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View Full Version : Should Sony break the deal/contract with Factor 5 ?



totobeni
08-31-2007, 05:00
note : not play with LAIR yet , wrote this based on so many reviews i read .


So , Factor 5 without Nintendo-hype and Nntendo Dedicated fans support and Nintendo worship media is just nothing , they waste like 20 million dollar from Sony in midecore game (based on game site & mag opinion ) .

now Factor 5 still on a deal or contract with sony fo two more games , do you honestly at this point think that SCEWW should continue the deal with Factor 5 ?

I Know , there still chances that Factor 5 is like Game Republic and thier next game will be very good like what Game Republic did with FolkSoul ?

but I think ,just in my own opinion .. Sony should break the deal immediately , it's already a big loss of money and the game caused a huge damages for PS3 , SCEWW and even the Sixaxis .

Why ? if you ask me

...Factor 5 and Silicon knight is overhyped and over rated in the past just because they work for Nintendo , we knew how powerful nintendo LOVE in the media , they overhyped anything from nintendo , just see Gamecube and WII games ..tonz of mediocre games that receive very high scores .

just see how Suda's grasshopper got ignored by media when he signed a deal with sony ( Blood+ ) and now how they hyped they guy just cuz he work on ninty games ,same story with Factor 5 and SK .


and for L.A.I.R ( sony own the IP ) there is other solution , they can give the IP to incognito to make L.A.I.R 2 with WARHAWK engine or give it to Studio liverpool ( who made first Drakan ) ...

other SCEWW first and 2nd dev deserve the money better than Factor 5 , Jaffe new team , Santa Monica , Insomniac , Level 5 , Studio liverpool , Polyphony digital ,incognito , ND ..ect

I know Phil is nice guy and love to keep Dev team with him , but when you give a team 20 million $ and 3 years then they gave you a bad game you should stop dealing with them anymore ..


for me i pre-ordred LAIR and it will be arrive soon to my house but it look it's medicore game at best , and if sony continues the deal with Factor 5 i will buy their games cuz i am a sony supporter ...

Lefein
08-31-2007, 05:02
People that let reviewers think for them make me sick.

Eric
08-31-2007, 05:04
Also, it's not about reviews, it's about sales. Frankly, game companies could care less if their game got all 3's as long as it sold well.

Stoffinator
08-31-2007, 05:04
Who says its Factor 5 fault? Could be Sony's with the tools. Who knows and this is only a first gen game. Most people who have it seem to enjoy it.

totobeni
08-31-2007, 05:04
People that let reviewers think for them make me sick.

learn to read the thread dude ...

well if you just freaking read the first line you will now that i talk about Sony/factor 5 relationship and not about LAIR itself ..

ShinMaruku
08-31-2007, 05:05
What Sony should do is let them take what ever the hell they got from LAIR and make Starwars game and make them make due with that. It's obvious they know the graphics now they should put substance and remember the value of choice and fine tune what they have to fine tune.
Me if they don't come up to snuff on their games I won't buy their games because Sony has better than that.

Loudninja
08-31-2007, 05:05
People that let reviewers think for them make me sick.

Yeah I agree,I guess us users do not matter, just because IGN saids something tis the golden truth.Really anyone who listen to reviews make me wnat to puke.It like you do not have a mind of your own.Anywar the game is already selling well it seem, most people did not listen, and I am glad for that.Laos what about user reviews?why did you only base it on site reviews?

Eric
08-31-2007, 05:06
learn to read the thread dude ...

well if you just freaking read the first line you will now that i talk about Sony/factor 5 relationship and not about LAIR itself ..

Learn to think outside the box dude...

This thread was probably made in response to IGN's Lair review.

totobeni
08-31-2007, 05:06
Who says its Factor 5 fault? Could be Sony's with the tools. Who knows and this is only a first gen game. Most people who have it seem to enjoy it.

well they 2nd party sony give them everything ...the same tool they gave Insomniac and in the ame time ( 2005 ) but with more money (way more ) than for R:FOM ..



Yeah I agree,I guess us users do not matter, just because IGN saids something tis the golden truth.Really anyone who listen to reviews make me wnat to puke.It like you do not have a mind of your own.Anywar the game is already selling well it seem, most people did not listen, and I am glad for that.Laos what about user reviews?why did you only base it on site reviews?

you can cheak my post history ..i'am last person who care about IGN ...anyway ..for 4th time ..i talk about Factor5-Sony not IGN/LAIR .

yet i do not like Nintendo since ever ( i am a honest guy ) so i think i still hold something in my heart on Nintendo or their old 2nd party ...


and Game Republic prove that they can restore our trust ..so maybe Factor 5 can do the same ? ?

Pandacraft
08-31-2007, 05:06
lair currently has the same ratings average of my favourite ps2 game of all time, which coincidently, also involved dragons.

the moral of the story? reviewers really don't speak for the entire gaming community.

1lyi1
08-31-2007, 05:07
I'm buying this no matter what reviews say.

Tyrien
08-31-2007, 05:10
People that let reviewers think for them make me sick.
It baffles my mind how people can actually read a review and walk away "Well I'm not buying this game now". Some even refusing to rent it on the same premise of what the almighty reviewer (who happens to be one of those pesky human being things who hardly ever are able to make an objective judgment on any single topic) has to say about the game.

seebs
08-31-2007, 05:12
Frankly, no, Sony shouldn't break a contract, because they already have a sorta dodgy reputation for how they handle contracts.

Lair was doing a number of new things, and I'd rather see a developer try to do something new, and not quite pull it off, than release yet another game functionally identical to a dozen others. I am more interested in finding out what Factor 5 does next than I am in finding out what Insomniac does next. RFOM may be a very good shooter, but it's pretty much cut and dried formula work. Lair may really be sorta lame in spots, but it looks like they made a real effort to do something new.

Any idiot can make a shooter that plays just like every other shooter, but has better graphics, given the PS3 to play with. I've never seen a particularly good dragonflight sim before.

faaeng
08-31-2007, 05:15
I say play the game before you judge it. You may like you may not. Also you say this topic is about sony and factor 5s relationship not about Lair. Yet the reason you second guess there relationship is because of reviews for Lair? So in the end. It's about Lair. Play the game. Then wirite about it. I never takes other peoples words/reviews for things. Everyones got there own tastes. Thats what makes us individuals. Don't just follow everyone esle. Be your own man.

ShinMaruku
08-31-2007, 05:17
They have a foundation that they can build on if they feel for it. It's never a waste as long as they can make good on the progress they had.

jphuff
08-31-2007, 05:24
The way people are talking here.... IS Lair onsale NOW as opposed to next week?

acaeus
08-31-2007, 05:24
Frankly, no, Sony shouldn't break a contract, because they already have a sorta dodgy reputation for how they handle contracts.

Lair was doing a number of new things, and I'd rather see a developer try to do something new, and not quite pull it off, than release yet another game functionally identical to a dozen others. I am more interested in finding out what Factor 5 does next than I am in finding out what Insomniac does next. RFOM may be a very good shooter, but it's pretty much cut and dried formula work. Lair may really be sorta lame in spots, but it looks like they made a real effort to do something new.

Any idiot can make a shooter that plays just like every other shooter, but has better graphics, given the PS3 to play with. I've never seen a particularly good dragonflight sim before.

Totally agree! Always thought motorstorm was 10x better than RFOM.

And concerning the importance of reviews, $50+ dollars to find out whether the reviewer is right is bit too much IMO. Give me a demo so I can find out if it works for me.

Also, Sony seems to be pushing too much for SIXAXIS use. It works in some games (such as Motorstorm and warhawk), it's gimmicky in others (RFOM didn't need it, for example).

sorrow880
08-31-2007, 05:27
I've never followed reviews...I review the games based on MY opinion. So many games get poor reviews but are true "jewels" e.g. .hack/G.U. series....
Anyhow, I don't think that Sony should break the deal with Factor 5--PS3 needs GAMES! Meaning many, many games even if they are "transformers" and "Pirates of the Caribbean" quality. Right now it needs QUANTITY...nobody will buy a ps3 when they see that the 360 section is 5x larger.


Give me a demo so I can find out if it works for me.Or just rent it for a few bucks.

seebs
08-31-2007, 05:28
Just from one of the generic minigames in Super Monkey Ball, I concluded that a tilt-based flight game COULD be excellent... And from another, I concluded that it COULD suck. I think it's one of those things you have to mess around with to get a feel for it. The one I liked was wiimote+nunchuk, and it helped that you could move them independently, but I still think sixaxis could be an awesome flight controller. I guess it depends on the game.

ShinMaruku
08-31-2007, 05:32
They just must change their execution and try it in a different way and in a different style.

elnino
08-31-2007, 05:37
Yeah I agree,I guess us users do not matter, just because IGN saids something tis the golden truth.Really anyone who listen to reviews make me wnat to puke...

Haven't you been spending most of the week posting every positive magazine or website review you can find for HS and Warhawk? Do people that listen to those reviews make you want to puke?

Aleman
08-31-2007, 05:40
Jeepers guys, reviews do mean something when a hyped first party game is getting 5-ish scores from major publications. No use downplaying that. It was obviously expected to score much better than that.

Sony should definitely rethink this relationship. I read that they dumped about $20 million into this, and if it really isn't a good game, it's probably not going to sell well.

Gero
08-31-2007, 05:40
LAIR IS on sale NOW. Crazy huh? I just learned about it today! Don't know what to do though. I'll wait for my cousin to buy it then I'll judge off that.

Idenowhereiam
08-31-2007, 05:43
The way people are talking here.... IS Lair onsale NOW as opposed to next week?

ummm in the us.. yea it is...

totobeni
08-31-2007, 05:47
Frankly, no, Sony shouldn't break a contract, because they already have a sorta dodgy reputation for how they handle contracts.

Lair was doing a number of new things, and I'd rather see a developer try to do something new, and not quite pull it off, than release yet another game functionally identical to a dozen others. I am more interested in finding out what Factor 5 does next than I am in finding out what Insomniac does next. RFOM may be a very good shooter, but it's pretty much cut and dried formula work. Lair may really be sorta lame in spots, but it looks like they made a real effort to do something new.

Any idiot can make a shooter that plays just like every other shooter, but has better graphics, given the PS3 to play with. I've never seen a particularly good dragonflight sim before.

it's a big gamble for Sony ya know ...after Genji 2 no one believe that GR can do a good game ..yet Folksoul is amazing...but not genji 2 or Folk cost 20 million $

they just got that dodgy reputation recently , just like S.K ..i think it's a curse maybe ? but both F5 and SK got the most hate and bad reputation after leaving nintendo ..before it was forbidden to criticise them

and for Insomniac , i disagree ...Insomniac is better and more original and talented than Factor 5 ...

i now think that after 10 years of same game ( star wars ) Factor 5 need to try something new , something not have anything to do with flying ..

Aleman
08-31-2007, 05:53
Yep, they should re-allocate more resources to Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Team ICO, and Incognito.

majinvegeta
08-31-2007, 05:58
note : not play with LAIR yet , wrote this based on so many reviews i read .


So , Factor 5 without Nintendo-hype and Nntendo Dedicated fans support and Nintendo worship media is just nothing , they waste like 20 million dollar from Sony in midecore game (based on game site & mag opinion ) .

now Factor 5 still on a deal or contract with sony fo two more games , do you honestly at this point think that SCEWW should continue the deal with Factor 5 ?

I Know , there still chances that Factor 5 is like Game Republic and thier next game will be very good like what Game Republic did with FolkSoul ?

but I think ,just in my own opinion .. Sony should break the deal immediately , it's already a big loss of money and the game caused a huge damages for PS3 , SCEWW and even the Sixaxis .

Why ? if you ask me

...Factor 5 and Silicon knight is overhyped and over rated in the past just because they work for Nintendo , we knew how powerful nintendo LOVE in the media , they overhyped anything from nintendo , just see Gamecube and WII games ..tonz of mediocre games that receive very high scores .

just see how Suda's grasshopper got ignored by media when he signed a deal with sony ( Blood+ ) and now how they hyped they guy just cuz he work on ninty games ,same story with Factor 5 and SK .


and for L.A.I.R ( sony own the IP ) there is other solution , they can give the IP to incognito to make L.A.I.R 2 with WARHAWK engine or give it to Studio liverpool ( who made first Drakan ) ...

other SCEWW first and 2nd dev deserve the money better than Factor 5 , Jaffe new team , Santa Monica , Insomniac , Level 5 , Studio liverpool , Polyphony digital ,incognito , ND ..ect

I know Phil is nice guy and love to keep Dev team with him , but when you give a team 20 million $ and 3 years then they gave you a bad game you should stop dealing with them anymore ..


for me i pre-ordred LAIR and it will be arrive soon to my house but it look it's medicore game at best , and if sony continues the deal with Factor 5 i will buy their games cuz i am a sony supporter ...

Thats not how you deal with failed innovation. If you take business management you will learn that that is the worst way to deal with this. If you start firing people because they do a poor job, they will create fear that their ideas may lead to their exit out of the company. This leads to fewer idea, less openness in the company and makes things a lot worse. So you will damage the innovation culture in the company.

So its ok, sometimes innovation fails, and you just have to get back up and try again. The best Sony can do is give positive and specific feedback to say what was good and what was not and Factor 5 should look into improving itself. Now of course, if the company continues to be an ass, does not improve, does not respect policies then yes you should fire them because you now have a valid and good reason to fire someone. But one should not be fired for doing a poor job, you should first try to help improve their performance, there is always things going on in the background, and those things can affect the performance of an employee or a company as a whole even.

Although I never read reviews, I can see a lot of people complain about the low mark / rank that the game got. I suggest rent it, try it out, and if you like it, buy it, otherwise forget it. I don't like reviews because its just an opinion of a person, there is no such thing as "Experienced Gamer" or "PROFESSIONAL GAMER" thats just ridiculous bull crap. Everyone is a gamer, just depends on your interests, and those interests lead to different opinions.

ShinMaruku
08-31-2007, 05:59
I think those guys have more resources as they are in the Sony umbrella already.

Organic_Shadow
08-31-2007, 06:01
I think Sony should hang onto Factor-5, because something awesome always happens when a game company takes on a genre they've never tackled before. Factor-5 could decide to make a game in a genre they haven't done before, and just completely blow us away.

ShinMaruku
08-31-2007, 06:03
What they have cna be made into gold so they should be held on.

agentorange
08-31-2007, 06:06
I remember how arrogant the devs of lari when they said they have better visuals and more polygons than gears of war and they even bash Oblivion that they have better environment and folliage system. Now look. I lost my confidence on them and they ate there word. Sony should abandon this guys especially not including a multiplayer functions

seebs
08-31-2007, 06:07
It may be a big gamble, but the way to earn a reputation for fair dealing is not to bug out of a contract halfway through.

Maybe Insomniac's more creative the rest of the time, and RFOM was just a formula piece because they were focused on getting used to the hardware -- not a bad choice. Still, it's got nothing to show me, and Lair at least looked like an attempt to do something new.

Aleman
08-31-2007, 06:08
Thing is that Factor 5 is already an established developer. They have no excuses for putting out a poor effort. They were given lots of cash and expectations were not met.

And majinvegeta, they were not innovating based on the reviews I've read. Sounds like it plays like their Rogue Squadron games, same mission format and all. A new control scheme isn't all that innovative.

coolguy
08-31-2007, 06:08
sony should not break the contract with factor 5.
factor 5 made some bad mistakes with the game.
like not haveing thumb stick flying the dragons. they took that out for
some reason. and there aiming was wacked i think they get 3 graders
make this game the gxf are stunning. but the game play suxs.
they should have put more in to game play and conrtolls

acmtalk
08-31-2007, 06:09
well, reviews, DO have some truth in it, In lair's case, I know I won't buy it, Just because of the controls, sorry But I just sux with the motion sensor, with 20 million as a budge, I think it's not much to ask for an option to use a "clasic" control scheme uh?, + where is the demo? the game is right around the corner and there is no demo for us to try it?

acmtalk
08-31-2007, 06:11
and Yeah I think sony should hang on to factor 5, we can use all the games that we can get.

seebs
08-31-2007, 06:12
Thing is that Factor 5 is already an established developer.

But not one with much prior PS3 experience.


They have no excuses for putting out a poor effort. They were given lots of cash and expectations were not met.

I've noticed a lot of games seem to be some combination of:
* Obviously rushed.
* Much delayed.
* Very formulaic.

I suspect that it's taking people a while to get their Cell legs.

The thing is, real innovation means that you make ten games, and nine of them come out as crap. But the other one? It's worth more than twenty games that didn't take risks.

I don't like the way everyone's jumping on them because their game ended up falling short. They shot for the stars, and I guess they missed. Okay, that happens sometimes. It's what the industry needs, nonetheless; games that aren't just the same old stuff rehashed.

dead_zen
08-31-2007, 06:12
I think some people are jumping the gun here. Especially with out playing the game.

Alpha2
08-31-2007, 06:13
F5 is still a very competent company, just because a few lame reviewers dont like the game dosent mean it's so horrible that Sony should never work with them again. That's a ridiculous hysterical reaction to a game not living up to the hype. If that were the rulling mentality you;d never see a Halo3. You cannot base a companies future on the first game they make for your system.

You may base this on a few horribly written reviews that do nothing but focus on minimally effecting issues but how about the few reviews that give it 8 out of 10 or 4.5 out of 5? you're discounting the good entirely based on the bad and the bad barely has much of a leg to stand on.

Aleman
08-31-2007, 06:14
I don't like the way everyone's jumping on them because their game ended up falling short. They shot for the stars, and I guess they missed. Okay, that happens sometimes. It's what the industry needs, nonetheless; games that aren't just the same old stuff rehashed.

Thing is that it doesn't seem like they shot for the stars. Sounds like it plays like Rogue Squadron with dragons and they focused on the eye candy rather than the gameplay.

bobtheduck
08-31-2007, 06:15
People that let reviewers think for them make me sick.


Yeah...

Speaking of reviews, I'm gonna post one up soon./irony

I'm loving this game so far... the second level (the first being the ring thing) was trash, the third was mediocre, and the fourth was epic...

seebs
08-31-2007, 06:24
Thing is that it doesn't seem like they shot for the stars. Sounds like it plays like Rogue Squadron with dragons and they focused on the eye candy rather than the gameplay.

I don't think so at all. Having the dragon steer itself, even a little, is a major shift in design. It sounds to me like they tried to really pull off a dragon dogfighting game, with new controls, new AI, and about 8 other things... And it didn't quite come together.

That happens. It's still an awfully cool game concept. Go look at all the posts before the bad reviews came out, and look how hyped people were about it... That, I think, is at least partially because it was clear that they were trying to do something really different.

I hate the way people are so quick to turn on devs. I guess it's because I'm a programmer, and I know how this kind of thing happens. Everyone's so quick to call people names. Think a heterogeneous multicore environment's harder than a single core? That makes people who have never so much as opened a debugger call you lazy, and make snide remarks about how you should go back to DOS, since you're too stupid to learn modern techniques. Concerned about the memory overhead of the OS, and how you're going to allocate streaming buffers efficiently? That pretty much proves you're a moron who could NEVER have made it in the old days (that being the old days when your games sold a million units and more because you do, in fact, know what you're doing). Your game's attempt to make use of an experimental feature tacked onto the controller months after you started development doesn't come out smooth as silk? You're a moron for even trying.

This kind of thing does not encourage developers to take risks and make games worth playing. Luckily, for the most part, developers know better than to take fanboy feedback seriously, but it's still a royal pain.

When I talk to programmers about the PS3, one of the first stories I always tell them is how I saw PS3 fans calling John Carmack and Gabe Newell idiots, morons, lazy, and incapable of learning or understanding new technologies. (It's the game junkies who usually get the extra joke -- Carmack was the first person to do a multicore-optimized 3D engine, so far as I know, and did it long before the PS3 shipped.)

This is just more of the same. It can never be Sony's tools, or difficulties from what is, after all, one of the most challenging programming environments I've ever seen. It can never be that sometimes you try something and it just doesn't come together. No, every game that doesn't wow the reviewers is proof of lazy programmers who aren't trying to do their jobs. Every developer who doesn't endorse whatever system people are fans of gets called names -- I'm sure there were people bitching about David Braben when he dissed the Wii. For cryin' out loud, I'm moving, and I just found the box to Elite II for the Amiga. I'm not throwing that away; that man's a genius, and that I disagree with his evaluation of a single console does not suddenly mean that anyone else I have ever heard of could have programmed Elite II, or Elite for that matter.

BlindSight
08-31-2007, 06:27
I don't Sony can get their money back on such a deal. :lol:


No they shouldn't though, there are a ton of great things that could be said about Lair. Its just the controls they messed up on and gameplay is kind repetitive. Who is to say their next game will be the same. Their next game might have the great graphics, sound, and story that Lair had, but also great gameplay.

They have balls for doing what they did with Lair. (working so **** hard on the graphics, sound, and scale. +Standard motion control )

I like devs who take risks.

totobeni
08-31-2007, 06:27
Jeepers guys, reviews do mean something when a hyped first party game is getting 5-ish scores from major publications. No use downplaying that. It was obviously expected to score much better than that.

Sony should definitely rethink this relationship. I read that they dumped about $20 million into this, and if it really isn't a good game, it's probably not going to sell well.

yeah and unlike HS or Warhawks no one gave it a good score ..


Yep, they should re-allocate more resources to Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Team ICO, and Incognito.

yeah SCEJ , Team siren , Santa monica and any other SCEWW teams..


Thing is that Factor 5 is already an established developer. They have no excuses for putting out a poor effort. They were given lots of cash and expectations were not met.

And majinvegeta, they were not innovating based on the reviews I've read. Sounds like it plays like their Rogue Squadron games, same mission format and all. A new control scheme isn't all that innovative.


and yet in Warhawks it's perfect ( motion control ) why ? Warhawks no cost 20 million , poor guy just cut the SP ..if they had 20 million i think they will give us a SP and MP Wowhawk ..



sony should not break the contract with factor 5.
factor 5 made some bad mistakes with the game.
like not haveing thumb stick flying the dragons. they took that out for
some reason. and there aiming was wacked i think they get 3 graders
make this game the gxf are stunning. but the game play suxs.
they should have put more in to game play and conrtolls

the thing is ...since fisrt show of the game there was alot of criticism on it the control the ground battle ..yet factor 5 do nothin at all to fix this ..

just look how incognito fixed the control ( remember the first show ? it was embarrassing) ..why Factor 5 can't ? did they want more 20 million or something ?




Thats not how you deal with failed innovation. If you take business management you will learn that that is the worst way to deal with this. If you start firing people because they do a poor job, they will create fear that their ideas may lead to their exit out of the company. This leads to fewer idea, less openness in the company and makes things a lot worse. So you will damage the innovation culture in the company.

So its ok, sometimes innovation fails, and you just have to get back up and try again. The best Sony can do is give positive and specific feedback to say what was good and what was not and Factor 5 should look into improving itself. Now of course, if the company continues to be an ass, does not improve, does not respect policies then yes you should fire them because you now have a valid and good reason to fire someone. But one should not be fired for doing a poor job, you should first try to help improve their performance, there is always things going on in the background, and those things can affect the performance of an employee or a company as a whole even.

Although I never read reviews, I can see a lot of people complain about the low mark / rank that the game got. I suggest rent it, try it out, and if you like it, buy it, otherwise forget it. I don't like reviews because its just an opinion of a person, there is no such thing as "Experienced Gamer" or "PROFESSIONAL GAMER" thats just ridiculous bull crap. Everyone is a gamer, just depends on your interests, and those interests lead to different opinions.



it's a a clone of their N64/Cube games with dragons , plus huge load of money and super powerful system and 3 years ...

years ago they (factyor-5 ) blamed Lucas Arts for the rushing the games and frame rate , i hope they don't drop it on sony this time





I don't think so at all. Having the dragon steer itself, even a little, is a major shift in design. It sounds to me like they tried to really pull off a dragon dogfighting game, with new controls, new AI, and about 8 other things... And it didn't quite come together.

That happens. It's still an awfully cool game concept. Go look at all the posts before the bad reviews came out, and look how hyped people were about it... That, I think, is at least partially because it was clear that they were trying to do something really different.

.

did you play Drakan 1 ( Psygnosis ) or 2 ? they do Dragon VS Dragon in cool way..with just lock on it was just simple .

LAIR not new idea ..Drakan was here before it ..and it plays flying dragons and foot battels too ..

cameltoe
08-31-2007, 06:32
I'm buying this no matter what reviews say.

Amen....

It looks amazing.......

cameltoe
08-31-2007, 06:43
they focused on the eye candy rather than the gameplay.

Sounds like Gears to me......8)

SilverSurfie
08-31-2007, 06:44
Factor 5 is developing White Knight Story... Soooo I say no to Sony breaking contract.

BadAndy
08-31-2007, 06:44
Yep, they should re-allocate more resources to Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Team ICO, and Incognito.

Twisted Metal pls, kthnx

But seriously it is a gamble, Ill have to see how Lair turns out, Ill give it a rent. More looking forward to HS and R&C ToD.

Alpha2
08-31-2007, 06:47
Sony see something in then and they think with time they can be an asset. Just because the media over hyped this game and then trashed it in the end dosent make the company bad. They managed to show they have skill in pushing the system they just need slightly better focus for their next project.

The game is still going to sell a million copies regardless. there'll be some people who like it and some who hate it just like every other game in existance.

Panda Bear Shenyu
08-31-2007, 06:55
Yes, Sony should break the deal with Factor 5...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c33/Shenyu666/1172114552109fb4.jpg

Alpha2
08-31-2007, 06:56
Factor 5 is developing White Knight Story... Soooo I say no to Sony breaking contract.

Actually White Knight Story is LEVEL 5 not FACTOR 5.

One is a japanese dev the other is european.

bobtheduck
08-31-2007, 06:57
Yes, Sony should break the deal with Factor 5...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c33/Shenyu666/1172114552109fb4.jpg

I'm guessing the picard face was sarcasm?

This game is pretty good, so far...

skarekrow
08-31-2007, 07:04
Thing is that Factor 5 is already an established developer. They have no excuses for putting out a poor effort. They were given lots of cash and expectations were not met.

And majinvegeta, they were not innovating based on the reviews I've read. Sounds like it plays like their Rogue Squadron games, same mission format and all. A new control scheme isn't all that innovative.

Im glad you said this, so what you mean to tell me is that Halo should get poor scores and the Wii isnt innovative after all... or does type of thoughts only pertain to the PS3 and its games.. the reason why I ask, is because over in the 360 section... Halo gets a good score, a few people disagree and get bashed because thats how halo is suppose to look or thats halo is suppose to play... but if it was on the PS3 its average score time.

And well, you said it yourself... A new control scheme is not innovative therefore reviewers should be throwing down 1 and 2's on games like Mario Party and Super Smash Bros as they practically have the same game play as well as the same graphics but with a new control scheme.

Now, Im not calling you a hypocrite and im certainly not trying to start a flame war, but you brought something up that has been bothering me for awhile and just wanted to make a point. It seems there is a double standard afoot in the industry and it seems its highly unjustified. Im not a sony fanboy, but you can tell sony is putting every resource into making the ps3 the best it can be and no matter what they do (as Jay would say) "The whole ****ing worlds against them dude, I swear to god".

Aleman
08-31-2007, 07:08
Im glad you said this, so what you mean to tell me is that Halo should get poor scores and the Wii isnt innovative after all... or does type of thoughts only pertain to the PS3 and its games.. the reason why I ask, is because over in the 360 section... Halo gets a good score, a few people disagree and get bashed because thats how halo is suppose to look or thats halo is suppose to play... but if it was on the PS3 its average score time.

And well, you said it yourself... A new control scheme is not innovative therefore reviewers should be throwing down 1 and 2's on games like Mario Party and Super Smash Bros as they practically have the same game play as well as the same graphics but with a new control scheme.

Now, Im not calling you a hypocrite and im certainly not trying to start a flame war, but you brought something up that has been bothering me for awhile and just wanted to make a point. It seems there is a double standard afoot in the industry and it seems its highly unjustified. Im not a sony fanboy, but you can tell sony is putting every resource into making the ps3 the best it can be and no matter what they do (as Jay would say) "The whole ****ing worlds against them dude, I swear to god".

I'm not saying anything bad about Sony or the PS3. I'm just disappointed in Lair as a game. I love my PS3... Warhawk is the best game I've played this generation and Super Stardust is addictive as hell. Calling it like I see it.

Double standard or not, Lair doesn't look like it's even close to living up to the hype. When I first saw it last year I said it would be the game that would make me buy another PS3, so naturally I'm not happy that it didn't turn out as well as it could have.

And I wasn't trying to imply that a game has to be innovative to be good even though I probably came off that way. I play lots of non-innovative games regularly :)

seebs
08-31-2007, 07:09
I agree, it's not living up to the hype. But the thing is, the hype was a target worth aiming for. If they'd pulled it off, it would have been an incredible system seller. As is, maybe next time... But if you punish people for taking risks, you end up with nothing new to play, because everyone's afraid to take risks.

Aleman
08-31-2007, 07:14
I agree, it's not living up to the hype. But the thing is, the hype was a target worth aiming for. If they'd pulled it off, it would have been an incredible system seller. As is, maybe next time... But if you punish people for taking risks, you end up with nothing new to play, because everyone's afraid to take risks.

Well that's where I'm going to have to disagree for now, cause from what I've read it doesn't seem like they took many risks in the sense that despite the larger scale and motion-based control scheme, many reviewers have said it plays like a Rogue Squadron game. And I looked up Factor 5's web site and found that 4 out of their 5 games before Lair were Star Wars flight games, each very similar to each other.

I shouldn't be judging games before I play them but I can't help be disappointed when a hyped first party title that I've been looking forward to for a year is getting 5/10 scores from sources I follow.

skarekrow
08-31-2007, 07:19
I'm not saying anything bad about Sony or the PS3. I'm just disappointed in Lair. I love my PS3... Warhawk is the best game I've played this generation and Super Stardust is addictive as hell. Calling it like I see it.

Double standard or not, Lair doesn't look like it's even close to living up to the hype. When I first saw it last year I said it would be the game that would make me buy another PS3, so naturally I'm not happy that it didn't turn out as well as it could have.

I know, im not pin pointing you at all. Its a common train of thought this generation it seems and it bothers me. Not because of the people that say it, but because this is what the media leads you to believe.
In all honesty, the same things that are being praised on another console are being bashed on another and without the media starting rumors and causing havok amongst gamers, PS3 games would be getting **** good scores right there with 360 scores.
Instead a company that's (for the most part) trying to do us right is being dumped on and whats more bothersome than that is that its not just the Sony getting dumped on, but the game developers as well. These people pour their heart and soul into their games and make them the best that they can for the gamers and their work of art is being drug under because its on a specific console. Heavenly Sword would have easily got a perfect score had it been on the xbox as it was intended to be, but instead its dealing with mixed reviews because a fan base is larger.

I cant comment on Lair as im glad I cancelled my preorder and got warhawk instead and chances are I wont buy the game at all because of F5's constant delays but it seems like every "non professional gamer" that has reviewed it is enjoying it.

totobeni
08-31-2007, 07:21
Twisted Metal pls, kthnx

But seriously it is a gamble, Ill have to see how Lair turns out, Ill give it a rent. More looking forward to HS and R&C ToD.


well yeah sometimes they had big hits with 2nd party ..

but time has changed , they should focus on their big franchises for now before the new

it they put their 20 million ( LAIR ) and the other 20 million ( HS) to secure having games like like Twisted Metal , God of War 3 , Wild Arms , Siren 3 in first year then PS3 will be doing better by now .

they (Phil ) chose new titles and new dev teams ...when MS and Nintendo was even force devs to trans big games from old system to new systems ( Perfect dark kameo from x to x360 , Zelda , Mario paper from cube to wii ..ect ) just to have strong launch and strong first year .

it's not Phil fault , but did sony have a testers and quality teams or not ? you should not put your money blindlessly on 2nd party dev hands..when your 1st party dev deserve and needed it more ..

skarekrow
08-31-2007, 07:30
well yeah sometimes they had big hits with 2nd party ..

but time has changed , they should focus on their big franchises for now before the new

it they put their 20 million ( LAIR ) and the other 20 million ( HS) to secure having games like like Twisted Metal , God of War 3 , Wild Arms , Siren 3 in first year then PS3 will be doing better by now .

they (Phil ) chose new titles and new dev teams ...when MS and Nintendo was even force devs to trans big games from old system to new systems ( Perfect dark kameo from x to x360 , Zelda , Mario paper from cube to wii ..ect ) just to have strong launch and strong first year .

it's not Phil fault , but did sony have a testers and quality teams or not ? you should not put your money blindlessly on 2nd party dev hands..when your 1st party dev deserve and needed it more ..

And then we would still be waiting on ONE good game as Resistance would have probably sucked not too mention not even out yet, I would be waiting on God of War 3 instead of playing WarHawk and we would be dealing with sequel after sequel instead of new ips like Uncharted or Eight Days.

Its a gamble, you take riskes. You win some, you lose some but I think the whole deal with F5 comes more from their delays than anything. If they would have released it when it was suppose to release, even if it was in march... I think everyone would have been ecstatic and it would have received much higher scores. Them delaying it time after time, drove the hype way down, pissed a lot of people of and in the end, made the dev team a few enemies, me included.

FenrirVII
08-31-2007, 07:36
Im sorry if im not the first to point out, but these recent reviewees of ALL games including Lair (which this thread was obviously created in response there of), and Blue Dragon, These Reviewers SUCK.. Very much so. I meah what in the hell... Calling lair a stripped down normal FPS? ARE THEY OUT OF THEIR MIND? Im sorry if i dont pick up my sniper rifle and soar across the map releasing fires of hell rain down on thousands of soldiers during my Normal FPS gaming streak.... freakin morons... Thats the pack of reviewers that we gamers have been reduced to, Theyre all a bunch of biased morons that think they know gamer's best and see it fit to judge a game based on their retarded logic. Good Review = promote the good mention the bad, Bad Review = promote the bad, mention the good. It works because if theres Less good than Bad then the good is concentrated on but not mocked Unlike the latter way, which is like all of the reviews recently. I dont even see it fit to read some of those...reviews.... just to see little blur of the game. Some of them sound more like hate mail for all games in general, Recently the Only Decent review was for Bioshock, yet all the reviews praised were its graphics Soundtrack and storyline... You know.. not even talking about how awesome all the approaches to gameplay and ways to get things done... and rather concentrate/praise the elder scrolls copied piece of CRAP kind of weapons and attacks etc. Our so called "reviewers" are idiots, it just takes us readers to realize that. Im not saying Lair is Awesome nor horrible, Im just saying That If you trust a Reviewer who says Lair is a normal everyday FPS, or tries to compare Blue Dragon to FF's (and so deem themselves reason to give it a horrible score..) Then you my friends are stupid :(

As for Lair, The game should still do pretty ok, why break up anything at all? Any real Point behind creating this thread without Regard to Lair?

ghost_in_the_darkness
08-31-2007, 07:39
I dont think they should break ties but maybe put their next game through more tests. I got Lair today. Visually the game is top notch. It has some frame rate issues a few times but nothing that made the game up playable or significant. Sound is good. Presentation is very good with the menu and such.

Gameplay is where they have problems. Yes the sixaxis should have an alternate control scheme of using the sticks but it just isnt that. The lock on feature doesn't always go on the object you want it to go and some actions in the game are not always recognized (not just motion sensing but others like landing) This game is a perfect example of a Great game gone bad. Has awesome graphics, sound, presentation, but it seems no one besides the dev team, who came accustomed to the sixaxis, ever played it and told the devs to change things. Their should have been missions like where you had to get the dragon to actually go inside something like a castle or cave or a mission where you were seperated from the dragon and had to escape a prison or something.

If they would have put in the analog sticks and worked out the lock on targeting system and made the dragon fights more brutal then this game would have been awesome! Can they patch controls?

testiculus_maximus
08-31-2007, 07:46
i wouldn't base too much on reviews, some people may like it, but some don't. Its just like saying XPLAY gave PS3 3 out of 5.

Hussaro
08-31-2007, 07:54
Sales are what matters, not reviews.

SillyHatMafia
08-31-2007, 07:59
Nah. IGn's big complaint was controls. Here's how to solve it: Patch it to allow Analog. You may not want too, but peopel clearly dont like it. Just do it.

bobtheduck
08-31-2007, 08:07
Who knows, maybe they'll be a patch in the next month that will give it analog controls to shut up all you whiners... Then maybe the game will get the attention it deserves...

I heard people complain about tilt on motorstorm, too... That proves people are just wanting to hate the sixaxis... I don't use the sticks on motorstorm... I use tilt...

punkpigpen
08-31-2007, 08:18
they should not break the deal. no way...they should hire factor 5 to create the next Star Wars Rogue Squdron!!!

GS kid
08-31-2007, 08:21
This isn't really Sony's fault or Factor 5's fault (for the most part).... but the fault of overzealous Sony fans that had every upcoming PS3 game as AAA titles including ones that were totally new IPs. And all this looooooong before they were out.

The higher you raise something, the harder it falls if it doesn't live up to the hype. Had you guys not hyped this game to insane levels, people would be looking at this game with clearer eyes and wouldn't be complaining nearly as much as some are now.

On the 360, the hyped game that didn't quite live up was Blue Dragon. Not a bad game, but people were expecting a little more. But it's hype pales in comparison to Lair's hype on these forums. Nobody on the 360 side was trashing Mistwalker or calling for it's head after the game was less then stellar.

The moral of the story is.... expect nothing, hope for the best. It's ok to look forward to a game and hope it is a good game. But when you hype it to death and to insane levels, you are only setting yourself up for a fall if it doesn't live up to that hype. :???:


Ok....so it doesn't seem to have lived up to the hype......get over it! Now that we got that out of the way..... is it really that bad of a game?!?! I mean come on.... it seems to be a decent game. At least give it a rent to find out. Let's not crucify it or call for contract breaking on Sony's part. That's just a tad overboard don't you think?!?! :suspect:

SillyHatMafia
08-31-2007, 08:24
This isn't really Sony's fault or Factor 5's fault (for the most part).... but the fault of overzealous Sony fans that had every upcoming PS3 game as AAA titles including ones that were totally new IPs. And all this looooooong before they were out.

The higher you raise something, the harder it falls if it doesn't live up to the hype. Had you guys not hyped this game to insane levels, people would be looking at this game with clearer eyes and wouldn't be complaining nearly as much as some are now.

On the 360, the hyped game that didn't quite live up was Blue Dragon. Not a bad game, but people were expecting a little more. But it's hype pales in comparison to Lair's hype on these forums. Nobody on the 360 side was trashing Mistwalker or calling for it's head after the game was less then stellar.

The moral of the story is.... expect nothing, hope for the best. It's ok to look forward to a game and hope it is a good game. But when you hype it to death and to insane levels, you are only setting yourself up for a fall if it doesn't live up to that hype. :???:


Ok....so it doesn't seem to have lived up to the hype......get over it! Now that we got that out of the way..... is it really that bad of a game?!?! I mean come on.... it seems to be a decent game. At least give it a rent to find out. Let's not crucify it or call for contract breaking on Sony's part. That's just a tad overboard don't you think?!?! :suspect:
yea that sounds about right. I expected Warhawk to be decent. It blew my mind. I didnt expect Lair to be AAA, but good. if i get used to the controls, sounds like its a decent game.

zeonpilot
08-31-2007, 08:31
Yeah I agree,I guess us users do not matter, just because IGN saids something tis the golden truth.Really anyone who listen to reviews make me wnat to puke.It like you do not have a mind of your own.Anywar the game is already selling well it seem, most people did not listen, and I am glad for that.Laos what about user reviews?why did you only base it on site reviews?

Thats why I'm picking up tomorrow preordered. I know I popped off on that other tread but I was just venting. I've never listened to critics in all my years of gaming. I cant even count how many great gaming experiences I would have missed out on if I had listened to the critics. I'm not expecting a AAA blockbuster just a fun game with a cool story.

Alpha2
08-31-2007, 08:54
The hype was more generated by the media. They've been playing and testing the game for months longer that the single day or even half a day it seems to have been on sale for regular consumers and in all that time the controls have NEVER been an issue to them but yet they kept pumping it up and NOW people have a problem with it.

That's not what the Fans did, the Fans only sat back an ingested all they had to say and not a bit of it was distasteful until now when it matters most.

TzarChasm
08-31-2007, 09:02
All I can say is that Lair is getting crucified in the reviews, and Heavenly Sword's been far from the 9.0-10.0 mark consistently. If Uncharted, Rachet and Clank, Killzone 2, and quite a few other games don't pull a lot more weight than expected, the PS3 is probably going to suffer for it.

I'm honestly starting to lose confidence in my console of choice this generation, and I never believed I would say that.

Alpha2
08-31-2007, 09:06
Then sell it to someone who IS sure because there are plenty of people who arn't going to let a couple of wishy washy game reviews tarnish what really is a good system.

TzarChasm
08-31-2007, 09:11
You make it sound like I've given up entirely, or that I don't deserve it for being honest about the situation: we're not down and out here, but Sony's facing a hideous amount of opposition this round, and very few devs have delivered the goods so far.

I see the potential in the box, and I'm waiting for it to be unleashed, but it needs to start coming soon. I spend most of my time playing single-player Diablo II these days...

Colsworl™
08-31-2007, 09:11
I'm honestly starting to lose confidence in my console of choice this generation, and I never believed I would say that.
I thought of that earlier this year but not after E3, there is a huge array of games on ps3, heck most of the big games are on ps3. I'm very happy with my purchase. As for your sig, I highly disagree but that is a debate for another time.

As for this review, yeah it is poor but I never was interested in this game even if it was getting 10/10 reviews.

godofspeed
08-31-2007, 09:42
Maybe because lair is the first game that uses the six-axis for the whole game, and the reviewers never tried that b4 for a game, it's like a complete new thing for the ps3.

I am sure that if they had a option like warhawk, that u can use the motion sensing or the analog stick, the score will be much better.

bobtheduck
08-31-2007, 09:43
Still astonishes me that so many that haven't played this game are already writing it off as a disaster on the first day of its release...

zeonpilot
08-31-2007, 09:49
Still astonishes me that so many that haven't played this game are already writing it off as a disaster on the first day of its release...

I'm not sure if that shows the power of the press to influence perception or the inability of people to think for themselves. Maybe its both.

jlippone
08-31-2007, 09:54
they should not break the deal. no way...they should hire factor 5 to create the next Star Wars Rogue Squdron!!!
It would be nice, but I would prefer them to dig trough their old good Amiga IPs and make a proper Turrican for ps3.

GS kid
08-31-2007, 10:00
Still astonishes me that so many that haven't played this game are already writing it off as a disaster on the first day of its release...

And thus you know how the 360 fan felt here when Sony fans were writing off the 360 a full 6 months before it was in our hands. And not just a few of them...A LOT of them. Welcome to our world.....circa May 2005. :no

mastershake86
08-31-2007, 10:05
If we are going to blame anyone after reading reviews i go with sony. It isn't factor 5's fault sony decided to use sixaxis which suxaxis :)

MEMEROOT
08-31-2007, 10:09
Who ever said the game MUST use motion control is to blame. I bet that was sony trying to jsutify motion control and no rumble. Factor 5 were excited and decided to go with it (and the csh) only to find that it sucked but though were alowed to swap it out for land wern't for the whole game.

Warhawk also sucked at one point in its lifecycle and went through a serious redesign, some would say HS isn't all that might have been hoped - though seems to be ok(ish) now.

I would say sony chose badly HS, made a game saving decision Warhawk and f***cked it up lair

Me_Becoming_I
08-31-2007, 10:22
Absolutely not. Factor 5 is a great developer. They just need to re-adjust the focus a little bit. Factor 5 at the moment, is a company that has the technical ability to create unbelievable visual experiences, and at the moment, not gameplay. All they need to do is re-adjust the focus a little bit. Put a little bit more emphasis on the game itself, rather than the visuals.

Now, don't take that as a knock against great visuals or anything, but in Factor 5's case, they need to push that away a little bit. They are too focused on creating the best visual experience possible, and that needs to change. To me, Sony may be partly to blame for the Lair's horrible critical reception, as this to me, seems like Sony's bargaining chip to prove that the PS3 is more powerful than the 360. It wasn't about gameplay from the beginning. Factor 5 has always been known as a technical company, and I'm sure Sony used this as their tool. It worked, as I've yet to see a game on the 360 come close to Lair's visuals or scale.

However, Sony needs to keep Factor 5 around, because they are at least willing to try something new. I'm really excited to see their PlayStation Network title. Finish the last two games, and then evaluate Factor 5.

I like them, and I want to see them stay around.

JordanL
08-31-2007, 10:49
Jesus Christ. You guys on this forum never cease to amaze me.

Dr.Drake
08-31-2007, 10:54
No. Sony have enough bad press as is. Factor 5 may have screwed up, but it's their first try with the PS3 and they were trying to do something completely new. I'd also like to know how all of a sudden the jury's out on LAIR, as if reviews actually matter if you wanted the game beforehand. Rent it, return it if you don't like it. Reviews have only mattered to me if I was on the fence.

I'm sure Factor 5 have learned from LAIR the ins and outs of the PlayStation 3. It's a matter of time before we see their second attempt, we know they'll do a better job.

JordanL
08-31-2007, 10:55
This thread is going nowhere fast. I question whether such a topic can be made while sober.

Locked.