Will it ever be possible to remove aliasing in games/movies

[UCONN for life]

With all the talk in new consoles being about AA, I can't but help wonder if it is even possible to achieve total A.A. with display technology that is present today. Since every T.V. uses square pixels, the picture can never show a perfect circle, since it is impossible to make a perfect circle with squares. Is this a valid concern? Please respond.

[MiThRaZoR]

Zoom out, and if the naked eye sees a perfect circle. Well, it's a perfect circle. Why work yourself for something that would look exactly the same to the naked eye.

Fps is a different issue. (Frames per second)

[don-sf]

well until someone like you comes along and invents a new revolutionairy tv which uses round pixels we have to rely on current methods.

[Knuckles126]

Yes...with the PS3!

Key features:

120 FPS with a possible 240 FPS in the near furture!

Full anti-aliasing on EVERYTHING!

PS3 provides it's own popcorn!

CGI graphics with REAL emotions!

PS3 will grow legs and walk on command! (no more lugging :P )

Produce 4D graphics with ease!

Display Japanese movies (Godzilla) in real time! Both voice and lips will be displayed naturally!

Will raise the Titanic!

Cell also features the software program J.E.A.L.O.U.S! When your girlfriend/wife gets to cuddley with you, it displays a picture of Ken Kutaragi!

Songs come pre-loaded on the hard drive! Songs include: "I Need a Vacation" by Peter Moore, and "I Want Your Motherboard" by Bill Gates!

And finally, will talk to you when your feeling lonely!



(NOTE: none of the above is to be taken serious, although I would love it if Ken Kutaragi would write a novel on PS3 )

[mrnagy88]

lol, funny...

I think on old TV's, the picture was analogue, so nothing looked pixelated, even though the resolution was actualy very very low, it was by nature without alias...


With Digital TV, they are taking a picture from an analogue source, such as a video camera, and converting it to digital, but by picking up the picture a certain way, it can also be naturally 'alias free'.

It's mostly when you have a digital image source that you start seeing pixels, just blur your eyes a little, and it will be all better

[MiThRaZoR]

The first one that you said could be done. Companies are coming out with TVs that could have 120fps. Hitachi just revealed one awhile back.

But funny. =\

[immortal]

Yes...with the PS3!

Key features:

120 FPS with a possible 240 FPS in the near furture!

Full anti-aliasing on EVERYTHING!

PS3 provides it's own popcorn!

CGI graphics with REAL emotions!

PS3 will grow legs and walk on command! (no more lugging :P )

Produce 4D graphics with ease!

Display Japanese movies (Godzilla) in real time! Both voice and lips will be displayed naturally!

Will raise the Titanic!

Cell also features the software program J.E.A.L.O.U.S! When your girlfriend/wife gets to cuddley with you, it displays a picture of Ken Kutaragi!

Songs come pre-loaded on the hard drive! Songs include: "I Need a Vacation" by Peter Moore, and "I Want Your Motherboard" by Bill Gates!

And finally, will talk to you when your feeling lonely!



(NOTE: none of the above is to be taken serious, although I would love it if Ken Kutaragi would write a novel on PS3 )

what a useless comment. i doubt FULL AA will ever be achieved, but something close to it will be achieved sooner than u think.

[solinent]

Yes...with the PS3!

Key features:

120 FPS with a possible 240 FPS in the near furture!

Full anti-aliasing on EVERYTHING!

PS3 provides it's own popcorn!

CGI graphics with REAL emotions!

PS3 will grow legs and walk on command! (no more lugging :P )

Produce 4D graphics with ease!

Display Japanese movies (Godzilla) in real time! Both voice and lips will be displayed naturally!

Will raise the Titanic!

Cell also features the software program J.E.A.L.O.U.S! When your girlfriend/wife gets to cuddley with you, it displays a picture of Ken Kutaragi!

Songs come pre-loaded on the hard drive! Songs include: "I Need a Vacation" by Peter Moore, and "I Want Your Motherboard" by Bill Gates!

And finally, will talk to you when your feeling lonely!



(NOTE: none of the above is to be taken serious, although I would love it if Ken Kutaragi would write a novel on PS3 )

what a useless comment. i doubt FULL AA will ever be achieved, but something close to it will be achieved sooner than u think.

Congratulations! You just commented on the useless comment! Anyways full AA is already in the 360 and PS3. It works great.

[NationStater]

Its already been done, ever heard of flim?

There is no AA in flim. And moive quality flim is unmatched in quality and resoultion.

[UCONN for life]

I guess that the only way would be to display through film, but that wouldn't work. Would a projector cure this, as there are no pixels, just a beam of light? I'm kinda interested in optics.

[hisame]

You will never get anything that's alising free if it's raster base image.
That's how nearly 90% of all digitall imaging works, raster image.
Only very few scientific or design type image uses pure vector files for image.
Even though 3D vertex frame work is generated real time in vector, ie aliasing free.
But when you transfer that frame onto a display you need to map it pixel by pixel, which is back to raster again.
Not only that but a lot of "new 3D sahdowing" like pixel shading and global lighting all use raster base processing.
Since raster is only a 4D processing, x, y, color, brightness,
where vector is over 7D processing, x, y, z, color, brightness, dot product, rotation.
This greatly reduce the processing power required for real time imaging, by ratering the vector image.
But in doing so you produce a artifact call aliasing, so you run the image through AA once or 4 times 4xAA.
As long as we still use raster, you will always have aliasing.

The answer is "NO" there is no way to get rip of aliasing in realtime gaming.
Except you want to run the same graphical quality game with 3 times the processing power.
Frankly aliasing going to stay for a long long time to come.

[Itaintrite]

Its already been done, ever heard of flim?

There is no AA in flim. And moive quality flim is unmatched in quality and resoultion.

Just what the hell is flim? I've never heard of such thing. Flim?

Is it Fluorescence Lifetime Imaging Microscopy?

[Evil_the_Cat]

Since every T.V. uses square pixels, the picture can never show a perfect circle, since it is impossible to make a perfect circle with squares. Is this a valid concern? Please respond.

That just means its more realistic. there is no such thing as a perfect circle in real life either...

[NextGenHorn]

What is AA (anti-aliasing)? Basically is any method that somehow blends 2 or more colors near each other, to simulate a soft transition between them. This will give the observer the ideia that there are no jaggies.

I have faith in future TV sets to achieve this. I believe consoles and movie players just don't have to waste any resources on this, but the output devices.

Be aware that I'm not very techy, this is just my understanding of this issue.

[PS3 rocks]

Yes...with the PS3!

Key features:

120 FPS with a possible 240 FPS in the near furture!

Full anti-aliasing on EVERYTHING!

PS3 provides it's own popcorn!

CGI graphics with REAL emotions!

PS3 will grow legs and walk on command! (no more lugging )

Produce 4D graphics with ease!

Display Japanese movies (Godzilla) in real time! Both voice and lips will be displayed naturally!

Will raise the Titanic!

Cell also features the software program J.E.A.L.O.U.S! When your girlfriend/wife gets to cuddley with you, it displays a picture of Ken Kutaragi!

Songs come pre-loaded on the hard drive! Songs include: "I Need a Vacation" by Peter Moore, and "I Want Your Motherboard" by Bill Gates!

And finally, will talk to you when your feeling lonely!

Meh like the 360 can't .

[toontoonizer]

We will only get rid of aliasing if we get rid of pixels, or invent special shape changing pixels which morph into the edge's shape, or when we hit super-high resolutions where the pixels are too small for the human eye to see, therefore removing the jaggies.

I think we have a long way to go before that happens. Aliasing is much more apparent in gaming rather then television and film. In tv/film curves are natural and not digitally created, for example, the outline of a human is not blocky because humans arent made of polygons. Polygons have sharp angles and even there curves are made up a series of small straight lines, hence when transferred to a Pixel-based display those edges become pronounced.

Either that or until they build in a seperate cell designed just to handle AA. Now that would be awesome. Like 32x AA with no performance hit. YEAH BABY . but i doubt that will happen.

[Jugix]

In 10 to 20 years there will be displays with 7680x4320 resolution. Just add 64xFSAA and you are set! Problem solved and thread locked.

NEXT!

[Graham]

Jugix is pretty much correct - it's all about screen resolution.

So why is this thread still open in the PS3 forum anyway?! It has nothing to do with PS3.

[Jacobi1981]

if a game was designed to use motion blue on everything, wouldnt that eliminate the need to use AA?

isnt that how we see? move your hand out in front of you and shake it, its all blured, no need for any AA there.

[solinent]

you won't see aliasing on a display of 1080p probably. And to jugix, if you're allready at that resoution, there's no point of FSAA. FSAA just increases the resoultion by x number of times to reduce aliasing.

[hisame]

By the looks of the posts most people don't know what aliasing is.
Alliasing is a distortion or artifect you get from filtering a raster image.
Filtering in image processing includes simple displacement, pam, and rotation.
So what happens when you displace a rater image,
all you do is pass the image via a 2D vector like (x,y) via addition, subtraction, or dot product.
And you get the aliasing effect when the resultent vector is not in integer.
You can't really display half a pixel on a display, so by pixel to pixel mapping you round off.
This produce a jiggy or misty effect on the edge of the image we call aliasing.

So what is AA, frankly that does the same thing as sharpen filter in your photoshop.
All it does is use 4x4 or up to 64x64 rater map find the ralative color and brightness location,
and round off the middle range towards the extrem ranges.
Make it simple it pass the image through a 4D mid no-pass filter.
Yes, mid no-pass filter, a filter pass high and low frequency signal not the mid range.
4xAA means passing the filter 4 times using 4 stages.

So how to get rip of aliasing completly, very simple run all your filtering and processing on vector.
Only do pixel to pixel snap shot right at the end to match your display.
Then you get no aliasing, but it also means do all your processing in a much math intensive enviroment.
So you need to run ray tracing instead of pixel shading,
since ray tracing is the vector alternative of pixel shading.
You need over 3 times more processing power to do the same job on average if you do it on a vector base image.
That's why all game makers use AA instead of running everything in vector.

[The_One]

@hisame: Vector outputs will have no aliasing at the data level, however, when anything is outputted on a screen, it's still going to inherently have aliasing because it's on a screen with square pixels...

[Panda Bear Shenyu]

Aliasing will only be history when the PS <#> directly communicates with your brain, which doesn't think in pixels.

[Graham]

Aliasing will be history when display resolutions reach such a point where the human eye cannot resolve the detail (at normal viewing distances we are talking about here).

[ard master]

Do you think it could be possible for the tv to actually make it's pixles exactly how they should be. For example would it be possible for the tv too make a triangular or circular pixel of any size. In the future of corse.