Reuters - Sony Are One Point Away From Junk

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Originally Posted by silvermanor2

This dosent even get into the stellar year its Music and Movie divisions have had.

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their music division is getting a lot worse and has been since the mid to late 90's. many bands to this day had to drop and while a lot of bands have dropped Sony's label, they are still relying on old music. their new line up sucks, while system of a down is good, the label is kind of holding them back. As for new bands and singer of today, they need to pick up the slack a bit but they aren't. I know many bands today that had to drop from their label and they are much better off with their current label. lol

as for music, the point is, is their music devision needs A LOT of help cause I can already tell within a few years they will be in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Bigdoggy

their music division is getting a lot worse and has been since the mid to late 90's. many bands to this day had to drop and while a lot of bands have dropped Sony's label, they are still relying on old music. their new line up sucks, while system of a down is good, the label is kind of holding them back. As for new bands and singer of today, they need to pick up the slack a bit but they aren't. I know many bands today that had to drop from their label and they are much better off with their current label. lol

as for music, the point is, is their music devision needs A LOT of help cause I can already tell within a few years they will be in trouble.

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I really think you are referring to your personal taste
The biggest selling artists at the moment are on the Sony label, if those artists are good or not is a different story
But they making more then anyone else

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Originally Posted by TGO

I really think you are referring to your personal taste
The biggest selling artists at the moment are on the Sony label, if those artists are good or not is a different story
But they making more then anyone else

Sent via Codec

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I will sit back and watch it fall because it will. So many popular bands today are not with Sony (bands that are coming out I mean) and it's because of Sony's ridiculous high costs for current and newer bands just getting up there. Some bands were with sony while their newer albums are not and the reason is, is because of Sony's lack of support while doing tours, period. Singers such as whitney houston obviously can't tour, she is dead along with quite a few others under sonys label.

it is true that Sony is one of the biggest and they have been but they have certainly jacked up their percentages towards bands coming up from the woodwork. in order to really thrive in Sony, you have to almost be a solo singer.

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Originally Posted by Bigdoggy

their music division is getting a lot worse and has been since the mid to late 90's. many bands to this day had to drop and while a lot of bands have dropped Sony's label, they are still relying on old music. their new line up sucks, while system of a down is good, the label is kind of holding them back. As for new bands and singer of today, they need to pick up the slack a bit but they aren't. I know many bands today that had to drop from their label and they are much better off with their current label. lol

as for music, the point is, is their music devision needs A LOT of help cause I can already tell within a few years they will be in trouble.

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Congrats on missing the point.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8AL07B20121122

Fitch has now downgraded Sony from BBB- to BB-; they are now sub-investment ('junk') grade which is rather calamitous.

The FT also underlined some disconcerting figures; capital expenditure will average US$5.5bn at LG, compared to US$2.5bn at Sony and US$4bn at Panasonic; the figure for Samsung in comparison is a whopping US$22bn. The Japanese electronics behemoths could effectively be considered as stuck in a virtuous cycle of destruction.

Sad to say it, but I was right all along.

I'll start lamenting when the games stop coming.

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Originally Posted by silvermanor2

Wow...ok. Well I have been reading this thread with frustration and though id chime in. It seems most of you really dont understand the fundamentals under which Sony is operating at the moment, its core issues, and its current product status in the markets in which it competes.

First of all, Sony's biggest long term issue is not its quality (it does have product areas in which it needs to improve) but rather the risk associated with the Japanese Yen's several year long rally. It is making it very difficult to compete with the Koreans and achieve profit. This should be self-explanatory for anyone with even rudimentary economics knowledge. This is the primary reason why Japanese players Sony, Panasonic, Sharp, etc are all struggling and the South Koreans like Samsung, LG, etc are all doing well.

Second, is cost of doing business, operational efficiency, etc. Sony is a bit dysfunctional. Its part cultural and part business cycle related. This has been addressed and will be fixed. As said earlier, it dosent happen overnight. Sony may have used to sell products at a serious premium due to ego and brand strength but this is largely no more. Some Samsung products in my opinion are priced as high or higher than Sony without really any quality advantage. When it comes to Korea vs Japan this is a common theme. Sony is essentially unable to price competitively with the Koreans and achieve the same margins, based on the way the organization currently operates and its geography (which creates increased labour cost, currency challenges and other disadvantages).

Sony still does make certain products that dominate the market with quality. Its Vaio Z has been one of the best Windows notebooks on the planet (number 1 in my opinion) for several years. Its camera segment is absolutely on fire. It produces all the sensors in most mobile superphones, has an amazing NEX line and a recently introduced point and shoot that changed the industry.

Lastly, those who seem to want to bash the Bravia line are seriously ignorant. I will agree, at the lower end, there really is not much difference between a Samsung and a Sony and yes the Sony may be priced ~5% higher (although there are countless accounts of Samsung panels failing prematurely as they are well known to use some of the cheapest components available to keep costs down, but to each their own). At the higher end however, the difference is night and day. This is truly an issue of unnecessarily high expenses which is driving margins down, prices higher and sales down, rather than low quality as many of you have incorrectly indicated. If any of you are seriously interested in the TV market, subscribe to something like AVS forum and read. The best non-plasma panel rated in the world right now is a Sony (XBR 929). This TV takes a sledgehammer to anything Samsung or LG makes. Samsung or LG dont even manufacture a unit that competes anywhere near this level. Hell Samsung DOES NOT even produce a TV that features local dimming. This is your top brand, really? The only problem is that this higher market segment has low sales volume.

Overall, if you were to own a Sony Xperia TL smartphone, a mid to high market Bravia LED TV, a Vaio notebook, an NEX camera, and a PS3, i dont think you would be missing out on much and assume you would be very satisfied.

This dosent even get into the stellar year its Music and Movie divisions have had.

I thought id play devils advocate and provide some food for thought.

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I was reading through this thread and basically in awe of the simplistic thinking that most have. You hit the nail right on the head. This has nothing to do with quality or even one man running down the company. A perfect storm of over a decade long recession in Japan (theirs started well before ours did) and their govt screwed it up just like ours is with their fiscal policies have made it almost impossible for their companies to compete. It isn't just Sony...it affected all the giant companies across the board from Toyota to Kodak to Sony. They aren't just trying to compete with features and price but they are being crushed by exchange rates on their products. It costs ENORMOUSLY more for them to develop, build, market, and then worse of all ship products and they lose money all along the line because of the Japanese govt screwing them over. That is why they are more expensive. Yes they made mistakes and tried to pass along the costs to consumers through the prices but obviously during a crash to the world economy in ALL the areas of the world that Sony was once market leaders in several areas of their business being priced like that and continuing to hold margins is almost impossible. The world economy combined with the increase in more cheaply made competition from china and korea and the huge yen issues have put Sony in a huge disadvantage. They are making changes to lower these costs but anyone that is an expert with tvs will tell you at the top end...they have the best technology and the best quality. Does that mean people want it...no but they push the bar...they set the standard still. Like others have said...at the top end...there isn't even anyone in that segment producing a tv. They have a tough long road to climb to get out of the red but it has to be done in segments. They have to find efficiencies and flush out waste and corruption inside the company. Streamline alot of their businesses and find efficiencies across their products...and importantly get out of a couple they simple just can't compete in. TVs....aren't one of them. If they are fortunate for the economy ever to grow and gain strength again....people will buy top end again...just like the early 90s. They have the products...they just need more customers.

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Originally Posted by silvermanor2

Wow...ok. Well I have been reading this thread with frustration and though id chime in. It seems most of you really dont understand the fundamentals under which Sony is operating at the moment, its core issues, and its current product status in the markets in which it competes.

First of all, Sony's biggest long term issue is not its quality (it does have product areas in which it needs to improve) but rather the risk associated with the Japanese Yen's several year long rally. It is making it very difficult to compete with the Koreans and achieve profit. This should be self-explanatory for anyone with even rudimentary economics knowledge. This is the primary reason why Japanese players Sony, Panasonic, Sharp, etc are all struggling and the South Koreans like Samsung, LG, etc are all doing well.

Second, is cost of doing business, operational efficiency, etc. Sony is a bit dysfunctional. Its part cultural and part business cycle related. This has been addressed and will be fixed. As said earlier, it dosent happen overnight. Sony may have used to sell products at a serious premium due to ego and brand strength but this is largely no more. Some Samsung products in my opinion are priced as high or higher than Sony without really any quality advantage. When it comes to Korea vs Japan this is a common theme. Sony is essentially unable to price competitively with the Koreans and achieve the same margins, based on the way the organization currently operates and its geography (which creates increased labour cost, currency challenges and other disadvantages).

Sony still does make certain products that dominate the market with quality. Its Vaio Z has been one of the best Windows notebooks on the planet (number 1 in my opinion) for several years. Its camera segment is absolutely on fire. It produces all the sensors in most mobile superphones, has an amazing NEX line and a recently introduced point and shoot that changed the industry.

Lastly, those who seem to want to bash the Bravia line are seriously ignorant. I will agree, at the lower end, there really is not much difference between a Samsung and a Sony and yes the Sony may be priced ~5% higher (although there are countless accounts of Samsung panels failing prematurely as they are well known to use some of the cheapest components available to keep costs down, but to each their own). At the higher end however, the difference is night and day. This is truly an issue of unnecessarily high expenses which is driving margins down, prices higher and sales down, rather than low quality as many of you have incorrectly indicated. If any of you are seriously interested in the TV market, subscribe to something like AVS forum and read. The best non-plasma panel rated in the world right now is a Sony (XBR 929). This TV takes a sledgehammer to anything Samsung or LG makes. Samsung or LG dont even manufacture a unit that competes anywhere near this level. Hell Samsung DOES NOT even produce a TV that features local dimming. This is your top brand, really? The only problem is that this higher market segment has low sales volume.

Overall, if you were to own a Sony Xperia TL smartphone, a mid to high market Bravia LED TV, a Vaio notebook, an NEX camera, and a PS3, i dont think you would be missing out on much and assume you would be very satisfied.

This dosent even get into the stellar year its Music and Movie divisions have had.

I thought id play devils advocate and provide some food for thought.

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I was reading through this thread and basically in awe of the simplistic thinking that most have. You hit the nail right on the head. This has nothing to do with quality or even one man running down the company. A perfect storm of over a decade long recession in Japan (theirs started well before ours did) and their govt screwed it up just like ours is with their fiscal policies have made it almost impossible for their companies to compete. It isn't just Sony...it affected all the giant companies across the board from Toyota to Kodak to Sony. They aren't just trying to compete with features and price but they are being crushed by exchange rates on their products. It costs ENORMOUSLY more for them to develop, build, market, and then worse of all ship products and they lose money all along the line because of the Japanese govt screwing them over. That is why they are more expensive. Yes they made mistakes and tried to pass along the costs to consumers through the prices but obviously during a crash to the world economy in ALL the areas of the world that Sony was once market leaders in several areas of their business being priced like that and continuing to hold margins is almost impossible. The world economy combined with the increase in more cheaply made competition from china and korea and the huge yen issues have put Sony in a huge disadvantage. They are making changes to lower these costs but anyone that is an expert with tvs will tell you at the top end...they have the best technology and the best quality. Does that mean people want it...no but they push the bar...they set the standard still. Like others have said...at the top end...there isn't even anyone in that segment producing a tv. They have a tough long road to climb to get out of the red but it has to be done in segments. They have to find efficiencies and flush out waste and corruption inside the company. Streamline alot of their businesses and find efficiencies across their products...and importantly get out of a couple they simple just can't compete in. TVs....aren't one of them. If they are fortunate for the economy ever to grow and gain strength again....people will buy top end again...just like the early 90s. They have the products...they just need more customers.

I'm not worried about the status of their gaming division at all.

I tell you what the problem is, Sony are a engineer company, their TV's, audio equipment, Cameras & game consoles are all heavily engineed, that is why I value their products, but this is 2012 & people value ok hardware & excellent software, Sony is a excellent hardware & ok software company.
they've improved leaps & bounds the past few years but they are still pushing hardware quality, if they match software with their hardware quality at a competitive price on all their products they might return to where they once were, but excellent hardware costs more to produce then excellent software, they need a balance so they can keep that reputation too, I think PS4 is gonna excite the world

just my 2 pence

The japanese electronics industry is fucked atm. Kind of worrying

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Originally Posted by Nitey

The japanese electronics industry is fucked atm. Kind of worrying

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They are, but people seem to be pretending that its only Sony


Some good news
http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/skyfall-sets-bond-box-office-record/
4 billion in profits for Sony with TASM, MIB3 & Skyfall, a studio record
With Skyfall looking to hit 1bil and is almost there already.
Sent via Codec

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Originally Posted by Ghost-Rhayne

I'll start lamenting when the games stop coming.

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Gross debt for the non-financial operations of Sony increased to ¥1.25trn (¥1.15trn in March), while cash & deposits decreased to ¥0.42trn (previously ¥0.72trn); Samsung’s market cap is now 20x that of Sony, while Nintendo’s is close to double. Going by Sony’s present trajectory, I wouldn’t bet against that occurring (hence the downgrade and negative watch).

The problem ultimately with Sony is that it has taken a similar view as you; unfortunately ignoring the issues and failing to adapt will prove to be awfully short sighted and terminal.

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Originally Posted by davin_g

Kodak

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Kodak is failing, but they aren’t Japanese; but its previous direct competitor (Fujifilm) is. Fujifilm is the perfect example of a Japanese business that undertook extensive (and radical by Japanese standards) internal reforms and rapid diversification to stay afloat; it is now a very respectable business.

world countries just need to do the only thing that canbe done : take money form the richest people on the planet, these people don't even know how many "0"s are on their account, the world economy needs this money, they don't

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Originally Posted by Kopkiwi

It's sad but it's true. Sony TV prices are beyond stupid. I can get cost from Sony here in NZ through a mate and it's STILL more expensive than the other big name brands.

The worst thing that can happen for the gaming industry is for Sony to drop out of it. We all lose in that instance.

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agreed but other factors to consider when pitching price points such as reliability, lastability.

Cheap parts etcs

For me I have been burned 3/4 times with companies sellling cheaper feature full products for them to fail not far out waranty.

take philips I have had couple dvr/r from them granted the company is indeed innovative in its products but found there lastability, reliability not good at all. Maybe bad luck but its actually put me off buying philips.

I had panasonic tape recorder which still works today hyper drive version. Would not hesetate buying there gear based on that.

Not defending sony but how does there higher prices stack up to reliability, lastability to rivals.

Now wondering if sony to me are dropping standards or simply just became lazy took for granted the sony brand as gold standard electronics. My question was the build quality in first ps3 fat with YLOD not to standards of past.

With others improve standards sony done nothing ultimately panicking to rectify the mess.

on rating agencies there reputations should be junk also they failed miserably on worlds economy guidelines.

Sony just maybe high profile victim idiot rating agents forcing the world into recessions when the banks played fire without reguard with other peoples money.

without people with disposable incomes companies like sony, panasonic, lg, samsung will all struggle to entice people to buy products.

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Originally Posted by silvermanor2

Sony still does make certain products that dominate the market with quality. Its Vaio Z has been one of the best Windows notebooks on the planet (number 1 in my opinion) for several years. Its camera segment is absolutely on fire. It produces all the sensors in most mobile superphones, has an amazing NEX line and a recently introduced point and shoot that changed the industry.

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Excuse me for ignoring most everything else you wrote, but I really did only want to touch this subject for a moment.

Quite frankly, you're shortsighted here. Yes, Sony quality is good, but Sony SALES are what matters.

The Vaio Z doesn't hold a candle to the Dell Inspiron in sales, which are the mainstay of almost every major business. They may not have the quality of the Vaio, but they've got the sales, and that's what matters.

Sony's camera business has always been anchored in point and shoot cameras, but smartphones have almost entirely eliminated that market. No serious photographer will even give Sony a second look when it comes to DSLRs or Compact System Cameras where Nikon and Canon rule the industry. When it comes to cameras, it's the glass that is important, not the plastic case, and Sony cameras produce poor pictures because they have inferior glass, and their image processors aren't very good either. (I use a LOT of DSLRs, and Sony are among the worst in picture quality)

I really don't know what you find so amazing about the NEX line, I could easily list a dozen problems that I found while using an NEX5. Rather than going into a huge rant about it's limitations I'll simply say you would be far better off with an entry level DSLR like the Nikon D3000 or Canon Rebel T3 for a third less money. Especially if you ever plan on using your camera outside in the daytime.

In short, due to the mid-range DSLR pricing and functionality that is inferior to an entry level DSLR, I don't see the NEX line ever being a significantly profitable venture for Sony. A few tech geeks may buy it, but any serious photographer will go with a proper DSLR instead. Your ordinary person looking for a point and shoot isn't going to touch a $700+ camera either way, they'll just use their smartphone which probably has a Nikon or Toshiba camera inside.


And just so you know where I am coming from here.

$200 Canon Powershot S90
http://captainkimo.com/wp-content/up...90-490x367.jpg

$400 Canon Rebel T3:
http://captainkimo.com/wp-content/up...t3-490x326.jpg

$700 Sony NEX5:
http://captainkimo.com/wp-content/up...x5-490x326.jpg



Even the Canon Powershot has better picture quality, and it is $500 cheaper than the NEX5.