Tretton talks MS: We've sold the same if not more - we're all about the gamers

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Originally Posted by Bigdoggy

What's the difference here between shipped and sold. You guys make this almost your first priority whenever a console announces how many units they sold, then some of you guys say "they were shipped".

Here is the thing, if the units/consoles were shipped, they were already sold. In order for them to be shipped they have to be sold. What that means is that those stores already purchased those units, all that money now is in the hands of the company. o.O lmfao

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I don't like to get into sales debates believe me. They never end well. I'm not one of those people that want to argue it until the end of the day either. The way I look at it. I got into a store I see just say 4 360s and 4 PS3s. Sony is counting those as sold as an indicator as userbase. Based on MS's sales those 4 360s are not sold. Yes they have been sold to wholesalers but not to the consumers. A product can be a massive flop but there are 10 million units shipped to meet a demand that was assumed was there. Just a bit misleading. Imagine if the company that released that product was touting that they shipped 10 million units and never discerned the difference between that and sold to consumers. Say they sold 1 million to consumers. This is all a theoretical situation and no where near is it comparable to Sony's situation but that is my logic on it. Yes they got the money from wholesalers but that doesn't mean the product is a big success. Imagine if MS did this for 360 sales with shipped to Japan.

I would say though with it so close they are practically even considering the year jump. Sony possibly having the slight edge considering how close they are with a year gap. Like I said I don't want to argue this all day. I'm open to your counter completely. That is just my outlook on it. No matter what no one can discredit the PS3 is a huge success with all the hurdles that it had to over come. Consumer shock by price, early on lack of support, and PSN fiasco. Yet here we are and they are nipping at the heels or dead even with them. How ever you look at it. :D

The question I would ask is how do you even know MS doesnt count them as sold? Because they told you they don't? Every company lies in one way or another to make themselves look good. For Sony, Shipped = Sold because they're sold out to the stores, they've made their money regardless of if those systems go for MSRP or bargain bin price so if it's in the store it's already a win for them.

To a gamer it means nothing I'll admit that, MS can say 80 million, Sony can say 77 million at the end of the day a few single digit millions aren't a particularly big scale tipper to developers unless they simply have a bias or a exclusivity contract. If you want to focus on anything it should be how quickly the gap closed once Sony started trying to price their machine at a more acceptable and consumer friendly level. A year headstart should have killed them but people WANTED Playstations, they just didn't want it for that price. Sony couldn't win a pricing war with MS because MS will dump their price into the basement if it means outpacing a rival;

Sony: Starting today PS3 is 400 bucks!
MS: 360! now $350!
Sony: Okay it's $300 now!
MS: Duck season! Er, I mean $250!

If your rival doesnt care if they're making a profit as long as you DONT you can't win like that. But at a higher price point with arguably more features it still closed a significant sales gap, It might not have passed them but in 6 years it managed to finish almost dead even and Sony claims to still have plans to support it for another 4 years even if 2 of those years are spent doing nothing but bringing the console to regions that haven't had it yet.

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Originally Posted by Alpha2

The question I would ask is how do you even know MS doesnt count them as sold? Because they told you they don't? Every company lies in one way or another to make themselves look good. For Sony, Shipped = Sold because they're sold out to the stores, they've made their money regardless of if those systems go for MSRP or bargain bin price so if it's in the store it's already a win for them.

To a gamer it means nothing I'll admit that, MS can say 80 million, Sony can say 77 million at the end of the day a few single digit millions aren't a particularly big scale tipper to developers unless they simply have a bias or a exclusivity contract. If you want to focus on anything it should be how quickly the gap closed once Sony started trying to price their machine at a more acceptable and consumer friendly level. A year headstart should have killed them but people WANTED Playstations, they just didn't want it for that price. Sony couldn't win a pricing war with MS because MS will dump their price into the basement if it means outpacing a rival;

Sony: Starting today PS3 is 400 bucks!
MS: 360! now $350!
Sony: Okay it's $300 now!
MS: Duck season! Er, I mean $250!

If your rival doesnt care if they're making a profit as long as you DONT you can't win like that. But at a higher price point with arguably more features it still closed a significant sales gap, It might not have passed them but in 6 years it managed to finish almost dead even and Sony claims to still have plans to support it for another 4 years even if 2 of those years are spent doing nothing but bringing the console to regions that haven't had it yet.

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Absolutely. At the end of the day, a gamer imo shouldn't care so much about sales unless sales are bad. In no way is your system threatened unless sales are awful. That means support could dip. But the PS3 and 360 are in no way hurting for sales right now like the WiiU for instance. The support will still be there regardless. I don't know why so many gamers harp on sales. Not like the money is going in your pockets. Although if you are loyal to a brand you want to see them do well naturally. That just means a brighter future. But arguing that one console sold x amount more is just over my head honestly. Especially when the total is as close as it is. It usually just turns into a war of words.

I don't think that's the case, they are just counting those as sold, which they are sold. People need to stop twisting this thing. It's like Music for example, here's an artist that sold over 10 million CD's, that doesn't mean that 10 million people have that CD, that is just how much was sold more than likely to stores over the course of so many months or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Bigdoggy

I don't think that's the case, they are just counting those as sold, which they are sold. People need to stop twisting this thing. It's like Music for example, here's an artist that sold over 10 million CD's, that doesn't mean that 10 million people have that CD, that is just how much was sold more than likely to stores over the course of so many months or whatever.

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Very true. As someone stated who know that MS isn't really twisting their truth behind closed doors. They very well could be doing the same thing that Sony does just to keep their lead.

It's just always been assumed in the gaming industry that retail will not order more units unless they are confident that they can move them and move software with them. It's nothing at all like the record industry which actually meticulously tracks sales.

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Originally Posted by Serinous

I agree and me too. However, I really really really hope that Sony is smart about pricing...

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This all the way. If its under $500, ill probably be there at midnight with my two bros. Were putting all our money together and we got about $300-$350 now. I'm hoping it'll be somewhere around $400 or $450.

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Originally Posted by BG_

This all the way. If its under $500, ill probably be there at midnight with my two bros. Were putting all our money together and we got about $300-$350 now. I'm hoping it'll be somewhere around $400 or $450.

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I'm almost certain the thing will release at 450. I just have one of those gut feelings on this.

Still using my PS3 to watch movies and series on my USB HDD. Connect, browse, press play and here we goes. Can i do this with Xbox ? No, then GTFO.

Microsoft have lost the plot with core gaming imho.

My interview with Tretton....


ME: So Mr. Tretton.... explain how Sony went from a 5:1 sales ratio over the Xbox platform last gen to only 1:1 at the END of this current generation?

Tretton: Well you see... the Xbox 360 launched much earlier then the PS3 and at a much lower price.

Me: Well the Sega Dreamcast launched much earlier then the PS2 and at a much lower price and yet that didn't stop the PS2 from going on to sell at a 15:1 ratio over the Dreamcast. Can you explain that?

Tretton: Well.. um...er...

Me: And the Dreamcast even had the biggest 24-hours in entertainment history at the time. But once the PS2 was announced, Dreamcast sales started to slow down. Once the PS2 was actually released, Dreamcast sales plummeted and PS2 was on it's way to world domination. Care to explain that?

Tretton: Well you see... the PS2 was the better value. It was more money, but you got the newest disc format called DVD and the PS2 had more memory and was more powerful overall then the Dreamcast. People were willing to wait longer and pay more to get the better console. Plus.... Sony has a very large and loyal PlayStation fanbase thanks to our PS1 console. It was only natural they would move on in great numbers over to the PS2.

Me: Well the PS3 had the newest disc format called Blu-Ray and was more powerful overall then the Xbox 360... and yet sales of the 360 didn't slow down nor plummeted once the PS3 launched. How do you explain that?

Tretton: ummmmmm..... well... you see....

Me: And do you care to explain why that very large and loyal PlayStation fanbase you talk about didn't naturally move on in great numbers over to the PS3?

Tretton: Well as I explained before....... the Xbox 360 launched much earlier then the PS3 and at a much lower price.

Me: Yes..... but the Dreamcast did also and yet it still lost out big time to the PS2.

Tretton: ummmm.... I see your point... but you have to understand...

Me: Well what I do understand is that Sony blew a 5:1 sales ratio lead last gen over Xbox.....only to be at a 1:1 sales ratio in the last year of the current gen. If that fanbase was so loyal.... why did they leave in droves? You don't lose a big lead like that unless alot of your fanbase is going elsewhere.....right?

Tretton: ummm... well with mobile gaming and smartphones, you expect to lose a few here and there to other platforms.

Me: Yes... but both Nintendo and Microsoft were in the same environment and yet their console bases increased significantly instead of dropping significantly...... how do you explain that?

Tretton: errr.......hmmmmmm...

Me: Explain why the Xbox and Xbox 360 platforms had higher average software attach rates in both gens then either of Sony's consoles?

Tretton: Are you gonna ask me any easy questions?

Me: Nope. Thank you for taking out your very valuable time to speak with me!

Tretton: Ummm...you're welcome....I guess?.....Ahhhh.... What just happened?

Me: Have a nice day Mr. Tretton! :snicker;)

I guess you've abandoned any pretence at impartiality and have gone into full on troll mode

Well done.

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Originally Posted by Cyn

I guess you've abandoned any pretence at impartiality and have gone into full on troll mode

Well done.

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I guess no more or less impartiality then anyone else here. My post was playing the devil's advocate. If you want to debate or challenge it.... that's what the forum is for. If I'm a troll, then you and many others are cuz you leave no doubt where you stand wherever you post

So tell me what you take issue with and argue you're case. Just as long as it's civil. No need to get personal.

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Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster

I guess no more impartiality then anyone else here. My post was playing the devil's advocate. If you want to debate or challenge it.... that's what the forum is for. If I'm a troll, then you and many others are cuz you leave no doubt where you stand wherever you post

So tell me what you take issue with and argue you're case. Just as long as it's civil. No need to get personal.

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I know what you are doing. Hundreds just like you have come and gone. To be fair you might be one from that number back for more fun and games.

You haven't reinvented the wheel, dear

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Originally Posted by Cyn

I know what you are doing. Hundreds just like you have come and gone. To be fair you might be one from that number back for more fun and games.

You haven't reinvented the wheel, dear

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So you can't find fault in my arguments to offer counter points or explain where I was wrong? My mock interview had more to do with addressing the reasons Sony fans over the years explained why PS3 didn't wipe the floor with the Xbox 360 and not actually Sony themselves.

Even though I haven't liked Sony for years, I still bought their consoles cuz I had to have the games.

With the debut of the PS4, I'm starting to like Sony as a company again. A lot of their arrogance is being checked and I like hearing they are committed to games. I'm starting to feel about Sony the way I did when they launched the PS1. That's a huge turn around for me. I still prefer the Xbox platform, but Sony seems to be making BIG strides in making me like them again.

When it comes to Sony's video cameras, I never stopped loving them. They are the only ones I will buy.

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Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster

So you can't find fault in my arguments to offer counter points or explain where I was wrong? My mock interview had more to do with addressing the reasons Sony fans over the years explained why PS3 didn't wipe the floor with the Xbox 360 and not actually Sony themselves.

Even though I haven't liked Sony for years, I still bought their consoles cuz I had to have the games.

With the debut of the PS4, I'm starting to like Sony as a company again. A lot of their arrogance is being checked and I like hearing they are committed to games. I'm starting to feel about Sony the way I did when they launched the PS1. That's a huge turn around for me. I still prefer the Xbox platform, but Sony seems to be making BIG strides in making me like them again.

When it comes to Sony's video cameras, I never stopped loving them. They are the only ones I will buy.

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I'm not countering your 'arguments' because you didn't post it as a talking point, you posted it as flamebait. There's nothing to counter either, no amount of back and forth can extinguish hatred and bile. Devils advocate? Wind-up merchant is a better description

You have talked so much about Sony's arrogance as a reason for your hatred yet you devoutly defend Microsoft to the hilt. That is nonsensical yet you feign interest in rational debate.

Lastly, this isn't a Sony forum it's a Playstation forum and your reference to many other members as "Sony fans" is fairly obnoxious. I doubt you'll find another soul on here as obsessed with brand loyalty and corporate battles as yourself. On a personal level I don't give a toss about Sony's financial situation as long as they don't go out of business and can continue to make great consoles, games and peripherals.

And if you really want to talk about arrogance, Microsoft has that in spades these past couple of years and barely release any new content that is worth looking at.

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Originally Posted by Cyn

I'm not countering your 'arguments' because you didn't post it as a talking point, you posted it as flamebait. There's nothing to counter either, no amount of back and forth can extinguish hatred and bile. Devils advocate? Wind-up merchant is a better description

You have talked so much about Sony's arrogance as a reason for your hatred yet you devoutly defend Microsoft to the hilt. That is nonsensical yet you feign interest in rational debate.

Lastly, this isn't a Sony forum it's a Playstation forum and your reference to many other members as "Sony fans" is fairly obnoxious. I doubt you'll find another soul on here as obsessed with brand loyalty and corporate battles as yourself. On a personal level I don't give a toss about Sony's financial situation as long as they don't go out of business and can continue to make great consoles, games and peripherals.

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In debate there are 2 sides. I don't devoutly defend Microsoft. If this was a Windows discussion, I'd be tearing MS a new one. It wouldn't be pretty. But I do like them in the console space. I'm not that hot on Kinect, but I understand why it's being pursued. Until I see it put to better use, I will be lukewarm on it.

As for my arguments? It was a humorous mock interview with logical arguments. Call it hatred and bile all you want (which it isn't), but you are welcome to tell me where I made illogical statements. So far I see you taking issue with the PRESENTATION far more then the SUBSTANCE of the post.

You kinda remind me of a liberal. Liberals tend to scream some insult at conservatives instead of debating the actual issues logically. They don't want to debate, they just want to be right. So they will call a conservative a "racist"... which of course is an instant conversation killer. It also changes the subject and puts the conservative on defense instead of debating the original issue in the first place. The liberal has now successfully dodged the original argument. It prevents them from ever logically being proven wrong.

You don't like me....I get it.

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Originally Posted by Robardian

And if you really want to talk about arrogance, Microsoft has that in spades these past couple of years and barely release any new content that is worth looking at.

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Yes... but Sony has been arrogant far longer. Since I was a kid (early 1970s), Sony has been overcharging for marginally better products for years and acting like they were way better then they were. It's finally caught up with them and Samsung is eating their lunch today as a result.

Sony used to be the premier brand in just about anything they made. Not anymore.

That's also another problem I feel that you have. This forum isn't here to judge Sony as a company.were here to talk about playstation news, games etc. and in all honestly it wasn't until Microsoft entered the competition that anybody really competed against Sony. So yeah Sony got to act like a king for a little bit. Now Microsoft is trying to do it and really it has no right to since it's basically tied in sales and is abandoning the one thing gamers in general want, games. And until they change that they will always be last in the big 3 in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Robardian

That's also another problem I feel that you have. This forum isn't here to judge Sony as a company.were here to talk about playstation news, games etc. and in all honestly it wasn't until Microsoft entered the competition that anybody really competed against Sony. So yeah Sony got to act like a king for a little bit. Now Microsoft is trying to do it and really it has no right to since it's basically tied in sales and is abandoning the one thing gamers in general want, games. And until they change that they will always be last in the big 3 in my eyes.

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We are here to judge the company's behind the consoles as well as the consoles and games themselves. Just as you judge MS yourself in the post. Sony screwed up with the PS3. They seem to be well on their way to redeeming themselves with the PS4.

It will never likely reach PS2 numbers or dominate the marketshare like it once did, but it doesn't have to. It just needs to survive and that's all but certain it will.

As for Microsoft being king? Nintendo was king this gen by sheer numbers. MS may be tied with Sony, but they stuck around while Sega and the Dreamcast didn't. Considering the 5:1 ratio Microsoft was pounded by last gen, leading Sony for all this gen and basically tied at the very end of it..... that's a huge accomplishment. Especially considering all the bad PR and hate thrown at them over the years in the OS world.

Remember MS is the company that was sued by the EU and lost for unfair practices. Yes... amazing the Xbox brand thrived despite it's parent company's bad reputation.

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Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster

So you can't find fault in my arguments to offer counter points or explain where I was wrong? My mock interview had more to do with addressing the reasons Sony fans over the years explained why PS3 didn't wipe the floor with the Xbox 360 and not actually Sony themselves.

Even though I haven't liked Sony for years, I still bought their consoles cuz I had to have the games.

With the debut of the PS4, I'm starting to like Sony as a company again. A lot of their arrogance is being checked and I like hearing they are committed to games. I'm starting to feel about Sony the way I did when they launched the PS1. That's a huge turn around for me. I still prefer the Xbox platform, but Sony seems to be making BIG strides in making me like them again.

When it comes to Sony's video cameras, I never stopped loving them. They are the only ones I will buy.

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And MS doesn't exhibit this arrogance by almost completely abandoning their core base that made them what they are in the console market today by pushing Kinect down everyone's throat? Don't see how you can bash on Sony for arrogance when what MS has been doing the last couple years is the pinnacle of arrogance.

I'll admit that Sony had a strong amount of arrogance coming into the current gen coming off the PS2 but MS is pulling the same card this time around with the success of the 360.

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Originally Posted by ps3freak18

And MS doesn't exhibit this arrogance by almost completely abandoning their core base that made them what they are in the console market today by pushing Kinect down everyone's throat? Don't see how you can bash on Sony for arrogance when what MS has been doing the last couple years is the pinnacle of arrogance.

I'll admit that Sony had a strong amount of arrogance coming into the current gen coming off the PS2 but MS is pulling the same card this time around with the success of the 360.

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So the Wii cleans the clock of MS and Sony in console numbers. Nintendo got the casual crowd like no other console had ever before. I remember seeing news reports and internet articles showing seniors in nursing homes playing bowling on the Wii. What other console has ever done that? NONE!

So MS makes the Kinect. If you would have said on these forums that a $150 video game ACCESSORY would sell 8 million in 60 days to become the fastest selling consumer electronic EVER, you would have be laughed right off here. But Microsoft did it. They went on to put 24+ million in homes. That's 1 in 3 Xbox 360 households. Sony has about the same console base numbers and the Move's price of entry was much lower than the Kinect.....yet Move sales are millions behind Kinect.

So Microsoft is putting more money and effort into Kinect. It's business 101. They have bills, employees and shareholders to pay. They would be idiots if they didn't pursue this. And it hasn't hurt console sales. Headline "xbox 360 tops consoles in US in february with 302,000 sold" and it's 26th straight month of outselling the PS3 and Wii in the USA tells MS they are doing just fine DESPITE the complaints of them not addressing the hardcore as much as they should.

If making a good business decision is considered arrogant, then apparently Sony should have been MORE arrogant cuz they have been falling apart for years. Their brand name lost it's prestige along with most of it's marketshare in just about every product line they sell.


On a side note.... my MOCK interview had more to do with addressing the lame excuse that the PS3 is in the position today because Xbox 360 released a year earlier and at a much lower price. And I say........so did the Dreamcast and yet the PS2 wiped it out.

Now the #1 excuse as to why the Dreamcast lost to the PS2 was because they say Sega didn't have the cash to keep going. To which I say..... they didn't have the cash flow because Dreamcast hardware and software sales were being killed by the hype and imminent release of the PS2. Had it kept selling, they wouldn't have folded the Dreamcast a mere 5 months after the PS2's USA release. Xbox 360 survived cuz it's hardware and software sales didn't drop as the Cell/Blu-Ray hyped PS3 release date approached and was released.

That's why I said to Cyn..... argue logically how my premise is wrong. He instead decided to take issue with it's format and presentation as to why he's not gonna bother even though the meat of it is there for him to dispute and counter argue. He can't and will likely not dispute it because my argument is hard to counter logically.

No that would be because there's no actual logic in your post. It's not an argument nor is it a talking point aside from the fact it's obvious trolling.

Comparing the 360 to the Dreamcast is a fallacy, don't even go there. The Dreamcast died because it had no support from third party publishers, the PS2 didn't kill it. The 360 didn't "survive", it was a normal console release that had plenty of support and did well because it was first to market. You're raging against the machine here constantly as if you systematically ignore the posts that acknowledge that Sony got a lot wrong at the beginning of this gen. People don't dispute that for fuck sake.

And that's as much as you'll get. Go WUM a christian website or something. That should at least get you some bites.

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Originally Posted by Cyn

No that would be because there's no actual logic in your post. It's not an argument nor is it a talking point aside from the fact it's obvious trolling.

Comparing the 360 to the Dreamcast is a fallacy, don't even go there. The Dreamcast died because it had no support from third party publishers, the PS2 didn't kill it. The 360 didn't "survive", it was a normal console release that had plenty of support and did well because it was first to market. You're raging against the machine here constantly as if you systematically ignore the posts that acknowledge that Sony got a lot wrong at the beginning of this gen. People don't dispute that for fuck sake.

And that's as much as you'll get. Go WUM a christian website or something. That should at least get you some bites.

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3rd party support dropped because the sales of hardware and software dropped. Cause and effect. Had the hardware and software numbers kept up, the 3rd parties would have stuck around. Konami, Capcom, Activision, etc etc were all there.... the sales weren't in the end.

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Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster

So the Wii cleans the clock of MS and Sony in console numbers. Nintendo got the casual crowd like no other console had ever before. I remember seeing news reports and internet articles showing seniors in nursing homes playing bowling on the Wii. What other console has ever done that? NONE!

So MS makes the Kinect. If you would have said on these forums that a $150 video game ACCESSORY would sell 8 million in 60 days to become the fastest selling consumer electronic EVER, you would have be laughed right off here. But Microsoft did it. They went on to put 24+ million in homes. That's 1 in 3 Xbox 360 households. Sony has about the same console base numbers and the Move's price of entry was much lower than the Kinect.....yet Move sales are millions behind Kinect.

So Microsoft is putting more money and effort into Kinect. It's business 101. They have bills, employees and shareholders to pay. They would be idiots if they didn't pursue this. And it hasn't hurt console sales. Headline "xbox 360 tops consoles in US in february with 302,000 sold" and it's 26th straight month of outselling the PS3 and Wii in the USA tells MS they are doing just fine DESPITE the complaints of them not addressing the hardcore as much as they should.

If making a good business decision is considered arrogant, then apparently Sony should have been MORE arrogant cuz they have been falling apart for years. Their brand name lost it's prestige along with most of it's marketshare in just about every product line they sell.


On a side note.... my MOCK interview had more to do with addressing the lame excuse that the PS3 is in the position today because Xbox 360 released a year earlier and at a much lower price. And I say........so did the Dreamcast and yet the PS2 wiped it out.

Now the #1 excuse as to why the Dreamcast lost to the PS2 was because they say Sega didn't have the cash to keep going. To which I say..... they didn't have the cash flow because Dreamcast hardware and software sales were being killed by the hype and imminent release of the PS2. Had it kept selling, they wouldn't have folded the Dreamcast a mere 5 months after the PS2's USA release. Xbox 360 survived cuz it's hardware and software sales didn't drop as the Cell/Blu-Ray hyped PS3 release date approached and was released.

That's why I said to Cyn..... argue logically how my premise is wrong. He instead decided to take issue with it's format and presentation as to why he's not gonna bother even though the meat of it is there for him to dispute and counter argue. He can't and will likely not dispute it because my argument is hard to counter logically.

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Lol. Sony's brand lost it's name but MS completely gears their system off an accessory that is many core gamers don't want over the last few years. All sunshine and rainbows in the MS world apparently. Sony created the Cell which I assume you are referring to as arrogant yet they are losing their name for trying to be ambitious and try something new. Sony is now trying to make up for that by making an easier to develop for system. Therefore making their support go up from devs in turn more games.

KInect was a success and I commend MS for trying something new that worked well. But it's an accessory not the whole console. Why treat it like such and turn off many of your core gamers. Sounds like trading loyal customers for flavor of the month customers.

Wii sold well yes. Price was considerably lower and its goal was to aim to be a family friendly console. It was just that and didn't change. But look at WiiU now, where are those loyal buyers now that the price is higher. Motion controls were mostly a fad. MS's intrigued many Move did not mostly because Sony didn't do a good job discerning it's motion controls from the Wii. But do you think basing your main focus on a peripheral that could lose momentum any day now when consumers become bored is a good idea?