The Manchester United Thread

[Tutankhamun]

For someone who doesn't understand all this New York stock stuff, what does this mean for UNITED? in simple terms please good or bad?

Man United will register as a company in the Cayman Islands and are seeking to list stock in that company on the New York Stock Exchange (Wall Street). They will offer an IPO (initial public offering) to give investors an opportunity to buy stock. This will then generate revenue. If it will be good for United is hard to say right now.

Long-term, they may offer to sell more stocks and thus reducing/giving up their ownership of United. I would say this is a necessary step the Glazers have to do to create income hopefully they use said income to pay off the debt. This is also a step for them to ultimately sell Man United but who knows how and when such a deal can happen and in what terms it would be made.

It is also very important to understand what SEC filling is, such a filling is required by the U.S government to list stock it includes forward looking statements that may or may not come to fruition. Therefor, it is important not to read too much into such a document. But it does give an unique outlook into the thinking of the management of Man United.

[three3-times]

In short, finally admitting that the glazer and the debt have FUCKED US UP SO MUCH. and now we are begging for money!

[dc89]

For someone who doesn't understand all this New York stock stuff, what does this mean for UNITED? in simple terms please good or bad?

It's good and bad. But more so, it's sad it's had to come to this. And I feel it could be a case of it being 6/7 years too late. Reading it makes you realise the Glazer take over is the worst thing that could have happened to United.

I'll give you some key chunks:

United's wage bill for 2011 was £135.57m.

United's interest bill for 2011 was £167.5m.

Document also states that between 2009 and 2011, United paid £244.916m in interest on the debt.

in 2010 United borrowed £502m to pay off the PIK's.

if they float in the US they are then liable to pay US income tax which is currently at 35%. United will operate in the UK so they will also pay the going rate in the UK too. Two tax bills to pay.

Finally the document has admitted, and I quote, "debt may affect our ability to compete for players and coaching staff". NEVER have United admitted that before, which leads us on to Gill and Fergie who have defended the Glazers to the hilt.

Gill: "Debt doesn't impact what we do."

Document: "Our indebtedness could adversely affect our financial health and competitive position."

Gill: "There has been no impact in terms of our transfers."

Document: "Debt reduces cash flow to fund the hiring and retention of players.".

They have lied to United fans for years. Fergie didn't have to say anything negative against the owners. His silence would have been enough.

The sad thing though is Fergie will probably be asked to speak in a video or a presentation about this prospectus an lie again. No one can doubt the man is a genius, the best footballer manager of all time but his support of the Glazers is ridiculous.

And he'll probably ban any journalist who has the balls to question him on this.

[Tutankhamun]

The statements you quoted: "debt may affect our ability to compete for players and coaching staff"

"Our indebtedness could adversely affect our financial health and competitive position."

"Debt reduces cash flow to fund the hiring and retention of players.".

Two of those are forward looking statements, what Gill and SAF have spoken of is the current situation. The two first quotes deals in the future, it may indeed impact United's economy in terms of attracting personal but that doesn't mean it has thus far.

The third is an obvious statement, of course there's less money to spend on players with the debt than there would be without.

Fact of the matter is, if we want to get rid of the Glazers (which we do) the club needs to float on the stock market. We can't expect someone will come in and buy the club outright.

[dc89]

I think the point I'm trying to make is United fans have been lied to for the whole Glazer ownership period.

Sure, it was plain to see. But it doesn't excuse the fact you've all been lied to by the manager and Chief Exec. If United were a bank, they'd be pressured to resign or something.

[Tutankhamun]

I think the point I'm trying to make is United fans have been lied to for the whole Glazer ownership period.

Sure, it was plain to see. But it doesn't excuse the fact you've all been lied to by the manager and Chief Exec. If United were a bank, they'd be pressured to resign or something.

I don't feel lied to. There's nothing in the filling (from what I've seen) to suggest the debt or the Glazers have upon this day impacted the business. They have declared that it may in the future. You have to understand they must declare every possible direction the bussines may take in an SEC filling. It doesn't mean it will happen simply that it may.

[manutdfan]

I just hope the Glazers sell the club!!!!

[LC77]

Man United will register as a company in the Cayman Islands and are seeking to list stock in that company on the New York Stock Exchange (Wall Street). They will offer an IPO (initial public offering) to give investors an opportunity to buy stock. This will then generate revenue. If it will be good for United is hard to say right now.
Long-term, they may offer to sell more stocks and thus reducing/giving up their ownership of United. I would say this is a necessary step the Glazers have to do to create income hopefully they use said income to pay off the debt. This is also a step for them to ultimately sell Man United but who knows how and when such a deal can happen and in what terms it would be made.

It is also very important to understand what SEC filling is, such a filling is required by the U.S government to list stock it includes forward looking statements that may or may not come to fruition. Therefor, it is important not to read too much into such a document. But it does give an unique outlook into the thinking of the management of Man United.

Not with the type of shares they are offering. The Glazer mafia will never sell the golden goose I'm afraid. And why would anybody sell a business that makes money? If and when they ever clear the debts, they will be quids in.

The thing that jumps out is the Cayman Islands. With all the tax avoidance going on in the UK, have the Glazers now slapped a huge target on OT?

When Cameron hears about this, he will have a lob on.

It's good and bad. But more so, it's sad it's had to come to this. And I feel it could be a case of it being 6/7 years too late. Reading it makes you realise the Glazer take over is the worst thing that could have happened to United.

I'll give you some key chunks:

United's wage bill for 2011 was £135.57m.

United's interest bill for 2011 was £167.5m.

Document also states that between 2009 and 2011, United paid £244.916m in interest on the debt.

in 2010 United borrowed £502m to pay off the PIK's.

if they float in the US they are then liable to pay US income tax which is currently at 35%. United will operate in the UK so they will also pay the going rate in the UK too. Two tax bills to pay.

Finally the document has admitted, and I quote, "debt may affect our ability to compete for players and coaching staff". NEVER have United admitted that before, which leads us on to Gill and Fergie who have defended the Glazers to the hilt.

Gill: "Debt doesn't impact what we do."

Document: "Our indebtedness could adversely affect our financial health and competitive position."

Gill: "There has been no impact in terms of our transfers."

Document: "Debt reduces cash flow to fund the hiring and retention of players.".

They have lied to United fans for years. Fergie didn't have to say anything negative against the owners. His silence would have been enough.

The sad thing though is Fergie will probably be asked to speak in a video or a presentation about this prospectus an lie again. No one can doubt the man is a genius, the best footballer manager of all time but his support of the Glazers is ridiculous.

And he'll probably ban any journalist who has the balls to question him on this.

Not sure you're correct on this.

Don't they only have to pay tax on the initial sale of shares? And isn't that the reason they are moving to the Cayman Islands regarding income tax? The only income tax the new company will pay, will be on money made within the UK, all monies from the rest of the world will go via the Cayman Islands.

Seems to be common with US companies, Amazon & Apple do similar a thing.

Davil Gill, August 2004, "debt is the road to ruin".

[santinomarella]

Yes we need a back up, but we should be looking for someone who can eventually replace him, baines is only 4 years younger than pat and soooooooooooo average, but like i mentioned, all the best LB's are gone.

Pat has been on the the decline since the World Cup. Still love the guy.

Which is probably why Fabio has gone out on loan. If he can have a good season then he could be making regular first team appearances in the 13/14 season. Just like Cleverley and Welbeck in recent years who had good loan spells then returned to got more first team opportunities.

[Tutankhamun]

Not with the type of shares they are offering. The Glazer mafia will never sell the golden goose I'm afraid. And why would anybody sell a business that makes money? If and when they ever clear the debts, they will be quids in.

There is a few instances where they theoretically could be better of selling. One would decline in growth. Another would be a bid coming through that is big enough for them to decide they are better off taking their winnings and getting out. Owning a football team isn't a stable business, there are considerable risks with it. At some point, the Glazers will sell because they are betting against the odds so to speak, sooner or later something may blow up. It might be legislation's from the government or FIFA rules etc making it less profitable to own football clubs.

The thing that jumps out is the Cayman Islands. With all the tax avoidance going on in the UK, have the Glazers now slapped a huge target on OT?

When Cameron hears about this, he will have a lob on.

As detailed in the SEC filling, there will be subsidiaries to Man United and those subsidiaries will pay taxes in their respective countries. Including the U.K where the majority of the revenue will come from.

Not sure you're correct on this.

Don't they only have to tax on the initial sale of shares? And isn't that the reason they are moving to the Cayman Islands regarding income tax? The only income tax the new company will pay, will be on money made within the UK, all monies from the rest of the world will go via the Cayman Islands.

Seems to be common with US companies, Amazon & Apple do similar a thing.

Davil Gill, August 2004, "debt is the road to ruin".

Apple is listed in Delaware in the U.S still.

[LC77]

Apple is listed in Delaware in the U.S still.

But pays taxes elsewhere.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/bu...ions.html?_r=3

[Tutankhamun]

But pays taxes elsewhere.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/bu...ions.html?_r=3

Apple is a global company they pay taxes in a lot of places. If you want to bring back money to the U.S you'd pay taxes then on the money collected in other places. So it's supposed to even itself out but most companies just keep their money abroad. More than 50% of Apple's cash is actually abroad.

[three3-times]

huh?

Of course the glazers have fucked us as a club!!! how can any fan think differently?!!?!?

no value in the market, means i have no money to get who i want

[dc89]

Not with the type of shares they are offering. The Glazer mafia will never sell the golden goose I'm afraid. And why would anybody sell a business that makes money? If and when they ever clear the debts, they will be quids in.

The thing that jumps out is the Cayman Islands. With all the tax avoidance going on in the UK, have the Glazers now slapped a huge target on OT?

When Cameron hears about this, he will have a lob on.




Not sure you're correct on this.

Don't they only have to pay tax on the initial sale of shares? And isn't that the reason they are moving to the Cayman Islands regarding income tax? The only income tax the new company will pay, will be on money made within the UK, all monies from the rest of the world will go via the Cayman Islands.

Seems to be common with US companies, Amazon & Apple do similar a thing.

Davil Gill, August 2004, "debt is the road to ruin".

You are correct. I misunderstood

[LC77]

You are correct. I misunderstood

Tax and understanding is not something that belong in the same sentence.

All I know is. If it looks like a Cayman, talks like a Cayman, chances are its a tax haven.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...?newsfeed=true

[Abdou23]

All they need to do is start a rumour that they willing to sell the club for the right price. 2 hours later at least 2 persons from the Middle East will make them an offer they can't refuse. I don't know why they don't just do that and get it over with.

[yourmumsface17]

All they need to do is start a rumour that they willing to sell the club for the right price. 2 hours later at least 2 persons from the Middle East will make them an offer they can't refuse. I don't know why they don't just do that and get it over with.

Already done that, I offered them £20 and a season pass to Sea World.

They turned it down

[manutdfan]

Still very doubtful we can afford players like Modric under the Glazers.

[Tutankhamun]

Van Persie is leaving Arsenal. I can't imagine Fergie not kicking the tires to find out the price here. Personally I'm not sure he can stay healthy enough to play in a top team.

[dc89]

Van Persie is leaving Arsenal. I can't imagine Fergie not kicking the tires to find out the price here. Personally I'm not sure he can stay healthy enough to play in a top team.

Arsenal are a top team. He carried them, he can do it all right.

[Firefox]

Carried a big part of the scoring but without people like Arteta we definitely would have been outside the top 4.

[LC77]

Anyone else get a bit of deja-vu with the RVP statement? I think Rooney lent him his agent to write it.

Football really is going down the toilet, when players start trying to dictate what direction they think the club should be going.

Now is the time for a very, very cheeky Wilshire bid.

[manutdfan]

I still don't think we need Van P.

[three3-times]

id love rvp, but he is city or chelski bound, id say chelski

[manutdfan]

We've had enough injury prone players though.