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  1. #4076
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    Should Ferrari produce a decent 2014 car. They look like the team most likely to end the RBR dominance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    but both Webber and Alonso drove for Minardi. a POS bottom of the pile backmarker team only famous for shouting really loud.

    Webber, managed 5th at Australia in that POS car. And alonso (like hamilton) routinely put his POS car well above its expected qualifying position, beating the benettons of the day.
    I think you may want to fact-check that claim. Alonso drove for Minardi 1 year and finished 23rd in the points. The only drivers ranked lower only raced in 3-4 races that season. Several drivers that missed 3-4 races finished ahead of him.

    Alonso's own teammate Tarso Marques finished ahead of him.



    As for Webber's 5th place finish, you forgot to mention that was 5th out of 8 cars that finished the race. It wasn't some great achievement of driving, he was 2 laps behind the leader and a full lap behind the 4th place Eddie Irvine in a Jaguar.
    Last edited by Completely Average; 09-12-2013 at 07:37.

  3. #4078
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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    I think you may want to fact-check that claim. Alonso drove for Minardi 1 year and finished 23rd in the points. The only drivers ranked lower only raced in 3-4 races that season. Several drivers that missed 3-4 races finished ahead of him.

    Alonso's own teammate Tarso Marques finished ahead of him.



    As for Webber's 5th place finish, you forgot to mention that was 5th out of 8 cars that finished the race. It wasn't some great achievement of driving, he was 2 laps behind the leader and a full lap behind the 4th place Eddie Irvine in a Jaguar.

    just to return to one of your earlier posts, if we are dispensing myths and giving history lessons, let's just share a few more.

    when referring to vettel finishing first in his first 2 practice sessions, I'm assuming you actually mean testing, and not official practice for an F1 event, because as everyone knows, times in testing, and indeed in practice sessions are relatively meaningless, especially on the first day? he isn't the first, and won't be the last driver to top the time sheets in a car that wasn't the best.

    if you are indeed referring to practice for his first official F1 event, you might want to check your history books again, as you seem to be all too happy to do when trying to back up his achievements. how did he really do in the race event itself?

    well, you don't seem so keen to mention that 2 of the first 3 official practice sessions, he was on average over a quarter of a second behind heidfeld. vettel managed to turn the table for the 3rd session, but still, at the end of his first introduction to an F1 weekend, he was 2-1 down.

    now onto qualifying...

    how did he do there?

    well, the history books will once again show that he was far from dazzling. he was slower than heidfeld in all 3 sessions, finishing the third the best part of three quarters of a second behind heidfeld.

    we'll never know what would have happened in the race, as heidfeld retired early on with mechanical problems. needless to say, when everything is taken into account, heidfeld was generally quicker, even with the added fact that vettel did over 20 laps more over the first 2 days.

    now, let's "despense" another myth shall we?

    the sauber was a 2nd tier team!

    was it? was it really?

    go and check your history books again, I think you'll find that the 2007 sauber was actually the 3rd best chassis of 2007, with an average best finishing position of 6th, it would have been higher had it not been for another mechanical failure late on in the season. at the end of the season, the "2nd tier backmarker team" ended up 2nd in the championship, scoring more than 4 times as many points as the red bull, and over 12 times as many as torro rosso.

    not taking anything away from vettel with his 8th, but it doesn't sound that special when the average best finishing position was 2 positions higher. I'm not belittling his achievement, it's still pretty imprssive for a first time out, but it's by no means as extraordinary as you are making out.

    that was his one outing for sauber, not fair to judge a driver on one race I know, but some people just seem to want to do it anyway, don't they???!

    torro rosso

    time to dispel another myth.

    the torro rosso was a $#@! back marker while the red bull was a front end beast.

    not true on either count, the truth is that both were a lot closer in terms of performance and results than you would like to admit.

    I was actually more impressed by his time at torro rosso than I was by his one race tenure at sauber, but even that wasn't as dazzling as the sheen you are trying to put on it.

    in the practice sessions they competed against each other in, vettel scored the faster lap 11 times compared to liuzzi's 7, but in qualifying, liuzzi finished ahead of vettel 4 times out of 7 races. again, hardly spectacular, at least not as much as you imply.

    in the 3 races at torro rosso they finished together, liuzzi finished ahead of vettel twice.

    that leads to his first full season in F1, 2008. a season in which he partnered bordais, a driver who only knew how to fail. I think it's fair to say that considering just how diabolical he was, he did as much to add gloss to vettel's performances as the man did himself.

    then came the webber era, in which his team mate has been, as you put it "mediocre"

    so all in all, excluding liuzzi who was closer to him than you'd care to admit, you can't really take more out of his career in terms of information, other than the fact that he was better than bordais and webber, and for the least few years has had what has been on balance, the best car on the grid.

    for all those reasons, and taking his 4 world championships & 32 wins into account, for me and for many people, he is still an unknown quantity.

    I'm not belittling what he's done, and I'm not calling him an average driver. for the record, I think he's a very good driver who is doing the best with what he has been given, and that is not his fault. what I am saying is that there are a lot of questions that won't be answered until he is either partnered with a better team mate, or until he leaves red bull so people can see if the performance follows him.

    you slate hamilton for not working his way up the field, but he has at least switched teams, and after doing so, has proven against a better team mate than webber or bordais that he wasn't being carried by his team.

    PS.

    alonso might not have shone when he was at minardi so much, but he has done more to crawl to the summit of F1 than vettel has, or hamilton for that matter, out of the three, he is the only one who can say with complete honesty that he DID start from the bottom and managed to win a world championship. furthermore, the only reason marques finished above him ONCE was because alonso retired towards the end of the race.

    the 2001 minardi was so bad, it had nowhere else to finish but at the back.
    Last edited by Surebrec; 09-12-2013 at 12:16.
    Don't waste your words I don't need anything from you.
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  5. #4079
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    ^^^

    That my friends, is what you call ENDED, game set and match, its all over.

    Sub, you and i have never seen eye to in this thread, but thank you for posting this bro,

    FYI, i never hated you, im just stubborn as hell! More often than not you know what your talking about and i couldnt win our debates!!!

    Thanks to Final for the sick sig!

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    in other news

    Singapore track has been modified. we shouldn't be dancing so close to the 2 hour limit this year ...thank goodness!

    Track modifications to lower lap times in Singapore

    Race organisers in Singapore have modified the Marina Bay Street Circuit’s layout ahead of the forthcoming 2013 Formula 1 Singtel Singapore Grand Prix.

    The chicane at Turn 10, known as ‘Singapore Sling’, has been removed and replaced by a single-apex left-hand bend.

    Simulations conducted by Formula One racing’s governing body, the FIA, suggest that the speed of cars approaching the realigned corner could be up to 40 km/h faster.

    Ferrari’s Fernando Alonso confirmed that lap times should be lower this year, tweeting: “Working in the simulator. New Turn 10 in Singapore this year, without the chicane of before. The lap is around one second faster.”

    To compensate for the increase in speed, an extra layer of TecPro barriers will line the end of the Turn 10 run-off as an added safety measure.

    Other changes to the circuit ahead of this year’s race include some minor resurfacing work, which is a result of use by daily traffic. The sections affected include the first three turns, Turn 5, Turn 8, and Esplanade Drive (between Turns 13 and 14). The pit lane has also been resurfaced as some ground settlement was observed.
    http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin...3/9/14975.html
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  7. #4081
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    You say 2 hours like it's a bad thing!! Mind you, i was happy enough to watch ALL of that infamous Canada race a few years back

    Man, can't we just give Seb his 4th title already? You have no idea how excited I am to see Ferrari next year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBK.. View Post
    You say 2 hours like it's a bad thing!! Mind you, i was happy enough to watch ALL of that infamous Canada race a few years back

    Man, can't we just give Seb his 4th title already? You have no idea how excited I am to see Ferrari next year.
    Ferrari?
    Really?

    The main reason Lewis moved to Merc was cos he knew their engine would make them the car to beat if not level the playing field with Red Bull. I dont rate Raikkonen and never really have.......still cant believe he nicked the WDC that year!!

    But yeah, this year will just be a who can finish 2nd place
    Last edited by 33x; 09-12-2013 at 15:27.

    Thanks to Final for the sick sig!

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    Yeah man! Kimi and Fred on the same team? Do you really think either of them are going to want to play number 2? it's going to be interesting for sure.

    Personally I feel Alonso will be the faster of the two (he's, in my opinion the best driver on the grid. I say that as a Hamilton fan) And I believe Kimi will only push him further. If Ferrari manage to produce a decent car next year (stop laughing, it is possible) then i think they might be the team to take it to Red Bull.

    As it stands though, i'd say Ferrari, then Mercedes have the best driver line ups on the grid.

  10. #4084
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBK.. View Post
    Yeah man! Kimi and Fred on the same team? Do you really think either of them are going to want to play number 2? it's going to be interesting for sure.

    Personally I feel Alonso will be the faster of the two (he's, in my opinion the best driver on the grid. I say that as a Hamilton fan) And I believe Kimi will only push him further. If Ferrari manage to produce a decent car next year (stop laughing, it is possible) then i think they might be the team to take it to Red Bull.

    As it stands though, i'd say Ferrari, then Mercedes have the best driver line ups on the grid.
    They will have the strongest driver line up for sure followed by merc.
    nando is defo the faster of the 2 and probably the no1 driver....just!

    I really think the engine regs will level the playing field and take away a lot of neweys input.......lewis aint as stupid as people think. Merc should have the best/fastest engine next year......(i hope!)

    Thanks to Final for the sick sig!

  11. #4085
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surebrec View Post
    blah blah blah....
    That's a pretty pathetic way of trying to say "You are right, Alonso SUCKED his first year, and Webber only scored points because he was so far back from his typical horrible starts that he missed being in the first corner wreck."




    As for what I said earlier, it's pretty clear. Doesn't take much reading to figure it out, so I don't understand why you have such trouble with it.

    In 2006 Vettel joined Sauber as a test driver with just 5 races to go. He had the top lap time in both his first two OFFICIAL Practice sessions (NOT Test sessions, pre-race practice) in the car, not only beating both teammate times, but everyone else as well. This was in a car he had never sat in compared to two teammates who each had 11 races in the car already.

    In 2007 he raced in his first race. So your claimed "two of his first 3 official practice sessions" really happened a full year before his first race and you're totally wrong about the times. You would have known that if you had bothered to do a little fact checking there before making your claims.


    Back to 2007 and his first race. He qualified 7th and finished 8th. This was as a backup driver during the 7th race of the season when Kubica was injured, so the car was not designed or setup for him. Seating position was all wrong, setup was for Kubica, etc...

    Still, coming in less than a second behind an experienced teammate while driving a car that was setup for a different driver is a pretty good result for a backmarker team and a rookie driver. No? Has Hamilton ever driven a car that wasn't setup for him? How about Alonso, who finished his first season DEAD LAST in points out of the drivers that raced the full season and behind his teammate?



    Now on to your next fabrication. Where did I ever say the 2007 Red Bull was a "front end beast" as you claim?

    I'll give you time to go back and search that one. See if you can find it. If not, then I suggest you stick to countering things I actually said rather than coming up with your own fabrications.


    As far as Liuzzi vs Vettel, let's go back to that 7 races issue, shall we? Tell me, were those 7 races at the end of the season when Liuzzi already had 10 full races worth of experience driving the car while Vettel had spent the past year as a Sauber driver? So wouldn't it stand to reason that the person with more experience with the car might get slightly better results at first?

    However, in those 7 races Vettel ultimately outscored Liuzzi's entire 17 race season in WDC points, didn't he?

    And in the Chinese GP where he scored points he did that after starting in 17th position, and beat his teammate who started 11th, didn't he?





    Now let's move on to how close Toro Rosso and Red Bull were at the time.

    Red Bulls average finishing position was 12th. Toro Rosso was 18th. Red Bull finished 5th in the Constructors Championship with 24 points, Toro Rosso finished 7th with just 8 points, 5 of which came from Vettel. Without Vettel Toro Rosso only scored 3 points for the entire season, 8 times less than Red Bull.

    That's how close they really were.




    Then comes the 2008 season, where Vettel had to suffer with a car that failed to finish any of it's first 4 races and only managed a 17th in the 5th race.

    Still, once he got the new chassis he was off like a rocket. In the remaining 13 races he finished 11. Of those 11 races he scored points in 9. His average finishing position was 5th. In just 13 races he managed to outscore both Red Bull drivers COMBINED.

    He finished the season in 8th place while driving for a team that was ranked 6th out of 11 and having 5 mechanical DNFs.


    And FYI, in 2012 Vettel made more on-track passes for position than any other driver.




    You have your opinion, which I rather suspect is heavily influenced by that British flag next to your name.

    The undeniable FACT is that as far as F1 goes, neither Alonso not Hamilton have ever been tested as hard as Vettel. Neither Alonso nor Hamilton has ever achieved half as much in a mid-pack car like Vettel has. Alonso and Hamilton have only ever won in cars that were competing for Drivers and Constructors championships, neither has won a race in a car that was 6th or worse in Constructors Championship. The most either of them can claim is that in 2008 Alonso finished 5th in the WDC driving a car that finished 4th (And would have finished an easy 3rd and possibly even 2nd if it wasn't for Piquet Jr's NINE DNFs) in the Constructors Championship.
    Last edited by Completely Average; 09-12-2013 at 18:56.

  12. #4086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    I never said alonso sucked in his first year, you might want to avoid trying to read between the lines, neither did I say that about webber. all I said that he didn't shine.

    he did do a hell of a lot better than you either realise, or simply refuse to give him credit for. you are just obsessed with focusing on the fact that he finished below marques, and have used a rather misguiding parameter to do so.

    the ONLy reason marques finished above him, was because he scored a higher finish than alonso did, which coincidentally occured in the races alonso himself failed to finish. what you are not including in all this, is the fact that not only did alonso out-qualify marques by 12-2, but he generally out-performed him in the races themselves just as decisively. in qualifying, he quite often placed the minardi off the back row of the grid, a feat his team mate could not do. now add to all that the fact that alonso was green to F1, whereas marques had past experience in the sport. taking all this into account, his achievements were far from terrible.

    the statistics you are pinning his finishing below marques don't explain how much better than marques he really was, or how he could have potentially scored several solid finishes well within the top 10 in 2001, but mechanical unreliability robbed him of the chance of doing so on more than a few occasions.

    that's kind of a weak point to try to build a case in all honesty, it really is.



    your other argument you didn't make clear at all, it's usually standard practice to include the year when any length of time has past, just to avoid confusion. that was your doing, not mine.

    however, after checking back, you are absolutely correct, I apologise. in his first official practice session, he DID score the fastest time as you say.

    this bring up another interesting thought.

    you later go on to excuse him being able to dominate heidfeld or liuzzi because of his lack of experience in the car when they had a full season behind it. this may be the case, but it doesn't explain how he managed to adapt to the 2006 sauber so fast managing to put in those impressive times. surely, if he could have adapted that quickly to the 2006 car in practice, he could have at least adapted to the 2007 car for the full event itself just as fast?

    or maybe, just maybe, the times he put in in practice could be explained thusly:

    vettel being a new and inexperienced driver with a newly appointed official position within the team, was sent out with a car with the the sole purpose of getting a feel for it, gradually lowering his time as he gained confidence, and as the track evolved and fuel loads dropped.

    meanwhile, on the other side of the garage, his more experienced team mate has been assigned a program that wasn't targeted at setting the overall fastest lap. this is what commonly happens in practice, each driver is assigned a programme to test various things out. if a reserve driver is appointed for the session, depending on the team, they are told to go out without programme restriction just to get a feel for the car.

    I'd be prepared to believe this scenario, rather than make the error of reading too much into times set in practice sessions.

    again, back to 2007 as you say



    are you honestly trying to tell me that an appointed reserve driver wouldn't have a seat fitted in advance in case of things like this??? if true, that is just stupid. no other team would be so ill-prepared in such a dangerous sport as to not have a seat fitted for all their drivers. even if he didn't have a seat fitted in advance, he and the team would have had the best part of a week in which to get one fitted, more than enough time.

    where did you get this information?

    regarding the car not being designed for him, neither was the 2006 one that he put those impressive pratcice times in with. again, a baffling excuse to say the least. if he could get used to the 2006 car, he should have had no problem with its 2007 counterpart, unless of course..... you read too much into the times set in practice sessions.



    I'll skip over the rant against alonso, as I have already responded to that.

    you didn't mention "front end beast", and I was being rather sarcastic at that point, my apologies if you didn't pick up on it.

    I was somewhat exaggerating for effect, but not by that much. you have an habit of making more out of vettel's performances, so I thought I'd do the same in terms of the chassis available.

    the truth is, that despite the average finishing position, the performance csapabilities weren't a million miles apart.

    regarding liuzzi, again, I'll skip as I have already addressed the issue of little-no experience.

    one thing I will point out though, is you are once again cherry picking results that favour vettel. yeah, he did above liuzzi, you are right, but that came about by a single points finish (assuming you are excluding the sauber finish, I mean, even you have to admit that would be unfair) which can and does happen.

    even in that race, his team mate was only 2 places behind him. situations like this happen, and people like you usually do jump all over them to try to form some type of justification to an argument.

    how did he fair against liuzzi in the other 2 races they both completed?


    now we are onto 2008, where we really can start to compare.

    for all his achievements in 2008, and I'm not taking these away from him, his only yardstick was sebastien bourdais, who as I have said, only knew how to fail.

    it's easy to read things into a drivers performance, but without a reliable source to measure against, you can't truly know just how good/bad the performances were.

    on the face of it, vettel's 2008 performances were great, but what could a better team mate have done in that machinery?

    we'll never know. bourdais tenure in F1 has widely been accepted as a failure by many an F1 journalist, and his performances did as much to shine favourable light on vettel as his own results did.

    and onto his red bull tenure, a period in which you yourself labeled his only comparison as "mediocre", and have also admitted that he has had the best car.

    he's won 3 world championships, and is looking at tying up a 4th, as well a scoring 32 wins.

    but how much of that is down to vettel, and how much is it down to the "newey effect"?

    the only undeniable fact is as I said, he has in all fairness only been tested against bourdais and webber, and a declining webber at that, who was starting to pass his sell by date before vettel even joined red bull.

    I was more than happy just focusing on these periods, you were the one who felt the need to slink all the way back to 2006 to regale us all with his practice times to add weight to his achievements.


    I think it's somewhat pathetic that you try to pass off my opinion as being based on my nationality.

    I share the same opinion as many F1 fans, a surprising amout of which are german, you are making more out of that than I am.

    I have stated many times that I think he's a good driver, and he is doing the best and getting the results with the equipment he has at hand. but, there is the sticking point of his only true measures being an over-the-hill team mate who is clearly not as good as he is, and a non-starter whose F1 venture was failure at almost every step.

    I'm not even going to bother with the new additions to the argument that you added, once again, you are cherry picking and adding variables that are unnecessary to try to build a case for the defence.
    Don't waste your words I don't need anything from you.
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    I always thought I liked F1 until Surebrec and CA start talking....

    Now I feel like I only know that the cars go fast And i've been watching F1 religiously for quite some time now. I used to refuse to work Sundays because it was race-day

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    Ricciardo Interview:


    the grin on the inside of his head probably eclipses the grin he's showing to everybody else!

    how much do you guys rekon his salary will increase by?

    current estimated breakdown:
    1. Fernando Alonso Ferrari €20m
    = Lewis Hamilton Mercedes €20m
    3. Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes €16m
    4. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing €12m
    5. Nico Rosberg Mercedes €11m
    6. Mark Webber Red Bull Racing €10m
    7. Felipe Massa Ferrari €6m
    8. Kimi Raikkonen Lotus F1 Team €3m
    9. Sergio Perez McLaren-Mercedes €1.5m
    10. Romain Grosjean Lotus F1 Team €1m
    = Pastor Maldonado Williams €1m
    = Nico Hulkenberg Sauber €1m
    13. Valtteri Bottas Williams €600,000
    14. Jules Bianchi Marussia €500,000
    = Adrian Sutil Force India F1 €500,000
    16. Paul di Resta Force India F1 €400,000
    = Daniel Ricciardo Scuderia Toro Rosso €400,000
    = Jean-Eric Vergne Scuderia Toro Rosso €400,000
    19. Esteban Gutierrez Sauber €200,000
    20. Charles Pic Caterham €150,000
    = Giedo van der Garde Caterham €150,000
    = Max Chilton Marussia €150,000

    http://www.crash.net/f1/news/191002/...arns_most.html

    I'd suspect it'd be around Perez.

    But the list serves two purposes.....remember when Schumey was racking in $70m a year!! he was getting paid more the the top 4 combined! O_O sweet jejus F1 has come a long way since then; yet lotus still struggle to pay their drivers smh
    Sig courtesy of the_jim


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    Ricciardo Interview:


    the grin on the inside of his head probably eclipses the grin he's showing to everybody else!

    how much do you guys rekon his salary will increase by?

    current estimated breakdown:
    1. Fernando Alonso Ferrari €20m
    = Lewis Hamilton Mercedes €20m
    3. Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes €16m
    4. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing €12m
    5. Nico Rosberg Mercedes €11m
    6. Mark Webber Red Bull Racing €10m
    7. Felipe Massa Ferrari €6m
    8. Kimi Raikkonen Lotus F1 Team €3m
    9. Sergio Perez McLaren-Mercedes €1.5m
    10. Romain Grosjean Lotus F1 Team €1m
    = Pastor Maldonado Williams €1m
    = Nico Hulkenberg Sauber €1m
    13. Valtteri Bottas Williams €600,000
    14. Jules Bianchi Marussia €500,000
    = Adrian Sutil Force India F1 €500,000
    16. Paul di Resta Force India F1 €400,000
    = Daniel Ricciardo Scuderia Toro Rosso €400,000
    = Jean-Eric Vergne Scuderia Toro Rosso €400,000
    19. Esteban Gutierrez Sauber €200,000
    20. Charles Pic Caterham €150,000
    = Giedo van der Garde Caterham €150,000
    = Max Chilton Marussia €150,000

    http://www.crash.net/f1/news/191002/...arns_most.html

    I'd suspect it'd be around Perez.

    But the list serves two purposes.....remember when Schumey was racking in $70m a year!! he was getting paid more the the top 4 combined! O_O sweet jejus F1 has come a long way since then; yet lotus still struggle to pay their drivers smh

    I think you are right, it will be between perez and raikkonen.

    he'll know he's getting a good seat, but I think deep down inside, hell know he can't bite too much off the stick that is being dangled in front of him. there are other drivers around, better qualified than him, that would give a testicle to be in the position he finds himself.
    Don't waste your words I don't need anything from you.
    I don't care where you've been or what you plan to do.
    I am the resurrection and I am the light.
    I couldn't ever bring myself to hate you as I'd like.

  17. #4091
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    BBC seriously do the best pre-show features! shame they only get 10 races a year



    top quality stuff considering their relegated position
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    sky did something similar with brundle, hill, herbert & button.
    Don't waste your words I don't need anything from you.
    I don't care where you've been or what you plan to do.
    I am the resurrection and I am the light.
    I couldn't ever bring myself to hate you as I'd like.

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    I knew Mclaren wanted him really

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula-one/24171278

    Thanks to Final for the sick sig!

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    Who doesn't want Fred? I think he is the best driver on the grid. But anyway, i don't think he'll go back to McLaren
    http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/89...-Leave-Ferrari

    Anyway...

    1. Vettel
    2. Rosberg
    3. Grosjean

    Looks like Sunday is going to be another procession. I wonder if Rosberg can hold on to second. That Lotus looked damn quick

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    Vettel on Pole, watch his flying lap.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24189708

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surebrec View Post
    I never said alonso sucked in his first year, you might want to avoid trying to read between the lines, neither did I say that about webber. all I said that he didn't shine.
    Are you on crack? Did you fall on your head and hurt your brain?


    What you said was...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post

    but both Webber and Alonso drove for Minardi. a POS bottom of the pile backmarker team only famous for shouting really loud.

    Webber, managed 5th at Australia in that POS car. And alonso (like hamilton) routinely put his POS car well above its expected qualifying position, beating the benettons of the day.

    No, you didn't say Alonso sucked, you claimed he was beating the Benettons.

    In reality he finished DEAD LAST. He didn't even beat his own teammate, much less than Benettons. Like Webber in the Mindardi, Alonso's rookie year best finish of the season was 10th in a race where 11th place was a DNF.



    I'm not going to bother with the rest until you get a better grip on reality there. At this point I have to assume you have no idea what you originally said and you're just making things up as you go, changing your claims and views to match the moment. When you can decide on what you actually believe in and can stick to those beliefs, let me know and we'll discuss things from there.
    Last edited by Completely Average; 09-22-2013 at 03:52.

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    You quoted 2 different people there.

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    errr, im not Surebrec o_O
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    Oh dear...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    Are you on crack? Did you fall on your head and hurt your brain?


    What you said was...




    No, you didn't say Alonso sucked, you claimed he was beating the Benettons.

    In reality he finished DEAD LAST. He didn't even beat his own teammate, much less than Benettons. Like Webber in the Mindardi, Alonso's rookie year best finish of the season was 10th in a race where 11th place was a DNF.



    I'm not going to bother with the rest until you get a better grip on reality there. At this point I have to assume you have no idea what you originally said and you're just making things up as you go, changing your claims and views to match the moment. When you can decide on what you actually believe in and can stick to those beliefs, let me know and we'll discuss things from there.
    no, but I'm starting to think you might be


    where did I say he was beating benettons?

    once again, you are taking statistics for their face value.
    Don't waste your words I don't need anything from you.
    I don't care where you've been or what you plan to do.
    I am the resurrection and I am the light.
    I couldn't ever bring myself to hate you as I'd like.

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