What's next for the 360 in Japan? [RPG discussion]

[Byoushinn]

I think we can all agree that Microsoft has gone out of their way to make the 360 a desirable choice in Japan, the 360 has been home specifically to a handful of RPGs, both old and new franchises, but where does the lineup go from here?

This week we've seen Star Ocean 4 launch as the biggest 360 seller, doubling the likes of Tales of Vesperia - sitting almost exactly with the first day sales of the big PS3 RPG, White Knight Chronicles. Can we assume Square Enix will reconsider releasing Final Fantasy XIII for the 360 in Japan?

Given the somewhat comfortable slew of RPG releases for the 360 in the past couple of years, can we expect the trend to continue, do you think Microsofts investment in this market was worth it?

What are your thoughts on the RPGs released for the 360? What do you want in the future? As a fan of RPGs, are you happy with how the market is right now?

We know we can expect another Mistwalker game in the future, there is also an Atlus game in develpment for the 360, what do you want to see from these developers? And from other developers?

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I made this thread because we all know how PS3 owners currently feel about the RPG situation this generation, but what about those who own a 360? I threw out a few random questions there just to give a general feel of how i'd like the discussion to be, and please keep it civil =)

[Shin Asura]

What's next for the 360 is, they need to show Japan that they aren't about first person shooters and sports games. They've been doing that by getting exclusive rights to Star Ocean 4, nice move on their part.

What they really need to do is show that they are able to access the core Japanese fan base and show them that they're serious about their product and they want to hear from what the general gaming fanbase wants to see in their console

If MS is able to put their pride aside and let the Japanese crowd influence the 360, then MS is going to see a winner. If not then they're going to have to do things the hard way

MS also needs to make a portable gaming system that is successful. Japan is really about the portable gaming more than anything, it's easy to see that with the numbers the DS puts out every time numbers are pulled.

If MS is able to change peoples minds in Japan (which is not an easy feat, trust me) then things will start looking up for them.

I may be a hardcore Sony fan, but I always love competition, it makes the other company work harder and in the end the consumer wins

I just noticed that I'm off topic -_-, my bad

[havoc19]

Hm, well if Tri Ace are sticking with 360 this gen, wouldnt be surprised if VP3 or RS2 came out for it

[Byoushinn]

Hm, well if Tri Ace are sticking with 360 this gen, wouldnt be surprised if VP3 or RS2 came out for it

Tri Ace almost seems like a second party developer to MS this gen, i know currently they have the capability to develop on the ps3 (and probably are) but they've got much more experience on the 360
I definitely think that could be possible

I wonder how they view the sales performance of Star Ocean IV so far? I mean, sure, it's had the most succesfull launch numbers of a 360 game, but for a Star Ocean game, it's not doing groundbreaking commercially - I do ponder how much Tri Ace considers the worth of a favourable 360 investment to be, and if they'll release these 360 games on the PS3 in the future or just move onto other stuff completely

Personally i think the market is really odd right now, you've got hugely popular franchises such as Star Ocean being matched by a completely new I.P such as White Knight Chronicles, it makes you think; Are the developers happy with that? Would now be a good time to drop these old franchises in favour of new ones?

[Boulayman]

I disagree with you Shin, I think they have done a great job catering to the japanese otaku crowd as evidenced by the many otaku online showing of their 360s, all those galgames that get releases on the 360 and that very high attach rates 360 rpgs have in their first two weeks. Also, all those special collectible face plates, their special relationship with famitsu, they have done a great job in letting the jap crowd influence their console.

From now on is my answer to the op post, as I don't own a 360, my opinion may not interest you so I spoilerized it

As for the future ? Well, at this point in time, I really don't think there is any chance for FF XIII to be released on the 360 in Japan. The only reason we are saying that SO4 did a great job, it's because it was released on the 360, if that game had been making that kind of numbers on the ps3 in Japan, IMHO we would all be saying it's quite a failure, I think SO4 will barely sell half of SO3 in Japan despite being advertized a hell of a lot more, it's simply a matter of mathematics and install base. The way for us to tell whether that exclusive was a sound business decision will be to pay special attention to how it does in the West because no matter how great the attach rate is in the first two weeks, it just can't compare to the ps3 install base in Japan (Just look at SF4 numbers last week, and after all,as you said in your op post, this game will barely compare to a new Level 5 IP rpg... At the rate it's going, So4 will exactly match the first week of radiata stories, a tri ace game with a far lower profile and cost...). If the game makes 190k first week, it means they could have done 380k with it on the ps3 so it doesn't really make sense to only look at the Japanese numbers to evaluate their decision, you need NA numbers, that great 360 NA install base is the bread and butter of every business decision that goes microsoft's way.

Was the investment worth it ? Strategically and gamingwise, I'd say yes, they have made the jap crowd aware of the console, made Sony play defence even in their home territory and among their rpgs, some are great. Financially, I think it wasn't worth it at all, I think they have spent significantly more just in marketing than what they are getting back from sales. The thing is, Microsoft can afford it so in the end, the good outweights the bad.

[Shin Asura]

I disagree with you Shin, I think they have done a great job catering to the japanese otaku crowd as evidenced by the many otaku online showing of their 360s, all those galgames that get releases on the 360 and that very high attach rates 360 rpgs have in their first two weeks. Also, all those special collectible face plates, their special relationship with famitsu, they have done a great job in letting the jap crowd influence their console.

From now on is my answer to the op post, as I don't own a 360, my opinion may not interest you so I spoilerized it

As for the future ? Well, at this point in time, I really don't think there is any chance for FF XIII to be released on the 360 in Japan. The only reason we are saying that SO4 did a great job, it's because it was released on the 360, if that game had been making that kind of numbers on the ps3 in Japan, IMHO we would all be saying it's quite a failure, I think SO4 will barely sell half of SO3 in Japan despite being advertized a hell of a lot more, it's simply a matter of mathematics and install base. The way for us to tell whether that exclusive was a sound business decision will be to pay special attention to how it does in the West because no matter how great the attach rate is in the first two weeks, it just can't compare to the ps3 install base in Japan (Just look at SF4 numbers last week, and after all,as you said in your op post, this game will barely compare to a new Level 5 IP rpg... At the rate it's going, So4 will exactly match the first week of radiata stories, a tri ace game with a far lower profile and cost...). If the game makes 190k first week, it means they could have done 380k with it on the ps3 so it doesn't really make sense to only look at the Japanese numbers to evaluate their decision, you need NA numbers, that great 360 NA install base is the bread and butter of every business decision that goes microsoft's way.

Was the investment worth it ? Strategically and gamingwise, I'd say yes, they have made the jap crowd aware of the console, made Sony play defence even in their home territory and among their rpgs, some are great. Financially, I think it wasn't worth it at all, I think they have spent significantly more just in marketing than what they are getting back from sales. The thing is, Microsoft can afford it so in the end, the good outweights the bad.

Eh I don't belong in multi platform talk. Going back to where I belong

[Byoushinn]

From now on is my answer to the op post, as I don't own a 360, my opinion may not interest you so I spoilerized it

As for the future ? Well, at this point in time, I really don't think there is any chance for FF XIII to be released on the 360 in Japan. The only reason we are saying that SO4 did a great job, it's because it was released on the 360, if that game had been making that kind of numbers on the ps3 in Japan, IMHO we would all be saying it's quite a failure, I think SO4 will barely sell half of SO3 in Japan despite being advertized a hell of a lot more, it's simply a matter of mathematics and install base. The way for us to tell whether that exclusive was a sound business decision will be to pay special attention to how it does in the West because no matter how great the attach rate is in the first two weeks, it just can't compare to the ps3 install base in Japan (Just look at SF4 numbers last week, and after all,as you said in your op post, this game will barely compare to a new Level 5 IP rpg... At the rate it's going, So4 will exactly match the first week of radiata stories, a tri ace game with a far lower profile and cost...). If the game makes 190k first week, it means they could have done 380k with it on the ps3 so it doesn't really make sense to only look at the Japanese numbers to evaluate their decision, you need NA numbers, that great 360 NA install base is the bread and butter of every business decision that goes microsoft's way.

Was the investment worth it ? Strategically and gamingwise, I'd say yes, they have made the jap crowd aware of the console, made Sony play defence even in their home territory and among their rpgs, some are great. Financially, I think it wasn't worth it at all, I think they have spent significantly more just in marketing than what they are getting back from sales. The thing is, Microsoft can afford it so in the end, the good outweights the bad.

That's exactly what i was just saying concerning SO4 - I think we can assume Microsoft is offering incentives for having the games release this way, but do you think this relationship will continue in the future? It's obviously good for Microsofts position in Japan, but for Star Ocean as a franchise, it is somewhat stunted having it a 360 only release, but does the effort to improve the Tri Ace/Square Enix and Microsoft relationship overrule that?

edit@shin - lol, you can stay here, the discussion doesn't have to stay specificially ontopic, and i'd rather have a mixture of different opinions rather than everyone agreeing with each other anyway :P

[Boulayman]

Eh I don't belong in multi platform talk. Going back to where I belong

Lol, I'll follow you on your wait out then. I don't belong here either, I am basically just a bum around here ^^

[Shin Asura]

edit@shin - lol, you can stay here, the discussion doesn't have to stay specificially ontopic, and i'd rather have a mixture of different opinions rather than everyone agreeing with each other anyway :P

Nah, history has ways of repeating itself

[Byoushinn]

Nah, history has ways of repeating itself

Bah, and so many posts too! :O

Don't worry though, i want to encourage a mixture of opinion to keep the discussion going, and if anyone has a problem with that, i can set them straight lol

[Shin Asura]

Bah, and so many posts too! :O

Don't worry though, i want to encourage a mixture of opinion to keep the discussion going, and if anyone has a problem with that, i can set them straight lol

All those posts came from my trying to publicize Japanese gaming to at the time the Xbox 1 crowd which were mostly fps and sports game fans

I was the sore thumb and was expendable

I don't want to resurrect that Shin Asura here cause I actually like this place so I'll watch myself

[Boulayman]

That's exactly what i was just saying concerning SO4 - I think we can assume Microsoft is offering incentives for having the games release this way, but do you think this relationship will continue in the future? It's obviously good for Microsofts position in Japan, but for Star Ocean as a franchise, it is somewhat stunted having it a 360 only release, but does the effort to improve the Tri Ace/Square Enix and Microsoft relationship overrule that?

edit@shin - lol, you can stay here, the discussion doesn't have to stay specificially ontopic, and i'd rather have a mixture of different opinions rather than everyone agreeing with each other anyway :P

It's too early for us to say, we'll be able to tell once we get February NPD numbers. For now, bandai namco would definitely say that it hasn't paid off, Square Enix will have mixed feelings because although TLR performed reasonably well it wasn't a blockbuster either and they marketed that one very heavily for the West. Tri Ace will be holding their breath about SO4, as for IU, well we both know what happened to that one. Mistwalker is a mystery for me, on one hand performing amazingly well in NA but failing to do the same in what was after all their number one goal: Japan. So I really don't know how they would feel ? Elated by LO'S NA's success ? Frustrated by having released their games too soon in Japan ? SO 4 offers us the best possible test in term of scope of the game, critics reception, fame of the IP. Its one issue is that it has a very animeish look that, I believe from the POV of a regular NA gamer, compares poorly to LO.

If the american rpg gaming market doesn't show up for SO4, then yes there will be changes and decisions made during the summer. Even if later on, FF XIII does really well for the 360 internationally, I think it will be too late by then. I don't want to sound overly dramatic but I think the future of the 360 jrpg market will be decided during the next few weeks based on what kind of commercial reception SO4 gets in the West.

[Byoushinn]

It's too early for us to say, we'll be able to tell once we get February NPD numbers. For now, bandai namco would definitely say that it hasn't paid off, Square Enix will have mixed feelings because although TLR performed reasonably well it wasn't a blockbuster either and they marketed that one very heavily for the West. Tri Ace will be holding their breath about SO4, as for IU, well we both know what happened to that one. Mistwalker is a mystery for me, on one hand performing amazingly well in NA but failing to do the same in what was after all their number one goal: Japan. So I really don't know how they would feel ? Elated by LO'S NA's success ? Frustrated by having released their games too soon in Japan ? SO 4 offers us the best possible test in term of scope of the game, critics reception, fame of the IP. Its one issue is that it has a very animeish look that, I believe from the POV of a regular NA gamer, compares poorly to LO.

If the american rpg gaming market doesn't show up for SO4, then yes there will be changes and decisions made during the summer. Even if later on, FF XIII does really well for the 360 internationally, I think it will be too late by then. I don't want to sound overly dramatic but I think the future of the 360 jrpg market will be decided during the next few weeks based on what kind of commercial reception SO4 gets in the West.

Good points there
It does seem as though when developing for the 360, the developers do seem to put much more weight on the games selling well in the west, as well as Japan (and understandably given the install base) Which seems to be different to the strategy for the PS3 (in which we've already seen some games fail to get a western release)
The Japanese market as a whole is shrinking considerably, so i can definitely understand why developers are looking to the western consumer moreso than ever (and an example of this is Square Enix's worlwide strategy) but at the same time this is contradicted by exclusive releases, so i think RPGs are in a really hard place right now, and i'm not sure if either developers or consumers are benefiting from it.

[FinalEvangelion]

One things, is it does look like MS will make that one million mark in Japan this generation, which I'm sure they will view as a milestone. Maybe that's all they need to say they could break into the Japanese market.

If there is anything upcoming, we should see an announcement. But, they did cancel Cry On, so maybe they think what they did is "good enough."

Unfortunately, the jRPG fanbase has waned in the West as Casual Games and FPSs took stage.

[Byoushinn]

One things, is it does look like MS will make that one million mark in Japan this generation, which I'm sure they will view as a milestone. Maybe that's all they need to say they could break into the Japanese market.

If there is anything upcoming, we should see an announcement. But, they did cancel Cry On, so maybe they think what they did is "good enough."

Unfortunately, the jRPG fanbase has waned in the West as Casual Games and FPSs took stage.

Cry On was cancelled, but Sakaguchi revealed that Mistwalker is working on another big RPG, his biggest project to date - which we can assume is exclusive to the 360 in place of Cry On.
I hope Microsoft continues to work with Mistwalker for a long time to come, Mistwalkers DS games bombed horrificly, and i'm not sure that financially they can take any more risks, so this is one instance where i think Microsoft offering support (specifically financially) is definitely a positive for console RPGs

[Shin Asura]

Sakaguchi desperately needs to do well on the 360 so he can make a name for himself in the gaming community again.

The father of Final Fantasy has to have some tricks up his sleeve, I really do hope he pulls through.

If he's able to create a Final Fantasyesque megaton game series for the 360 I may hop on board again but we'll see

Unfortunately he doesn't have an avenue to make a cheaper game to test the waters, if MS releases a portable system then he can make use of that

I want Mistwalker to be the new Squaresoft, new blood is always good

[Byoushinn]

Sakaguchi desperately needs to do well on the 360 so he can make a name for himself in the gaming community again.

The father of Final Fantasy has to have some tricks up his sleeve, I really do hope he pulls through.

If he's able to create a Final Fantasyesque megaton game series for the 360 I may hop on board again but we'll see

Unfortunately he doesn't have an avenue to make a cheaper game to test the waters, if MS releases a portable system then he can make use of that

I want Mistwalker to be the new Squaresoft, new blood is always good

Unfortunately, i'm not sure 'father of X series' really holds much ground in the current game climate, for example, Folklore a game for the PS3 created by Kouji Okada, the father of the Shin Megami Tensei franchise bombed miserabley in the market too.
I think developers, no matter who they are, are having a tough time with the critics this generation, western publications don't seem to take JRPGs seriously anymore, and Famitsu have a habit of being extremely safe with their reviews, tying specific score ranges to specific franchises

For Mistwalker, i personally don't think they need their 'breakthrough hit', they just need to persevere and eventually offer a wide catalogue of games, i think this is how they will show their worth - not simply through sales, because let's be honest, they're not ever going to release a Final Fantasy in terms of sales.
I think Mistwalker do have the potential to be the Square Enix of the 360, not in terms of sales, or even quality, but in terms of presence - that's if Microsoft allows it (and doesn't continue to pursue the Square Enix/Tri Ace relationship so heavily) I think it just depends on Microsofts decision.

[Shin Asura]

Unfortunately, i'm not sure 'father of X series' really holds much ground in the current game climate, for example, Folklore a game for the PS3 created by Kouji Okada, the father of the Shin Megami Tensei franchise bombed miserabley in the market too.
I think developers, no matter who they are, are having a tough time with the critics this generation, western publications don't seem to take JRPGs seriously anymore, and Famitsu have a habit of being extremely safe with their reviews, tying specific score ranges to specific franchises

For Mistwalker, i personally don't think they need their 'breakthrough hit', they just need to persevere and eventually offer a wide catalogue of games, i think this is how they will show their worth - not simply through sales, because let's be honest, they're not ever going to release a Final Fantasy in terms of sales.
I think Mistwalker do have the potential to be the Square Enix of the 360, not in terms of sales, or even quality, but in terms of presence - that's if Microsoft allows it (and doesn't continue to pursue the Square Enix/Tri Ace relationship so heavily) I think it just depends on Microsofts decision.

Yeah, I wasn't in reality mode there.

Well MS will be where the money is, they brought Sakaguchi on because of his past performance in hopes that he would be able to make great games on their console. So far I only think Lost Odyssey has been his best success.

Sakaguchis main role at MS is mainly to help them craft their way further into Japan. I'm not sure if MS knew they were going to get the cooperation from Square-Enix at the time

Times change, things never stay the same. If Sakaguchi still has it he'll be able to recreate the moments of years past, if not then MS will see him as expendable and pursue their relationship with S-E which is a better choice anyway

[Byoushinn]

Yeah, I wasn't in reality mode there.

Well MS will be where the money is, they brought Sakaguchi on because of his past performance in hopes that he would be able to make great games on their console. So far I only think Lost Odyssey has been his best success.

Sakaguchis main role at MS is mainly to help them craft their way further into Japan. I'm not sure if MS knew they were going to get the cooperation from Square-Enix at the time

Times change, things never stay the same. If Sakaguchi still has it he'll be able to recreate the moments of years past, if not then MS will see him as expendable

Yeah, i think Mistwalker offers more new IPs for Microsoft to have on the 360 (for variety) but those aren't likely to sell as well as old Square Enix franchises, that Microsoft also are in a position to chase
So the investment would either be to fund further Mistwalker projects, or to continue buttering up the Square Enix/ Tri Ace relationship with financial incentives.

Ultimately though, if all of this developer attention draws more developers to HD consoles (which slowly, it seems to be doing) then i can't complain really

[Shin Asura]

Yeah, i think Mistwalker offers more new IPs for Microsoft to have on the 360 (for variety) but those aren't likely to sell as well as old Square Enix franchises, that Microsoft also are in a position to chase
So the investment would either be to fund further Mistwalker projects, or to continue buttering up the Square Enix/ Tri Ace relationship with financial incentives.

Ultimately though, if all of this developer attention draws more developers to HD consoles (which slowly, it seems to be doing) then i can't complain really

Will be interesting to see what Mistwalkers next project is.

I wonder how many developers who are currently succeeding in the handheld market will start making their move over to HD gaming

Anyone think DVD-9 will start being an issue for some developers down the road? especially with the length of a standard RPG which usually is 40 + hours.

This is off topic, but I think ATLUS is testing the waters with their remake of Persona 1 for the PSP. Not a bad idea.

[carlosb]

If Sakaguchi still has it he'll be able to recreate the moments of years past, if not then MS will see him as expendable and pursue their relationship with S-E which is a better choice anyway

I agree with this part. They need to be will to invest more in Sakaguchi though if they want something better.

I just hope MS doesn't stop investing Japan after FXIII hits.

[Shin Asura]

I agree with this part. They need to be will to invest more in Sakaguchi though if they want something better.

I just hope MS doesn't stop investing Japan after FXIII hits.

Thanks

I don't think they will. They've worked very hard to change their appeal since the early Xbox days.

I personally never would've imagined seeing any JRPG on the 360 but here they are and they seem to be doing well

Will be interesting to see the first day sales numbers for both systems when the game releases

All assumptions are out the window on this one

[Byoushinn]

I agree with this part. They need to be will to invest more in Sakaguchi though if they want something better.

I just hope MS doesn't stop investing Japan after FXIII hits.

Well as it stands, Microsoft doesn't benefit at all from Final Fantasy XIII in Japan (PS3 exclusive release) so either they're going to try and recoup for that loss with other projects, or they're going to somehow secure a Japanese 360 release sometime after it releases in the west

It definitely seems so odd that they've been trying so hard to make a name for themselves in Japan, yet they fail to secure the release of the biggest RPG this generation, dont you think? It seems both detrimental to Microsoft and Square Enix. With this being the case, we can either assume that Microsoft will pursue a Japanese release for the game, or, that they formed the Square Enix/ Tri Ace relationship largely on getting Final Fantasy XIII on the 360 (and being happy with just a western release)

[Shin Asura]

Well as it stands, Microsoft doesn't benefit at all from Final Fantasy XIII in Japan (PS3 exclusive release) so either they're going to try and recoup for that loss with other projects, or they're going to somehow secure a Japanese 360 release sometime after it releases in the west

It definitely seems so odd that they've been trying so hard to make a name for themselves in Japan, yet they fail to secure the release of the biggest RPG this generation, dont you think? It seems both detrimental to Microsoft and Square Enix. With this being the case, we can either assume that Microsoft will pursue a Japanese release for the game, or, that they formed the Square Enix/ Tri Ace relationship largely on getting Final Fantasy XIII on the 360 (and being happy with just a western release)

FF XIII on the 360 and FF Versus XIII on the PS3

Now that would be something to see and would make the Versus title make more sense to me

[Byoushinn]

Versus XIII is an interesting subject, given the inane backlash in the gaming world over XIIIs multiplatform move, i don't think it's entirely unreasable to assume Sony have moneyhatted it - it's definitely something they need to do to remain relevant in the RPG market at the moment - they really can't afford another loss like that.