Project Natal still has a multi-processor that runs the software

[ONQ]

We attended the demonstration in Madrid Natal Project


Months after the spectacular presentation at E3 last year, finally had the chance to have it in our hands (or rather, before our bodies) and see first hand what exactly this new invention from Microsoft, Project Natal . The presentation was in an apartment downtown Madrid, in a relaxed atmosphere, with all built in what could be the room of any house. The presentation began with the viewing of the video that we saw at E3, with the whole family playing in front of television contests, the guy scanning your skateboard, or the girl choosing a dress which Tom Cruise in Minority Report.

During the presentation gave us very well the excitement of Microsoft in introducing this product, unveiling its versatility and functionality of the appliance, the idea is that besides being a gaming platform, will become the hub of the house for leisure, entertainment and communications. Find out more about our impressions after the jump.

Also made it clear that Natal has its own processor, which would be valid for all versions of the XBox 360 in the market, and as for the controversy of space for play and exercise, with a distance of six feet would be sufficient to detect all movements of the body.



As you know the Natal Project is the first worldwide sensor that uses a 3D video camera, a depth sensor, a microphone and a multi-processor that runs the software, all from the same apparatus. Unlike the 2-dimensional cameras, "Project Natal" 3D analysis of whole-body movements while introducing the commands, the direction of movement or even the tone of voice. It was funny to tell us that the image we've all seen the sensor will not be the final aspect of marketing , which now are still working on it, and that between now and Christmas many things can change.



At last came the time of the test. At first glance expect a sensation like the Eye Toy for Sony , more developed, but basically a motion sensor. But once the sensor detected me the feeling was quite different, and of course, very very surprising. The first is the creation of the avatar, a semi-transparent figure that repeats every move. Add to perfection the movement of the joints and gives me a sense of space that had never experienced. Perhaps there is a very small mismatch, but could also be due to inexperience in handling. I think more than a mismatch is to be used to the cadence of the device itself. I could not resist to do some breakdance moves seen as reacting to the avatar, and the sequence and movement coordination was perfect. Perhaps what I call the attention on the test, the game where you had to throw a ball to destroy a brick wall that we've seen in other videos, was that the sensor was capable of detecting the speed of movements hands, giving the ball a greater momentum, and above all, the directionality of the path and can point to give the ball to either side of the screen.

The most rewarding thing: always wanting to play more. It is still strange to play without having to press buttons, but the mere fact of using the whole body and not just his hands as the Wii , and represents a qualitative leap in terms of possibilities.

We had the opportunity to speak with one of the heads of marketing for Microsoft who had come expressly from Seattle for this show. publish this exclusive interview soon , so stay tuned.



In conclusion, the presentation was very well, so we contacted the coveted Project Natal and saw what he is capable of opening up a world of possibilities limited only by the imagination of programmers but only one. I imagine that Microsoft's marketing boffins are what are currando despite remaining nearly a year for marketing, but the fact is that only technical demos submitted, you may never even get to see the light. We would have liked to see something more definitive, certainly something that we knew we would be able to have. Many good wishes in a world with an appalling competitiveness. We can only hope and dream.

http://beegamer.es/2010/04/asistimos...en-madrid.html


this is good news! so the rumor about the price changing from $50 might be true and they are going with the Natal that they showed @ E3 09 that could work with older games.

that picture was just asking to be PhotoShopped

[Staticneuron]

Months after the spectacular presentation at E3 last year

I am curious..... this sounds like this was taken before the revamped announcement that was at CES2010.

This event seemed to have happened this year recently so is this info about the sensor new or old?

[ONQ]

I am curious..... this sounds like this was taken before the revamped announcement that was at CES2010.

This event seemed to have happened this year recently so is this info about the sensor new or old?

this event was this week!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ismPw0UYOE"]YouTube- Model Martina Klein playing with XBox Project Natal demo in Madrid Event[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v0jo1glDOo"]YouTube- Showroom Project Natal. Entrevista Marta Villarroya.[/ame]

[Staticneuron]

this event was this week!

I understood that this event was recent ( my last sentance) What I was asking is that that information about the chip old info or was this confirmed by the rep. It didn't seem to be in quotations so it seems odd for them to have it..... remove it..... only to add it again.

[ONQ]

I understood that this event was recent ( my last sentance) What I was asking is that that information about the chip old info or was this confirmed by the rep. It didn't seem to be in quotations so it seems odd for them to have it..... remove it..... only to add it again.

I think what they removed was PrimeSense's SOC chip.

[Staticneuron]

I think what they removed was PrimeSense's SOC chip.

Now that confuses me even more. Didn't primesense say their hardware is in natal in march of this year?

http://www.primesense.com/?catid={135CE13B-1861-4F66-BEA4-456CF1CB90B3}

“PrimeSense’s technology enables a paradigm shift in the way people interact with consumer electronic devices. The engagement with Xbox 360 establishes PrimeSense’s position as a leading supplier of 3D-sensing technology,” said Inon Beracha, chief executive officer, PrimeSense. “We are especially honored to have a partner like Microsoft who shares our vision for bringing innovative and engaging natural experiences to consumers.”
“Xbox 360 Hardware Engineering teams developed the ‘Project Natal’ sensor based on the PrimeSensor™ reference design to support the special requirements of ‘Project Natal,’” said Aviad Maizels, president and founder, PrimeSense.

Oh... maybe this means something proprietary was created.

[maltrophstitan]

From what i've read around the net PrimeSense has a chip onboard natal to decode the IRlight depth of field on objects.
Other things besides the depth information can be run from the other chip and the xbox 360 cpu.

[ONQ]

Now that confuses me even more. Didn't primesense say their hardware is in natal in march of this year?

http://www.primesense.com/?catid={135CE13B-1861-4F66-BEA4-456CF1CB90B3}


Oh... maybe this means something proprietary was created.

From what i've read around the net PrimeSense has a chip onboard natal to decode the IRlight depth of field on objects.
Other things besides the depth information can be run from the other chip and the xbox 360 cpu.

no PrimeSense has a SOC chip in it's own Camera but that was taking out of Natal because MS want it to be cheaper and if they have to always pay PrimeSense for their chip MS wouldn't make much money off of this. so they are using the PrimeSense Tech but they are making their own chip.


http://www.psu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238327

PrimeSense's offering to potential partners consists of a reference design for the camera, which connects to a computer via USB 2.0, just like the Natal kit. The difference is that this reference design includes a dedicated SoC (System on Chip) which translates the information from the IR sensor into a depth map that is "registered" or matched on a per-pixel basis with the RGB image you get from the conventional RGB camera. The result is a 640x480 image where every single pixel has a depth component.

"If you look at it from the capturing side, the capturing hardware is based on an RGB CMOS sensor and an IR CMOS sensor and an IR source all connected to the PrimeSense IC or SoC which analyses the signals and generates a 3D RGBD signal," explains Adi Berenson.

"RGBD means depth plus image and colour, synchronised over space and over time. In addition we integrated the ability to capture audio, also synchronised. The output signal of the capturing hardware is really four channels of audio, and 3D RGBD. Everything in sync. Everything channelled to the host, ready to be processed. That's the capturing hardware."

The SoC also contains interfaces for the RGB camera, analogue-to-digital converters, plus the USB circuitry required to connect the camera to the PC. The chip also contains some flash RAM meaning that the device is firmware-upgradable.

This is backed up by a bespoke middleware called NITE that is capable of constructing human skeletal data from the image, and thus tracking human motion. Although it is similar to the Natal tech demos we've seen where the system is capable of tracking individual human skeletons, the implementations are radically different. PrimeSense's involvement begins with the camera and ends with the creation of the depth-map for the RGB image.

In terms of the spec of the reference camera, the crucial nuts and bolts data can be found in the table below. You can expect Natal to be very close to this, though we expect that some of the specs here are best case scenarios - Natal is confirmed at 30FPS for scanning, so the 60FPS spec here probably relates to a lower resolution scan that Microsoft doesn't use... similar to that 1600x1200 RGB image size. That said, in our original piece on the system, Kudo Tsunoda did talk about multiple resolutions...

Property Specification
Field of View (Horizontal, Vertical, Diagonal) 58° H, 45° V, 70° D
Depth image size VGA (640x480)
Spatial x/y resolution (at 2m distance from sensor) 3mm
Depth z resolution (at 2m distance from sensor) 1cm
Maximum image throughput (frame-rate) 60FPS
Operation range 0.8m to 3.5m
Colour image size UXGA (1600x1200)
Audio: built-in microphones Two
Audio: digital inputs Four
Data interface/power supply USB 2.0
Power consumption 2.25W
Dimensions 14cm x 3.5cm x 5cm
Operating environment Indoors, all lighting conditions
Operating temperature 0°C - 40°C

The fact that the NITE middleware isn't part of Natal demonstrates that some of the really crazy stuff we've seen with it, particularly in how it maintains its multi-point skeletons even when limbs disappear outside of the field of view, is all Microsoft hoodoo.

"Project Natal: the magic is totally Microsoft," says Beracha in admiration. "What they did to the performance, to the robustness of the solution... we have to salute them."

"Being the biggest software company in the world, they did a phenomenal job on the software," adds Berenson. "It's totally their solution."

One interesting element that came up during our discussions is that while it's certain that PrimeSense tech is within Natal, the precise implementation of it remains unknown. Its reference camera does look uncannily similar to the Microsoft concept we've seen to date though.

"We cannot comment on what Natal is doing with the technology," warns Inon Beracha. "We changed a lot to fit their requirements."

Perhaps he is referring to the removal of the SoC within the camera in order to lower costs on Natal production. This has now been repurposed into a software solution within the Xbox 360's Xenon CPU. Estimates of 10 to 15 per cent of total system power have been mooted for handling the 50MB motion control libraries, while other, more pessimistic sources have indicated that an entire core (or at least one hardware thread) of the triple-core system is reserved purely for Natal

?

[maltrophstitan]

The colored text doesn't make sense.

you have
In a reference design
... a dedicated SoC (System on Chip) which translates the information from the IR sensor into a depth map..

Natal
PrimeSense's involvement begins with the camera and ends with the creation of the depth-map for the RGB image.

With Natal PrimeSense creates the depth-map for the RGB image. They don't say if thats done on the 360s CPU or on a PrimeSense chip on Natal but thats what it sounds like, is that PrimeSenses whole role in Natal is to create the depth-map which if done on natal has to be done on the PrimeSensor.

what is stated is that the 360s CPU "maintains the multi-point skeletons even when limbs disappear outside of the field of view"

[ONQ]

The colored text doesn't make sense.

you have
In a reference design
... a dedicated SoC (System on Chip) which translates the information from the IR sensor into a depth map..

Natal
PrimeSense's involvement begins with the camera and ends with the creation of the depth-map for the RGB image.

With Natal PrimeSense creates the depth-map for the RGB image. They don't say if thats done on the 360s CPU or on a PrimeSense chip on Natal

what is stated is that the 360s CPU "maintains the multi-point skeletons even when limbs disappear outside of the field of view"

it says that Natal uses PrimeSense tech but the SOC is not in Natal.

[maltrophstitan]

it says that Natal uses PrimeSense tech but the SOC is not in Natal.

No Natal uses a lot of different software to do what is does all the SOC does is create a depth-map from the IR light from there MS uses its software to overlay skeletal information and other features to get what you see on screen.

[Staticneuron]

Thanks, I understand what is going on now.

[maltrophstitan]

heres an article it might even be the same one you referenced PrimeSense: Beyond Natal

"all of the video capture and depth perception hardware within Natal comes from them, and only from them.[PrimeSense]"

"PrimeSense isn't just the provider of the 3D technology in Project Natal... it's the sole provider," says Maizels proudly. "Project Natal is much more than a 3D sensing device, but PrimeSense is the only company responsible for the 3D."

it's interesting to note that they see the utilisation of what they call the "PrimeSensor" just a small part of the entirety of the package.

"RGBD means depth plus image and colour, synchronised over space and over time. In addition we integrated the ability to capture audio, also synchronised. The output signal of the capturing hardware is really four channels of audio, and 3D RGBD. Everything in sync. Everything channelled to the host, ready to be processed. That's the capturing hardware."

[maltrophstitan]

it says that Natal uses PrimeSense tech but the SOC is not in Natal.

PrimeSense specifically mentions using its PrimeSensor in Natal, thats the actual hardware chip that syncs all the date thats sent off to the 360 so it can integrate MS own custom software that creates the skeletal and joint movements for the avatar on screen

[Galvanise_]

The processor talked about in this article is the Primesense chip. The Primesense chip does not process any data to do with the skeletal system.

This is what happens:

IR camera gets depth data.
Primesense chip compiles all depth data.

360 CPU compiles and processes the skeletal data.

Both sets of data are combined and fed through the 360 to get the desired effect.

Roughly 10-15% of the 360's CPU is used in this process.

P.S whoever posted this on N4G clearly doesn't know the rules. Forum posts are not allowed as news on that website. The news is also false.

Yes, Natal does have its own Processor. The Primesense chip. WE ALREADY KNOW THAT. There were originally two processors in the original Natal. One has been removed and its jobs are now done on the 360 CPU.

[ONQ]

The processor talked about in this article is the Primesense chip. The Primesense chip does not process any data to do with the skeletal system.

This is what happens:

IR camera gets depth data.
Primesense chip compiles all depth data.

360 CPU compiles and processes the skeletal data.

Both sets of data are combined and fed through the 360 to get the desired effect.

Roughly 10-15% of the 360's CPU is used in this process.

P.S whoever posted this on N4G clearly doesn't know the rules. Forum posts are not allowed as news on that website. The news is also false.

Yes, Natal does have its own Processor. The Primesense chip. WE ALREADY KNOW THAT. There were originally two processors in the original Natal. One has been removed and its jobs are now done on the 360 CPU.

I posted this and I know the rules! I posted this as the alternative link the link to the website is there also.

[maltrophstitan]

The processor talked about in this article is the Primesense chip. The Primesense chip does not process any data to do with the skeletal system.

This is what happens:

IR camera gets depth data.
Primesense chip compiles all depth data.

360 CPU compiles and processes the skeletal data.

Both sets of data are combined and fed through the 360 to get the desired effect.

Roughly 10-15% of the 360's CPU is used in this process.

P.S whoever posted this on N4G clearly doesn't know the rules. Forum posts are not allowed as news on that website. The news is also false.

Yes, Natal does have its own Processor. The Primesense chip. WE ALREADY KNOW THAT. There were originally two processors in the original Natal. One has been removed and its jobs are now done on the 360 CPU.

I thought everyone thought that they took the primesensor chip out and primesense supplied the software tech and had the 360 sync all the depth map data.

[ONQ]

there has been more reports that they have the processor in Natal now.

coming from the show yesterday.

[arfi-gorgona-O]

10-15 % of the total CPU power is quite a lot though.....

[Dasimpse]

but is that still the case with what onq is sayin?

[Shrinnan]

10-15 % of the total CPU power is quite a lot though.....

If the processor is back in then the 360's CPU will no longer have to use any of its power for Natal.

[ONQ]

but is that still the case with what onq is sayin?

I don't know the chip that they are saying is in there now could be a cheaper chip that's just going to help out with the 360's CPU work load.

[Sufi]

PrimeSense's SOC chip

huh?

Didn't primesense say their hardware is in natal in march of this year?

uhhh

IR sensor into a depth map that is "registered" or matched on a per-pixel basis with the RGB image you get from the conventional RGB camera. The result is a 640x480 image where every single pixel has a depth component.

T_T

Natal Project is the first worldwide sensor that uses a 3D video camera

eh?

"We cannot comment on what Natal is doing with the technology," warns Inon Beracha. "We changed a lot to fit their requirements."

what?

IR camera gets depth data.
Primesense chip compiles all depth data. 360 CPU compiles and processes the skeletal data. Both sets of data are combined and fed through the 360 to get the desired effect.

...
This is like too much information that I don't understand.

[ONQ]

huh?uhhh[/COLOR]T_Teh?[/COLOR][/COLOR]what?...
This is like too much information that I don't understand.

lol yeah it's crazy because @ 1 point thay are talking about the PrimeSense camera with the SOC then they are talking about Natal.

[maltrophstitan]

lol yeah it's crazy because @ 1 point thay are talking about the PrimeSense camera with the SOC then they are talking about Natal.

the SOC is the Primesensor that is the hardware chip used in natal