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  1. #2801
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    Last edited by Vulgotha; 10-19-2012 at 16:11.


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    @ Substance

    Our founding fathers don't need to "live in this time" to realize that the United States government has become a monstrous aberration they never intended to spawn. They tried to enact measures that would prevent the very government we now have. This is hardly an adequate excuse, this a pathetic argument.

    And the entire point of the military is to defend the US Citizenry and uphold the constitution of the United States. Not destroy its intent and smear due process all across the Yemen country side with US blood. Not to spy on US citizens without wiretaps and harvest their data (like the NSA and FBI are doing), not indefinitely detain citizens or those "suspected of terrorist activities" with no probable cause\warrant to do so. The enemy has in fact become the US government.

    But naturally they'd never indict themselves, so I suppose as a carved wooden man you're fine with this and its resulting outcome.

    And you may not care what Bin Laden wanted (which makes me laugh at the irony) but you are very much an integral part to his plan. A success story if I ever saw one.

    You bet the majority of this country agrees with you? Pretending it did for a second- who cares? I could lecture you on the purpose of having constitution and frame of government rooted in solid values that cannot be swayed by the rabblings of mob rule and the reason why we forsook a democracy in the first place for a representative\constitutional republic. I suspect however you would reply in a similar manner as you did in regards to Bin Laden.

    This is complete insanity.

    Read Thoreau, Paine, and Locke.. I implore you. See for yourself what they had to say about the tyrannies of government and then look at our society now. We are not free, we are captive. We have the illusions of choice and are shackled to the federal government agenda.

    Can you imagine what Jefferson would do if he realized all the hoops he would have to go through just to add some extensions to Monticello?

    The government has far greater claim on our property and earnings then we do. Is this just? Is this freedom? Liberty? Or is this the actions of petty tyrants who abuse us with a clear conscience, for their labors are meant for "our own good"?

    Why even have a constitution? Clearly we who live in the present know best, right? What could history possibly have to teach us.


    P.S. For the record? We created many of the very same men who now seek our destruction and hate us. We ruined Iran. We supplied Iraq with chemical weapons (with which to try and wipe out Iran). We armed the Muhjadeen to halt the Soviet advance, and then proceeded to let those weapons and training be used against us.
    I really don't live my life worrying about what our country is supposed to be like. I just take it day by day and enjoy the freedoms that we have just like any other normal person. As far as bin laden or any al qaeda member, i really don't care what happens to them. Call me part of his plan or whatever. He got what he deserved. No one will change the way i feel about that. IMO he deserved much worse.

    I realize that we don't live in a perfect world or have a perfect government, but I don't dwell on the things i can't change. I will tell you what i tell everyone else. If you think our country is destined to fail, or not what our "founding fathers" wanted, then why don't you leave? It's still a free country last time i checked. I chose to put my energy into other things rather than worry about that. There are other things more important to me.



    I would rather live in this country with its flaws than anywhere else in the world.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 10-19-2012 at 02:19.

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    Last edited by Vulgotha; 10-19-2012 at 16:10.


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    Apathy is the worst thing

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    The only way the US will "stop policing the middle east" is if we (and the world in general) get off oil. By the way- this is really really bad for the middle east. As mentioned, they have practically nothing going for them apart from oil.

    They would probably collapse in short order. Riots, revolutions. At this point they'd be begging for western intervention, but hey we aren't supposed to police the world right? Besides there would be no real carrot to dangle in front of us.

    Which is why in large part they (along with the oil companies) have done their best to squash alternative energy funding. The long term future of the middle east is quite grim honestly. One way or another we are going to get off oil, and when that happens? I would not want to be there. Unless they really make some progress in the next few decades.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Because I love my country enough to oppose people who are corrupting it.
    I love my country too but i have learned to except it for what it is and i'm fine with that. Life will go on no matter if we dwell on the constitution or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I love my country too but i have learned to except it for what it is and i'm fine with that. Life will go on no matter if we dwell on the constitution or not.
    Apathy will be the end of the light in this world. I'd rather have you as a brother in this endeavor, then as someone on the sideline or an enemy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    You want to have a go with this? Fine.

    Let's say we totally yanked all of our military and financial aid (being "world police") from Middle East, East Pacific and Europe. Can you begin to imagine the sheer enormity of chaos and blood shed that would erupt without a suitable stabilizing force?
    How do you come to this conclusion? Example?

    America isn't a military and financial aid anymore, those were the 90s. We're not in Middle East to save someone, we were there for oil. We've killed more there than Sadam ever killed in his entire life. That's not to say that we should not have killed him, but the way it was done was not worth it.

    Frankly I could care less. I'd only really be concerned about how it impacts my nation- like who would fill that vacuum (it doesn't take more than 3 guesses to figure out who), what that would mean, and how the western economies would react to staggered\non existent oil flow.
    Do you really think any other nation has the resources or firepower to take over middle east?

    The world would burn, and us right along side it. I am a Libertarian in that I abhor the fact that we are the world police, but I'm not foolish enough to say that if we just pulled out tomorrow or even gradually over 5 years "the world would be a better place". We need a proper successor and nobody would step up to plate.
    Was Iraq or Afghanistan a threat to US before the invasion? Did they have a proper successor? I think we're more likely to get attacked now than we did before the wars.

    The middle east is a powder keg and is utterly barbaric. They are propped up by western demand for the only resource that even makes them marginally important apart from sand: oil. They have not had the time to "catch up" like Europe\West has, they basically became the focus of the west "over night" from a broader point of view.
    This goes against logic. If there is demand, supply will be provided. If there is no demand, the invisible hand makes people adapt to new resources to supply.

    Do you think Hawaiians are going to be wiped off the face of the earth if we stopped going there all of a sudden? I'm sure they can adapt. Not to mention, middle east gets (or used to get) a lot of tourist money and America isn't the only country that needs oil.

    Light a match. See what happens.
    Speculation.

    Russians and Chinese would step up no doubt about it. Wouldn't that all be glorious? How did the Russians treat the middle east the last time they were there- Oh right
    Afghanistan is not part of Middle East. And yes, they were there and we all know that they could not sustain. No occupier has ever definitely sustained on any land.

    Also, we shouldn't say that because we're not bullying them then someone else will. It doesn't make sense.

    Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, all of the middle east- it would all burn. You think people are "good"? That we are civilized? We will eat each other. Those with power will wield it and they will seize what they desire if there are no repercussions.
    Speculation. As mentioned earlier, no other country around the world has the resources and the will of the people to occupy another nation.

    And if they do, it wouldn't be nearly as damaging as the US has been, due to having more fire power.

    I could care less about the world, their governments are their own business. Part of American values Sufi, in my opinion "true values" of American culture is that we may not agree with what the world does- but we will let them do it so long as it does not hurt us. To me that is fair and just, as an American. What we have now is certainly not the case- but I think you would hate the lack of compassion my view espouses- and its results even more.
    Explain how anything happening around the world would be a threat to the US? For the sake of this argument, let's ignoring the nations that are right next to them, which likely should be more threatened than the US.

    Europe behaves like spoiled brats that rails against the US while accepting our military presence as they completely deflate their own, and drink up all the oil we safely provide them with our continued presence in the middle east.
    Greed. If they rally against the US, it's likely the people, it's generally the governments that sport greed in these cases.

    The middle east behave like a bunch of children, but this goes completely without saying. US involvement has not 'helped' the middle east much but I'd argue without us it wouldn't be much (if at all) better regardless. That's a lose lose situation.
    Give me an example of how they behave like children. Give me an example of how they wouldn't be better off without the US.

    And of course, the entire eastern pacific would be dominated by the Chinese. Again, this is glaringly obvious to the point of inducing retinal damage.
    Speculation. China doesn't have the resources. Other than their support for certain nations, just like any other super power around the world, they haven't shown any real interest in occupying another country.

    So articulate to me what your plan is, because I am all ears.
    We don't need a plan. Russia didn't ask anyone what else could've been done other than invading Afghanistan. You just don't do it. That's the plan. Not invade.

    Edit: No, it is entirely asymmetric warfare. See, we treat it like we always have- material warfare (ala WW2, Vietnam, Korean War, etc) and this is stupid. But we don't know much else and the military industrial complex is slow to change.
    No, there's been a lot of increase in technology when it comes to warfare. Fact of the matter is that war has been an economic tool since WWII specifically. Our enemy is never-ending, there's no end to this war. Even if it stops eventually, it can begin again without much reason. The foundation has already been laid out to make war possible without any practical reason.

    An insurgent can make a bomb with $30 worth of materials that inflicts tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage and takes human lives. This is the magic of modern high technology, this is the great equalizer. Further, they know that if they hide in population centers people will die, thus they can use it to anger the population. Even demand that they obtain vengeance upon brothers lost, lest they not be "true Muslims (this has and continues to happen in the middle east).
    The civilians weren't just killed due to fighting with the insurgents. There have been plenty of reports where civilians were killed without weapons (this also includes children). People found dead in their homes (Faluja). Hordes of people being killed with AC130s since they were "suspected"...I'm speaking about dozens of people at once.

    War is a messy thing Sufi. I would look at world history before coming down too hardly on the US for starters, and more specifically I'd look at the middle east's sordid past and violent crimes before condemning the west as hypocrites and monsters.

    We're all human. Far too human.
    Are you speaking about the dictators of the middle east?

    I am compassionate, but I recognize that a nation must exist to sustain its people. Not the people of others. I welcome and support charity, but not at the cost of self sufficiency for us and others. It's a delicate balancing act between getting and giving, Sufi.
    Do you think the US gives "charity" without an expected return?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Because I love my country enough to oppose people who are corrupting it.

    @ Sufi

    I also did not come to the aforementioned conclusions lightly. I would love nothing more then the US to withdraw and tend to our own affairs and for Europe, Middle East, and Asia to handle things themselves- and for it to turn out great.

    But I really don't see this being the case. We stepped up to help rebuild the ravaged world after WW2 and to stop the growth of communism. Now some friends of mine have argued that the Soviet Union had the moral high ground (An ideology, even a flawed one, is superior to no or half an ideology. His words.) I'm not here to debate that because I'm dubious to say the least.
    Capitalism is no better than communism in its truest form. There's no such thing as pure communism...in fact, there's no pure socialism either. It's a blend of all that is the most successful. China is not a pure communist country.

    The whole battle between ideology is politics and interests.

    Anyways, yes we did expand ourselves to combat this new threat and in the process we made alot of friends, we shared a mutual foe. We were the only ones able to step up and do something about it. We made alot of mistakes since then, and we have created alot of dependency.
    We were the only ones able to step up and do something about what? What dependency?

    It will take time to undo all of this.. Mess. I think it should be done and I am in agreement with you that it needs to be.

    What I'm trying to point out is that you're being kind of a hypocrite. You want your cake and eat it too. You want the world to enjoy the same luxuries\peace\freedoms of the US but apparently not pay the price. We are not here on this earth to better the world- this is the very same mentality that leads to us "policing" it.

    That is not and should not be how its done.
    Not sure how I'm a hypocrite.

    To summarize:

    1. Nations should be responsible for themselves.

    2. We should not be the world police (as in the US). I agree with this.

    3. Due to #2, this does not mean nations get to put little asterisks by this when they push for it. "We don't want you to police the world!" and then "Please give us money\aid and intervene when our people try to kill us! Can you give us some of those shiny new jets? Or maybe build a missile defense site to help keep Russia at bay?"
    Give me an example of where intervention was asked for. I'm not saying that it was never asked, I want to know what specific situation you're talking about so we can discuss it.

    As for the shiny new jets, I suppose you're talking about Pakistan? Again, that's an example of greed. They also asked for them after US said they would basically invade Pakistan if they did not let them use their air bases to occupy Afghanistan.

    4. The people who hate us the most for "policing" often benefit greatly from our policies (read: continued oil flow, stability).
    You know, there are a lot of countries around the world (all of them) that need oil. In fact, US may eventually sustain without oil due to advancements, whereas other countries will still need it. So I don't understand how the opportunity cost is worth it.

    5. It is everyone's fault. We have used our power irresponsibly (as well as responsibly).The world has rightfully condemned our wrong doings at times (often when it suits them) but also takes whatever benefits it can get.
    A very vague statement and while true, it doesn't answer the fact that the middle east is not benefiting from it.

    I feel for the 600,000 who died in Iraq, Sufi. I do. But it doesn't begin and end there. There's alot to take into consideration.. I'm divided on this issue. Ideologically I oppose us running around intervening across the world.. Yet at the same time I realize just yanking everything out could lead to catastrophe for everyone. Everyone loses.

    So for now.. Develop alternative energy sources and slowly pull military and financial aid.
    I'm sure you do feel for them but I think you want to think that everything the US is doing is for a good reason in the end and that's normal to think because you were likely born and/or raised here, it's called patriotism. I'm not against it, I'm a patriot myself but to the innocent people that live here and around the world. If you sit down and objectively think about everything, imagine yourself in their shoes, someone invading the US, you won't see yourself agreeing with it. Only if you keep objectivity and causality in mind.

    Now I think this discussion has gone off-topic enough, we can either open up another thread or you can PM me.

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    PM me and we can continue this.


    I think it's odd you choose to pick a fight with me of all people in this thread. I'm opposed to interventionism on principle and the only reason why I argue we should be doing something in the middle east (NOT what we are doing now!) is for the general good of not only us, but the rest of the world. As in economically.

    I would prefer we not be involved, that we let people delegate themselves. It isn't our problem.

    I propose we ween ourselves off of oil and become more self sufficient and reserved. I'm going to delete all my other posts on this matter between the two of us, because I think I got sucked into an argument here that really is not at all indicative of what I really think in relation to my principles.

    Merely what is pragmatic given the quagmire we already got ourselves stuck in (by not following the ideology I happen to agree with).
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 10-19-2012 at 16:10.


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  12. #2810
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    My freedoms haven't been taken away
    so i don't know what you're talking about. I still have the same if not even more freedom that i have since the day i was born. You can think what you want but don't expect everyone to have that "sky is falling mentality" about this country. Its not all great but not as bad as you make it out to be. I believe in the things i can see for myself, and what I see is a country who is going through some tough times but we will overcome it. We have before and we will again. We may always have complaints against things like government and politics, but that shouldn't be confused with not being proud to be American.
    Bold text mate... You have clearly lost that in the text i made and that is the fact you're freedom or freedoms are been taken away from you and loads have already

    you seem to not understand how your country works and what it is doing to its own people... Read the new laws and anything that have been past in the last 11 years and before and after 9/11... You will see that the blackhole that is swallowing you're freedom is getting bigger and bigger.
    Last edited by claud3; 10-20-2012 at 23:34.
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    Look i am not having ago at anyones opinion on this... But i will always state that since i live outside the U.S, i will never fully understands things. But what i truly understand


    Is that the laws are so unreal and laughable, it makes me wonder what is next on the tick list of the countries top brass

    1. freedom Nearly or all most gone for many and more to come...Tick

    2. war is one mind set the two parties agree on and so do congress and the house of representatives... Tick

    3. Drones on home soil... Tick

    4, Killing of own people on home soil... Tick

    5. holding people without trial longer than the required time allowed... Tick

    6. A defense bill at $1.4 trillion a year and still going up.... Tick

    7. In Debt at all most $17 trillion and still going up by $1 billion a second... Tick

    8. The increase drone usage in afgan, even though 80% of deaths are civilians..... Tick

    Now on the $1.4 trillion on defense. How on eath can one country spend so much and still get defeated by a group of people that spend only $50,000 to $100,000 a year on I.E.D's and AK 47'S and suicide bombers and they have the upper hand always.. Can you tell me that, nope because the u.s government can not understand it either.

    Not only that.. But it has come full circle again, were the U.S is army the same people they are fighting against and arming them in syria, libya, tusina to name a few... The soul enemy is the bread line for the spending of $500 billion of defense across the sea, to fight along side their enemy
    Last edited by claud3; 10-20-2012 at 22:54.
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    Quote Originally Posted by claud3 View Post
    Bold text mate... You have clearly lost that in the text i made and that is the fact you're freedom or freedoms are been taken away from you and loads have already

    you seem to not understand how your country works and what it is doing to its own people... Read the new laws and anything that have been past in the last 11 years and before and after 9/11... You will see that the blackhole that is swallowing you're freedom is getting bigger and bigger.

    lol... I know how things work here. I just don't have a sky is falling mentality like some people. My freedoms are aren't being taken away. I've never believed in living with fear and i'm not gonna start now.



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    Quote Originally Posted by claud3 View Post
    Now on the $1.4 trillion on defense. How on eath can one country spend so much and still get defeated by a group of people that spend only $50,000 to $100,000 a year on I.E.D's and AK 47'S and suicide bombers and they have the upper hand always.. Can you tell me that, nope because the u.s government can not understand it either.

    The suicide bombers and insurgents are not "winning" however, they cannot be totally defeated because the US is trying to strategically pick off insurgents rather than carpet bomb the area and try to obliterate them. In the past, wars had much higher civilian casualties. The US troops try to avoid this now, and as such, the insurgents are able to hide in highly populated areas.
    LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuguy View Post
    The suicide bombers and insurgents are not "winning" however, they cannot be totally defeated because the US is trying to strategically pick off insurgents rather than carpet bomb the area and try to obliterate them. In the past, wars had much higher civilian casualties. The US troops try to avoid this now, and as such, the insurgents are able to hide in highly populated areas.
    Sort of.

    Past wars were actual 'wars' in the sense that we were fighting an organized enemy propped up by a nation state. It was conventional warfare.

    We're just incapable of fighting anything but that kind of war, really. We're slow to change. Even simply going with the "bomb em' all" approach wouldn't really work- I mean these people don't really care much about national boundaries. You'd have to "invade" several countries to get to them all.

    In spite of our best efforts collateral damage happens and this does work in the insurgents favor. It's entirely what they want.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    lol... I know how things work here. I just don't have a sky is falling mentality like some people. My freedoms are aren't being taken away. I've never believed in living with fear and i'm not gonna start now.


    No. You really don't know how things work. If you did, you would not be posting this tripe you're posting now. A lesson on irony for you.

    "The best slave is the slave who thinks he's free."

    As things stand now, you have no rights. You may get away with saying and doing small things because you aren't perceived as a threat. As soon as you are, you can and will be woken up by black ops squads in the middle of the night, have a missile shoved up your ass via a predator drone or you will be picked up and detained at an undisclosed location, without trial or recourse.

    You think you're free? You have no clue as to what freedom really entails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    No. You really don't know how things work. If you did, you would not be posting this tripe you're posting now. A lesson on irony for you.

    "The best slave is the slave who thinks he's free."

    As things stand now, you have no rights. You may get away with saying and doing small things because you aren't perceived as a threat. As soon as you are, you can and will be woken up by black ops squads in the middle of the night, have a missile shoved up your ass via a predator drone or you will be picked up and detained at an undisclosed location, without trial or recourse.

    You think you're free? You have no clue as to what freedom really entails.
    "As long as the mind is slaved, the body can never be free."

    When people are consumed by fear, they will be controlled by it. I don't let anyone tell me what to be afraid of. I don't fear the government, it fears me.

  23. #2819
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    The Government doesn't fear you any more than a member of it fearing the use a q-tip cleaning his ears.




  24. #2820
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    Look the u.s government have had their ass's handed to them in afgan, Libya, Syria and etc..etc.

    Its this $ trillion wars and it costs the enemy just thousands to combat and defeat the u.s in wars that the u.s is funding and fighting with the enemy, even though they are allies with the enemy...

    You can say that one side is is winning the war, when both sides are fighting side by side and against each other.

    It makes no sense, when the enemy is allies with the u.s. Can no one see this besides me
    Last edited by claud3; 10-21-2012 at 15:20.
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  25. #2821
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    The Government doesn't fear you any more than a member of it fearing the use a q-tip cleaning his ears.
    And that's fine by me too. I chose faith over fear anyway. Everyone has a phobia. Living in fear of Government will never be mine. As FDR said:

    "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself".



    Quote Originally Posted by claud3 View Post
    Look the u.s government have had their ass's handed to them in afgan, Libya, Syria and etc..etc.



    Its this $ trillion wars and it costs the enemy just thousands to combat and defeat the u.s in wars that the u.s is funding and fighting with the enemy, even though they are allies with the enemy...

    You can say that one side is is winning the war, when both sides are fighting side by side and against each other.

    It makes no sense, when the enemy is allies with the u.s. Can no one see this besides me
    Not even close with that one. Syria?
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 10-21-2012 at 15:47.

  26. #2822
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    Well I have had my say and its been an important set of posts. So I will leave this thread, as I am worn out
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  27. #2823
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    if we're going to war they should just go to war. meaning, stop this $#@! footin around. one thing I hate right now is the fact that america is walking on egg shells, there is no balls in this country anymore. to my surprise it's a bunch of old emo farts.

  28. #2824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post

    Not even close with that one. Syria?
    I will let you think about that for a while and you will understand mate..

    Syria, Iran, china, tiawan, the sea of armous and the centrepiece of it all this is Israel and one move on the chess board and that is maybe or maybe not put a strike on Iran for its peaceful nuclear program...

    Syria was a lost cause even before the u.s helped the Arab spring two years ago. Ever since the assistance of Libya and the death of high rank enemies in Iraq, they the u.s.a knew change was needed and to get raid of the Egyptian leader and then the Libyan leader, the snowball effects would happen

    So Syria next and tusina happened while the attack on the Syria happened back in 2011, with this the last grab off central power in the IRAN chokehold.

    The u.s.a and allies all have lost... Because again, they are arming the enemy and trying to kill the enemy
    Last edited by claud3; 10-21-2012 at 16:40.
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  29. #2825
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    Another night and another debacle of a debate. I'm not sure I'll even waste my time with this one. The past two have only proved that Obama and Romney are a couple of rude snots. Cutting each other off, blaming one another for all kinds of things. These people are the ones running this country? That's sad. I look forward to not voting for either one of them next month. I'll pick whoever a third candidate is on the ballot and if there is no one I'll write in a random name.

    The whole political system is a joke.

    Focus. Control. Conviction. Resolve. A true ace lacks none of these attributes. Nothing can deter you from the task at hand except your own fears. This is your sky.

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