View Poll Results: When should the PS4 be released?

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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    My guess would be that we'll see a much better GPU next time around, but the CPU's still a bit of a wildcard.
    True, especially now as we do know that the generational step is going to happen soon in GPU world.
    The change from NV50 to NV60.. (or from G8x series.. to something)

    There is some sweet things that are forced by DX11 compilance, including 16kx16k textures, new texture compression schemes and comute shaders.
    This would be within a year or two, so this would be the minium of what to expect from Xbox3 and Ps4.

    Cuda/Larrabee/compute shaders might bring OoO processor back cores to a main CPU, I would guess that programmers would love some 'tweaked' Core2Quad processor with nice connection to GPU.

  2. #52
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    I get the impression Microsoft want to release a new console to succeed after the 360 but are hoping Sony let slip on PS4 it's tech and system spec and possible launch date.

    Microsoft can go a head and just release a new console PS3 will be able to fight against it the CELL is beyound any CPU we have right about now and IBM/Toshiba will just keep on tweaking it over & over. By the time PS4 comes CELL will possibly be 32nm in size have a few more cores maybe faster cores who knows PS3 still hasn't been cracked to it's full potential.

    I just wish these devs for the current companies would see that and start making games on PS3 1st for a change. And keep learning the more they learn the better chance when PS4 comes out probably will be the same with just extras to learn.


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  3. #53
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    PS4 would be more of an evolution rather than a revolution. Obviously the cell, ram and Blu ray specs would be upgraded. what is more interesting would be if sony would add full motion controls like the wii to the ps4? or is it something they are already planning to do with the ps3?

    One advantage sony has is that the raw materials for the ps4 would be very cheap and it would be ideal time for sony to get rid of the old business model of sell at loss first and profit later for the hardware. Sell it for profit right away

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    Ugh.


    The hard part of Cell isn't just multicore; it's non-heterogenous multicore. Yes, people are getting used to it... But there will come no time, ever, where it is not harder to program than a conventional multicore. The advantages may or may not be worth it.
    Don't you mean non-$#@!genous multicore? So what is it about heterogenous multicores that makes it more difficult than $#@!genous?

    Actually, he's right.

    Here's the proof: Sony planned on putting two Cell processors in the PS3. They ended up replacing one of them with a fairly standard nVidia part. Why?

    Because for GPU tasks, even a generic GPU runs rings around Cell.

    Specialized hardware always wins. It was true on the Amiga, it was true when the first "accelerated" VGA cards came out, and it's true today.

    But not capable of doing them as well as a comparably-expensive GPU.

    Because not everything they do is a task GPUs are optimized for.
    But isn't the number crunching ability of the Cell a boon for graphics? Everything we see on the screen are just points in a matrix, correct? Is the Cell not an advantage in being able to perform fast math on that matrix? If not, what advantages does the Cell provide for gaming? Was the Cell just a big mistake?
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeisureSuitLarry View Post
    But isn't the number crunching ability of the Cell a boon for graphics? Everything we see on the screen are just points in a matrix, correct? Is the Cell not an advantage in being able to perform fast math on that matrix? If not, what advantages does the Cell provide for gaming? Was the Cell just a big mistake?
    In certain operations like texturing cell is just bad when compared to any GPU within 10 years.

    In GPUs texture fetch latencies are hidden and pipeline can go trough several texels each cycle.
    When using Cell you must do all basic operations of texturing by hand and latencies cannot be hidden, additionally all samples you use must be within 256KB local memory which makes things even harder.

    Larrabee does bystep lot of these problems by having dedicated texture units.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh93 View Post
    I was starting to believe it untill they started going on about the no optical drive. That would only work in America and Japan where super duper fast internet and high usage allowances were. It wouldn't work due to the fact that half the world is on dial-up still.
    What about Europe which has generally faster internet connections than USA?
    USA has relatively slow connections compared to Japan and Europe.

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  7. #57
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    the cell is great for gaming , the games just needt be optimized for its archetecture , the reason for the none duel cell wasnt because of anythig thathas to d wit aGPUs effieciency, simply put it was cost of the chip set atthe time. You ar aware that upon release ps3s chipset was more expensive then the BD to manufacture and produce. its desicion wasnt based on power nor peformanc because if so they woulve went duel cell. The ps3s cell is alot more powefull then the 360 out right due t its spu's . if you where to link a equal amunt of 360s and ps3s and make them run floating point calculations theres really no contest to be proud of the ps3 woul crush. The biggst problem is dev time and harnessig the power of the spus since right now most gams underutilize the cells raw performance numbers and ability.

    The gpu argment went out te door when the even the co director of the cell fro ibm stated that initially there was no GPU specifc plans for ps3 out right the duel cell archture was just to expensive at the time. But imagine if they did with increased ram we could see nmbers that would be crazy.


    unti developers reciev tools that current in house teams have to make more use of the cell.. We wont be seeing the level of games we want.

    remember ps3s games ports in its first gen dev kits where on par with 360 visuals on ther 6th gen dev kits


    for a new chip set on the block that was virtually unknown in the gaming world to be on par with ur known awesome gpu to start with ...def isnt somthingto scoff at.


    There is already games that are goingto surpass 360 visuals its def goigto happen with time bcause 360s GOW2 is usig 98 percent of the capablity that system is producing.

    Meanwhile whatwhere seeing now with heavy rain resis 2 are 45-50 percent of total chip set utilization. Actually heavy rain is one ofth first games rworked to utilze the spu's for peak performance


    should be a treat. The cell was also put in its pace scale wise in resist 2. The scale of the game is larger then anythig on current consoles . Even halo. This is thanks in part of the cells abliy to multitask FPcals on different planes withot sacrifcig Frame rate or txturization.

    sorry for spelling damn ps3 bt keyboard.

    Yea i go to alot of gaming events so i here alot of devlopers pros and cons lol ...
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlippone View Post
    In certain operations like texturing cell is just bad when compared to any GPU within 10 years.

    In GPUs texture fetch latencies are hidden and pipeline can go trough several texels each cycle.
    When using Cell you must do all basic operations of texturing by hand and latencies cannot be hidden, additionally all samples you use must be within 256KB local memory which makes things even harder.

    Larrabee does bystep lot of these problems by having dedicated texture units.

    check out the EDGE dev kit that sonyhas released the now have a tool that allows texturing to be done alot easier then befre its sorta described as a txture interpolation. It basiclly allows easier multiple creation of a given txture or sprite replecated by the tool so that all basic texturing can be assigned and carried out by a given tasked spu.

    Its been giving developers a hella easier expirenc with implemnting consistant high quality textures withot worrying about latencie issues as critial as it was before.

    EDGE kits where available months ago so we should start seeing more games in 09 then 08 just due to better tools alone to attract those who found he cell difficult.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izaran View Post
    But I'm almost positive this is the last console I will buy unless there is a really appealing multimedia center like there was in the PS3.
    Why? What will you use for gaming instead, a PC?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlippone View Post
    In certain operations like texturing cell is just bad when compared to any GPU within 10 years.

    In GPUs texture fetch latencies are hidden and pipeline can go trough several texels each cycle.
    When using Cell you must do all basic operations of texturing by hand and latencies cannot be hidden, additionally all samples you use must be within 256KB local memory which makes things even harder.

    Larrabee does bystep lot of these problems by having dedicated texture units.
    Sure. There is no doubt that pumping out polygons and textures is better suited for the GPU than the cell. But ultimately, it is all just data. Doesn't the CPU have a significant part to play in the operations performed on that data?
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeisureSuitLarry View Post
    Sure. There is no doubt that pumping out polygons and textures is better suited for the GPU than the cell. But ultimately, it is all just data. Doesn't the CPU have a significant part to play in the operations performed on that data?
    Cell is very good for preparing the data to be rendered or even post processing effects, but traditional triangle rendering with several layers of textures with complex shaders isn't something you want to try.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeisureSuitLarry View Post
    Sure. There is no doubt that pumping out polygons and textures is better suited for the GPU than the cell. But ultimately, it is all just data. Doesn't the CPU have a significant part to play in the operations performed on that data?
    it does , fundamentally the CPU is the engine that runs anything . You can have the best Graphics card in the world without a CPU to complement it its nothing . The CPU and its speed is what allows constant frame rates , FLPOPS , and allows mulitple partical effects and thigns to actaully happen when the game or engine of a game is being run. The PS3 has a amazing CPU, but it requires fundamental knowledge of how to actually harness its strong points since its not a traditional pipeline thats normally used when creating textures or anything reguarding FLPOPS. Its setup is harder to utilize then the 360s GPU and also harder to program for. The SPUs on the cell are the bread and butter of what the system needs to be optimized for. More cores more tasks more power distrubuted more utuilzation for partical and FLPOPS to be made and calculated.

    The cell can multitask raw information faster then any console out there and is also a multimedia monster. Its pipleline allows for the 256x2 memory to be utilized differently and effieciently spread out towards individual processes. rather then total memory being used on a given app.

    There are pros and cons to this setup. but ultimetly the processor in the PS3 is not the problem. The problem is the dev kits teaching devleopers to take more time to make the games utilize the cells spus and this equates to longer time to produce games more cost involved .

    I beleive that as sony continues to engage the RSX and unlock the stages of core use to developers we will see better and better games ultimetly surpassing the visuals on any current console minus the PC of course. lol.


    There using cell chips in super computers now ibm toshiba are already making it known that future prospects of there super computer platforms will implement the cell archtecture. This is exciting news.

    But like i said its a curse and a gift.

    Becausefor small time time developers making software for the cell will be hella costly and take longer then traditional chipsets.
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  13. #63
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    this guy is an idiot, the huge brick that is attached to the 360 is the ugliest part.. why would anyone want that for the PS4?

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeisureSuitLarry View Post


    Don't you mean non-$#@!genous multicore?
    Yes.

    So what is it about heterogenous multicores that makes it more difficult than $#@!genous?
    You can't use the cores interchangeably.

    Here's the thing. On a conventional multicore system, about 90% of the time, all you need to know is whether you're running out of "CPU time". On something like Cell, if you run out of PPE cycles, you can't just move the code to a different CPU; you have to completely redesign it. And if you run out of SPE cycles (less likely, for sure), you once again have to redesign the code. You can't just recompile, at least in this case; the CPUs are totally different.

    But isn't the number crunching ability of the Cell a boon for graphics?
    Sure!

    Everything we see on the screen are just points in a matrix, correct? Is the Cell not an advantage in being able to perform fast math on that matrix?
    It is!

    But what that means is that it's pretty easy to produce data faster than the GPU can render it.

    If not, what advantages does the Cell provide for gaming? Was the Cell just a big mistake?
    I don't think it was a big mistake. I think it was possibly not the best choice for 2007-2008, but there was no easy way to guess this in 2001.

    In general, specialized hardware is always faster than general-purpose hardware for a given price. For console hardware, one of the goals is normally to get price down as quickly as possible for a given amount of performance -- even, say, at the cost of developer time.

    In 2001, multicore looked like it would be hugely expensive, but cheaper than multiple CPUs. Cell was a brilliant design, reducing the cost of a multicore chip by using stripped down specialized cores for a particular kind of workload consoles are very heavy on. In 2001, with Sony on top of the world and no worries about developer time (developers have no choice but to target the Sony console), developer difficulties were a non-issue.

    Since then, conventional multicore has really taken off, and improvements in multicore design have dramatically improved the cost-effectiveness of multicore designs. Xenon's design was started substantially later than Cell's, and done sooner, because it's a much easier design to do. On the other hand, Sony now has competitors who have credible market share and much easier development targets.

    Sony's goals: Amazing performance to hardware cost ratio. Sony's assumptions: Developers will just have to lump it, there's no one else with even half as many consoles sold.

    What actually happened? MS jumped early, giving them a head start on credible market share. (I do not think they'd have done NEARLY as well in a straight head-to-head.) Nintendo used a totally different strategy. MS took advantage of progress in multicore design to go with something easier to make and powerful enough -- and much easier to use. Nintendo went with something fundamentally a lot simpler and just said "yeah, it's not all that powerful."

    I don't think there's an obvious way Sony could have forseen any of this, so in that respect it's not a mistake, but I think that, had they known then what they do now, they would have gone on a very different path.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    I don't think it was a big mistake. I think it was possibly not the best choice for 2007-2008, but there was no easy way to guess this in 2001.
    Humm, I am disagree with that, SONY knew Nintendo is going "handheld roadmap" way abck then.
    You can see that with the GB line ups, Frankly Nintendo never change tehir stratigy since day one in console business.
    As for MS SONY knew they will go for popular design like they did with Xbox.
    And they knew MS will drill more on development package, this was very visible in PS2 era.
    It's sort of expected what the other 2 will do, but the result of the action is the thing hard to forsee.

    Nintendo being Nintendo, they did the usually price range with good revenue and a new human interface.
    Who would have guess this "new human interface" will sotrm the whole console world.
    As for MS side they yet did anything right, it's just the situation was bad for SONY.
    Cell was harder to develope then SONY was expected.
    Even though they planned to write the compiler and development package parrallel with Cell development, it all turn to custard.
    Also PS3 was forced to do so many last minite hardware change at 2005.
    Resulting the development package was not complete well into 2006.

    Basically SONY made the same mistake they did on PS2 on PS3.
    This time not due to planning but due to unforseem matters.
    Like I said above SONY is establishing a complete roadmap for future generations od PS with PS3.
    Rather then doing one offs like PS1/PS2, PS3 is the first steping stone for PS family to come.
    The simple fact is even if SONY knew what's going to happen they still won't change the move.
    Like I always said there is nothing wrong with PS3.

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    I think Sony's mistake was not realizing how fast conventional multicore would improve.

    I guess you could make a case that, in general, the drive to move upmarket is not always a winning strategy. Sony's got a long history with disruptive technology, I'm surprised they missed this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    I think Sony's mistake was not realizing how fast conventional multicore would improve.

    I guess you could make a case that, in general, the drive to move upmarket is not always a winning strategy. Sony's got a long history with disruptive technology, I'm surprised they missed this one.
    You can't really blame SONY for that.
    Multipurpose CPU was hitting a dead end at 2001.
    I really don't see SONY made a mistake in chosing Cell.
    Cell is well design single purpose chip, it's design very similar to super computer.
    The thing is, if SONY stick with their guns on Cell,
    sofware development on Cell will become easier as experience on Cell grows.
    What SONY needs to do is to grow Cell into a design like x86.
    All Cell base CPU will have certain instruction set and so on then grow on that.
    It will be very interesting to see if Cell can become somthing like PowerPC or x86.

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    I sadly thought it was a serious article until they started mentioning the optical drive. duped.

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    I don't think Cell's advantages are anywhere close to making it competitive in the general-purpose market; there's just too much stuff which doesn't need the vector units, and then they're just dead weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    I don't think Cell's advantages are anywhere close to making it competitive in the general-purpose market; there's just too much stuff which doesn't need the vector units, and then they're just dead weight.
    Sorry if I did not make myself clear.
    What I meant is Cell could be forming a family of itself.
    Ratehr then one off CPUs like the ones in all other consoles.

    There is no doubt that Toshiba is launching it's top end TV with Cell inside.
    I am hoping SONY to follow up soon, I know SONY electronic don't like SCE.
    But this will help Cell to come down in price.
    It will be interesting to see things like TV, BD players, AV recievers and PVRs to have a Cell inside lable.

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    Im sorry to say but i dont really understand what you mean

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    Back to PS4, personally I think SONY should have a very clear mark for PS4 now.
    Basically the works they build on PS3 will be pass onto PS4.
    Things like development tools, 1st party IPs and PSN info structure.

    I will be expecting a PS4 with following spec.
    A 128 SPE Cell at 3GHz (save power by low frequency).
    4GB of system RAM, 1GB of graphic RAM.
    Latest Nvida chip with new Flex IO interface.
    New BD drive, 2.5" HDD, and all the other interfaces.

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    WAITTT!!!!!!!!!!!! theres a ps4

  24. #74
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    All rumors and nothing really to be excited about.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Yea, I'm high right now but do continue...i'm paying attention.

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