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    Quote Originally Posted by btbam View Post
    It's not a bad thing. The health benefits are obvious, i just don't think its any place for the government to be sticking their nose into.
    Some things are better without government but government is not all bad. Some politicians love to use that "big government" fear tactic while they sit back and make money off their government jobs. It's so hypocritical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    How many of them are as big as and as important as the auto industry? How many of them comprises 3 1/2 % of the GDP? Apples to oranges dude.
    There are plenty of very large companies that have gone bankrupt and are still around today, it happens. Hell, plenty of airlines have been in and out of Ch 11, Dow went bankrupt yet here they still are. If GM and Chrysler went bankrupt they would have just had to reorganize like every other large company that's gone bankrupt in the past.... It's happened tons of time through our history, as long as there's still demand for products and the products are worth a damn the companies can continue to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    GM is back to making profits and is in the top 10 on fortune 500 list. Even better than Ford. In the end the bailout worked no matter how much people try to deny it. I don't care if it was the right move or not. It worked and that matters to the employees because jobs were saved and now people can send their kids to college. But don't my word for it:
    I wouldn't go anywhere near saying GM is back, they are continuing to lose market share.... the longer term picture doesn't look good unless they can start producing better products.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    And the Ford CEO agrees with him. Romney was wrong. Period. Plus he always leave out the fact that he profited from the bailout that he is so against...or is he for it now? You never know with him.
    So, because a hedge fund bought Delphi when it was bouncing off the bottom, then sold it for a profit later, is there something wrong with that? Who cares if it's a hedge that Romney invested in?

    As far as the bailout is concerned, it's VERY simple, go into Ch 11, secure funding. The route they took was, bailout (failed), bailout (failed), Ch 11. See the difference? Cut step one and step two out.... go straight to step three!
    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


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    Quote Originally Posted by weskurtz81 View Post
    So, because a hedge fund bought Delphi when it was bouncing off the bottom, then sold it for a profit later, is there something wrong with that? Who cares if it's a hedge that Romney invested in?

    As far as the bailout is concerned, it's VERY simple, go into Ch 11, secure funding. The route they took was, bailout (failed), bailout (failed), Ch 11. See the difference? Cut step one and step two out.... go straight to step three!
    Considering where hedge funds came from, I have to agree that they are absolutely no good whatsoever. Hedge funds are a product of the derivatives market i.e., the biggest bubble in the stock market by far. Making money on predictions of what you say may or may not happen opens the door for far too much moral hazard. I actually long for the day that this particular bubble bursts. It's gonna liquidate more than $600,000,000,000,000 in debt and toxic assets, worldwide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Wall of text...lol We aren't headed for destruction but its nice of you to be concerned. Don't believe the hype.
    With $117 Trillion in total that the US government owes (including pensions, bonds, SS, etc.) the US is insolvent and literally finished. The can is being kicked down the road to prevent the whole system from suddenly collapsing triggering a worldwide financial meltdown. They averted it in 2008 but it was a very close call. There is only so far that can can be kicked. Its not hype just math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoverbike View Post
    With $117 Trillion in total that the US government owes (including pensions, bonds, SS, etc.) the US is insolvent and literally finished. The can is being kicked down the road to prevent the whole system from suddenly collapsing triggering a worldwide financial meltdown. They averted it in 2008 but it was a very close call. There is only so far that can can be kicked. Its not hype just math.
    ? I'm not disagreeing things are bad, but this really is going a bit too far. I agree that unless some significant changes happen things will continue to get worse, but to forecast the imminent destruction of the US as inevitable is kind of nuts.

    Anybody else have thoughts on this?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Considering where hedge funds came from, I have to agree that they are absolutely no good whatsoever. Hedge funds are a product of the derivatives market i.e., the biggest bubble in the stock market by far. Making money on predictions of what you say may or may not happen opens the door for far too much moral hazard. I actually long for the day that this particular bubble bursts. It's gonna liquidate more than $600,000,000,000,000 in debt and toxic assets, worldwide.
    Derivatives have been around for a VERY VERY long time, much longer than the first known hedge fund. Are you referring to the property derivatives that everyone knows about today as helping to create the collapse of 2008?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    ? I'm not disagreeing things are bad, but this really is going a bit too far. I agree that unless some significant changes happen things will continue to get worse, but to forecast the imminent destruction of the US as inevitable is kind of nuts.

    Anybody else have thoughts on this?
    Yes, the total debt is pretty earth shattering, luckily for us (kind of) most of it is owed to the citizens of the United States and the majority of it isn't due right now (it's paid out over time).

    Destruction isn't imminent (like the next 4 years), but we certainly can't continue doing the same ole routine.
    Last edited by weskurtz81; 11-02-2012 at 13:35.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weskurtz81 View Post
    There are plenty of very large companies that have gone bankrupt and are still around today, it happens. Hell, plenty of airlines have been in and out of Ch 11, Dow went bankrupt yet here they still are. If GM and Chrysler went bankrupt they would have just had to reorganize like every other large company that's gone bankrupt in the past.... It's happened tons of time through our history, as long as there's still demand for products and the products are worth a damn the companies can continue to survive.



    I wouldn't go anywhere near saying GM is back, they are continuing to lose market share.... the longer term picture doesn't look good unless they can start producing better products.



    So, because a hedge fund bought Delphi when it was bouncing off the bottom, then sold it for a profit later, is there something wrong with that? Who cares if it's a hedge that Romney invested in?

    As far as the bailout is concerned, it's VERY simple, go into Ch 11, secure funding. The route they took was, bailout (failed), bailout (failed), Ch 11. See the difference? Cut step one and step two out.... go straight to step three!
    Nah, GM is doing well. I will take their word for it over anyone else.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...nings/1670015/

    In other news. 171,000 jobs were added. That's better than expected. Unemployment went from 7.8. to 7.9. So I guess that kills that conspiracy that the numbers last month were fake. We are coming back slowly but surely. Still not fast enough though.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 11-02-2012 at 16:06.

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    delete
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 11-02-2012 at 16:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by weskurtz81 View Post
    Derivatives have been around for a VERY VERY long time, much longer than the first known hedge fund. Are you referring to the property derivatives that everyone knows about today as helping to create the collapse of 2008?
    Partially. The derivatives market didn't explode though until the 1990s. Now people trade on the basis of anything and everything. That market as it is now, should be allowed to fail like it was meant to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Nah, GM is doing well. I will take their word for it over anyone else.
    Only time will tell, success of a company isn't determine by a couple quarterly reports.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Partially. The derivatives market didn't explode though until the 1990s. Now people trade on the basis of anything and everything. That market as it is now, should be allowed to fail like it was meant to.
    But, really, it's like anything else, too much of it isn't a good thing. Just like lobbyists, it does serve a purpose, but it can also be harmful at a certain level.
    Last edited by weskurtz81; 11-03-2012 at 00:35.
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  12. #3036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Partially. The derivatives market didn't explode though until the 1990s. Now people trade on the basis of anything and everything. That market as it is now, should be allowed to fail like it was meant to.
    thats very romantic but I don't think you are grasping the consequences of "fail"

    needs to reigned in thats for sure.

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    So the truth comes out:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Nah, GM is doing well. I will take their word for it over anyone else.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...nings/1670015/

    In other news. 171,000 jobs were added. That's better than expected. Unemployment went from 7.8. to 7.9. So I guess that kills that conspiracy that the numbers last month were fake. We are coming back slowly but surely. Still not fast enough though.
    We're coming back based on the unemployment numbers increasing? over the last four years, continually increasing? You can create millions of jobs, but if the unemployment rate is still growing, lol, wtf.. how does that make sense to say we're coming back? smh




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    We're coming back based on the unemployment numbers increasing? over the last four years, continually increasing? You can create millions of jobs, but if the unemployment rate is still growing, lol, wtf.. how does that make sense to say we're coming back? smh
    As more jobs are created the rate will continue to fall. That's the way it is. You obviously haven't been following the numbers the past few months. The rate didn't go back up past 8% so that is good news. I know deep down some people don't wanna see good news but this is good news for the jobs market. The economy is improving slowly but maybe not fast enough. Anything is better than where we were years ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    So the truth comes out:

    Joe B. is the man... Love that guy. Can never say he is boring though...lol
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 11-03-2012 at 00:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    As more jobs are created the rate will continue to fall. That's the way it is. You obviously haven't been following the numbers the past few months. The rate didn't go back up past 8% so that is good news. I know deep down some people don't wanna see good news but this is good news for the jobs market. The economy is improving slowly but maybe not fast enough. Anything is better than where we were years ago.




    Joe B. is the man... Love that guy. Can never say he is boring though...lol
    lol. In four years... jobs created? Rates went down? Goodness. You obviously aren't following the numbers over the past four years. It didn't go back up to 8%.. but it's at 7.9%.. that's a drastic difference between his lies he promoted during his 2008 campaign... yeah, vote him back in so he can try again. smh




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    lol. In four years... jobs created? Rates went down? Goodness. You obviously aren't following the numbers over the past four years. It didn't go back up to 8%.. but it's at 7.9%.. that's a drastic difference between his lies he promoted during his 2008 campaign... yeah, vote him back in so he can try again. smh
    The unemployment rate was 10% before Obama took office and there has been over 5 million jobs created with 32 straight months of private sector growth. It could be a lot worse if the auto bailout didn't happen. Before he came into office things were a lot worse than they are now. It's not good enough and not happening fast enough but things were much worse back in 2008/2009.

    When Clinton left office the rate was 4.2 percent and when Obama came in it was around what it is right now, then it rose but now it's going back down. I don't know about any lies he told, but from what I can see things aren't getting worse, they seem to be improving a bit. Personally, I don't care who is in the white house as long as people are finding work and it eases the suffering.



    I really don't see why you care so much since you claim not to care about politics or care to vote. If you don't want to see things improve because you don't like who is in the white house, then just say so because that's what it sounds like. I never mentioned anything about Obama but if you don't like the man or what he stands for, then go cast your vote for the other guy and help get him out of office.

    Now if you wanna play the politics game we can go there because Ive been following this whole presidential race since the beginning and i know who lies and what the facts are.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 11-03-2012 at 01:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    The unemployment rate was 10% before Obama took office and there has been over 5 million jobs created with 32 straight months of private sector growth. It could be a lot worse if the auto bailout didn't happen. Before he came into office things were a lot worse than they are now. It's not good enough and not happening fast enough but things were much worse back in 2008/2009.

    When Clinton left office the rate was 4.2 percent and when Obama came in it was around what it is right now, then it rose but now it's going back down. I don't know about any lies he told, but from what I can see things aren't getting worse, they seem to be improving a bit. Personally, I don't care who is in the white house as long as people are finding work and it eases the suffering.



    I really don't see why you care so much since you claim not to care about politics or care to vote. If you don't want to see things improve because you don't like who is in the white house, then just say so because that's what it sounds like. I never mentioned anything about Obama but if you don't like the man or what he stands for, then go cast your vote for the other guy and help get him out of office.

    Now if you wanna play the politics game we can go there because Ive been following this whole presidential race since the beginning and i know who lies and what the facts are.
    Really? Then why spout cherry picked numbers.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...has-created-5/

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Really? Then why spout cherry picked numbers.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...has-created-5/
    yea, but I never said where they were created. Total jobs. Does it matter when it started or where they were created? I don't think so. Some jobs were created before the recovery started and most of them after. It still doesn't change the fact that progress has been made. You can't deny that. How many were created before that? Not very many. It's really sad some of you right wingers hate to see Americans doing better. Obama really makes you guys that crazy? You don't wanna go there with inaccuracies because I can blow you away with them from both sides without using politifact.

    Something tells me if Obama wins this election some of you are really gonna lose your minds.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 11-03-2012 at 02:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    So the truth comes out:

    That guy..
    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    yea, but I never said where they were created. Total jobs. Does it matter when it started or where they were created? I don't think so. Some jobs were created before the recovery started and most of them after. It still doesn't change the fact that progress has been made. You can't deny that. How many were created before that? Not very many. It's really sad some of you right wingers hate to see Americans doing better. Obama really makes you guys that crazy? You don't wanna go there with inaccuracies because I can blow you away with them from both sides without using politifact.

    Something tells me if Obama wins this election some of you are really gonna lose your minds.
    Sure, play the "i never gave specifics" card.

    It's funny how much you hate yourself since you are so unwilling to wake up and realize Obama is as bad as Romney if not worse. Obama is trying to play you.

    And last I checked libertarianism doesn't veer to either side, left or right. But hey, don't let facts get in the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...nings/1670015/

    In other news. 171,000 jobs were added. That's better than expected. Unemployment went from 7.8. to 7.9. So I guess that kills that conspiracy that the numbers last month were fake. We are coming back slowly but surely. Still not fast enough though.
    It pretty much confirms the number from last month were bogus actually. So, for sept. fewer jobs were created than oct. YET unemployment dropped from north of 8% to 7.8...then in Oct. which had more jobs created than Sept. mind you, the unemployment goes up a tic. doesn't that defy logic? only explanation, is they are messing with how unemployment is figured. Add in the people who dropped out of the market entirely and unemployment is actually around 11%. not to mention the millions who are underemployed right now. The economy is nowhere near recovering. We are not even creating enough jobs right now to keep up with population growth.

    Somebody get me a doctor, I ain't feelin' ill ...But I ain't feelin' this at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Sure, play the "i never gave specifics" card.
    no, you just caught up because you didn't read that article nor my post thoroughly. As we say in my profession, "next time make sure your safety isn't on before you try and fire a round."

    It's funny how much you hate yourself since you are so unwilling to wake up and realize Obama is as bad as Romney if not worse.
    I don't need to wake up because I realize that Obama is the president and it doesn't bother me as much as its does some of you. The people will decide who is best for the country and there is nothing you or anyone else here can do about that. And you don't know how bad Romney will be because he hasn't had the chance to serve yet. I don't think Obama is that bad because I don't just go along with what people say. I go by what I see and I don't see him as a bad president. I think a lot of Americans agree because if they didn't this race would already be over and Romney would be ahead in the polls but he is not. Obama isn't perfect but far from being bad for this country. You are just repeating things you have heard the media and political pundits say.




    And last I checked libertarianism doesn't veer to either side, left or right. But hey, don't let facts get in the way.
    Yea, i've heard that one before. If you are one,which i doubt, it's in name only. I don't buy it.



    Quote Originally Posted by btbam View Post
    It pretty much confirms the number from last month were bogus actually. So, for sept. fewer jobs were created than oct. YET unemployment dropped from north of 8% to 7.8...then in Oct. which had more jobs created than Sept. mind you, the unemployment goes up a tic. doesn't that defy logic? only explanation, is they are messing with how unemployment is figured. Add in the people who dropped out of the market entirely and unemployment is actually around 11%. not to mention the millions who are underemployed right now. The economy is nowhere near recovering. We are not even creating enough jobs right now to keep up with population growth.
    Bull$#@!. They weren't bogus. So you are saying Obama has the labor department in his pocket? Were they fake when it was up to 9 percent? Stop dude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    no, you just caught up because you didn't read that article nor my post thoroughly. As we say in my profession, "next time make sure your safety isn't on before you try and fire a round."



    I don't need to wake up because I realize that Obama is the president and it doesn't bother me as much as its does some of you. The people will decide who is best for the country and there is nothing you or anyone else here can do about that. And you don't know how bad Romney will be because he hasn't had the chance to serve yet. I don't think Obama is that bad because I don't just go along with what people say. I go by what I see and I don't see him as a bad president. I think a lot of Americans agree because if they didn't this race would already be over and Romney would be ahead in the polls but he is not. Obama isn't perfect but far from being bad for this country. You are just repeating things you have heard the media and political pundits say.






    Yea, i've heard that one before. If you are one,which i doubt, it's in name only. I don't buy it.





    Bull$#@!. They weren't bogus. So you are saying Obama has the labor department in his pocket? Were they fake when it was up to 9 percent? Stop dude.
    Funny, because according to your logic there Kerry should have won (by a landslide) in 04.




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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Funny, because according to your logic there Kerry should have won (by a landslide) in 04.




    There is the cold hard truth in that image. If you can't accept it, you have bigger problems.
    I don't give a $#@! about Kerry or what happened in 2004. I was a little busy at the time to worry about politics , but I did vote for Bush in the election before that one if you wanna dwell in the past. My point is that if Obama is as bad as people make him out to be, then the American people will vote him out. Simple as that. if that happens, I can live with it. Can you if it doesn't?

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