simply isn't good enough. It's time for Redmond to stop burying its head in the sand over this problem, and start coming up with solutions - before its unhappy customers become one of Sony's best assets.
I agree. Microsoft needs to change to 65nm and say goodbye to all those problems ASAP!
Infinite Daremo
05-24-2007, 23:34
Oh my its like Everest. I prefer just snippets so people will click the link, instead of just bashing without reading the article.
chartwel
05-24-2007, 23:34
I agree. Microsoft needs to change to 65nm and say goodbye to all those problems ASAP!
whos to say just going to 65 nm will fix the problems? hopefully they do. i might pick up a 360 in the future but dont want too if its going to f*ck up on me.
whos to say just going to 65 nm will fix the problems? hopefully they do. i might pick up a 360 in the future but dont want too if its going to f*ck up on me.
The 3 red lights are caused mostly for the heat inside the console. Since my console was bought in USA, people has to go to my friend who is an informal console technician. He fixes the 3 rings of light by helping the console disipate the heat better.
If they switch to 65nm, the new chips will generate a lot less heat so therefore, these problems should be dramatically decreased.
good article.
but it suggests nothing. with 10 million consoles that could potentially suffer the same fate what is the best course of action? Id say extend all warranties to 3 years (only based on RoD failures). If my console lasts 3 years plus, Im not going to be that unhappy that the console has gone wrong. For something to last 3 years it has to be made to a fairly high standard. Plus by then the price would have dropped: I don't think anyone is going to be that fussed about Ģ100 per year in terms of average yearly cost. Whether this is done implicit or explicitly doesn't really bother me....... but for MS implicit should be the way forward. Just deal with customers well and noone will give a ****.
Secondly, despite its shameful appearance on Watchdog, and being lambasted by the press over its behaviour, Microsoft continues to insist that British consumers whose consoles have failed after its 12 month warranty period must pay GBP 85 (around 125 Euro) to have the system repaired. Its customer service representatives are adamant on this point, refusing to budge even when it is pointed out that these manufacturing flaws are clearly Microsoft's responsibility under consumer law, regardless of the terms of the firm's own warranty.
haha, no the joke is that retaillers are shifting responsibility to manufacturers. Whats even worse is I bet watchdog didn't even inform its consumers that you don't even have to send the ******* back to MS. Just get it replaced *for free* at your retailer.
convulsion
05-25-2007, 16:44
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mass lawsuit.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mass lawsuit.
Well, gamers who have invested in games and accessories will pay out the wazoo to get their consoles playing again, otherwise they lose out on the investment. Imagine spending on a few controllers/accessories, 5 games and a year of live along with the console at Xmas. Thats about 1000 dollars total. Now your console dies and you are asked to pay 50-150 to get it fixed. Do you throw everything in the trash, losing 1000 total, or do you pay the 100 and continue to enjoy your games?
Plus theres some who don't play a lot, don't frequent forums, or parents who come home and Johnny says "Dad, the Xbox is broken". And dad spends 100 getting it fixed, or buys another, god forbid Johnny doesn't get to play the games that his friends are playing and Dad has bought as Xmas presents.
Add to that "fanboys" who would rather get the console fixed quietly than lose face in front of other "fanboys", and all you have left is relatively low percentage of outspoken critics out of total owners with issues.
Its like this with every other piece of electronics equipment, be it Apple Ipods, TVs, even Playstations or Nintendos.
And until we get an MS insider to spill the beans on the real numbers all we have is "informal accounts" of failures and MS can stick to their 3% BS line.
My question is, if the console spends 1 month dead and in transit, is that credited to your Live account?
Hardware issues are one of the main reasons I haven't got a 360 yet, I can't be bothered to deal with the hassle of it all. Especially as almost all my friends with a 360, have had to have replacements, and some had a bit of hassle from MS.
What's sad is MS seem to be doing little to calm the situation, it's a shame. I never had a console die on me, although a few people I know have had PS2 DREs, but I've never encountered anything this bad before, it's amazing how bad it seems to be.
Hardware issues are one of the main reasons I haven't got a 360 yet, I can't be bothered to deal with the hassle of it all. Especially as almost all my friends with a 360, have had to have replacements, and some had a bit of hassle from MS.
What's sad is MS seem to be doing little to calm the situation, it's a shame. I never had a console die on me, although a few people I know have had PS2 DREs, but I've never encountered anything this bad before, it's amazing how bad it seems to be.
if you're in the UK you don't need to send your 360 back to MS... just go into the shop, say 'its got 3 red lights', they'll tell you to send it to MS, you politely tell them that actually you have a years warranty against the retailler not MS. New console, New years warranty with the manufacturer, New model 360 (i got a quieter one :D)
don't be afraid of this **** - just know how to deal with it. i feel for those who live outside of the EU though (who don't benefit from proper consumer protection - although i know there are some exceptions before anyone flames me....)
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mass lawsuit.
Don't worry, at the rate things are going, it's on its way. It just takes the right people to come forth, and the right lawyers to take up the case.
I would have purchased an XBox 360 by now, if it wasn't so unreliable. I have a couple of buddies who bought 360s, and within a couple of months they got the rings. One is on his 3rd console the other still on the 2nd.
if you're in the UK you don't need to send your 360 back to MS... just go into the shop, say 'its got 3 red lights', they'll tell you to send it to MS, you politely tell them that actually you have a years warranty against the retailler not MS. New console, New years warranty with the manufacturer, New model 360 (i got a quieter one :D)
don't be afraid of this **** - just know how to deal with it. i feel for those who live outside of the EU though (who don't benefit from proper consumer protection - although i know there are some exceptions before anyone flames me....)
Still too much hassle for me, I could probably fix it myself but it would be too much hassle. The point for me is not the fear of breaking but the fear of effort.
Einhander
05-25-2007, 18:19
My question is, if the console spends 1 month dead and in transit, is that credited to your Live account?
Nope... Not at all........................
GroshKar
05-25-2007, 18:28
A friend of mine has done product engineering consulting work on components of the Xbox and Xbox 360 has told me some interesting things about the Xbox's development cycle over the years. Microsoft outsourced most of the hardware related issues of the Xbox 360. They paid for a lot of product engineering consultants to work no various elements of the design, but in the end the hardware manufacturer overrode many of those and decided to go with their own design. He talks in particular about how he doesn't like how they decided to do their plan for the wireless add-on, and how ugly he thinks it looks.
Anyways, he still does some work for them and he has a low opinion of the outsourced manufacturer being able to fix the problems.
Manufacturing rep: "Here is newly redesigned component."
"Um, you didn't fix any of the actual problems that the last one had."
MR: "But this one is new!"
Anyways, he also says that MS has been hiring more hardware types recently and speculates that they are getting sick of it and are bringing more of it in-house.
Perfect Sin
05-25-2007, 18:55
It's great that MS has hit the 10 million mark in their first year...but other then that I haven't heard any recent news saying they've broken 11 or 12 million consoles shipped.
And it's been that way for 5 months now...shouldn't we be hearing an update on these numbers?
if you're in the UK you don't need to send your 360 back to MS... just go into the shop, say 'its got 3 red lights', they'll tell you to send it to MS, you politely tell them that actually you have a years warranty against the retailler not MS. New console, New years warranty with the manufacturer, New model 360 (i got a quieter one :D)
don't be afraid of this **** - just know how to deal with it. i feel for those who live outside of the EU though (who don't benefit from proper consumer protection - although i know there are some exceptions before anyone flames me....)
Which retailer gives a year warranty? Your Statutory Rights under the Sales of Goods Act with your retailer is 28 days. You only have a year warranty with the retailer if they specifically provide that as part of their service. Guarantees are a legally binding obligation between you and the guarantor, not the retailer (unless they were the one providing the guarantee) and therefore if the product comes with a manufacturer's 1 year guarantee and it's more than 28 days after purchase, the retailer can politely tell you to contact the manufacturer directly to resolve the issue.
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?file=ADV0043-1011.txt
Isn't MS putting out an updated console this fall to end the Red Ring problem?
I think they would be runnin up on 13-15 millino right now if they didn't release such a ****ty box.
By far their biggest issue and it really is a PR disaster...I think it would be pretty urealistic to assume that the majority of people who play console games do not know about this problem.
It should have been squashed and dealt with within 3 months tops...but they didn't. Maybe they signed contracts with the lowest bidder, maybe they just trusted this company they would sort it out, who knows, either way it's not an issue to take lightly...but it would seem as though they did.
The entire send your's in and get someone else's refurb was ridiculous, sure it's probably standard procedure for a lot of companies, but I think it's the biggest reason people are on 2-5 consoles.
However, after the obvious first day of "red ring elites", i really haven't heard of any issues with them. Is the problem sorted out now? I guess it's hard to say after only a few hundred thousand...but I would think we would hear a lot about it if it was an issue still.
if your 360 breaks send it in and get a new one.
or get the year warrnety from the store
psycho_rez
05-25-2007, 20:06
woah, i thought it was three rings of death, or was it three red rings?....or red rings of doom?....quite confused here q.p
SnowHawk
05-25-2007, 20:45
"thing's break you know" seriously microsoft dont care about their customers they will put the 65nm in the 360 when they want too that will be next year when they start getting a profit from the 360
PiP4LyFe
05-25-2007, 20:48
I hope they do fix it, so i can buy a 360.
I was figuring with their head start they would have the 65nm chips out by now.
Beodude123
05-25-2007, 21:19
If they switch to 65nm, the new chips will generate a lot less heat so therefore, these problems should be dramatically decreased.
Do we have any data on how much less heat it will produce? I'm sure that it would reduce it's heat footprint, however will it be enough to bring the failure rate down to a tolerable level? If the design has a flaw serious enough to create the buzz that it has, will changing only the CPU be enough? Maybe it will slow down the process, but it will still happen.
I haven't seen any factual data on how much heat a 65nm chipset would produce compared to the 90nm. I really am interested in how much heat both put out. I just wonder if it would truly be enough to change their numbers.
My box JUST (within the hour) got fried. Wow.
Still too much hassle for me, I could probably fix it myself but it would be too much hassle. The point for me is not the fear of breaking but the fear of effort.fair enough I suppose. its worth the fear in my opinion. - although i would agree more if you did have to return it to MS. that is a *******.
Which retailer gives a year warranty? Your Statutory Rights under the Sales of Goods Act with your retailer is 28 days. You only have a year warranty with the retailer if they specifically provide that as part of their service. Guarantees are a legally binding obligation between you and the guarantor, not the retailer (unless they were the one providing the guarantee) and therefore if the product comes with a manufacturer's 1 year guarantee and it's more than 28 days after purchase, the retailer can politely tell you to contact the manufacturer directly to resolve the issue.
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?file=ADV0043-1011.txt
Ill hunt down the issue - but yes - that 28 day warranty was quoted to me, but you do definately have 1 years warranty against the retailler. For the first 6 months its the retaillers responsibility to prove you broke the console, for the final 6 months the burden of proof is on you to prove the console broke through no fault of your own. The RoD makes that quite easy.
I was fairly sure that was in the sale of goods act, but ill double check for you.
*edit:ah yeah, here we go - this is an extract from a very informed person on the consumeractiongroup website:
Your statutory rights fall under this Act, and it says that anything you purchase must be:
- Of satisfactory quality
- Fit for all normal purposes
- As described
Your rights can last for up to six years from purchase, but they will weaken over time and it will not cover faults which are due to normal wear and tear.
During the six months from purchase, the onus is on the retailer to prove that the goods are not faulty, after this there is an onus on the consumer to prove that the goods were faulty at the point of sale and the fault is a manufacturing fault and not normal wear and tear. However if the fault that has occurred is not something you would reasonably expect to happen after the length of time, then you have a clear argument that the item does not comply with the Sale of Goods Act.
she also mentions that returning your console to the manufacturer invalidates any rights you have against the original retailer.
heres the link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-consumer-issues/84499-what-excellent-forum-xbox.html?highlight=xbox+360
hope that helps someone, it got me a new xbox :D
so is it the CPU or the GPU that gets to hot? or is it both together?
are they going 65nm for CPU and GPU or just CPU?
MS fix this or i no buy!
Fantastic article, wow sure says alot! I do agree though, Microsoft needs to address those hardware issue quickly. Like Sony, they are struggling with similar issue with games. The question becomes who will act first? Microsoft on the hardware issues or Sony on bringing out its killer titles? Time will tell, very soon.
PsychoMantis
05-26-2007, 19:16
I havent had to return my system for any problems so thats a bullet dodge. I have a friend who had to return 3 before he got one that worked.
Knuckles126
05-26-2007, 19:55
The whole damn console needs to be trashed and redesigned. Thats the only way to sufficiently fix the problem. The fact is this: Microsoft rushed to market with a console that was only half finished that still has major defects.
Switching to 65nm processors isn't going to magically fix the problem like Aquanox is suggesting. I'm sure there is alot more too it than that.
Which retailer gives a year warranty? Your Statutory Rights under the Sales of Goods Act with your retailer is 28 days. You only have a year warranty with the retailer if they specifically provide that as part of their service. Guarantees are a legally binding obligation between you and the guarantor, not the retailer (unless they were the one providing the guarantee) and therefore if the product comes with a manufacturer's 1 year guarantee and it's more than 28 days after purchase, the retailer can politely tell you to contact the manufacturer directly to resolve the issue.
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?file=ADV0043-1011.txt
there is a law.......cheap products have a 1 year guarantee, 500Euro and above is 3 years...and a lot more expensive is 5 years.........
Dasimpse
05-27-2007, 12:23
2-4 A DAY BACK FAULTY GARAUNTEED!!!!
THATS 2 to 4 A DAY!!!!! come back faulty!!!! And thats just my store, a little town store in the UK, imagine what big stores must be gettin back a day!
The 360 is the faultiest console in history!!!
Its beyond a joke now!