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DezNutz
02-14-2005, 03:12
One thing I really like about Sony, is that they seem to re-invest in us the gamers. More so, then any other company (sega, nintendo or microsoft), they have not only made a ton of money off of us gamers, but they put more money into delivering us the best. Take this latest next generation for example, they partnered with 2 other companies for over 3 years developoing new cpu technology (the cell) spending over 300 million dollars in development just for us gamers. add-in the devlpment of the blue-ray disk/ readers/ getting compies signed to support the technology, and developing the technology further again for movies, but also for us gamers. Sony has made ther own plants to make chips to keep cost lower again making easier cost for top of line products for us gamers. They have done this for all three systems so far, and I am sure are already working on some ideas for the fourth. I never see this kind of money/time/ or development taken by any other console game company, most do some minor adaptaions of exisitng technology and rely on other manufactures to produce their products. Sony seems to realize the market in video games, and they also seem to realize it takes alot to remain at the top, and more so then any other company they put the money and time where their mouth is devloping state of the art hardware for each next generation system. Seems nice to know that not all my money used purchasing games is being thrown away by a game company that will slop together another system (thanks saturn), put are re-investing gamers money making our dreams of better systems and hardware a reality. Nice to see some companies making leaps for gamers instead of just adpating exisitng technology or keeping gamers money and not making an effor to create some new technology.

The_One
02-14-2005, 03:24
spending over 300 million dollars in development just for us gamers.

Sony is not stupid, if it was only for gaming, Sony would not have invested a few billion dollars in the CELL, they have their own agendas for the CELL also. The 300 mill figure you said was for the research alone, don't forget the cost to build fab plants, those are the big money drainers.

siren
02-14-2005, 04:36
The Cell Chip and Blu-Ray are nothing more than Trojan Horses in the PS3.

These were put into the PS3 by Sony Management long before SCE had even started designing the system. Why you ask?

Sony's other divisions are so far in the Red that it is sick. They needed some way to help these other divisions out. They just could no longer compete in the Consumer Electronics space when you have chinese and korean companies with significantly lower cost labor making devices.

So what is their answer? Design and produce an all purpose chip that they can utilize in all their devices. Then utilize their highest volume device to get it into mass market production quickly so that they can cheaply integrate it into their other Console Electronics systems.

As for Blu-Ray. Sony has been trying for over 30 years now to create a format that owns the market. They know that if they succeed then they have a ton of free money for upwards of 20 years flowing in.

They failed with BetaMax, MiniDisc, and will most likely fail with UMD. The closest they have gotten was the original DVD standard. The problem is that they have a very small stake in the standard.

In comes Blu-Ray. We do not know yet how this will end up, but they still have some issues to overcome. Not the least of which is cost.

Now they are doing some things better than before. But main reason the PS3 is using it is to help reduce the cost of Blu-Ray drive and disc production faster than normal market conditions would allow. Thus it is a torjan horse in a sense.

The other issue is whether it will reduce the costs just for Sony or for Everyone. Sony doesn't really care about anyone else who will be making the drives. As far as they are concerned, if putting their drive into the PS3 allows them to reduce the cost of making the drive by 50%, they can now make standalone Blu-Ray players and sell them at retail outlets for 25 - 50% cheaper than their competition. Combine that with their name and they can own that market for a couple of years until their competition can catch up.

Do not think for a moment that they are doing this for gamers. Contrary to that belief, they are doing it to save their company by utilizing their only truly profitable device for the last decade. If they fail or the PS3 were to fail, they so much in debt they could actually go bankrupt.

X2
02-14-2005, 08:08
And you wrong about MS not investing. They invest 5 billion into the xbox and the invest into there gamers and custumers. They do that valuing are opinion. They only gives us what we want and most of the time it's us asking and MS giving. Than MS forcing without us asking. You can't say that for companies like sony or nintendo. If they feel as though its not right to them then they won't institute it. Only when it takes off they want to get a piece of the pie. For example online gaming. It crazy how sony talk about MS like a dog when MS first introduce xbox live. They said that it would go nowhere, but at the same time they rush out they broadband adapter for a just in case. Now look at sony cell chip which is based around what broadband apps. Now look at xbox live 1.4 mil and growing. As far as I concern sony suck more out of there gamers than they put in. For example, sony wanted to slow up the market and gradually get to the graphics that the cell might produce. Sony knew way before ps2 was put out that it was going to be hard to develop for, but yet you call that the best.

Let see how sony invest into there gamers

They make you pay to play with four players -*$30.00

Network Adapter $40.00(When it could have just came with the system)

Ps2 Stand $25.00 Slim ps2 $14.99(When it should have came with the system)

Hard Drive 40gb $100.00(When it could have came with the system and they force you to pay for a game you probably don't won't. The avg 40gb HD cost about $70, but after rebate its even cheaper than that.)

PS2 system $150.00(179.00 bundled Edition) Slim ps2( which is the same as the original) $150.00(You're just paying for a new design and oh I forgot that hard drive you just spent $100 on it doesn't supported.)

Games, Games! PS2 has a 6000 game library how many out of that number is triple A titles. We know the usual MGS,GTA,GT4,JAK,FF,Sly&Cooper,Tekken,Devil May Cry. Those are the most obvious ones that everyone look for and bring up. Majority of the lib is crap that sony let slide through based on quantity instead of qualtiy. Now take the avg consumer that goes in a store if you the xbox aisle and the ps2 aisle by each other and have that person choose. They most likely will go for the ones with the most games. You figure more games more choices.

PS2 Online!

Now out of all the money Sony has suck from you gamers. They could establish a data center, hired some employees and manage the online portion of that console. Yet they left it up to the developers which should be spending more time creating games then manging DLC,Lag,Updates,Patches etc. If sony would have took that out of the hands of the developers and took control of that part themselves then maybe the online service would be a whole lot better.

DezNutz
02-14-2005, 15:28
I disagree, I may give you the blue ray, but the Cell was designed specifically for the PS3, the blue ray is more like the DVD player in past PS2 (except Sony did not invent the DVD lol). Sure the...

cyrusmg
02-14-2005, 18:11
"Sony if nothing else, is a great company at figuring out what the consumer wants both with their TVs, digital camers, or in this case game consoles, and they work pretty good at deliver what we the consumers or gamers want."

i wouldn't say Sony is so great at GIVING US WHAT WE WANT. Id say they rae really good at giving us what we are willing to pay for. MS does not actually care about gamers. Sony does not actually care about gamers. The only way in which they car is the way in which we buy their product. They care that we like their product ebough to buy it. THAT is why games get made, cause it give people something they want to spend time doing.

Sony execs don't go home and loose sleep over the idea of "Gamers" not being completely satisfied, because as long as you bought their systema dna few games to play on it, they couldn't care less if you enjoy your system, at least not until they are about to release a new system, but then they will just remind you of all the great things you DID like this time. That way, they keep people who were initially upset at their console, coming back for more.

And i do agree with Siren that this is kind of a hail mary pass on Sony's side, but i think it is the perfect thing to do. They have been having trouble competeing with iPod and Dell, so it makes sense to build a network of devices that team up against these other companies, and to use the PS3 is the perfect way to seemlessly integrate it into the populous. Of course, i'm still conflicted as to whether i want my toaster talking to my TV.

Colonel Cortez
02-14-2005, 18:18
Shit M$ really put 5 billions in it, lol didnt help thougg did it. I see Deznutz point and i totally agrees, with him, and Siren you dont seem to pleasant against Sony...but i wont be asking questyons about that sorta thing. And i'd say Sony cares MORE about gamers than microsoft, they do more to please the crowd, i know of course that they are mainly in the buisness for the money, but i'd say Sony is the most Fan/public friendly gaming/multimedia company there is. They did sell the PS1 and 2 for a lower cost than it costed to make it. of course the hardware price went down later on and they started to make money on the console itself.....alot of money.

and speaking of money, Siren i doubt they would go bankrupt even if the PS3 failed, you are underestimating how much cash Sony is making, alright they arent Microsof
t, but they make a shit load of money, and as for the 300 million dollars on the cell they do have more than 300 millions dollars ya know. and Even if the SP3 fails, they are ganne use the CELL in so may other things that it wouldt be as big of a loss as if they were only using it in the PS3. Think of that. And microsoft are just in the game for one reason MONEy, of course i cant blame them. But it dont seem as they care as much as Sony or nintendo, Nintendd cares more, but they always just screw up so everybody just feels sorry for them.

james3579
02-14-2005, 19:32
both sides have good points, but over all i have to go with deznut. i think that sony does stuff for both us and themselves, its like a "you scratch my back ill scratch yours" relationship. with M$ it seems more like "you give us money and well see if we can get you something half decent"

those are my 2 cents

Thegamingdwarf
02-14-2005, 19:42
I sort of agree with james3579 but as most people know the big companies are in it for the money. They have the sort of relationship the james3579 mentioned but the ill scratch yours a little less than you have just scratched mine is maybe more prominent. Fortunately this sort of prodcer and consumer relationship is good because if sony doesnt put money in to create better things we dont get what we all love, gaming and sony dosent gets its money because we will stop bying it if it doesnt put money in to please us so then we by th... You see its a big loop. But sony can be slighty more relaxed about its consumer relations because it has the money to sustain itself if it dosent put money in(that last comment i made is really confusing, even me :shock: ).

james3579
02-14-2005, 21:11
*head explodes* i got the gist of it, i think thats enough :)

X2
02-14-2005, 22:04
Hey you guys need to quit it. You wouldn't know if you're taking it in the butt even if someone was shouting behind you trying to warn ya. <br />
<br />
The xbox is a console that was built by gamers. MS took a...

james3579
02-14-2005, 22:14
but it has 3 good games, if you have feature, you need good games, and thats where xbox fell short by miles

X2
02-14-2005, 22:18
You know it has more than three good games. If that the case where would sony be without gta

Kejun
02-14-2005, 22:36
Ok, do your research on Microsoft and Sony. You will find that microsoft started by Bill Gates buying Dos for $25 and adding some restrictions to it that force you to buy the next version when you get a better computer. Later Gates bought Windows off of a teenager for millions.... All those experienced programmers and he has to buy what will become his OS off of some kid and **** it up too.
Sony, tried launching Beta, didn't join forces with other companies, lost out to VHS which had taken in some "friends". Now Sony joins forces with as many companies as possible so that it's vastly superior technology will actually take off. Yes, I said vastly superior technology... The playstation had half the graphical capabilities of the 64 AND only 4mb of RAM, and yet it had the better graphics.
The PS2 had by far worse specs than the x-box and yet games like GT4 are giving it equal graphics to the x-box.

Sony is in it for the gamers, themselves, and to increase the technological level of humanity not through better physical stats, but better implementation of those stats.
Microsoft is in it for the gamers aswell, but mostly they are in it for money. Windows is by far one of the worst OS I have ever seen in my life, only reason I use it is because they have bought enough of the competition to have the most programs on it. Even if they don't own them, they still "own" them.

cyrusmg
02-14-2005, 22:47
The xbox is a console that was built by gamers. MS took a survey in which they went around to homes asking gamers what they wanted in a console (Built in network,HD, Online Service) wah la you have the xbox.

HA. and you think MS is the first, VISIONARY company to try asking people who are going to buy a product, what they want? EVERY single company does this, it is not some cool thing that MS cares so much about the gamers so they are going to ask what we want.

It seems to me that you are so busy loving everything about XBOX that you seem blind to the fact that they are a software company, who is trying to become a hardware company. Sony is a hardware company, and up until MS that was enough for hem to control the Console market.

Your love is blind, and your hate is even more blind. There is nothing i could say that would make you understand that such shortsighted adoration of ANYTHING can only result in that something hurting you, so go ahead and keep bad mouthing Sony. When MS decides they don't want to make consoles anymore cause Sony beat them badly, I hope you're pride forces you to never be able to buy another console.

EDIT: I know, I know, I'm sorry. Got a little carried away there. Nothing personal, just opinions.

DezNutz
02-14-2005, 22:49
Alright I don't have to read more then one line in your post to realize you are an idoit, x-box fanboy, who absolutley has no idea wtf you are talking about. <br />
<br />
source? <br />
<br />
What other game...

james3579
02-14-2005, 22:51
what exactly did MS so for the xbox hardware? uh direc... no, oh they made the proc... no, the RAM... wait, no. what did MS do!???

X2
02-14-2005, 23:13
So what about the companies MS is partnering with. ATI,TSMC,IBM,Tech14,SIS so that they vastly superior technology will take off. Yes I said vastly superior technology. Yes MS is a software company one of the best in the business if not the best that is partnering with some of the best hardware companies in the business. Software drives hardware and vice versa. I have np problem with sony and I do not hate them I am dissappoint in them. I use to play the ps2 until the xbox came along. Everybody have a right to there own opinion. I respect every gamer no matter what system they play, but I also like a good debate.

X2
02-14-2005, 23:33
* Xbox was the only platform to see year-to-year growth during Q4 as well as the full calendar year 2004, while the overall market was down year-to-year.
* Xbox market share for 2004 was an impressive 29.5 percent, increasing 7 points from the 2003 calendar year.
* Overall software sales for Xbox lead the way in 2004, growing units sales 44 percent during Q4 and 48 percent for the calendar year 2004.
* The Xbox Live online gaming service has surpassed more than 1.4 million members around the world, cementing its place as a leader in the digital entertainment landscape
* The launch of Halo 2 (6.4 million copies sold world-wide and counting) was a huge highlight for Xbox fans in 2004 – and there's no let up in 2005. Hotly anticipated titles like Forza Motorsport, Conker: Live and Reloaded, Jade Empire, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, and Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory are just some of the fantastic titles coming for Xbox in the first half of this year.

X2
02-14-2005, 23:37
MS have they hands into everything that's xbox. That means that the Xbox Advance Hardware team and the companies that they partner with custom built the xbox. MS plays a major role in the creation of there console. Plus is the software in it that allows the developer to utilizes the full potential of it with ease. With tricks like HDR and Normal Mapping.

Why do you need three gamertags. And please stop saying we pay monthly that if you one to other than that we pay $50 once a year. It's called a 1yr subscription.

DezNutz
02-14-2005, 23:39
Again, Micrsoft is partening with existing PC hardware companies to have them use their latest PC hardware technology and "adapt" that towards console gaming. Microsoft is not taking any risk here by developing their own hardware, they simpy rely on existing PC hardware companies to develop their technology and adapt that newest technology to the console market. This is a far different approach then Sony takes, developing it's own hardware from ground up with console gaming in mind from the start. This different approach ends up with superior hardware such as the cell processor, and takes more balls, money, time, then just signhning exisitng pc hardware companies and adapting there stuff.

You keep saying Microsoft is vastly superior software company, in their overall products I would agree, but in console gaming I would not. In console gaming there is really only one software that matters, and that is games. What games has microsoft developed for X-Box? I know sony makes their own games 989 sports ect.. and sighned exclusive rights for other top console game developers, but microsoft and specifically the x-box lacks in is top quality games. Anyone who is not blind fanboy has to know more top quality games that gamers want to play exist on the PS2 then on the X-Box. This is the software that matters in console gaming so get out of here with Microsoft being better software company, cause when it comes to console gaming, software is about the games, and the best games are on the PS2.

All I am saying in this post is that one company (Sony) has taken money they made off us gamers (PS1, & PS2) and re-invested that money into their next generation console via the cell chip, blue laser, ect.. They are putting our money to work for better development of new technology and applying that technology specifically for the game console market. Microsoft is not doing that, they are just dependant upon existing PC manufactures to devlop their technology to next level and adapting that to the console market.

The Chocobo Kid
02-14-2005, 23:47
All this M$ and sony talk make's me really think and say Poor Nintendo no one care about you at all,looks like Nintendo is going to my basement with the dreamcast and other sage friends :(

DezNutz
02-14-2005, 23:47
First off you don't quote a source for those numbers so there is no way to tell if those numbers are U.S. market only or Entire world market, but from just looking at the numbers, they look very much like U.S. market only numbers.



* The Xbox Live online gaming service has surpassed more than 1.4 million members around the world, cementing its place as a leader in the digital entertainment landscape

PS2 online has more then 3.5 million members. If X-Box is a "leader", I guess that makes PS2 the owner of online console gaming.


Hotly anticipated titles like Forza Motorsport, Conker: Live and Reloaded, Jade Empire, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, and Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory are just some of the fantastic titles coming for Xbox in the first half of this year.

The only game I would even want to play in that list is GTA, but since I already got in on PS2 and have been playing for months now, I don't want it again anyways. Never heard of the other games, I am guessing Splinter Cell is a PS2 also game, since the rest in the series are this way.

X2
02-14-2005, 23:51
MS is not adopting existing hardware from these companies and these companies are not going to give MS existing hardware and say here is the xbox2. We don't know what MS is doing hardware wise because officially nothing has been said. I do know that the xbox was use to set MS up for the next gen. So you saying sony didn't partner with exist pc companies(IBM,Toshiba). Believe me when I say this the next gen will come down to software and which system is more easier to take advantage of.

The Chocobo Kid
02-14-2005, 23:58
now lets not forget nVidia that is being built in the ps3

cyrusmg
02-15-2005, 00:12
Believe me when I say this the next gen will come down to software and which system is more easier to take advantage of.

Quite a change for an Xbox fanboy to be saying that, i rememeber when the XBOX came out and the only important thing was the graphics...

I agree with you on this point. That is the very reason i think this will be a war, but that is also the reason i think that Sony will win. They had better games with harder to program for hardware, so with this hardware, should be a cinch.

Case closed

Kejun
02-15-2005, 00:31
X2 wrote:
Believe me when I say this the next gen will come down to software and which system is more easier to take advantage of.


Quite a change for an Xbox fanboy to be saying that, i rememeber when the XBOX came out and the only important thing was the graphics...

I agree with you on this point. That is the very reason i think this will be a war, but that is also the reason i think that Sony will win. They had better games with harder to program for hardware, so with this hardware, should be a cinch.

Case closed

Yes it will come down to software. X-box's 10.5 Ghz will compute about the same speed as the Cell. So even battlefield there, except for Nintendo which has stated that they will not be having near the technical specs of the other systems. So it comes down to software, an area which the software giant of the world is too weak. I know, many people will not believe what I have just stated and will say things like "then why do they have so much money and have the most widely used OS?" My answer is this: they were in the business back when the business didn't even know it was a business. And then they marketed and marketed and marketed until people forgot there was a competition. Now they just own soo much from the past that they stay on top.
Sony has the edge in almost all areas. The only one that they don't is human "intelligence", they will see the 4+Ghz of the PS3, and the 10.5 of the X-Box 2 and think the X- Box2 has the advantage of speed.

X2
02-15-2005, 00:53
So now what you saying is sony trying to become an software company hahaha. Sony first party support is very, very weak. Majority of the good games that you have on ps2 are third party will be cross platform titles in the next gen. MS have been recruiting heavily for the xbox first party titles. 989sports is a joke. EA and GTA is what help the ps2 enough said

Rare
Digital Anvil
MGS.
And lot of employees came over from nintendo to work with MS.

You say sony has 3.5mil online where is the proof. If that the case it'll be all over the net.

Microsoft raises the ante for Xbox
Firm to invest $2 bln for online gaming, plans 200 titles
By Mariko Ando, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 8:10 AM ET May 21, 2002

The move is Microsoft's (MSFT: news, chart, profile) latest effort in an intense battle with Sony's PlayStation2 and Nintendo's GameCube over the lucrative video game industry. Its rivals have also announced plans for online gaming....

Microsoft Announces $2 Billion Investment In Xbox

Source: Seattle Post
URL:

LOS ANGELES -- Microsoft announced Monday it will invest $2 billion in its Xbox game console,

They used another 1billion to launch xbox live so if you added it that's 5billion

james3579
02-15-2005, 00:58
X2 wrote:
Believe me when I say this the next gen will come down to software and which system is more easier to take advantage of.


Quite a change for an Xbox fanboy to be saying that, i rememeber when the XBOX came out and the only important thing was the graphics...

I agree with you on this point. That is the very reason i think this will be a war, but that is also the reason i think that Sony will win. They had better games with harder to program for hardware, so with this hardware, should be a cinch.

Case closed

Yes it will come down to software. X-box's 10.5 Ghz will compute about the same speed as the Cell. So even battlefield there, except for Nintendo which has stated that they will not be having near the technical specs of the other systems. So it comes down to software, an area which the software giant of the world is too weak. I know, many people will not believe what I have just stated and will say things like "then why do they have so much money and have the most widely used OS?" My answer is this: they were in the business back when the business didn't even know it was a business. And then they marketed and marketed and marketed until people forgot there was a competition. Now they just own soo much from the past that they stay on top.
Sony has the edge in almost all areas. The only one that they don't is human "intelligence", they will see the 4+Ghz of the PS3, and the 10.5 of the X-Box 2 and think the X- Box2 has the advantage of speed.

its not 4+ghz its 4+ghz for each core, big difference, considering there will be multiple cores 4-16, worst case scenario, 16ghz, if it works how im thinking

Kejun
02-15-2005, 01:02
I don't think it will work like that, if it did Microsoft wouldn't be so optimistic about their next system.

james3579
02-15-2005, 01:15
sony did say cell would be 10x faster than the fastest pentium 4, i dunno, we just gotta wait to see for sure

Brandon
02-15-2005, 01:22
It will be at least that much faster concerning graphics/media tasks. It won't be that fast concerning every type of application. The CELL is designed for media, and I'm sure it'll do this VERY well.

X2
02-15-2005, 03:26
I wouldn't be so quick to put that 10.5ghz spec on the xbox2. I look at the leak specs as rumors. Until something official comes from MS as far as the hardware goes then we will know. The only thing though MS has been real secretive about the system even to the point of its existence. All I know is that they are doing something that will sneak up on the industry. Even people from IBM haven't said anything. They main focus has been on the cell. ATI had a patent release where they were talking about supercomputer core and regular chip core running on the same chip or something like that. I can't wait until E3. The next gen is the gen of the gamers because that is who it is going to benefit the most.

Brandon
02-15-2005, 03:31
its not 4+ghz its 4+ghz for each core, big difference, considering there will be multiple cores 4-16, worst case scenario, 16ghz, if it works how im thinking
The GHz clock rate stays exactly the same with multiple cores; it doesn't change. This applies to the PS3, Xbox 2, PC, etc.. So that doesn't really matter. Xbox 2 is not going to be 10.5 GHz no matter how you look at it. Also, GHz doesn't really have much of an affect on overall system performance (when comparing 2 different system architectures). The CELL has even been clocked at over 5 GHz with higher voltage.

james3579
02-15-2005, 04:27
so what exatly would altering the number of cores do for the speed of it, im confused

Brandon
02-15-2005, 04:32
Don't even look at GHz to be representative of a processor's speed anymore. It will save you from much confusion. Throw that idea out the window. Multiple cores will dramatically increase the floating point performance, as well as various other elements of the processor(s). Apple has been using multi-core architecture for years for increased performance (and their Dual 2.5 GHz processor still only runs at 2.5 GHz). This technology is nothing new.

james3579
02-15-2005, 04:34
oh, that clears things up alot, i still have unanswered questions, but that helps. but speaking of that dual 2.5ghz, the cell is similar to that, each cell being 4.0ghz or w/e, regardless of total CPU speed, something like that?

Brandon
02-15-2005, 04:40
Yeah the clock speed remains the same for the entire processor. One of the slides from the CELL presentation shows increased clock rates with higer voltage/power usage. So the clock speed can vary depending on how hard the processor is working. If they use the 65nm chips, then there'll be less power consumption, and possibly higher clock speeds at lower temperatures.

james3579
02-15-2005, 04:42
yes! i figured it out! thaks for bareing with me. i like the way sony are makeing this cell, with the whole voltage thing

Captain-nippon
02-15-2005, 07:37
Let me see, PS 2 reached 75 millions units. X fart about 15 millions united. halo 2 is the only game for X fart to reach over 5 millions copies. PS 2 Have over 100 titles that reached over 5 copies.

X fart design is too big to fit in my closet. PS 2 is small enough to fit in my wallet.

PS 3 have blue Ray and Cell, X frat 2 still use standard DVD format.

Sony Also have PSP, which sold 1 million unit.

Sony is 10 times bigger than MS.

Brandon
02-15-2005, 07:48
Please don't make posts like that. Leave your fanboy opinions elsewhere and contribute something useful. It would be much appreciated...


X fart about 15 millions united.
Xbox is actually selling past the 20 million mark right now.


halo 2 is the only game for X fart to reach over 5 millions copies.
Actually, it's the fastest selling game of ALL time. That doesn't make it the greatest game ever, though.


PS 2 is small enough to fit in my wallet.
The PS2 slim is bigger than a DVD case, so no...it can't fit into your wallet, unless your wallet is a purse. Plus it's a new design with the entire hard drive bay removed, so of course it's going to be considerably smaller. The Xbox remains as is, so there's no point in comparing the two.


PS 3 have blue Ray and Cell, X frat 2 still use standard DVD format.
The "Xbox 2" using the standard DVD format wouldn't be the end of the world for Microsoft.


Sony Also have PSP, which sold 1 million unit.
Microsoft doesn't even have a handheld system, so that point is invalid.


PS 2 Have over 100 titles that reached over 5 copies.
Source? And there are quite a few games that sell millions of copies, but it usually takes years to accomplish this.


Sony is 10 times bigger than MS.
Microsoft is new to the console market and did amazingly well, IMO. They've matched Nintendo in terms of console sales. It's just that Sony is owning the market right now, but that will most likely change come next-gen.

X2
02-15-2005, 10:05
Have anybody ever thought about this?

Just something to put out there.

Nintendo DS will have no connectivity to Nintendo's next gen system. So my guess is that DS is standalone handheld. Nintendo also said that they were working on an next gen handheld system as well. Now with the psp about to make it's debut in the US. I guessing it will be awhile before sony makes another system, being that the psp suppose to link to the ps3 over wireless.

My question is. Could sony real competition for the psp be Nintendo's next gen handheld and not the DS?

Captain-nippon
02-15-2005, 10:12
Xbox is actually selling past the 20 million mark right now.

What, how many? That's even behind GameCube.


Actually, it's the fastest selling game of ALL time. That doesn't make it the greatest game ever, though.

So why is it in the # 2 spot in 2004? yeah, the 5 millions mark is a dead end.


The "Xbox 2" using the standard DVD format wouldn't be the end of the world for Microsoft.

So MS is using Sony technology than, Blu Ray? the people at MS can't come up the their owe technology? Now you know why X Fart 2 really don't have a chance.


The PS2 slim is bigger than a DVD case, so no...it can't fit into your wallet, unless your wallet is a purse. Plus it's a new design with the entire hard drive bay removed, so of course it's going to be considerably smaller. The Xbox remains as is, so there's no point in comparing the two.

There is a point, PS 2 is superior to X fart. PS 2 was smaller before and even smaller after.


Microsoft is new to the console market and did amazingly well, IMO. They've matched Nintendo in terms of console sales. It's just that Sony is owning the market right now, but that will most likely change come next-gen.

Losing billions of dollar is what you call DOING WELL, interesting. Sony was new 10 years ago, and took the # 1 from Nintendo within 3 years.

The next Console wars will the the last MS venture in the Games BuZZZZ.

X2
02-15-2005, 10:23
Also this is one of the companies that partnered with ATI and MS. Fast14 tech.

Fast14® Technology
Design Technology · Design Automation · Design Services

Intrinsity is a design technology company that has developed a high-performance, area-efficient, and low-power CMOS digital design solution known as Fast14 Technology. Intrinsity is focused on solving today's complex design challenges by licensing Fast14 Technology and the Intrinsity Design Automation Platform to market-leading semiconductor companies, and supporting them with expert Design Services to ensure their success. The three primary benefits of Fast14 Technology are:


Higher Performance
CMOS process improvements no longer yield dramatic performance increases. Fast14 Technology has achieved multi-GHz performance in processes ranging from 180nm to 130nm. Performance of 400 MHz to 4 GHz is achievable with Fast14 Technology at 90nm and 65nm without requiring exotic processing techniques.


Lower Die Cost
As process improvements offer diminishing returns, entire classes of products have resorted to parallel processing to stay competitive. Fast14 Technology reduces area by replacing numerous parallel processing elements with single elements operating at much higher frequencies.


Lower Power
Beyond 300 MHz, traditional design methods rapidly lose power efficiency due to higher voltages and larger transistors. Each CMOS process generation compounds leakage problems by an order of magnitude. Fast14 Technology reduces leakage through transistor efficiency and lower voltage while enabling multi Ghz performance.

http://www.intrinsity.com/technology/chip.jpg

Proven in silicon, Fast14 Technology is a unique design technology based on a new logic family (NDL®) that delivers substantial performance, area, and power advantages over conventional CMOS design approaches. Deriving its name from the atomic number of silicon, Fast14 Technology literally translates to mean Fast Silicon Technology. Fast14 Technology does not require exotic manufacturing processes, and the benefits become more pronounced as geometries migrate below 150nm. The fundamental design elements of Fast14 Technology include:


1-of-N Dynamic Logic (NDL® family)
A patented high-performance and low-power dynamic logic family


Multi-phase Overlapped Clocking
A predictable, low-risk way to create manufacturable dynamic logic


Expert Routing Technology™
Automatically solves signal integrity, electomigration, and IR drop challenges


Unified Design Database
Standards-based logical/physical data modeling for efficient design automation


Design Methodology
Logical, physical, timing, and signal integrity integration for optimal DFT/DFM

Captain-nippon
02-15-2005, 10:34
Meanwhile, the Blu-ray Disc Association wasn't silent. Although no movies were announced, Disney reiterated its support for Blu-ray. And with the announcement of gaming giant Electronic Arts' commitment to Blu-Ray, the Association cemented that format's future as the disc of choice for console games. Factor in Sony's backing of Blu-ray and the company's announced plans to support Blu-ray in its future PlayStation gaming consoles--and suddenly Blu-ray looks like it has the gaming market niche sealed up. No matter which way Hollywood goes, Blu-ray will exist, in this scenario.

Microsoft has already thrown its weight behind HD-DVD for the next-generation Xbox (news - web sites). However, recent rumors on the Web suggest that Microsoft will support only standard DVD in the Xbox 2. If true, that would certainly tip the scales in Blu-ray's favor as the next-gen platform for gaming.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1093&ncid=738&e=7&u=/pcworld/20050215/tc_pcworld/119665


Now we all know X fart 2 is DOOMED.

james3579
02-15-2005, 15:42
to halo 2 selling the most, im pretty sure GTA:SA has sold more, ill look for comfirmation

X2
02-15-2005, 15:50
Microsoft has already thrown its weight behind HD-DVD for the next-generation Xbox (news - web sites). However, recent rumors on the Web suggest that Microsoft will support only standard DVD in the Xbox 2. If true, that would certainly tip the scales in Blu-ray's favor as the next-gen platform for gaming.


Now we all know X fart 2 is DOOMED.

Not actually. Using the standard dvd could keep the cost of games and development low.

DezNutz
02-15-2005, 16:09
Wow this topic has gone a little off-topic again thanks to x-box fanboy making everything about him and their system.



Not actually. Using the standard dvd could keep the cost of games and development low.

Retarded. A. Blue-ray readers can still read regular DVD's as well as CD's. So if game developers wanted to make it in this format they could. B. How much more do you really think it cost to produce a blue ray disk, then a dvd, or even cd? The main reason for going to disk format (CD, DVD) is to save money on physical hardware cost, becuase it cost miniumual to produce one of these as opposed to cartridge based games.

Bottom line still for this post and this topic, Sony has put time/money into development of hardware and infrastructure to produce that hardware for next generation console, that no other console company is doing (including x-box). Still makes me feel better that some of my money going into Sony is being used to develop new better technology that will be used in next generation system.

mckmas8808
02-15-2005, 16:25
Why do people still say that Xbox2 adopting Dual layered DVD is ok. I don't freakin get it. All of us are smart guys and girls right? The key words in next generation videogame systems is NEXT GENERATION. Dual layered dvds are not next generation. I would feel better if they went with HD-Dvd at least it would say that they're trying to be better. If they choose dual-layered dvds they will lose easy.

Colonel Cortez
02-15-2005, 17:29
well X2 that was not a very good example of games, Firstly about 3/4's of thoose games are on PC too. pariah is coming for PS2(dont argue i know it is -----=http://ps2.ign.com/objects/683/683103.html?ui=gamefinder=-------))
And t5her are only Two games there worth bying , Conker wich rules, going to buy it myself. And first to fight.....wich also is a PS2 game.....sheez that might be the worst example list i have ever seen, not be rude to you, but most people would pick out more than 6 x box only titles, and 4 of thoose titles are destined to come for PC too..... And GTA:SA has sold more than Halo 2 as far as i know, Halo 2 sold ALOT in th beginning because of the popularity, now there arent as many because it was one of the biggest disapointments, IGN gave halo 2 the "Biggest dissapointment" prize. That was the IGN list not the list where eveyone could vote.

cyrusmg
02-15-2005, 18:55
This seems to have become a rambling culmination of all the other threads put together...so here's an attempt to steer it back

To be fair with the money, every company puts some of their earnings into progressing thier thech, their stock, what ever they have to make better. For Sony, if they just kept coming out with bare revised versions of old products every year instead of making new one, they would be dead in the water, cause someone with venure capital would take their idea and revolutionize it, making millions.

All companies need to reinvest at least a little of it towards progress, ro they will quickly be taken over by somone with the money to do something brilliant.

DezNutz
02-15-2005, 19:06
All companies need to reinvest at least a little of it towards progress, ro they will quickly be taken over by somone with the money to do something brilliant.

Agreed. I think the point I was trying to make, is that the amount of money re-invested can and does differ from company to company. Also where the money is re-invested differs greatly, where as it seems Sony spends more on devlopment and production of new technology specifically by them for the next generation consoles, more so then other console manufacturers. They seem to put alot of money and time into creating new technology (both logically and physically) to make new generations of gameplay possible.

The_One
02-15-2005, 19:43
Sony has the edge in almost all areas. The only one that they don't is human "intelligence", they will see the 4+Ghz of the PS3, and the 10.5 of the X-Box 2 and think the X- Box2 has the advantage of speed.

BWAHAHAHAHA. I gotta laught at THAT.
3 CPUs, dual core (technically, it's only 2 way SMT), 3.5 Ghz = 3.5Ghz. However, if you knew half as much as what the IBM CPU desinger knew, it'd be that you most likely won't get 3 CPU's. Why? Heat and power consumption. Look it up yourself, I'm tired of constantly giving the same argument the same answer.

its not 4+ghz its 4+ghz for each core, big difference, considering there will be multiple cores 4-16, worst case scenario, 16ghz, if it works how im thinking

Okay, let me make this clear, once and for all. Hertz do NOT accumulate. Thank you.

Let me see, PS 2 reached 75 millions units. X fart about 15 millions united. halo 2 is the only game for X fart to reach over 5 millions copies. PS 2 Have over 100 titles that reached over 5 copies.

Wrong wrong wrong. XBox will reach 22 million units sold by the end of this Fiscal year (sometime around June/July), and PS2 sales would reach 85 million by the end of March.

If they fail or the PS3 were to fail, they so much in debt they could actually go bankrupt.

I'm not sure how much they're in debt, but you do have a point, their yearly earnings are only ~800 million. While revenues are a few billion.

Brandon
02-15-2005, 20:50
This entire thread is getting ridiculous with people posting nothing but false information based on biased opinions. And I think the Hz arguement has been talked about 12 thousand times, but people still don't seem to get it. :? And yes, Hz doesn't accumulate with multiple cores...it remains as is. Please stop referring to the Xbox as "Xfart"...grow up.

james3579
02-15-2005, 20:53
um, the_one, PBM cleared that up for me, you dont need to a second time, now back on topic!

Captain-nippon
02-15-2005, 21:03
I'm not sure how much they're in debt, but you do have a point, their yearly earnings are only ~800 million. While revenues are a few billion.

what???? Where did this come from? Sony had revenue of $22 billions from last quarter, net profit was $1.2 billions, ended dec 31/04. Sony Revenue from last years was $72 billions and net profits was $1.7 billions.......

Sony revenue is 3 times the size of MS.

Brandon
02-15-2005, 21:04
Please post links to your claims.

Captain-nippon
02-16-2005, 08:58
You might not LIKE the TRUE. But the True is alway the True. PS 2 Sold 85 millions units. Now that's the hard COLD TRUE.

All you have to do is go the sony site and download the PDF file on sony annual report. The CEO of sony corp is Idie Nobuyuki.

and yes MS revenue from last years was only $35 billions compared to Sony 72 billions. And yes sony is 10 time bigger. Sony have 250 thousand employees VS MS 40 thousand.

siren
02-16-2005, 09:09
Ok, sorry I dissappeared for a little while. Work is pretty busy lately. <br />
<br />
So I am going to ramble and try to cover several points called out in this thread and make some comments with my...

X2
02-16-2005, 09:41
This is another reason why sony is in debt. Also that just got another lawsuit for the force feedback technology that in there controllers. They owe the company that holds the patent 82 Million. Not mention the company also receives royalties on ever system sold from the ps1-ps2.

And here's another reason. (I posted this in another thread, but it's more useful here. Sorry!)

Sony sued over PS2 chip
Published: October 27, 2003, 2:23 PM PST
By David Becker
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
TrackBack Print E-mail TalkBack

Electronics giants Sony and Toshiba have been sued in a patent dispute that involves the main chip Sony's PlayStation 2 video game console uses.

A representative for the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (WARF), the group that administers patents researchers at the University of Wisconsin obtain, said it filed the suit last week in U.S. District Court in Madison.

Although it did not immediately give details about the specific patent involved, the group said the dispute is based on the "Emotion Engine," the custom chip that's designed and manufactured in a joint effort between Sony and Toshiba.

The patent covers advanced chipmaking technologies and has been licensed by a number of technology companies, according to the WARF representative, who said Sony and Toshiba have so far declined to obtain a license. "We hope the lawsuit will encourage them to bargain in good faith," the representative said.

Sony has sold more than 60 million units of the PlayStation 2 worldwide, giving the company a broad lead in the video game hardware market.

Unlike competitor Microsoft, which used off-the-shelf Intel chips for its Xbox game machine, Sony has designed and built its own chips. The electronics giant is in the midst of a joint effort with Toshiba and IBM to create the "Cell" processor, seen as the most likely candidate to power the next version of the PlayStation.

PS2's Emotion Engine infringes 17 year old patent, claims University

The University of Wisconsin Madison has filed a suit against Sony and Toshiba, claiming that technology being used in the creation of the PS2's Emotion Engine infringes a patent which was filed by the university in 1986.

Little information about the lawsuit or the patent it deals with is available at the moment, although we do know that the University is seeking damages and a halt to the use of the technology in question.

The PlayStation 2 is based on a MIPS processing core with custom extensions added to it to improve the efficiency of the console. This unit is known as the "EE Core" - while Emotion Engine is a term used to describe this component and several others which are integrated onto a single chip and form the heart of the console's processing power.

Toshiba had a hand in designing this component for Sony, and was originally involved in manufacturing the chips as well. It's thought that the lawsuit centres on the manufacturing process involved in creating Emotion Engine devices, not any technology on board the chip itself, and as such both Sony and Toshiba are targetted by the suit.

DezNutz
02-16-2005, 16:11
So I ask this question, which would you rather have a company invest Billions into?

Hardware
Software This again is a short sided question. Microsoft is not spending billions in devloping their own games, like you are suggesting. I am amking the argument of devlopers (like EA or any other game devloper) will be able to create better games on better hardware, rather then better software. Good developers can always develop better games on better hardware then they could with easy bake oven devloping software on limited hardware.


Just because Microsoft is not spending their Billions on fab plants and some cool new chip does not mean that they aren't investing Billions into the console. They are just doing it in software.
My point exactly, Microsoft is not taking the risk of devloping new hardware directley, nor is anyone else, besides Sony for the console market. Again if Microsoft is betting to beat hardware with software they have already lost.


The US is the largest gaming territory. More games are made and produced in the US than any other territory (including Japan). They have not reached the saturation point in the US yet and were outsold over the holiday season by a competitor. This is far from "owning" the market. What is your source for them not reaching your "saturation" point in the U.S.? You are relating one genertaion towards another? I am guessing you are relying on the difference between PS1 & PS2 in U.S. only market? Did you ever think (i hope you thought this but just don't let everyone else know again cause it is not in favor of your system and your point) that there was no X-Box competitor in U.S. on PS1 generation? There has always been Nintendo (N64, gamecube), but on PS1 generation there was not other competitive system in the U.S. or any other market. Dreamcast died very soon in system wars, and there was a larger void that the PS1 was able to pick up. Now those gamers have spread across the board using X-Box, and PS2, most gamers do not own 2 systems, so X-Box being released ate up some of the gamer pool, and for PS2 to outsell PS1 in world market with more competitve consoles on the market, it is OWNING the market.

Using your own stats:
PS2 - 83 Million
Xbox - 20.5 Million

4 times the market share = Owned IMO.


Yet this generation, they started out by outselling the xbox 4:1 in the US. In just 3 years the Xbox has decreased that to an even score 1:1 on the year and outselling the PS2 for the 3 biggest months of the year. Wow so at X-Box's peak, after the release of thier best (and only game series IMO) game, Halo2, they where able to even sell with the PS2 in one market? If that is the biggest win, then I must say ouch. How did they do in Europe, or Japan, or the entire market?


Yea, the PS2 has more gamers that can go online out there. How many of them do often? How many unique users are there (not just ones that created 3 user names in socom)

I already answered your question in another thread, but I can answer it again since you seem to have missed it. "SOCOM II has 33,000 to 36,000 simultaneous players during peak time and 90,000 to over 100,000 unique players log in to play SOCOM II everyday. " You can track unique users on socom very easily, and they do, again this is more then Halo2, or in some months all X-Box live users combined.


Also, are Sony's online games worth paying for? How much do you think Sony is going to improve their "free" service if no one is paying? Well we have gotten 2 patches on SocomII, 3 downloadable maps, not to mention all the free tournaments with prizes you could enter, as well as keyboard support in all lobbies (something not existent on X-Box), and oh yeah I paid nothing for all that, is was FREE.


The whole thing trying to prove Sony is in finacial trouble is somewhat funny if nothing else. People already posted that Sony is still turning a profit, and any major company takes loans and owes people money, but that does not determine their stock, or profit margin. They are still turning a large profit, and this is in a devloping time (spending large amounts of money into devloping PS3, PSP). You, yourself so Sony is already guaranted what 30 million PS3 units sold? Well anyways they are guaranted to be in the next generation market, and will continue to make money, that is why they are able to get loans and owe people money.

X2 - All I got to say is so are you saying nobody ever sued Microsoft? Be careful here, you may want to check your resources before you answer. Any large company will get sued from time to time, and I remeber Microsoft losing a large suit in Europe I believe not to long ago, for alot more money then the one you posted.

PocketAces
02-16-2005, 17:06
I can never help holding back my laughter when I hear a person online talking about how they know what a company is going to do, or why a company is behaving the way it's behaving... Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo... all these companies exsist because of an underlying desire to make money and control more of a given market.

Sony, who I'll be quite honest is a company that I closely follow because of an overall superior quality in product design, designed the Playstation at a time when videogaming was a niche market. When people start quoting how XBox 2 is going to revolutionize the gaming market, please keep in mind that Sony did that... twice...
Noone I have asked has ever been able to remember where they were the first time they saw an XBox running on a TV, but I'll bet if you ask ten of your friends where they were the first time they saw a PS2, they'd be able to tell you, and probably tell you the game too. (Madden)

Microsoft has a strong hold on the gaming market right now because of Halo, I'm sure I'll recieve a hundred posts denying that fact with 100 different reasons that "Microsoft Rules", but it's an undeniable fact that Halo is the major contributor for people multiplayer gaming, similar to Goldeneye for the Nintendo 64, except microsoft has the advantage of online gaming, and an older gaming comunity with access to things like more then one TV/Console.

I heard people in this forum (X2) talking about how many killer apps the XBox has, and after reading his list of PC Ports and Games that Were Out on PS2 a year earlier... I'm still not convinced that the XBox has enough AAA Titles to really hold it's own in a console war. which is one of the many reasons the PS2 has such a larger portion of the market.

I'm actually the first person to admit that I have a great time playing Halo/Halo 2 with my friends at our big lan parties. But I used to have the same amount of fun when we would disassemble our PC's, drag them to a friends house and battle it out in Quake II, (Better game by the way)
The difference now is that I only have to bring my little black XBox and a few controllers to enjoy the day.

Now, humor me if you will, let's just say that Sony or Nintendo manage to come up with a multiplayer title which gamers take to like they did Halo, how long do you think it would take before fanboys would jump ship and start ranting about how that company is going to revolutionize multiplayer gaming in the future?

I doesn't matter what gamers think they want, because if you had asked someone who was playing the PS1 when it first came out what they wanted in the PS2, they wouldn't have been able to tell you... because they didn't know themselves what they wanted. EVERYONE wants the best of the best of everything, unfortunatly, they want it for under 200$, sooooo, before you run your mouth about how you could design a better system with your eye's closed by throwing information about technology that is on the consumer market, stop, close your mouth, throw your keyboard out the window, and go play Halo, or GTA, or any of the other thousands of games that make the gaming market what it is today, and save yourself the agony of arguing your point for a month.

You don't know *expletive deleted* about Cell, you don't know anything about Blu-Ray, you have no idea what "Revolution" is going to involve, and you can't imagine XBox 2... because the companies only release what they want you to know. So sit back and enjoy the ride until you're head of product development for Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo, and actually do make the decisions you argue about.

Enough ranting. I'm buying a PS3 when it comes out for High Def DVD Playback and because the PS2 is still the best gaming architecture design out there. I might get an XBox 2 depending on if they have any good exclusive games. Nintendo, for god sakes get a strangle hold on Resident Evil, because it's the only current reason I have a Gamecube....

Peace and Love people...
It's all about the games.

cyrusmg
02-16-2005, 18:16
An old school gamer with a coherent great first post. I don't agree with you about everything, but your exceptionally lucid and well thought out post makes one very important point that i think goes with this topic perfectly,


what a company is going to do, or why a company is behaving the way it's behaving... Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo... all these companies exsist because of an underlying desire to make money and control more of a given market.

that is what the point boils down to here. The cliche "you have to spend money to make money" fits perfectly here. I would argue that it doesn't particularly matter whether money gets invested in the product itself, or services that make the product easy to use (of course, we will see if one of the consoles fails horribly) it just boils down to specialization.

MS is good at software, so they sink their money into making sure that software will be incredible, whereas Sony is great at hardware, so they make a new kind of hardware to try and give them a high starting place for developers.

We are going to have to wait and see which one works out best and the proof will be in which console has better games at the end of its life. THEN, we will know.

Smily0012
02-16-2005, 20:38
PocketAces you said exactly wat i said in one of the post, there is no way that we can tell how any system is going to perform in the future, expecially ps3 for the simple reason that they havent given us specific information. Look at the information that they gave on the cell, they just stated some Assumptions we already had of the power it has. They dont want to give any ideas to their competition of how good the cell especially to intel who is trying to make something similar to the cell. theyre going to drop of all the details in the last seconds just before the systum launches.

james3579
02-16-2005, 20:41
they probably will smily, but in that time they can make it better :twisted: :lol:

X2
02-16-2005, 21:30
Xbox Surpasses Five Million Consoles Milestone In Europe
By: César A. Berardini - "Cesar"
Jan. 28th, 2005 8:11 am
Xbox announced today that it has smashed through an important milestone in Europe, selling five million consoles since the European launch in March 2002. Second-quarter financial results announced by Microsoft show that Xbox has sold 5.0 million consoles life-to-date in Europe up to 31st December 2004.

A steady stream of fantastic-value offers at retail throughout the year, the limited edition Crystal Console, Xbox Live consistently setting new standards for online gaming and blockbuster titles like Halo 2, Fable and FIFA Football 2005 made Xbox an irresistible choice for gamers in Europe.

Through the December quarter, Xbox sold 19.9 million consoles worldwide since launch – 13.2 million consoles in North America, 5.0 million consoles in Europe, and 1.7 million consoles in the Japan and Asia Pacific region.


As previously announced, 2004 was a great year for Xbox in Europe:

* Xbox was the only platform to see year-to-year growth during Q4 as well as the full calendar year 2004, while the overall market was down year-to-year.
* Xbox market share for 2004 was an impressive 29.5 percent, increasing 7 points from the 2003 calendar year.
* Overall software sales for Xbox lead the way in 2004, growing units sales 44 percent during Q4 and 48 percent for the calendar year 2004.
* The Xbox Live online gaming service has surpassed more than 1.4 million members around the world, cementing its place as a leader in the digital entertainment landscape
* The launch of Halo 2 (6.4 million copies sold world-wide and counting) was a huge highlight for Xbox fans in 2004 – and there's no let up in 2005. Hotly anticipated titles like Forza Motorsport, Conker: Live and Reloaded, Jade Empire, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, and Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory are just some of the fantastic titles coming for Xbox in the first half of this year.


"The five million console milestone is a major one, and proves that our strategy of offering consumers exactly what they wanted is the right one," said Neil Thompson, Director of UK home and entertainment division. "We are looking forward to seeing our strong position in the market going from strength to strength, and we're right on track to hit our worldwide shipment goal of 21-22 million units by the end of June 2005. Xbox offers more power than any other console on the market, a killer games portfolio including the already-classic Halo 2, and broadband built in from launch for instant online gaming with Xbox Live - an irresistible proposition. The choice gamers had to make at Christmas was a tough one but the numbers show that Xbox was the first choice for a significant number of people."

DezNutz
02-16-2005, 22:10
Why do you continue to post pro x-box news items in strings that have nothing to do with the news item you are listing? I have been let known not to use "fanboy", but what do you call someone who copies and post pro whatever system news items in threads that have nothing to do with it? Maybe mis-guided spammer, i guess.

What does X-Box hitting 5 million units in Europe have to do with Sony putting money into next generation technology building? Yes we know X-Box has almost 20 million units, woopy!, PS2 has over 80 million. Thanks for non-related copy and past post.

Brandon
02-16-2005, 22:20
Why do you continue to post pro x-box news items in strings that have nothing to do with the news item you are listing? I have been let known not to use "fanboy", but what do you call someone who copies and post pro whatever system news items in threads that have nothing to do with it? Maybe mis-guided spammer, i guess.

What does X-Box hitting 5 million units in Europe have to do with Sony putting money into next generation technology building? Yes we know X-Box has almost 20 million units, woopy!, PS2 has over 80 million. Thanks for non-related copy and past post.
Yes X2, please stop doing that. It's getting old fast.

X2
02-16-2005, 23:06
How did they do in Europe, or Japan, or the entire market?

I remeber you asking this question about the xbox.

siren
02-16-2005, 23:10
I think he was doing it in response to Dez's claiming that Xbox hadn't sold 20+ Million units, either way...

Here is a link for Dez to confim that Halo2 has more users online than Socom II

Halo 2 - Xbox Live Statistics
(last 24 hrs)

Unique Players: 417,557

Matches Logged: 815,998

Players Online: 84,745

http://www.bungie.net/stats

Keep in mind that this was taken at roughly 1:45pm PST 4:45pm EST when most kids are still in school in the US and during the middle of the week. Basically, Off Peak Time. Compare this to what you posted.


I already answered your question in another thread, but I can answer it again since you seem to have missed it. "SOCOM II has 33,000 to 36,000 simultaneous players during peak time and 90,000 to over 100,000 unique players log in to play SOCOM II everyday. " You can track unique users on socom very easily, and they do, again this is more then Halo2, or in some months all X-Box live users combined.


84,745 > 36,000
417,557 > 100,000

Back more on topic

Actually, Sony and Microsoft are taking about equivelent risk with their money invested.

Sony - If they failed to sell the PS3 in the quantities they want, upwards of 80 Million in 5 years, they will still be using the Cell chip in just about every piece of consumer electronics they produce over the 5 year period. Thus, this will reduce their cost of producing Consumer devices and they are still guarenteed some payoff.

Microsoft - If the Xbox2 does not gain any steam from the additional tools and software they are developing for it, then they still benefit some some of the debugging improvements, development improvements, UI developments, XNA, ect... as this transfer into the PC space.

In some ways I would argue that Microsoft's investment of 3 Billion into Xbox2 was more of a risky manuver than Sony's. Worst case for Sony, they still have Machines, plants, land, chips, ect... that are tangible that they can sell to recupe some of the losses. Worst case for Microsoft, they have some nice development and other software which they still have to get people to buy.

Investing Billions in anything is a risk. Investing Billions, whether in Hardware or Software, does benefit gamers. You state that great developers will be able to get more out of the better hardware. That I do not argue. But, you have obviously not worked in the software industry. Great Developers are few and far between. On top of this fact, most of them don't work on video games. Most of them work on Databases. Kernels, Security Systems, Drivers, Compilers, things like .Net and Java architectures, ect... Maybe the top 1% of game companies might be able to get one master developer who knows how to develop for best performance for a game across a complex multi processor architecture. Said person must also be able to optimize an entire game engine for this architecture in approximately 6 - 12 months. Most game companies as a result will just use the basics. If you throw them a 4 Proc machine with no tools to help reduce the development time, then they will at most use 2 of the 4 even remotely efficently.

Captain-nippon
02-16-2005, 23:33
It's no big deal. every company is in debt one way or the other. It's business. Hell, the United States have an 7 trillions DEBT, that's like a 1000 times more than Sony. Just look at Time Warners, they're in debt like 60 billions, they also posted a net loss of 50 billions a few years back. They're still around and click strong as ever. When did sony ever posted a net loss of 50 billions, or even 10 billions? NEVER.

it kinda funny how you guys think Sony would be in trouble if the PS 3 fail. it's a navie or a fantasy to think that PS 3 would fail. with 85 millions units of the 2nd Gen. console sold, it pretty much a success story. you would think that people with PS 2 would want to continue to support PS Brand, afterall, there's about 85 millions home with a PS Brand.


Any new gaming generation isn't just about Graphics. Yea, they are a big deal, but as Xbox proved, graphics won't win it alone. It's about the games and I would argue the gaming experience.

I agree. So what the reason why X box is in second? Maybe because they don't know how to make good games. Afterall, Halo 2 was the only game that sold over 5 millions. The ONLY GAME. How many games of PS 2 sold over 5 millions? Final Fantasy, GTA, Metal Gear Solid, Dragon Quest and many other.


Yet on Xbox they have released improvements almost every 6 months. Not just for the gamers directly and their games, but also for developers. They have made it easier and easier to make live enabled games.

That's only because the can't beat Sony on the console wars, so they go the other way. The online way.


Also, are Sony's online games worth paying for? How much do you think Sony is going to improve their "free" service if no one is paying?

EVER QUEST. So tell me, does MS have any game that on the ever quest level? probably NOT.

Final_fantasy
02-16-2005, 23:58
not to be an insult, but $3 billion to bill gates is toilet paper. sure gates can invest billions to a console alone, but sony invest a sum that I myself cannot sum,(which is probobly smaller, I dont know) and they are putting that research into countless products as stated earlier. not to sound too fanboyish but what else is bill gates puttin into other products from his companies research other than the X2? so far I havnt heard anything. ps2 online is something I cant have kuz my dad don't understand it :( (or like it (he's old fashioned) which makes me sad.)

(sorry I was writing my post before I saw the last post. I am Very formal) :mrgreen:

Cody
02-17-2005, 01:56
Longhorn, microsoft is probably investing more into that then they are Xbox 2

Brandon
02-17-2005, 02:07
not to be an insult, but $3 billion to bill gates is toilet paper.
Not really. 3 billion dollars is 3 billion dollars. I remember the look on Bill Gates' face watching the news when he lost $8 billion in stock...it was pure terror. ;) 3 billion dollars is a lot no matter how you look at it.

james3579
02-17-2005, 02:17
its only alot to him cuz hes a cheap-skate :wink:

Captain-nippon
02-17-2005, 02:55
not to be an insult, but $3 billion to bill gates is toilet paper.

I disagree. Money is money, regardless of the amount. For me, I made about $45,000 a year. it's not a lot, but it's something.

First, Gates doesn't have 3 billions CASH in a bank. Most of his asset is in MS stocks. Second, Gates would NEVER, EVER put in personal money on MS.

As for MS itself, they're really have about 7 businesses. sony on the other hand have hundreds of businesses. Movies, Music, Television, Animations. electronics-TV. DVD. VCR, Camera. Phone. ect.

Sony also have asset of like a 100 billions. I am pretty sure, Sony Pictures is worth 15 billions.

PS 1 and PS 2 didn't fail, why the HECK Would PS 3 Fail?

james3579
02-17-2005, 03:46
PS3 failing is like longhorn (what a horrible name) failing. both companies are masters at what they do

MiThRaZoR
02-17-2005, 04:24
PS 1 and PS 2 didn't fail, why the HECK Would PS 3 Fail?

I'm not sure if you ever heard of SEGA and Nintendo. Well, yea, did Snes fail? Did SuperNintendo fail? So why is GameCube on the borderline of failing?

X2
02-17-2005, 04:32
As for MS itself, they're really have about 7 businesses. sony on the other hand have hundreds of businesses. Movies, Music, Television, Animations. electronics-TV. DVD. VCR, Camera. Phone. ect.

MS creates software for all of those divisions. MS has 19 billion on hand that is not tide up in stocks.

DezNutz
02-17-2005, 04:45
PS 1 and PS 2 didn't fail, why the HECK Would PS 3 Fail?

I'm not sure if you ever heard of SEGA and Nintendo. Well, yea, did Snes fail? Did SuperNintendo fail? So why is GameCube on the borderline of failing?

I think you underestimate Nintendo. They are really not failing at all? They have around 20 million units console units on this current generation, if they are failing then so is X-Box, not to mention Nintendo owns the handheld market. Sega is not really a fair comparison, as they only had 1 dominate console out of 4, yeah that is 1/4 dominate consoles. Their fall, was slow and drawed out, and they still make software to this day. Sony on the other hand has had 2 dominate consoles, that is 2/2, no dominate console EVER had only 1 more generation. Super NES, Genesis, PS1, PS2, it took SEGA two more conosles to finally fail at console market. Ninetedo still turns a large profit, they know their market and profit margins, they dont spend more money to make new systems or games then what they make in profit in return, I would call that a good company not a failing one.

MiThRaZoR
02-17-2005, 05:33
Yeah, but did you see how much Nintendo fell from N64 to GameCube? That would suck. They're falling. Unless they do something revolutionary. :wink:

Captain-nippon
02-17-2005, 05:42
I'm not sure if you ever heard of SEGA and Nintendo. Well, yea, did Snes fail? Did SuperNintendo fail? So why is GameCube on the borderline of failing?

ARe you for real? When did Nintendo fail? GameCube sold 20 million units. How is that Consider to be a failure? Super Nintendo NEVER FAILED.

Your hatred for Sony blinded your mind to the point that you can't really accept the TRUE. X box was a FAILURE., X box 2 WILL BE A FAILURE. History will repeat itself. Halo 3 will probably be the only game for X box 2 that might sale over 5 millions copies.

Since X box 2 will have inferior graphic and technology, not to mention inferior games. But the time PS 3 release next March, 20 millions PSP will probably be sold. The wonder of PSP and PS 3 together., not to mention the 100 millions PS 2 sold by next march.

MiThRaZoR
02-17-2005, 05:46
Your hatred for Sony blinded your mind to the point that you can't really accept the TRUE.

Ummm.... Do you know me. I am a Sony fan *expletive deleted*.

I said borderline. That doesn't mean that it actually failed. So go think again.

Brandon
02-17-2005, 06:34
Can you guys please spend more time on discussing the topic than insulting each other? Thanks.


Your hatred for Sony blinded your mind to the point that you can't really accept the TRUE. X box was a FAILURE., X box 2 WILL BE A FAILURE. History will repeat itself. Halo 3 will probably be the only game for X box 2 that might sale over 5 millions copies.
His hatred for Sony? Your hatred for Microsoft is obvious, so you contradict yourself. You came in here obviously hating the Xbox, so you really have no place to judge. And you've continuously brought up Halo, and it's getting old. Please stop with the console bashing and flaming of other members for doing the same exact thing you are. It's just silly. And it'd be nice if everyone else stopped with the console bashing as well (console appreciation is fine, and so is showing a little distaste towards a company, as long as you're not offending anyone...especially on purpose). Get back to the topic now please.

Captain-nippon
02-17-2005, 07:04
Where did i say it hate MS or X box. yes, I do have the Sony Vaio computer, which i think are best Video/Audio computer on the market. That's the reason why I brought a sony computer.

So tell me which name sound better X box or PlayStation? Which name relate to Playing Video Games?

X box was a failure, that's a statement of fact not opinon.

Those people who think PS 3 will fail, well that's a opinon. But more of fear that PS 3 might destory the X box 2.

Brandon
02-17-2005, 07:27
X box was a failure, that's a statement of fact not opinon.
That's an opinion, not a fact. Both Nintendo and Xbox have sold 20+ million units. Just because Sony dominated this generation doesn't mean the other 2 are failures.


But more of fear that PS 3 might destory the X box 2.
That's also an opinion.


Where did i say it hate MS or X box.
Hmmm...


Let me see, PS 2 reached 75 millions units. X fart about 15 millions united. halo 2 is the only game for X fart to reach over 5 millions copies. PS 2 Have over 100 titles that reached over 5 copies.

X fart design is too big to fit in my closet. PS 2 is small enough to fit in my wallet.

PS 3 have blue Ray and Cell, X frat 2 still use standard DVD format.

Sony Also have PSP, which sold 1 million unit.

Sony is 10 times bigger than MS.
So MS is using Sony technology than, Blu Ray? the people at MS can't come up the their owe technology? Now you know why X Fart 2 really don't have a chance.
There is a point, PS 2 is superior to X fart. PS 2 was smaller before and even smaller after.

Hmmm...I don't know where I got the assumption that you don't like the Xbox.

siren
02-17-2005, 09:58
When considering Million selling titles also consider user base. <br />
<br />
Xbox has less than 1/4th the console base of Sony. If you were to take every MS game and Multiply it by 4x you would have more 5x...

Thegamingdwarf
02-17-2005, 12:19
Errr, not by units selling they havent. According to GAMES tm magazine, figures given in by 10 of the largest retailers in the world, the stats show that the PS2 at the end of last year had sold 70 Million units around the world, the xbox had sold 13.7 million, the gamecube had sold 13.9 million and the GBA had sold 49.4 million units. These figures show that world wide microsoft still havent passed nintendo and the only thing that comes close to sonys total sales is the GBA(astonishing as it is).

Admittedly this is raw sales and not what siren is talking about but once you see how many people own what, it gets that little bit more interesting to see where all the xbox million and more sellers come from, and i think this is down to the fact that there are a few really good titles that are worth buying and then you look at th rest. The xbox has more 1 million unit sellers than the PS2 because it has less choice to choose out of, if you look at how many games the PS2 as and its no wounder it has few one million unit sellers, there are so many games to chose from. The xbox has a limited games range, and this can be good because it gives people th chance to develop excellent games but there are a few of them so people go out and by those to make them one million sellers.

If you look at the total revenue of games verses cost the PS2 has moretotal revenue than the xbox. But when looking at the xbox each game developers has more singular revenue than the PS2 games developers, that is why most PS2 game developers merge to get singular game development revenue.

cyrusmg
02-17-2005, 17:03
Welllllll, we are starting to split hairs over the economics f the situation, and in truth, you can manipulate numbers however you want. There are alot of valid points in Siren's numbers, though alot of it is hypothetical. MS is moving upward faster right now than Sony is, is what it boild down too. Their profit is increasing at a larger rate than Sony's.

Thats aside, i think that Sony's endevour is actually the risckier of the two, in terms of commitment, counter to Siren's belief. True they still have asets to sell off, but i think that if MS software gamle doesn't work, they will easily be able to take what they have learned and apply it to the PC development industry. I think they will quite concievably start a PC buissness if the Xenon doesn't do well, just because i think that they will have the experience to do it. Sure it would take work, but so has breaking into the console industry.

If Sony fails, they don't really have anywhere else they can shift focus for the next while. They can't apply their experience to software or something like that, they will be forced to come up with ANOTHER revolutoinary design to stay afloat.

james3579
02-17-2005, 21:06
one thing that will help them is the release of Cell cpus i read somewhere (ill look for comfirmation) they would put them into sony viao computers, that will help them a bit.

another thing, whats so important about xbox selling more than ps2 at the end of the year? 80 million people have ps2 and they are still selling strong, of course they are going to slow down a bit :?

siren
02-17-2005, 22:24
the 70/13/13 #'s are from the end of 2003 not 2004.

Though those #'s also bring up a good point.

In one year MS not only passed Nintendo but they are also ahead of them by over 2 Million units now. All this while selling virtually nothing in the 3rd largest territory

Kejun
02-17-2005, 23:07
Xbox has less than 1/4th the console base of Sony. If you were to take every MS game and Multiply it by 4x you would have more 5x Million sellers than Sony and more 1 Million sellers than Sony.


Ok, I have to say, this is not completely true. In the beginning of the PS2 Sony was a little overzealous and pushed its release to North America just because they found that their laser could play region one DVD's. They didn't realize that their lasers would burn out and so many many PS2 users were forced to buy new ones.

That being said, the figures on the PS2 are not nearly as accurate as the other systems. Yes Sony is still leading the market but they are not nearly as far ahead as you might think, especially with the number of people owning 2 PS2's or an old style and the new slim line PS2's. If any of you ever played EQOA then you would see people who own 2 - 6 PS2's.

Yes, this means the PS2 is not dominating as hard as the figures show, and yes this also means that the X-Box games sold do not come close to the PS2 games sold if you even out the number of actual users.

Chaotic_King
02-17-2005, 23:13
Sony's other divisions are so far in the Red that it is sick. They needed some way to help these other divisions out. They just could no longer compete in the Consumer Electronics space when you have chinese and korean companies with significantly lower cost labor making devices.
Sony Pictures are so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony BMG is so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony Ericsson is so far in the red that it is sick?

MiThRaZoR
02-18-2005, 00:04
ARe you for real? When did Nintendo fail? GameCube sold 20 million units. How is that Consider to be a failure? Super Nintendo NEVER FAILED.

My point exactly...


Your hatred for Sony blinded your mind to the point that you can't really accept the TRUE. X box was a FAILURE., X box 2 WILL BE A FAILURE. History will repeat itself. Halo 3 will probably be the only game for X box 2 that might sale over 5 millions copies.
When did I say I hated Sony? Would you like to quote me where I said that? How is Xbox a failure? It sold more that Nintendo.

So from what I'm thinking is your a fanboy... You act like a 7 year old that has to defend everything. Don't come to discussion boards if you can't discuss correctly.

Now I don't really want to go off topic but had to. Not enough time yesterday.

Captain-nippon
02-18-2005, 00:06
Sony Pictures are so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony BMG is so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony Ericsson is so far in the red that it is sick?

Oh man, you are really LOST.

sony Pictures is racking in big time cash in the last 3 years. How many sony movies were # 1 at the box office last years. In America along, Sony Picture post $1.3 billions ticket sales. Spider man 2 made over 800 millions worldwide, PLUS DVD and video rental.

The music is losing money because of Illegal download.

Sony Ericsson is making over $300 millions last quarter, and for the last 5 o 6 quarter too.

go do some research.

MiThRaZoR
02-18-2005, 00:12
Sony Pictures are so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony BMG is so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony Ericsson is so far in the red that it is sick?

Oh man, you are really LOST.

You did do good research Captain... But you forgot to compare... So do your research again with a bit more homework.

Kejun
02-18-2005, 00:13
Sony Pictures are so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony BMG is so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony Ericsson is so far in the red that it is sick?

Oh man, you are really LOST.

sony Pictures is racking in big time cash in the last 3 years. How many sony movies were # 1 at the box office last years. In America along, Sony Picture post $1.3 billions ticket sales. Spider man 2 made over 800 millions worldwide, PLUS DVD and video rental.

The music is losing money because of Illegal download.

Sony Ericsson is making over $300 millions last quarter, and for the last 5 o 6 quarter too.

go do some research.
Maybe if you read his entire post including that quote you would understand



Quote:
Sony's other divisions are so far in the Red that it is sick. They needed some way to help these other divisions out. They just could no longer compete in the Consumer Electronics space when you have chinese and korean companies with significantly lower cost labor making devices.

Sony Pictures are so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony BMG is so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony Ericsson is so far in the red that it is sick?


To me it looks like he is confused as to how the person who posted the quote he took could think Sonys divisions are losing.

Captain-nippon
02-18-2005, 00:14
That's an opinion, not a fact. Both Nintendo and Xbox have sold 20+ million units. Just because Sony dominated this generation doesn't mean the other 2 are failures.


That's a fact. Nintendo is making about a $1 billion or so a year. X box is losing $200 on every system sold. Yes, GameCube and X box are about the same in units sold, one very big difference though, GameCube is making money, X box is losing money. That's why X box was a failure.



Xbox started out with just 8% of system sales WW on a monthly basis. By the end of year 1 they had barely broken 12%. Now they sit around 23% and growing. They have passed by the #2 company which was a 20+ year veteran of the industry.

When in Rome did this happened? When is Xbox have a bigger market share than Nintendo? GameBoy is about 95% of the portable market, Console are at even number with X box, Nintendo sale 10 times more games than X box. Gameboy, GameCube, and Now DS.

Chaotic_King
02-18-2005, 00:14
Sony Pictures are so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony BMG is so far in the red that it is sick?
Sony Ericsson is so far in the red that it is sick?

Oh man, you are really LOST.

sony Pictures is racking in big time cash in the last 3 years. How many sony movies were # 1 at the box office last years. In America along, Sony Picture post $1.3 billions ticket sales. Spider man 2 made over 800 millions worldwide, PLUS DVD and video rental.

The music is losing money because of Illegal download.

Sony Ericsson is making over $300 millions last quarter, and for the last 5 o 6 quarter too.

go do some research.
:wink: I knew that. But siren said that Sony's other divisions were so far in the red, and I was asking about the ones that I knew weren't. 8)

bustabusta196
02-18-2005, 01:00
and to add more comments.. microsoft isnt loosing any money on xbox anymore. It was announced like a few months ago that they are in the black(out of the red) so you can stop trying to use the microsoft looses so and so much money on xbox..

Link: to prove it... http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7537/Xbox-Drives-Record-Financial-Results-for-Microsoft/

PocketAces
02-18-2005, 17:17
Making a statement about any of the 3 big companies failing is a gross misrepresentation of the achievements they HAVE made.

Before stating things like that take into consideration.

Sony has been successful, and rightfully so, with the PS1 and PS2, because it came onto the market as a pioneer in other areas ontop of gaming to peoples living rooms.
Playstation 1 played Music CD's, no other game system in history had done that before (With the exception of Sega CD, which was an unfortunate under acheiver in it's day), after much success integrating gaming and music entertainment into peoples living rooms, Sony went on to release the PS2, which of course had DVD playback, another first for a game machine, and I couldn't count the amount of people I know who own a PS2, 1 or 2 games, and 100+ DVD's, which they use their PS2 to playback.... both of those things had nothing to do with gaming, but in the end, it's all about total product compatibility, the more it can do, the better it is for the customer and company to promote.

XBox, a pioneer in Online gaming, looking at the numbers doesn't even need to come up in this conversation. The PS2's online capabilities are great, but unfortunatly, the XBox is KNOWN for it's online play capabilities, I don't hear people walking around talking about how awesome Socom or Final Fantasy XI are on PS2, I hear about how many people someone killed in a huge deathmatch on Halo 2 online...
This is not to say that the XBox will control the online gaming community in the future, but for now, there is no question, this is their area of specialization. and they will work to keep that thought in their new machine.
The Harddrive in the game console is another new idea that Microsoft decided to persue with the XBox design, although there are some issues with this, and talk that they may not keep it in XBox 2, it is none the less a very successful idea, and I know that my XBox holds a vast amount of my music on it which is nice to hear through my home stereo instead of my computer while I'm relaxing on the couch.

And Nintendo. Although in my first post I made the comment that they really need the Resident Evil franchise to keep me interested, that's not totally accurate... I DID buy ANOTHER gamecube because RE4 was released and blew my mind, but there are an awful lot of games available (Mario, Zelda, Mario Party) that would keep me and alot of other people playing Nintendo's system. The nice thing about Nintendo's marketing and design idea is that, unlike Sony and Microsoft, Nintendo aims at a younger audience, and throw's out some killer apps for the older crowd when it has them. This alone, plus the dominance they hold in the handheld market that will keep them around for years to come. Nintendo doesn't need to be #1 with a bullet, because gaming is all they do, keep in mind the ideal behind Sony and Microsoft, they both control parts of another HUGE market in Home Electronics and Computers, that they want to branch out on. Nintendo only needs and wants to focus on it's game production.

I'm sure that as long as there are numerous systems on the market, there will be debates about which one is better, it's an inevitable thing seeing as how it's human nature to point out your opinions. When there was Super Nintendo, there was Genesis, and I still sometimes get in light battles with my friends about which system kicked more ass back in the day... but then, we pick up a couple of controllers and beat the hell out of each other on whatever game we want to thats in our XBox, PS2 or Gamecube.

3 Systems, more choices, better competition, better games.
Argue all you want about specs, and money invested, but in the end, Everything these companies do is benefiting Armchair commanders like you and I.

Games people, They're the Key

Till next time, I've got a planet to save.

james3579
02-18-2005, 18:10
the problem with nintendo is it strayed from its original vision of gaming, remember the snes? that was easily the best console ever. its the console where most people really got into games. it has the best games ever made on it, no amount of halo or unreal can change that. gamecube start to get really good, but too late i think, with its new games like metroid prime 2, resident evil 4, the new zelda comming out, and many more really good titles

mckmas8808
02-18-2005, 19:31
I think the problem is most people say that the best system ever is the system they play when they were young. Not to pick on you james3579, but you sound like my dad. He would say "son in my day music was real music, nowadays all you hear is crap and nobody can make music anymore".

See I figured out that the "best ever" in anything is what people played, listen to, or watch when they were younger. See guys when we get older lets say 20 years from now people today will be saying "the Xbox or PS2 or Gamecube was the best system ever." Not even thinking about the SNES anymore.

Games today are great. I tend to think they are the best that they have ever been. They are just as fun and entertaining as games were 10 years ago if not more. Games today are bringing as so much closer to reality. Look at RE4, a lot of reviewers are considering that the best survival horror game of all-time and its great.

My point is give games today their credit. And I to hope that all three systems survive the next gen and I hope they compete even harder around 2011 when the next system come around.

gingerprince
02-18-2005, 21:55
:)

As an answer to the original point.

Sony arn`t developing cell chips and blue ray disc technology for `the gamers` as you put it.

The chips will be used in most (if not all) of sony`s future hardware - tv`s,hi -fi`s etc.
Yes they will be fast and powerfull but that is only part of the story for game production.What`s really needed is a good programable interface
that will allow game producers to quickly and easily `make` games.
Microsoft (or xbox,xbox next,PC) already have it DIRECTX,version 10 (x) is rumoured to be used on the next Gen Xbox/PC`s. More importantly the XNA development tool will mean easier game production for XBOX 2 and PC games.

Secondly,the BLU-Ray format,Which will allow more data to be packed into a disc is obviously a good move forward.The technology isn`t availble yet and is sure to be more expensive then Dvd in the beggining years.Microsoft are rumoured to be sticking with the Dvd format which is a sensible move, as Dvd hasn`t run its coarse yet and will easily cope with the data required for a next gen game - even if it means using 2 or 3 discs for the next gen console cycle!

james3579
02-19-2005, 06:03
sony has already said that the chip will go easier on developers, but is that really so important for seeing better games, ps2 had the best games of the 3 and from what i hear it was the hardest

gaming ultima
02-19-2005, 12:34
sony has already said that the chip will go easier on developers, but is that really so important for seeing better games, ps2 had the best games of the 3 and from what i hear it was the hardest
thing is about what you said about the ps2 is that it included 1 opinion and 1 half opinion half fact (the way you put it it was a opinion but if it was phrased differently then it would be a fact)

muchuukuri
02-19-2005, 13:14
You know, everyone keeps saying that Sony's just pumping money into hardware while microsoft is pumping money into software... ... I think it's pretty much right in the generalizing sense, but that's all. Sony has put a ton of money in to a really awesome piece of engineering... by the way, there's tons of info available on the CELL architecture and its development, pretty cool IMO and reminds me alot of Cray architecture... anyway, but while that may be all fine and dandy I think people are forgetting about Collada... basically Sony's answer to XNA... Sony seems to have learned a lot from the PS2's programming issues (some due to adapting to parallel processing while the majority rest with a poor and incomplete programing tool set at launch) and decided to make sure there's good full set of tools available for the developers. I'm curious if anyone knows how Collada (What a dumb name... not that XNA is any better) is advancing? Anyone, taken a look at the instruction set provided so far have any opinions on it? I started reading a pdf on it but half fell asleep and said screw it... crappy attention span, what can I say. Anyway, it looks like learning/programming for the PS3 won't suck like it did for the PS2. To be honest though I'm curious to see how much of an improvement it will make... also, I'm curious about which version of directX they'll be making use of, obviously 9, but 9a 9b 9c, which? Guess the latest one that'll come out in future months, right?




On a completely seperate note... all the heated debate has got me itchy to lay my conspiracy theories on the PS3 and XBox 360 (what's it currently being called). I know I know, it's just fuel for the fire, but aiz gots ta!! ... I apologize for having you read that last line... MOVING ON


Ok, CPU... remember that rumor a while back saying the Xbox2'd have a rearranged CELL in it? Well, I think the rumor was right in part... well, in a part... here's my conspiracy theory!! As you all know (I assume, sorry) the CELL has a central PPC with a modified altivec instruction set (I haven't heard how... has anyone here heard?) that essentially, although it can do more, directs "traffic" to the 8 SPUs (Synergistic Processing Units... another dumb name ^_^ ), which do the work. Now, the rumor was that the CPU in the XBox was gonna just be rearranged CELL, now that's bunk because it's impossible to just quickly rearrange CPU architecture and maintain integrity and the lawsuits that Sony and Toshiba would file after finding out would clear ANY debt Sony has ^_^, however... IBM has rights to the PPC! Hoho!! My guess, the Xbox2 will use the same PPC, unmodified altivec, with 2 attached processing units (think SPU, and the 2 is based off that one pic floating around called the Xenon system block diagram). Essentially the Xbox2 will use a part of the CELL and a more rudimentary parallel processing design... think kinda like the EE only GOOD and faster (not to knock the EE, for it's time it was pretty impresive). This also means that unless microsoft pulls off a programming miracle NO BACKWARD COMPATABILITY!!! Dun Dun DAAHHHHHHH! ... Again, sorry. Also, while the CELL may be able to push 4.6 GHZ (some one said they made it to 5, but I've only heard 4.6, so I'll stick to my guns) my guess is that the CELL won't be clocked higher than the XBox2. Prolly 3.5 GHZ at most. Why? Guess! ... ... HEAT!! Even if the chip sets are a great deal cooler than the P4s (not a hard thing to do at all) or the AMD chips having 4 or 3 (3 is the supposed number on XBox2) is gonna make things HOT!!

DRIVES... the XBox2 will definately not support HD-DVD! Why? The 1st HD-DVD drives won't roll into production till Q4 2005... XBox2 is gonna launch early Q4, supposedly October/November... unless microsoft put's 'em in the night before the XBox2 releases no go!

Well... that's it... shut up I know!! But that's all I can think of that I'm 90%+ confident about. Oh, also... I'm pretty darn sure that the Xenon system block diagram ain't no hoax. I thinks its really what XBox2 is gonna be like.

I feel better ^_^

Ah, if you're curious about the pic it can be found here:

http://www.ccfx.net/nextbox/images/xbox2/pages/xbox2_schematic.html


Dang, I ended up writing more about my little conspiracy theory than my interest in Collada... still think its a dumb name. Sorry

gingerprince
02-19-2005, 13:15
I don`t want to start a flame war between Xbox,nintendo & PS2.
I would say each format has its own exclusive `good` games.
However technicaly the PS2 IS the weakest machine,I don`t think any sensible person will disagree with that.
If you follow that on to the next Gen consoles It doesn`t mean the most powerful console is going to get the best games.
It boils down to the ease in which developers can produce a quality product - and at the `moment` Microsoft with its XNA system are leagues apart from the other two console formats!

vg132
02-19-2005, 13:18
sony has already said that the chip will go easier on developers, but is that really so important for seeing better games, ps2 had the best games of the 3 and from what i hear it was the hardest
Yes, its very importent. If the developer first have to spend 20 or 30% of his time building support systems (API:s) for the game insted of working on the actual game it takes alot of time away from the actual game building and the game suffer in the end. With more prebuilt API:s you can make better games faster and cheaper and if you can make the games faster and cheaper there is also hope for more innovation because there is less time and money involved with the project.
But I think Sony have learned from there mistake with PS2, thay have already with the PSP shown that thay can still provide good API:s so lets just hope thay can do the same for the PS3.

/Viktor

Chaotic_King
02-19-2005, 17:52
I don't believe that Collada is Sony's answer to XNA

james3579
02-19-2005, 23:33
sony has already said that the chip will go easier on developers, but is that really so important for seeing better games, ps2 had the best games of the 3 and from what i hear it was the hardest
Yes, its very importent. If the developer first have to spend 20 or 30% of his time building support systems (API:s) for the game insted of working on the actual game it takes alot of time away from the actual game building and the game suffer in the end. With more prebuilt API:s you can make better games faster and cheaper and if you can make the games faster and cheaper there is also hope for more innovation because there is less time and money involved with the project.
But I think Sony have learned from there mistake with PS2, thay have already with the PSP shown that thay can still provide good API:s so lets just hope thay can do the same for the PS3.

/Viktor

alright, i get it now, so if the cell were easier to program on, would we see a lower cost or same cost to buy the games, or would it just be a slight raise in price, like 55-60 USD

muchuukuri
02-20-2005, 01:25
Hmm... chaotic_king, you said you don't think Collada is Sonys version of XNA? Am I wrong? To my understanding XNA is nothing more than api/instruction extension for DirectX... the same of which can be said for Collada. Did I miss something? Am I misinformed? If you know something, please do share it, 'cause I'm really not up to par on the software developments. Is Collada perhaps a poor mans version of XNA? Or am I again just totally off base?

Smily0012
02-20-2005, 03:11
Everyone is constantly saying that easy programing will make game companies go and side with that system. ill tell u a little secret, it wont. if one company has 80million systems out in the market, trust me they will make games for it. look at nintendo, wasnt it easier to make games for it and almost no games were made for it. im telling you, good specs make people buy systems and where there is a large market, there will be games.

james3579
02-20-2005, 04:49
i think its neither specs nor easy programing, sony has proved with the weakest of both that they dominate. they have so many good games despite these two drawbacks

vg132
02-20-2005, 08:45
would we see a lower cost or same cost to buy the games, or would it just be a slight raise in price, like 55-60 USD
Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo lowering the price for a game :shock: Not a chance, its just more profit for the publisher :)

Everyone is constantly saying that easy programing will make game companies go and side with that system. ill tell u a little secret, it wont. if one company has 80million systems out in the market, trust me they will make games for it. look at nintendo, wasnt it easier to make games for it and almost no games were made for it. im telling you, good specs make people buy systems and where there is a large market, there will be games.
Very true, but to get a installbase of 80 milion you have to sell many systems and its easyer to sell systems if you have great games, you get great games if the developers can take advantage of the hardware and to take advantage of the hardware you have to supplie them with good support tools :)

/Viktor

gingerprince
02-20-2005, 09:10
Sony `won` this generation of console because basically they had weak competition,first console out and probably more importantly follow on sales from PS1 owners.
This generation will be a lot tighter,I personally don`t think any platform will runaway with sales this time round.
As consumers we are the winners because if sony /microsoft/nintendo had no competition then they would be in no hurry to push the technology envelope.
At the end of the day people will buy the system that has the best EXCLUSIVE games (eg.Mario - Nintendo,Halo - Xbox etc)
I`ll probably find myself in the position where i`ll buy all the consoles because there will be games on each platform that I want to play.

X2
02-20-2005, 13:41
Sony will not be using directx because Nvidia can no longer use directx. Awhile MS directx team sued Nvidia for changing some of the code that was beening used in there chip. I will post the info as soon as I find it. As far as the MS using HD-DVD I don't think that they are worried because they just recently annouced WMHD format that is supported by HD-DVD.

james3579
02-20-2005, 20:06
i think nvidia is gonna use some modified form of open GL

SessDMC
02-20-2005, 20:19
Right then to inform the missinformed,

Firstly, Collada is in the R n D department of SCEA, it has little to no backing (as learned from siren), otherwise their keeping a titanium lid on the project so MS dont get any ideas.

Collada is NOT an API, it is a collection of open language formats, like open GL, open MX and open what ever, beeing put possibley into the the dev kits that sony will ship in the near future.

Secondly, nvidia can make some graphical tools to get the full potential of their next generation graphics card without directX afterall they should know the graphic arcitecture inside out.

Add any more info if you will. but thats as far as i know both subjects.

StrifeSnake13*
02-20-2005, 21:44
One thing I really like about Sony, is that they seem to re-invest in us the gamers. More so, then any other company (sega, nintendo or microsoft), they have not only made a ton of money off of us gamers, but they put more money into delivering us the best. Take this latest next generation for example, they partnered with 2 other companies for over 3 years developoing new cpu technology (the cell) spending over 300 million dollars in development just for us gamers. add-in the devlpment of the blue-ray disk/ readers/ getting compies signed to support the technology, and developing the technology further again for movies, but also for us gamers. Sony has made ther own plants to make chips to keep cost lower again making easier cost for top of line products for us gamers. They have done this for all three systems so far, and I am sure are already working on some ideas for the fourth. I never see this kind of money/time/ or development taken by any other console game company, most do some minor adaptaions of exisitng technology and rely on other manufactures to produce their products. Sony seems to realize the market in video games, and they also seem to realize it takes alot to remain at the top, and more so then any other company they put the money and time where their mouth is devloping state of the art hardware for each next generation system. Seems nice to know that not all my money used purchasing games is being thrown away by a game company that will slop together another system (thanks saturn), put are re-investing gamers money making our dreams of better systems and hardware a reality. Nice to see some companies making leaps for gamers instead of just adpating exisitng technology or keeping gamers money and not making an effor to create some new technology.

True, if you have seen last years E3 press conference; sony talked a lot about innovation. Sony try's to develop new technology for their consoles. Cell and blu-ray are good examples, sure they will be used for things other than the PS3 but they are still new innovations going into the PS3. Xbox2 will probably not be much more powerful than top of the line pc's because they use a good portion of exiting hardware (more than sony at least).

sony knows that even though they are the leader in the market; they still have to make a great consol, witch requires new innovation.

SessDMC
02-20-2005, 22:42
I would say the PS3 as the REAL next generation console useing what willl be next generation of technology from IBM, nvidia and rambus that will extend the shelf life possible, while MS want to Rush to the door this time.

siren
02-21-2005, 06:43
What about the Xbox2 is existing hardware?

There is not a single piece of hardware out there with a 3 core chip, each core capable of processing 2 threads. Where is the ATI chip that is going in? A chip like it won't be out until after the Xbox2 ships. How about a motherboard with even remotely the same pathing on it. There is not a single one that allows the kind communication that the Xbox2's will have between the CPU and GPU.

The Xbox2 is as much next generation as is the PS3. They are just taking very different approaches. Sony went for raw power. MS is going for efficent hardware that is beyond currently available hardware, while also keeping development costs in line.

Chaotic_King
02-21-2005, 13:59
I would say the PS3 as the REAL next generation console useing what willl be next generation of technology from IBM, nvidia and rambus that will extend the shelf life possible, while MS want to Rush to the door this time.
I've got to say, I agree. I'm hoping that Sony blows everyone away with the PS3.

mckmas8808
02-21-2005, 17:02
Yeah but lately I've been getting a little nervous. Siren makes a good point efficent hardware is ALWAYS better than more raw power. But if Sony can some kind of way take that raw power and help devs utilise that power then Sony's games will look better easily. To me the most important games that we should pay attention to at this year's E3 are the games developed by Sony. You would think they should know how to access their own power.

SessDMC
02-21-2005, 17:44
I was going to explain, but yeh the Dev tools must get the FULL potential from the PS3 to make a full on Next Gen improvement. And that will Impact the X2 Efficiant hardware.

mckmas8808
02-21-2005, 18:25
Man I think its time for Sony to release just some very small info on that GPU. Everybody in every forum is dying to know that info. I think its going to come down to who has the best GPU.

siren
02-21-2005, 20:28
*sigh*

Everyone wants to know about the CPU or the GPU. We on the internet forums like this are so different from the majority of the gaming population that it is sick.

What about the games? I could care less of their GPU was some alien technology from 50 years into the future. If they don't show any games this E3 and spend the entire show talking about their technology, sales, and "Cyber World" again, I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed gamers out there.

Chaotic_King
02-21-2005, 21:28
*sigh*

Everyone wants to know about the CPU or the GPU. We on the internet forums like this are so different from the majority of the gaming population that it is sick.

What about the games? I could care less of their GPU was some alien technology from 50 years into the future. If they don't show any games this E3 and spend the entire show talking about their technology, sales, and "Cyber World" again, I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed gamers out there.
You honestly think that Sony won't show any games? :roll:
Of course Sony is going to show games, but why shouldn't they speak about their technology, their sales, and their "Cyber World"?

You also never answered me. You said that Sony's other divisions were so far in the red that it's sick. I listed three, and I wanted to know how they are so far in the red that it's sick. (Sony Pictures, Sony BMG, and Sony Ericsson)

The_One
02-21-2005, 22:55
Yeah but lately I've been getting a little nervous. Siren makes a good point efficent hardware is ALWAYS better than more raw power. But if Sony can some kind of way take that raw power and help devs utilise that power then Sony's games will look better easily. To me the most important games that we should pay attention to at this year's E3 are the games developed by Sony. You would think they should know how to access their own power. That, I agree with. PS2 vs XBox is a good example. PS2 had more raw calculating power, but in reality, XBox could utilize about twice as much in real-time performance (XBox could utilize about ~2.2GFLOp/s, PS2 was only able to utilize ~1.5GFLOp/s out of 6.2GFLOp/s, not surprised though, the VU's were mainly sitting ducks doing nothing).

*sigh*

Everyone wants to know about the CPU or the GPU. We on the internet forums like this are so different from the majority of the gaming population that it is sick.

What about the games? I could care less of their GPU was some alien technology from 50 years into the future. If they don't show any games this E3 and spend the entire show talking about their technology, sales, and "Cyber World" again, I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed gamers out there. Well, that's only you. There's plenty of gamers (PC Gamers) that prefer graphics over games. Just look at the amount of people that bought a nVidia 6800 Ultra or X800XT PE just to play Doom 3 or Half-Life 2. Is a $500+ card worth it just for 2 games? There you go, apparently, plenty of PC gamers think so.

Also, like I said before, Sony has OFFICIALLY stated that the PS3 will be at E3 in some playable form.

mckmas8808
02-21-2005, 23:23
Man that makes me so angry. :x The_One I never knew that devs could only utilze 1.5 GFLOPS/s. WHY??? This means that 'if' the PS3 has 4 cells and has 1TFLOP/s and it may be possible that they only can use 200 GFLOP/s. Thats horrible, now I'm getting scared.

DezNutz
02-21-2005, 23:24
*sigh*

Everyone wants to know about the CPU or the GPU. We on the internet forums like this are so different from the majority of the gaming population that it is sick.

What about the games? I could care less of their GPU was some alien technology from 50 years into the future. If they don't show any games this E3 and spend the entire show talking about their technology, sales, and "Cyber World" again, I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed gamers out there.

I find it funny that depending on what favors X-Box changes your stance. First the X-Box is techinically better then PS2, sot hat should matter, but now it is coming out that PS3 has better specs then XBox2 it shoudl not matter that much.


By the way Playsation for life said PS3 using next generation technology not hardware as you imply. And yes there is a big difference, the cell and Blue-Laser are next genearation technology something that has never existed before anywhere, new technology develped just for the system, this is different then just new hardware.
Bottom line, Sony has more and better AAA Game titles (not my opion, but the opion of a few million other gamers world wide combined so don't say it is just me), and now they are going ot have a better technically box with the better game titles, XBox2 is in trouble.

The_One
02-21-2005, 23:27
Man that makes me so angry. :x The_One I never knew that devs could only utilze 1.5 GFLOPS/s. WHY??? This means that 'if' the PS3 has 4 cells and has 1TFLOP/s and it may be possible that they only can use 200 GFLOP/s. Thats horrible, now I'm getting scared. Well, the problem was that the VU's were horribly utilized. Only 1 of them were even used most of the time, and those were only used for easy calculations that didn't exploit the full extent of it, VU00 was mainly sitting ducks, VU01 was used -- Or it could be the other way around, my memory is REALLY bad -- something that shouldn't happen with the PS3 IF the proper Documentations and Dev Tools are provided by Sony. I have a fair amount of doubt, but I'm pretty sure Sony learned from their mistakes.

siren
02-21-2005, 23:39
Sorry was still researching into the division #'s. You are correct the divisions are not so much in the red anymore, but I am unable to find out why, given that they are technically profiting, that Sony's debt load keeps increasing year on year. If all these divisions are making a profit, where are they loosing Billions of $'s each year.



I have never said that the Xbox being more powerful is what mattered. Contrary I think that was one of the worst moves Microsoft made. It prevented them from producing more systems for launch and decoyed so much of their early design and plans to be powerful.

If they had concentrated more on the games and the system as a whole, I do believe that they would be a lot better of a boat. The system could have been smaller and they could have spent more effort on getting developers on board (if nothing else using the money to cover development costs for a couple of key titles that were offered to them from Japanese developers)

The Blu-Ray wasn't developed for the PS3. Sony is just putting it in there to try to increase it's adoption faster. It was developed for movies and PC storage.

Technology takes multiple forms. If you honestly think that just putting the Cell Chip in there will give them the edge, consider the following scenario.

The Sega Saturn was a technically more powerful system than the PS. It launched at the same time. It had Sega's name and a lot of well known franchises already on it. So who could it lose? It was a monster to develop for. It was a extremely unique archtecture the likes of which few developers had ever worked with, even in the console space. It was basically raw power, but didn't have anything to help it in the 3D space like the PS had. Thus they failed to get developers on board and have a wide enough selection of games for people to want to buy the system.


When talking technological edge, do not forget to mention XNA, Xbox Live, Visual Studio, XAct, ect... Just because Sony has a fancy processor does not mean they have the technological edge.

Chaotic_King
02-22-2005, 01:03
The Sega Saturn was a technically more powerful system than the PS. It launched at the same time. It had Sega's name and a lot of well known franchises already on it. So who could it lose? It was a monster to develop for. It was a extremely unique archtecture the likes of which few developers had ever worked with, even in the console space. It was basically raw power, but didn't have anything to help it in the 3D space like the PS had. Thus they failed to get developers on board and have a wide enough selection of games for people to want to buy the system.
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/12/03/news_6114419.html


PlayStation 3 chip will go easy on developers
IBM touts the PS3's Cell processor at San Francisco road show; company promises easier-to-grasp learning curve.
The Cell processor that will power the next version of the PlayStation game console will also be adaptable for advanced scientific research, but you won't have to be a rocket scientist to program it.
That is the pledge of one of the chief architects of the Cell, jointly developed by IBM, Sony, and Toshiba, who together on Friday sought to allay fears that the chip would create huge programming challenges for game developers just starting to learn their ways around the complex circuitry that powers the current PlayStation 2.

"We're very much aware of the need to balance between innovation in architecture and the ability to leverage that innovation," H. Peter Hofstee, a researcher in IBM's Systems and Technology division, said during a break at an IBM press event in San Francisco today. "The learning curve for this platform should be significantly better than previous ones."

The three companies announced their Cell plans three years ago, describing an advanced processor tailored for demanding multimedia tasks. The companies said earlier this week that they plan to begin test production of Cell chips early next year, with the first Cell-based products--workstation PCs for computer graphics production--set to arrive late in the year.

Sony and Toshiba both plan to start selling high-definition TV sets powered by the chip in 2006, which is also when Sony is expected to introduce the Cell-powered PlayStation 3.

Hofstee said the Cell will benefit game developers not only by giving them a stable and easily approachable foundation for games to run on, but also by powering the workstations they use to produce games. The upshot is that developers should be spending a lot less time waiting for their equipment to render the animations they create.

"We think it's going to be a much more seamless and speedy process for developers using these workstations," he said.

Besides workstations, game machines, and TV sets, the Cell is also likely to power certain types of scientific supercomputers, streaming media servers, and image analysis systems, all of which have continually expanding needs for processing power. Hofstee said the Cell taps into an emerging "convergence between what we think of as supercomputing and what we use in the entertainment space."

Beyond that, the sky's the limit, according to Hofstee, who said the Cell development team set out to create a flexible design that would dramatically increase processing power while skirting growing chipmaker concerns about power consumption.

"We've created something that is very flexible," he said. "Having a more generic architecture will allow people to do new things."
Couple this with the possibility of PS3 using Open GL ES 2.0, I don't think the PS3 will suffer the fate of the Saturn.

X2
02-22-2005, 01:18
I can't get a direct link to this article, but I'll post a copy in this thread. However, the link for the website is HERE http://www.jonpeddie.com/index.shtml . This is one of the most realistic and knowledgable articles I have read so far about the much hyped CELL processor by STI (Sony, Toshiba, and IBM). To sum it up: The CELL processor will be good in the PS3 and for multimedia processing, but it will not be competing with the x86 processors, and it will not revolutionize computing, no matter what Sony seems to think.

The article is as follows:

What the Cell Isn't
No, it's not your next PC or server.

Information on the new cell processor from Sony and IBM has been somewhat available to the geekily inclined public for quite a while now. So, I was very surprised by the questions I was being asked after the Cell's more official debut at the ISSCC conference. And, I was even more surprised by some of the reports that came out of the conference. Reporters have been consistently trying to make the Cell a competitor to the venerable X86 architecture and the Pentium in particular.

For example, here is the sort of quote you might encounter:

"Analysts say that the difference [between the Pentium and the Cell] is likely to shake up the contemporary model of computing that Microsoft and Intel have fostered. [because] The new chip also has been designed to handle multiple operating systems and programs simultaneously."

The Cell is not a Pentium killer or a competitor—it's a SIMD supercomputer, and just because it has an IBM Power processor in it, which has been demonstrated to run X86 code in an emulation mode, that's not the use or the future of this Cell.

Here's another one:

"Later this year, Intel and Advanced Micro Devices each plans to launch their own 'multicore' chips, which similarly up the number of commands that can be executed at once. IBM and Sun Microsystems already sell such multicore microprocessors, largely for business servers."

The Cell has an array of SIMD RISC processors, not multi-cell X86 processors. Nor will it be a super server chip—it's just not built that way. It's built to process the same kind of data, which is highly predictable, not changing data like a GP CPU in desktop or a server deals with. Mix up the data stream and types and feed it to a Cell and you'll see it screech to a slow crawl. It costs 18 cycles any time a branch mis-predict— that's not server-quality processing.

Is it your next workstation?

IBM Chairman, President, and Chief Executive Samuel Palmisano said that this year it'll sell a workstation containing Cell. That's true, it will be built at IBM's Boeblingen facility near Stuttgart (see Tech Watch, November 29). Such a system will be used for software development for the future Sony console. It's possible it may be used for scientific work, but special compilers and applications will have to be created to make use of it. That comes under the "someday" heading.

Is it a superomputer, on a chip?

Well yes, architecturally, it's exactly like the multi-processor SIMD vector machines that were built in the mid-eighties, and to some extent are still being built (only 4.2% of today's supercomputers are vector based). However, at 256 GFLOPS it's not, by itself, in the supercomputer class. (The slowest machine on the current list of the Top 500 supercomputers does 624 GFLOPS http://www.top500.org/lists/plists.php?TB=5&M=06&Y=2004.) But you can envision an array of Cells being made into a supercomputer, and given the expected low cost of this soon-to-be-mass-produced chip, that's entirely feasible, except that it might wrinkle the feathers of IBM's BlueGene group a bit.
It's not a Grid computer

The other popular misconception, which IBM and Sony are doing nothing to dispel, is the notion that the Cell will hook up to some type of grid (like Butterfly net) and either tap into more resources or allow millions of user to simultaneously play a game. Yes, online gaming can take advantage of the Butterfly net, and yes, IBM and Sony said they would use it. But it's not to share Cell resources—it's to play against others just like any other online network.

Take a look at this quote from a story published by CNET:

"Cells can even roam over a network, allowing the processor to perform a type of distributed or grid computing, an increasingly popular enterprise technique in which demanding tasks are divvied up among a gang of networked computers."

Clearly, there are some major misunderstandings about what networked and Grid computing are all about. Grid is used for collaboration and uses the Internet, not the fastest data exchange network in the world and certainly not fast enough for distributed for real-time computer, the type of computing that epitomizes a game.

A Playstation 3 could borrow unused processing power from other consoles on a network, for example, to complete a demanding task such as delivering streaming video. Sony has done a masterful job at creating a science fiction scenario that ignorant journalists have latched onto. The only problem is some of those ignorant journalists have good memories, and in a year or two when the next-generation Playstation is delivered and it doesn't do all these suggested whiz-bang things, those same journalists are going to feel used, and then they will write searing stories about how Sony and IBM have failed to live up to the expectations and promise of the lauded Cell. This misdirected PR BS is going to haunt IBM and Sony. Lest we forget, when Sony introduced the Playstation 2 Emotion Engine it was promised to power a wide variety of consumer electronics, and so far it's failed to live up to that promise.

Is it your next TV?

Well, Toshiba has been quoted as saying it plans to incorporate it into high-end TVs. Given the crashing ASPs on TVs these days, it's not likely the Cell, in its current configuration, will show up inside a TV, high-end or otherwise. The vector processors could be useful for MPEG decoding/encoding, but you wouldn't need eight of them, so a stripped-down version, with maybe two SPEs and a Power CPU, might be made for high-end TVs sometime in 2006, maybe.
So what is a Cell?

It is an eight-IMD processor array with a powerful master controller and program execution GP CPU. Each SIMD has local memory, high-speed interconnects, and a segmented memory structure ideally suited for graphics and codec applications. It has a super-high-speed chip memory interface and an equally fast flexible I/O for the graphics processor. It is currently running Linux and could run other OS's on the GP CPU.

It will be a really great game console processor and general multimedia accelerator, and should cost out at a reasonable consumer price range.—Jon Peddie

Brandon
02-22-2005, 02:06
However, the link for the website is HERE .
No, there isn't a link there or in your entire thread concerning said webpage, and you seem to have a problem doing so. Why is it so hard to add a link to your thread?

james3579
02-22-2005, 06:50
yea, the saturn did come out before PS and the dreamcast did come out before ps2, sony is a trusting company when it comes to being on top :twisted: overall i think that xbox 2 wont be so sucsessful. they have showed in xbox that they have online features, all these other cool features. but what makes a console a good console? games, games, games, games, games. the SNES, greatest console ever in my eyes, it had the best games, it didnt have features or any of that extra crap. but games, sony has the bigger variety of games, and alot of which are really good games. xbox has very few exclusives. but anyway, back to the topic :D

X2
02-22-2005, 10:16
The link is there now peanut butter.

SessDMC
02-22-2005, 14:25
The cell wont be powering the next gen PC, why so you ask? becuase sony and toshiba WANT them AIMED into YOUR LIVINGROOM! some people must have forgotten about it but it was aimed at multimedia tasks in the home, not in the office. :roll:

muchuukuri
02-22-2005, 17:52
That's a pretty good article... except for the "grid" part. Sony plans, as I understand them, are to use WiFi G or is it B... forget... the really high bandwidth one.... to connect processors together to share with eachother the work... yeah, it's not grid, but sounds better than grid to me. But then again his point may be that since its not ipsofacto a grid system people will whine... I understand that about the rest...but, he seemed to have kinda trailed off in the grid part....

Also, the cell may wind up in computing... my thought... take the dual g5s from apple... maybe instead a G5 and a cell... course, it won't happen over night...

The_One
02-22-2005, 20:16
G isn't really high bandwidth... ~51Mbp/s isn't what I consider high bandwidth when you have Gigabit LAN already... :roll:.

EDIT: Oh yeah, in real-time performance, you'd be lucky to get ~30Mbp/s+ in transfer rate with G.

muchuukuri
02-22-2005, 21:56
Good point, 30 isn't that much at all, I thought it would be more, are they using a differnet device for connection?? I remember something about the newer P4 nforce mobos using gigabit controlers in conjuction with PCIe...something like that maybe? Maybe, they don't need the extra speed?? .... correct me if I'm wrong 'cause I seem to be all the time, dagnabit, but sata HDDs run at about 150 right? And standard pata runs at 100... and they're easily the biggest bottle necks in PC's now-a-days, but ram takes care of that... maybe the idea was to use off hardware CELLs to do the job? A sort of wireless version of cable connections??

EDIT:: Nevermind, what I said just made no sense... let me ask this then, what is with all these claims for connectivity... ?? Just missguided perhaps??

Thegamingdwarf
02-23-2005, 19:03
connectivity, brings people together...ahhh :lol: ... No but seriousely connectivity is a good thing and sony have realised it. Connectivity has the potentilal, if marketed in the right way, to bring in more money to companies because they can use two peices of equipment in conjunction with one another, and they can say to get the best out of one you have to have the other as well making people buy both and there for increasing the profit margin and pleasing the consumer more.

Connectivity also has been realised from a power point of veiw, being able to parrallel process with up to 16 cell chips would mean immense power and extra power can have many possibilities. See its all about opening the right doors, open one and you may open several others in the process its like what M$ did with the HDD, they opened that door and also opened internet and music without having to invest so much in opening the doors seperately. if you dont open it you will never know and if you open say a door that says "make the PS3 have wings" :lol: you have to deside the consequences. Sony opend the connectivity door and i hope it opens many more doors for them because its a great idea.

RPGDreamer
09-22-2006, 20:50
During a lengthy interview with IGN, Factor 5 President, Julian Eggebrecht revealed that Lair will also be running at 1080p, and that it will be running natively at that resolution. "Lair is not upscaling or cheating to get to 1080p, we are natively running at the full 1920x1080 progressive resolution. Earlier this year we were quite skeptical if that would be possible, but the final kits really were a revelation in terms of power," he answered.

Eggebrecht also announced that the entire game will run at 1080p, and that developers chose the resolution after comparing it with 720p. "We absolutely love 1080p because of the detail that you can see. When we went up from 720 to 1080 I was blown away how much more of the artwork was visible. We started out being true 720p proponents, but since switching over to true 1080p via HDMI a few months ago I can't go back," he said.

Having the PlayStation 3 support 1080p has been one of the most controversial decisions in the gaming world, although games announced to be running in that resolution are quite rare. Currently, the games which will be running at 1080p also include Virtua Tennis 3, SEGA's upcoming title.

More 1080p PlayStation 3 titles are expected to be announced, especially after developers get the hang of developing for the PlayStation 3 and can take more advantage of all that it offers.


Live: http://ps3land.com/article-751.php