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  1. #26
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Bioware shouldn't really bash others about making a same game again and again.
    They have now made 5 games with pretty ideantical settings.

    Following does spoil all Bioware games sience KotOR.

    Rant mode on\\
    Recepice for bioware game.
    1. All decisions must be made trough a pre-defined conversions and everything else is just a simple path between conversations.
    2. World and surrounding doesn't really matter and only serve as a simple set for the play.
    3. Fighting is just a mean to keep player 'entertained' between conversations and do not affect the game.
    4. Moral choices are presented only during conversations and even then color coded and in same location on talkwheel thingy, always.
    5. Players party is the same as it was in the previous game. (and ones before.)
    6. Story must follow the following path.

    - Proloque - Here hero/heroine faces mortal peril due to a attack from unknown source. (ship, hometown, family, mage tower under attack.)
    - Collecting a party and some misc sub-missions to collect good/bad points.
    - Choose your mate, final battle is getting near so you need to make your choice and find nearest bed, tent or floor for mating rituals.
    - Final attack that kills some of the party members and you get the good/bad and ugly moral choice in the end.
    \\ Rant mode off

    I have enjoyed their games, but really this is getting stale.
    I would love to see RPG with dynamic setting where each encounter could hold a nice twists, like a goblin who has happened to pick a wand of wonders..
    Last edited by jlippone; 06-06-2010 at 20:41. Reason: Typos.

  2. #27
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by n@ruto-kun View Post
    Post of the day.

    WRPG is a different breed than JRPG. JRPG is story-driven, it's like reading a novel but you play it. And believe it or not, we like it that way. End of story.
    Which is the critical difference - with JRPG's you are playing a novel, with WRPG's you are writing the novel as you play. Which probably goes someway to explaining why JRPG's have scored lower than WRPG's on average this generation. Off the top of my head I can only think of one 90%+ JRPG: Demons' Souls; while there are bucket loads of 90%+ WRPG's: Oblivion, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 2. Three of which were developed by Bioware; the most 90%+ titles of any developer this gen.

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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Jo-san View Post
    Which is the critical difference - with JRPG's you are playing a novel, with WRPG's you are writing the novel as you play. Which probably goes someway to explaining why JRPG's have scored lower than WRPG's on average this generation. Off the top of my head I can only think of one 90%+ JRPG: Demons' Souls; while there are bucket loads of 90%+ WRPG's: Oblivion, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 2. Three of which were developed by Bioware; the most 90%+ titles of any developer this gen.
    Are you saying that games that are incapable of telling their own story are somehow superior? If I wanted to write a novel, I'd write a novel and I wouldn't need to choose from pre-written sentences in order to do that.

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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_the_Cat View Post
    Are you saying that games that are incapable of telling their own story are somehow superior? If I wanted to write a novel, I'd write a novel and I wouldn't need to choose from pre-written sentences in order to do that.
    There are limits to how much freedom can be given (generally good, neutral, bad, and alternative actions) because of the time it would take to make said game. Yet generally the level of writing has been far superior in WRPG's than in JRPG's which this generation have tended to be contrived and stale.

    It thus comes as no suprise that there are several 90%+ WRPG's, but one such scoring JRPG.

  5. #30
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    with WRPG's you are writing the novel as you play
    Hardly, more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choose_Your_Own_Adventure

    WRPGs have reviewed higher on metacritic because metacritic only uses western review sources, herpderp, I'd have a long day if I was to sit here listing every DS/PSP/PS3/Wii JRPG that scored over 90% in the east

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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by jlippone View Post
    Bioware shouldn't really bash others about making a same game again and again.
    They have now made 5 games with pretty ideantical settings.

    Following does spoil all Bioware games sience KotOR.

    Rant mode on\\
    Recepice for bioware game.
    1. All decisions must be made trough a pre-defined conversions and everything else is just a simple path between conversations.
    2. World and surrounding doesn't really matter and only serve as a simple set for the play.
    3. Fighting is just a mean to keep player 'entertained' between conversations and do not affect the game.
    4. Moral choices are presented only during conversations and even then color coded and in same location on talkwheel thingy, always.
    5. Players party is the same as it was in the previous game. (and ones before.)
    6. Story must follow the following path.

    - Proloque - Here hero/heroine faces mortal peril due to a attack from unknown source. (ship, hometown, family, mage tower under attack.)
    - Collecting a party and some misc sub-missions to collect good/bad points.
    - Choose your mate, final battle is getting near so you need to make your choice and find nearest bed, tent or floor for mating rituals.
    - Final attack that kills some of the party members and you get the good/bad and ugly moral choice in the end.
    \\ Rant mode off

    I have enjoyed their games, but really this is getting stale.
    I would love to see RPG with dynamic setting where each encounter could hold a nice twists, like a goblin who has happened to pick a wand of wonders..
    Lol. Exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sieghardt View Post
    Hardly, more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choose_Your_Own_Adventure

    WRPGs have reviewed higher on metacritic because metacritic only uses western review sources, herpderp, I'd have a long day if I was to sit here listing every DS/PSP/PS3/Wii JRPG that scored over 90% in the east
    Yup, should be very obvious.

  7. #32
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sieghardt View Post
    Hardly, more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choose_Your_Own_Adventure

    WRPGs have reviewed higher on metacritic because metacritic only uses western review sources, herpderp, I'd have a long day if I was to sit here listing every DS/PSP/PS3/Wii JRPG that scored over 90% in the east
    You might have a point if the eastern-orientated gaming world was a 'forgotten' majority. It is not; Japan has been surpassed by the UK and the western-orientated gaming market (US, UK, Europe, and Australasia) forms the majority in gaming sales and tastes. Less than 25% of the combined sales of the Wii, 360 and PS3 are outside English-speaking/European countries. Metacritic doesn't factor in every review known the man but it accounts for the majority.

    It's not even that there is some sort of western-bias as there have been countless JRPG's that have scored well in previous gens. Quite simply Japanese developers are under-performing this gen; FFXIII being the classic example compared to how FFXII fared last gen.

  8. #33
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    jlippone wins again. Bioware really have been putting out the same game with a different skin since KotOR. That's not to say I don't enjoy them, but they can't talk about lack of variety in design.

  9. #34
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_the_Cat View Post
    Ixion, you may like FFXII more than FFXIII, but FFXII still pissed off an awful lot of fans. Myself and a all of my friends who play Final Fantasy games, consider the game to be one of the lowest points in the series' history, and that's including FFX-2. This, of course, happens with Bioware games as well, Mass Effect 2 pissed off a lot of Mass Effect fans, but since these games don't have anywhere near as many fans as the Final Fantasy series, the fan outrage will always be considerably smaller.
    I know it was a flawed game and I know many didn't enjoy it, but I'm just discussing its general structure. If further evolved and done better, then I think it would help JRPGs, or at least the series, regain popularity whilst also providing what makes JRPGs unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_the_Cat View Post
    With Versus, and there is very little information about it right now, it sounds like SE is doing exactly what Bioware is speaking out against in this quote. They are going back to the classical FF formula, with updated graphics. Of course, this may not be true, it is simply what the game seems to be like from what was said about it. But if so, its sales performance versus those of the more innovative FFXIII, will prove or disprove Bioware's quote.
    But the difference with Versus is that it's supposedly going to provide a combination of two different types of games to create something new. The open world/town-filled world of classic installments will be combined with the seamless, flamboyant battles of games like Devil May Cry and Kingdom Hearts. And I think this is a formula which achieves a similar goal to what I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Staticneuron View Post
    The didn't omit things.... they crafted a focus. There is a difference between omitting something and purposely designing something. The game was designed to be fast paced and more action like in almost every respect. From the level caps, to the linear paths, the "in your face" story, the ability to repeat previous actions easily, down to the battle deciding paradigm shifts this game was design around a very specific focus.
    Yeah, that's what I meant by the "overall different experience." But I'm still sticking to what I've been saying. This "fast-paced focus" did not augment any of the remaining aspects or add any new aspects to further bolster the focus. If FFXIII is going to take out elements whilst not adding interactive action sequences or something to strengthen that type of experience, then that experience itself needed to be strengthened. But the battle-system is all they can show for that. But even that is negated somewhat since the battle-system is actually slower paced than previous battle systems. Plus the battles aren't seamless.

    Basically, the few remaining aspects that are "focused" on either needed to be stronger or more progressive than they were in FFXIII. The adventuring on the field is dated, the story is slow and not as deep as some of the previous installments, and the battle-system has elements that are counterproductive to the goal of the experience.

    Ultimately, FFXIII is a game that was supposed to be fast-paced, but wasn't. And the result is something that didn't quite work.

  10. #35
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    It's sad how so many developers these days get a huge head because they put out a few good games. Valve whether they are a PC god or not will let you know they believe they are. You got the Crytek developers talking smack about everyone because they put out a graphical beast in Crysis. Now you've got BioWare pretty much saying "We've conquered the RPG genre, everything else is rubbish".

    I mean, these developers really make me appreciate developers such as Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Rockstar, etc that much more. What happened to putting out a good game gracefully?


  11. #36
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Jo-san View Post
    Less than 25% of the combined sales of the Wii, 360 and PS3 are outside English-speaking/European countries. Metacritic doesn't factor in every review known the man but it accounts for the majority.
    #1 If number of sales defines a good game for you then by all means go play carnival games.
    #2 hurr lets leave out DS and PSP because it doesnt support your side of the argument, no bias there nosiree
    #3 the only change this gen is "games journalism". Previously games were reviewed by a select number of critics, where sites like RPGamer and RPGfan carried greater weight. Now metacritic is an aggregate of a bunch of kids blogs
    #4 Even if we take all that you have said and accept it, 25% of the reviews should be japanese. 0% are, if you cant call that a bias then you're beyond help

  12. #37
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    Yeah, that's what I meant by the "overall different experience." But I'm still sticking to what I've been saying. This "fast-paced focus" did not augment any of the remaining aspects or add any new aspects to further bolster the focus. If FFXIII is going to take out elements whilst not adding interactive action sequences or something to strengthen that type of experience, then that experience itself needed to be strengthened. But the battle-system is all they can show for that. But even that is negated somewhat since the battle-system is actually slower paced than previous battle systems. Plus the battles aren't seamless.

    Basically, the few remaining aspects that are "focused" on either needed to be stronger or more progressive than they were in FFXIII. The adventuring on the field is dated, the story is slow and not as deep as some of the previous installments, and the battle-system has elements that are counterproductive to the goal of the experience.

    Ultimately, FFXIII is a game that was supposed to be fast-paced, but wasn't. And the result is something that didn't quite work.
    Well, in respect to what bioware has said, the game is one of many that proves him wrong. The final fantasy's have always been changing. Same thing with the tales series and many other series that have more than one entry. The only JRPG that you can consider is ridgid and unchanging for the most part is Dragonquest.

    The way FFXIII was designed simply deviated from the old school methodologies. I would like to say that most JRPG's released in after the year 2000 changes things up. FFXIII was different, whether or not you like the game is irrelevant, the game proves bioware theories wrong. Let us talk about JRPG elements that are normally constant.


    I can go on but I am tired of talking about the game. Despite me not playing many of the games this gen, the few I did put my hands on breaks with convention. Maybe this guy is talking about JRPG's that have been on the 360 mainly. I didn't catch most of them except for some demos and I actually own lost odyssey.
    LO is painfully retro at times but at the same token does things that bucks the trend. Such as the immortal characters and how they actually learn/use abilities.

  13. #38
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Why can't I see the spoilers?
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    I've noticed they haven't been working since the upgrade. Wondering if their like ps3trophies.org forums where you have to have a unique code for each spoiler. Like spoiler=01234 or something.
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Ok Bioware, don't you think it's time to give the JRPG bashing a rest? It IS getting a tad old. And like Sieg pointed out, they made a JRPG style Sonic RPG.
    Proud FFXI Player, Fenrir server.




  16. #41
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    [QUOTE=lordAlucard;So whats the problem with JRPGs? have Capcom and Square gone insane[/QUOTE]

    No,those particular two just sold their souls and went multi-plat
    I had no intentions of becoming a leader. It is as a warrior how I shall be remembered, but these are hardly numbers worth dying for.
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sieghardt View Post
    #1 If number of sales defines a good game for you then by all means go play carnival games.
    #2 hurr lets leave out DS and PSP because it doesnt support your side of the argument, no bias there nosiree
    #3 the only change this gen is "games journalism". Previously games were reviewed by a select number of critics, where sites like RPGamer and RPGfan carried greater weight. Now metacritic is an aggregate of a bunch of kids blogs
    #4 Even if we take all that you have said and accept it, 25% of the reviews should be japanese. 0% are, if you cant call that a bias then you're beyond help
    #1 - Reading comprehension and acknowledgment that JRPG's have failed to deliver this generation (while WRPG's have delivered) might not be two of your strong points - but if you re-read the passage you quoted me on, you would noticed that I was referring to the console base, and not the % of software titles sold by genre (do such figures even exist?).
    #2 - Good games and portable consoles is an oxymoron; including them actually strengthens my argument because there are so few good titles, let alone any good RPG's. I think in the handheld console market (which is funnily enough still dominated by the western-market), there are like only nine titles across all genres' that have scored over 90%, of which one is an RPG (Chrono Trigger).
    #3 - You might have a point if metacritic didn't weight the average according the publication status, but it does.
    #4 - And I presume that these 25% of Japanese reviewers would somehow be showering excellent scores left right and centre to make up for their poor review performance in the rest of the gaming market; the same market that last gen was praising JRPG's?

    Stop making excuses for why JRPG developers have fallen flat this gen, because it is a wider reflection of the state of gaming affairs in Japan which is in terminal decline (blame demographics). Thinking otherwise just makes you sound bitter.

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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    #1: Your super cool ad hominem attacks aside, install base, sales, popularity, none of it has any bearing on whether a game is GOOD or not, there are great niche games there are terrible mainstream games, this is a fact.
    #2 lol defining a games quality by the system its on, what a joke, really underlines how great a grasp you have of what makes a good game.
    #3: A weighting system is even more biased, if you disagree that's ok, we can just weight my argument to be worth 1000 times yours and you shouldnt have a problem with that right?
    #4: Different regions are better qualified to review different games/genres, you wouldnt bother with japanese reviews of an american football/ice hockey game.

    Stop making excuses for why JRPG developers have fallen flat this gen, because it is a wider reflection of the state of gaming affairs in Japan which is in terminal decline (blame demographics). Thinking otherwise just makes you sound bitter.
    I guess that makes a hell of a lot of people bitter then as Valkyria Chronicles, Tales of Vesperia and Demons Souls have won a lot of awards. Ar Tonelico 2 won game of the year from several *gasp* western sites last year and I expect Ar tonelico 3 to do the same in the near future.

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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sieghardt View Post
    #1: Your super cool ad hominem attacks aside, install base, sales, popularity, none of it has any bearing on whether a game is GOOD or not, there are great niche games there are terrible mainstream games, this is a fact.
    #2 lol defining a games quality by the system its on, what a joke, really underlines how great a grasp you have of what makes a good game.
    #3: A weighting system is even more biased, if you disagree that's ok, we can just weight my argument to be worth 1000 times yours and you shouldnt have a problem with that right?
    #4: Different regions are better qualified to review different games/genres, you wouldnt bother with japanese reviews of an american football/ice hockey game.

    I guess that makes a hell of a lot of people bitter then as Valkyria Chronicles, Tales of Vesperia and Demons Souls have won a lot of awards. Ar Tonelico 2 won game of the year from several *gasp* western sites last year and I expect Ar tonelico 3 to do the same in the near future.
    #1 - I never insinuated that there was a link between install base and sales of titles so you might want to re-look at my post. As I pointed out - I didn't include the NDS + PSP because most of it is trash despite the massive install base of both portable consoles.
    #2 - So would you say that there are higher quality titles on the PSP than on the PS3? I suspect no; quite simply portable gaming is full of junk. Ironic that you criticise me for what constitutes a good game when you're the one assuming that 75% of the home console market reviewers have got it wrong
    #3 - Comical - you don't do kid's parties do you; because you cricitise Metacritic for giving importance to 'kiddy blogs' (what on earth are they by the way - not RPGamer or RPG fan by any chance?), and proceed to further criticise Metacritic when informed that they actually give less importance to such review sources over mainstream publications. Double standards come to mind! Do you do stand up comedy as well?
    #4 - What a load of tosh. Great games overcome barriers, which negates your point on American Football and Ice Hockey - because there hasn't been a great game for such sports.

    You should note that I referred to Demons Souls earlier as that clearly is head and shoulders above any other JRPG - and the western media rated it as such. The others - less so.

    Indeed Ar Tonelico 2 won 2009 game of the year from the likes of IGN - beating the likes of Uncharted Twoooooo.....ah yes my mistake, Ar Tonelico 2 only released on the PS2. Perhaps their PS3 dev kit got lost in the post, who knows but IGN gave this GoTY title an impressive 84%, even RPG Fan and RPGamer gave it a magestic 81% and mouth-watering 80% respectively.

    Now I'm not sure whether your're trying to commit an electronic form of seppuku, but I have to admit - you couldn't have illustrated my point better of the decline of the JRPG - than a game that won GoTY last year on a 6th gen 10yr old console. What next a JRPG with a Hollywood price-tag storyline...on a calculator; quite literally a number cruncher!
    Last edited by Jo-san; 06-08-2010 at 14:02.

  20. #45
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Jo-san View Post
    There are limits to how much freedom can be given (generally good, neutral, bad, and alternative actions) because of the time it would take to make said game. Yet generally the level of writing has been far superior in WRPG's than in JRPG's which this generation have tended to be contrived and stale.

    It thus comes as no suprise that there are several 90%+ WRPG's, but one such scoring JRPG.
    Dear God. How could our schools have failed us so, that one among us would venture to call what is vomited onto the screen by most WRPGs "writing", and then have the poor fortune of going on to remark that its better than its Japanese counterparts?

    I can only assume that having come to this conclusion, you don't know what good writing is. Get out of your basement and go read some Orson Scott Card or Isaac Asimov or T. S. Elliot or Robert Frost or Edgar Allen Poe or ANYTHING to teach you what good writing is, because apparently you are both ignorant of what makes writing good, and ignorant of the fact that you're ignorant.

    EDIT:

    As a side note, I find it hilarious that anyone actually believes that giving you two options, one of which is "Mother Theresa" and another which is "Hitler's Worst Day" constitutes "writing" the story yourself.

    WRPGs are so popular because American's are lazy consumers of entertainment, spoken as an American. Most Americans don't want to be too involved or think too much when they entertain themselves, and WRPGs are by far the least engaging and imaginative bunch of the genre. They're popular because they're easy to follow, simplistic, childish and quaint. And sadly, most people want just that: why play something great when you can play something simple?
    Last edited by JordanL; 06-10-2010 at 11:21.

  21. #46
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by JordanL View Post
    Dear God. How could our schools have failed us so, that one among us would venture to call what is vomited onto the screen by most WRPGs "writing", and then have the poor fortune of going on to remark that its better than its Japanese counterparts?

    I can only assume that having come to this conclusion, you don't know what good writing is. Get out of your basement and go read some Orson Scott Card or Isaac Asimov or T. S. Elliot or Robert Frost or Edgar Allen Poe or ANYTHING to teach you what good writing is, because apparently you are both ignorant of what makes writing good, and ignorant of the fact that you're ignorant.

    EDIT:

    As a side note, I find it hilarious that anyone actually believes that giving you two options, one of which is "Mother Theresa" and another which is "Hitler's Worst Day" constitutes "writing" the story yourself.

    WRPGs are so popular because American's are lazy consumers of entertainment, spoken as an American. Most Americans don't want to be too involved or think too much when they entertain themselves, and WRPGs are by far the least engaging and imaginative bunch of the genre. They're popular because they're easy to follow, simplistic, childish and quaint. And sadly, most people want just that: why play something great when you can play something simple?
    LOL.

    It is true. Normally a good story is a piece of fiction that narrates a chain of related events. It seems recently that gamers seem to think minigames or things unrelated to overall sotry arc also constitute as story.

    Better yet, the narrative style of Half life 2. I was playing episode one the other day, and to open a locked door I had to solve a puzzle that required crawling through vents, dodging explosive traps, scaling an elevator, just for the chance of switching a breaker panel on. I would love to say it was interesting, but it was like the 4th or 5th time during playing the game that something that elaborate was needed to do a mundane task. Not only should this stick out to gamers, but in written form it would be the most boring story you ever read. Many WRPG's suffer from this bout of repetition as well because things need to be belabored for gamers to enjoy them. Also the story must be flexible enough to allow for a finicky change in nature any gamer might want to partake in.

    EDIT: not to mention I had a rocket launcher on me that could blow a gigantic hole in the wall.
    Last edited by Staticneuron; 06-10-2010 at 12:17. Reason: Further clarrifaction

  22. #47
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by JordanL View Post
    Dear God. How could our schools have failed us so, that one among us would venture to call what is vomited onto the screen by most WRPGs "writing", and then have the poor fortune of going on to remark that its better than its Japanese counterparts?

    I can only assume that having come to this conclusion, you don't know what good writing is. Get out of your basement and go read some Orson Scott Card or Isaac Asimov or T. S. Elliot or Robert Frost or Edgar Allen Poe or ANYTHING to teach you what good writing is, because apparently you are both ignorant of what makes writing good, and ignorant of the fact that you're ignorant.

    EDIT:

    As a side note, I find it hilarious that anyone actually believes that giving you two options, one of which is "Mother Theresa" and another which is "Hitler's Worst Day" constitutes "writing" the story yourself.

    WRPGs are so popular because American's are lazy consumers of entertainment, spoken as an American. Most Americans don't want to be too involved or think too much when they entertain themselves, and WRPGs are by far the least engaging and imaginative bunch of the genre. They're popular because they're easy to follow, simplistic, childish and quaint. And sadly, most people want just that: why play something great when you can play something simple?
    I am perplexed - are you comparing JRPG writing to some of the most celebrated writers? Don't get me wrong - writing in games is still hit and miss (and mostly the later), but JRPG writing has definately gone downhill and has subsequently been eclipsed by WRPG's.

    I also think you appear to be confusing the convuleted messes created by many a Japanese deverloper and assuming that because you or someone else can't understand it, that it is automatically intelligent/superior. Tried fishing in Nier lately?

    You also contradict yourself; if Americans are lazy and don't want to be involved in a game, or think, then how does that fit in with the general approach taken by WRPG's where decisions decide outcomes and alter the gameplay going forward? Surely decision-making situations would go against your idea of why WRPG's would be popular amongst Americans?


  23. #48
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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Jo-san View Post
    I am perplexed - are you comparing JRPG writing to some of the most celebrated writers? Don't get me wrong - writing in games is still hit and miss (and mostly the later), but JRPG writing has definately gone downhill and has subsequently been eclipsed by WRPG's.
    You think so? In terms of telling a story and progression JRPG's are still superior. With the exception of Mass effect 2, they are still pretty skeletal just to accomodate changes in "alignment" and don't get me wrong, I love WRPG's as well, but the games focus is entirely different.

    I think maybe people are being to general. Let me see if I can be more specific.

    Stories that are considered decent normally have several elements that they must have and expound on such as Theme, Plot, Structure, Characters, setting, and tone.

    Normally there are pretty ridged concepts that go along with these when referring to written concepts but considering the delivery of video games things can be played with and rules can be changed.

    Now both good WRPG and good JRPG have these elements BUT because of the nature of WRPG's very few of them have decent story structure.

    Story structure: Exposition (start), rising section, climax (middle), falling section then resolution (end).

    JRPGS, mainly keep these in order, it fits they style of gameplay. Because WRPGS' are normally based around a user driven experience (sorta like a chose your own adventure) the writers in these games normally tend to design around self contained little narratives that normally flesh out the setting of the overall story but never actually contributes to the plot or structure. For most WRPG's there is no rising sections, climax, or falling sections. Normally there is a beginning and an end. The self contained episodes are given such value that the importance leveled on them overrules some climaxes.

    Now I will say that Bioware does a really good job of structure for the Mass Effect series. They do that by providing a stronger structure to the story skeleton so despite giving you the illusion of freedom, you cannot escape their heavy plot points. It is on of the WRPG' that can be let of the hook but games like Fallout 3, despite being one of my favorite games this gen,.... really didn't have a climax.

    I went from reading books to playing JRPG's because of the stories so it was very noticeable to see what was lacking when i played wrpg's.
    Last edited by Staticneuron; 06-10-2010 at 15:21. Reason: grammer and spelling

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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Staticneuron View Post
    Well, in respect to what bioware has said, the game is one of many that proves him wrong. The final fantasy's have always been changing. Same thing with the tales series and many other series that have more than one entry. The only JRPG that you can consider is ridgid and unchanging for the most part is Dragonquest.

    The way FFXIII was designed simply deviated from the old school methodologies. I would like to say that most JRPG's released in after the year 2000 changes things up. FFXIII was different, whether or not you like the game is irrelevant, the game proves bioware theories wrong. Let us talk about JRPG elements that are normally constant.


    I can go on but I am tired of talking about the game. Despite me not playing many of the games this gen, the few I did put my hands on breaks with convention. Maybe this guy is talking about JRPG's that have been on the 360 mainly. I didn't catch most of them except for some demos and I actually own lost odyssey.

    LO is painfully retro at times but at the same token does things that bucks the trend. Such as the immortal characters and how they actually learn/use abilities.
    Now that the spoilers are working, I guess I should reply to this post now. Personally, I think the latter three points are weaknesses, rather than actual changes. The battle-system, specifically the paradigm-system, is really the only redeeming feature from their "focus" IMO. But granted, that's somewhat subjective. However, even if one did see those features as positives, I don't think their fundamental enough or significant enough to be in the same discussion with the changes brought by certain WRPGs. Especially since most of the changes, like I said, are simply new limitations that force the player to do something else. Some people on here think that made for a somewhat fresh experience for this one game, but I think most of you will agree with me when I say that FFXIII will not and should not influence the future of JRPGs.

    My basic point here is that FFXIII is "change" from limitation and omission, rather than creation. It didn't give us anything new except for a more refined version of the job-switching from FFX-2.

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    Re: Bioware takes swing at JRPGs...again

    Quote Originally Posted by Jo-san View Post
    You also contradict yourself; if Americans are lazy and don't want to be involved in a game, or think, then how does that fit in with the general approach taken by WRPG's where decisions decide outcomes and alter the gameplay going forward? Surely decision-making situations would go against your idea of why WRPG's would be popular amongst Americans?
    Wow. Really? I don't even know where to start with this.

    Are you honestly, really, taking the position that moral choice systems make a game complex? When the two choices are "spawn of satan" and "the mesiah"?

    Is that really what you're saying?

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