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  1. #3826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    But what he said is also a fact. His odds of surviving are much greater during a knife attack. I feel confident that I can defend myself against a knife attack.
    In that case, not going to the movies gives you an even better chance of surviving an attack at that theatre with a .50 cal. Smh

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Anything to keep people safer? That is a pretty poor standard for action.

    And you should know that areas with strict gun control tend to have higher crime rates. Taking guns out of the hands of civilians makes us less safe.

    Funny how you focus on the weapons that have very little to do with crime and not the ones that do.

    Stricter gun laws will set us back. It is guaranteed.

    What is long overdue the the revival of common sense and personal responsibility in today's society.

    Something that is sorely missing today.
    How is it gonna set us back? How are more background checks and military styled weapons out of civilian hands gonna set us back?





    What makes you assume that your fellow peers would even follow such an order? I wouldn't be surprised is a significant amount (possibly a majority) refused to do such a thing. If pushed they may even turn on those would would carry out such an order.
    Now that all depends on the order and the ROE. I highly doubt that order refusals will be much of a problem.

    Secondly there are around 2.9 million members of the US armed forces. Assuming all would comply they would be up against ~80 million gun owners. Now the military will have advantages regarding training, communication and logistics but 26 to 1 odds are too much to overcome.
    That's assuming all 80 million gun owners don't comply right...lol I don't care how many gun owners there are. You can't out shoot the military.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Molurus View Post
    In that case, not going to the movies gives you an even better chance of surviving an attack at that theatre with a .50 cal. Smh
    Makes no difference. Theatre, mall, bathroom....etc If you wanna believe under those circumstances a knife puts more people in danger than a assault rifle, go right ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    How is it gonna set us back? How are more background checks and military styled weapons out of civilian hands gonna set us back?







    Now that all depends on the order and the ROE. I highly doubt that order refusals will be much of a problem.



    That's assuming all 80 million gun owners don't comply right...lol I don't care how many gun owners there are. You can't out shoot the military.
    Do you know what incrementalism is?

    First it is the scary military style rifles.

    Then it is the high powered "sniper rifles"

    Then it is the high capacity semiautomatic handguns. (oh wait, they are already hitting that)

    And so on. We have seen what strict gun control does in the us. And we have also failed to see the predicted blood in the streets as a result of certain pro gun laws being passed. (like concealed carry).

    They do nothing to make us safer, in fact it is more likely it does the opposite. It is all about control of the populace.



    Keep your ROE's. They won't matter when an order like that comes down.


    The fact of the matter is that any way you want to look at it you will be outnumbered. And will not get the benefit of being engaged in conventional warfare/by conventional means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Do you know what incrementalism is?

    First it is the scary military style rifles.

    Then it is the high powered "sniper rifles"

    Then it is the high capacity semiautomatic handguns. (oh wait, they are already hitting that)

    And so on. We have seen what strict gun control does in the us. And we have also failed to see the predicted blood in the streets as a result of certain pro gun laws being passed. (like concealed carry).

    They do nothing to make us safer, in fact it is more likely it does the opposite. It is all about control of the populace.
    Nobody wants to control you. It's all in your head. If all else fails you can always choose to leave the country but somehow I don't think you will.

    Keep your ROE's. They won't matter when an order like that comes down.


    The fact of the matter is that any way you want to look at it you will be outnumbered. And will not get the benefit of being engaged in conventional warfare/by conventional means.
    I can just see it now. The headlines read " AH 64 Apaches with its 30mm chain gun and hellfire missiles were no match for the local militias ar15s and shotguns".....also "Tank rounds continue to bounce off the armored plated houses in Saginaw Michigan". Shocking!....lol
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 01-25-2013 at 05:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Nobody wants to control you. It's all in your head. If all else fails you can always choose to leave the country but somehow I don't think you will.



    I can just see it now. The headlines read " AH 64 Apaches with its 30mm chain gun and hellfire missiles were no match for the local militias ar15s and shotguns".....also "Tank rounds continue to bounce off the armored plated houses in Saginaw Michigan". Shocking!....lol
    How delusional are you? Everything the government does is about control. There are far too many examples to list all around us They want to tell you what is best and how to live your lives. People will say they do it in the name of the greater good, but where does it stop. It is never enough, the government always thinks it can do more to better the lives of the citizens. Eventually we have over legislated ourselves to the point that you must live in a precisely set way otherwise you will be breaking some law or another.

    To quote samuel jackson (albeit from a misguided advertisement): Wake the $#@! up.

    And why would I leave? I was born here, this is my country. Trust me I will be the last one to go.

    People are joking when they say the US is the last bastion of freedom in the world.





    Boy I knew you had issues but I didn't think you were this dumb.

    Do you really think the US military will unleash its armored vehicles, helicopters and planes against US citizens on its own soil? This isn't China. It will never go that far. If it ever did the US would lose any credibility in the eyes of the rest of the world and would probably be the subject of an attempted invasion by another country.

    The fact that you think such things could even occur makes me highly questionable of your judgement and reasoning ability.

    Hell I wonder if that oath you took matters at all. What are you fighting for? If you are so willing to infringe the 2nd amendment what will you do to the others along with the rest of the constitution.

  7. #3832
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    What is long overdue the the revival of common sense and personal responsibility in today's society.

    Something that is sorely missing today.
    Well... that about wraps this thang up. +rep


    $Greatness$ Awaits™


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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    How delusional are you? Everything the government does is about control. There are far too many examples to list all around us They want to tell you what is best and how to live your lives. People will say they do it in the name of the greater good, but where does it stop. It is never enough, the government always thinks it can do more to better the lives of the citizens. Eventually we have over legislated ourselves to the point that you must live in a precisely set way otherwise you will be breaking some law or another.

    To quote samuel jackson (albeit from a misguided advertisement): Wake the $#@! up.

    And why would I leave? I was born here, this is my country. Trust me I will be the last one to go.

    People are joking when they say the US is the last bastion of freedom in the world.
    It would be crazy for anyone to say that everything about the government is good because the fact is it isn't, but at the same time everything isn't bad either. Iv'e never been someone who supports big government but I think a more effective one works for everyone. All this overreacting to basically nothing is really foolish. First the gov heath care scare and now it's moved on to fear of gun rights being taken away.
    [/QUOTE]

    Boy I knew you had issues but I didn't think you were this dumb.
    IMO you are just as dumb for suggesting that the citizens would take on it's military? Makes sense right?...lol

    Do you really think the US military will unleash its armored vehicles, helicopters and planes against US citizens on its own soil? This isn't China. It will never go that far. If it ever did the US would lose any credibility in the eyes of the rest of the world and would probably be the subject of an attempted invasion by another country.

    The fact that you think such things could even occur makes me highly questionable of your judgement and reasoning ability.

    Hell I wonder if that oath you took matters at all. What are you fighting for? If you are so willing to infringe the 2nd amendment what will you do to the others along with the rest of the constitution.
    lol... I think most can read what i wrote and know i'm not serious. I clearly stated that the gov would never do that simply because it doesn't wanna take your guns. You are falling for the same crap that been pulled over and over the past 4 years. Putting limits on assault weapons and clips isn't taking away gun rights. The proposals only improve on the 1994 weapons assault ban that already exists. It's just basically closing loopholes. Or do you think that arming teachers is the answer? What is the NRA doing to make our citizens safer? Nothing, because they don't care about gun owners. They care about the manufacturers and we all know why. Stop the madness and take your own advice and wake the $#@! up. The bogeyman isn't out to get you.

    Now I gotta go cause it's getting late here. Besides, we are scheduled to attack North Carolina and west Virginia at 0430 tomorrow.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 01-25-2013 at 06:38.

  9. #3834
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    If the US military turned on its own people, it would be utterly destroyed. Consider.

    A bunch of poorly trained, poorly equipped goat herders in Afghanistan have given us hell these past years. Why? Because we suck at counter insurgency. This is not to say the insurgents are weak or not tough- just that comparatively they are outmatched.

    Why is this? Because asymmetrical warfare has the benefit of attacking where the standing force is weakest at any time and then slip back into the regular population. Plant an IED on a road, a bomb in a car, blow up a bridge, cut power cables, take pot shots at a convoy to hold it up. Kill a few soldiers, wound twice as many.

    All of these things add up. You make a military that is absolutely dependent upon proper logistics and structure crack underneath prolonged non-conventional tactics with guerrilla maneuvers.

    They did it to the Soviets. They're doing it to us. Yes, we trained and armed them but they were no proper match against the Soviet war machine, or ours, in a stand up fight. Much the same way that we leveraged a new way of fighting against the British during the revolutionary war. We learned from the Indians that standing in giant rows and formations and shooting each other was probably not the most pragmatic way to go about war.


    Now take all this and apply it to the United States. First, let's pretend that the volunteer military does not fragment whatsoever. Even in this situation, coupled with the other federal agencies, the government would be run into the ground within months. Assuming no outside interference one way or another.

    We have such a large population that is so well armed there would be no winning. Because the military, like in Afghanistan, would not start leveling entire cities and blowing up critical infrastructure but the rebels would. They'd be cutting power lines, blowing up bridges and fuel depots, taking pot shots at troops on patrol and blending back in. Using weaponry far more potent and sophisticated than is available to the extremist salafist\wahabi goons.

    Using materials at Walmart and Home Depot to make more sophisticated bombs and IED's than third world nation rebels could ever hope to achieve.

    It's simple math. I can spend like $8 dollars on some high proof alcohol, get a rag and lighter and throw it into an open military transport and cause thousands of dollars worth of damage. Severe burns mean medical treatment, the interior of the car would be all messed up and have to be refitted, there may even be a death or two depending on how good an aim I am.

    That's the power of modern technology, even on a casual level, meeting military application. This is why insurgency is so damn powerful.

    Abram tanks.. Drones.. Apaches.. None of these things do you any good unless you have the resolve to literally steamroll an entire city and waste droves of the populace in order to achieve your military objective. Obviously, this would cause even more people to join the cause and hasten the defeat of the government.

    There's no outcome here that results in the government's victory unless the militants have all their balls drop off for some reason half way through.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 01-25-2013 at 07:08.


  10. #3835
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I can just see it now. The headlines read " AH 64 Apaches with its 30mm chain gun and hellfire missiles were no match for the local militias ar15s and shotguns".....also "Tank rounds continue to bounce off the armored plated houses in Saginaw Michigan". Shocking!....lol
    There's over 100mil firearms owner in the U.S. Texas alone has more guns owner than the Chinese Army. Most active & retired military men/women who served will support the citizen and not the government. Most are in the NRA and know quite a lot about our military strategies and tactics so ur snide Apache remarks is stupid. If the government decide to attack the "Militia with Ar15 and shotgun" they will get crushed within months, and before a pilot can get in his Apache there would be an AR15 pointing at his face by an active military personnel who is keeping his oath.

    It would get to the point to where they will be forces to fight on the ground and if u think Afgan/Iraq is bad wait until u fight 100mil ppl with AR15 and shotguns. A war with those who know the in and out of the U.S. military is the one they do not want and most gun shop has more than just AR and shotguns.

    That is why the government want to disarm the country little by little, systematically, and it usually start with a national registration, and a gun ban. Oh and unlike Afgan/Iraqis we American knows how to reloads some really potent ammo.
    Last edited by reasonable_doubt; 01-25-2013 at 08:44.

  11. #3836
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    Military style weapons? Lol!! What a joke. The jokes about knives in theaters is a liberal propaganda speech out of the mouth of incompetent politicians.

    The fact is they want to ban guns that cause less deaths than knives, period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DayWalker View Post
    ...not sure where or how you interpreted screaming like a 9 year old...

    perhaps a sexual fetish?
    Dude, you have serious problems. But I suppose you'd have too, in order to be able to post the $#@! you do.
    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.




  13. #3838
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    I like how he is focusing on gun control instead of anything he promised he would do when he got re_elected. Ie bringing the troops home. Already starting strong with failed promises.
    I have twitter to https://twitter.com/GamerYuichi , Also started youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMu7yRGCz8QrTyxaNVR3Tqw I don't always twitch, but when I can you can find my noobness http://www.twitch.tv/yuichimccry,




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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuuichi View Post
    I like how he is focusing on gun control instead of anything he promised he would do when he got re_elected. Ie bringing the troops home. Already starting strong with failed promises.
    He supports a lot of things he blamed and degraded past Presidents...

    Check out his 2006 and 2008 speeches about raising the debt ceiling as being irresponsible and in patriotic. Now he wants it badly. He isn't worth two cents.

    Screw actually doing things for the People; unless the welfare and illegal immigrants are what is most important right behind controlling the People on his own agendas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    If the US military turned on its own people, it would be utterly destroyed. Consider.

    A bunch of poorly trained, poorly equipped goat herders in Afghanistan have given us hell these past years. Why? Because we suck at counter insurgency. This is not to say the insurgents are weak or not tough- just that comparatively they are outmatched.

    Why is this? Because asymmetrical warfare has the benefit of attacking where the standing force is weakest at any time and then slip back into the regular population. Plant an IED on a road, a bomb in a car, blow up a bridge, cut power cables, take pot shots at a convoy to hold it up. Kill a few soldiers, wound twice as many.

    All of these things add up. You make a military that is absolutely dependent upon proper logistics and structure crack underneath prolonged non-conventional tactics with guerrilla maneuvers.

    They did it to the Soviets. They're doing it to us. Yes, we trained and armed them but they were no proper match against the Soviet war machine, or ours, in a stand up fight. Much the same way that we leveraged a new way of fighting against the British during the revolutionary war. We learned from the Indians that standing in giant rows and formations and shooting each other was probably not the most pragmatic way to go about war.


    Now take all this and apply it to the United States. First, let's pretend that the volunteer military does not fragment whatsoever. Even in this situation, coupled with the other federal agencies, the government would be run into the ground within months. Assuming no outside interference one way or another.

    We have such a large population that is so well armed there would be no winning. Because the military, like in Afghanistan, would not start leveling entire cities and blowing up critical infrastructure but the rebels would. They'd be cutting power lines, blowing up bridges and fuel depots, taking pot shots at troops on patrol and blending back in. Using weaponry far more potent and sophisticated than is available to the extremist salafist\wahabi goons.

    Using materials at Walmart and Home Depot to make more sophisticated bombs and IED's than third world nation rebels could ever hope to achieve.

    It's simple math. I can spend like $8 dollars on some high proof alcohol, get a rag and lighter and throw it into an open military transport and cause thousands of dollars worth of damage. Severe burns mean medical treatment, the interior of the car would be all messed up and have to be refitted, there may even be a death or two depending on how good an aim I am.

    That's the power of modern technology, even on a casual level, meeting military application. This is why insurgency is so damn powerful.

    Abram tanks.. Drones.. Apaches.. None of these things do you any good unless you have the resolve to literally steamroll an entire city and waste droves of the populace in order to achieve your military objective. Obviously, this would cause even more people to join the cause and hasten the defeat of the government.

    There's no outcome here that results in the government's victory unless the militants have all their balls drop off for some reason half way through.
    That's because politics are involved.
    We don't suck at counter insurgency. You are severely mistaken if you think so. We do have disadvantages that play to their favor which makes for difficult intelligence gathering. Insurgencies are difficult to control on a military and political level. Our counter terror tactics do make things difficult but it's not because we suck at it. Take away the politics and any insurgency is easily defeated by a stronger and better trained and equipped force.
    We still have some of the best counter terror/insurgent forces in the world and Afghanistan/Iraq is a reflection on our leaders not the uniformed personnel.

    As for all this other crazy stuff about home depot IEDs are just ridiculous. The US would never order the military to attack it's own people. That would be genocide because realistically there would be little you can do to stop it..

  16. #3841
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    The US government would never want to outright kill its own people. It would want to control them.

    So the government has even less power in a tyrannical situation. Therefore, the argument that it's pointless having guns to defend against tyranny is a poor argument.

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  18. #3842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    The US government would never want to outright kill its own people. It would want to control them.

    So the government has even less power in a tyrannical situation. Therefore, the argument that it's pointless having guns to defend against tyranny is a poor argument.
    Depends on the situation and other factors. Guns may or may not be needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Depends on the situation and other factors. Guns may or may not be needed.
    Since our government wouldn't outright nuke or bomb the whole country, the playing field is more even. So having a well-armed population WOULD be a deterrent. That's all I'm saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    Since our government wouldn't outright nuke or bomb the whole country, the playing field is more even. So having a well-armed population WOULD be a deterrent. That's all I'm saying.
    of course it would. Anyone armed would be a deterrent. But there is nothing that you can arm yourself with that can cause the destruction that military weapons can do. It would be totally psychological.



    Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal: GOP must stop being ‘stupid party’


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...aa446_story.ht

    Little late for that one.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 01-25-2013 at 23:06.

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    http://www.gallup.com/poll/160085/am...-violence.aspx

    Americans Back Obama's Proposals to Address Gun Violence
    Criminal background checks on gun sales garner highest level of support





    If Congress is looking to public opinion for what to pass first, the poll indicates background checks, stiffer penalties on straw purchasers, bans on armor-piercing bullets, and more funding for police, school security, and mental health programs would face little public resistance. On the other hand, other gun control measures, such as bans on so-called assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, might not only be difficult to get through Congress, but hard to sell to Republicans and independents. At the very least, Congress needs to make sure that any action taken on guns is seen as supplemental to meaningful school security and mental health policy reforms, not a substitute for it.
    ===============

    Quote Originally Posted by Molurus View Post
    Military style weapons? Lol!! What a joke. The jokes about knives in theaters is a liberal propaganda speech out of the mouth of incompetent politicians.

    The fact is they want to ban guns that cause less deaths than knives, period.
    this whole discussion stems from mass murder using guns. not knives. nobody is disputing knives kill people too. they aren't used in mass murders. so your fact is irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yuuichi View Post
    I like how he is focusing on gun control instead of anything he promised he would do when he got re_elected. Ie bringing the troops home. Already starting strong with failed promises.
    you don't simply get to ignore current events in pursuit of your agenda.


    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    Dude, you have serious problems. But I suppose you'd have too, in order to be able to post the $#@! you do.
    coming from you this mean nothing.

    all you've ever added to this thread is name-calling and whining.

    go outside, get a tan.

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    Trust me, it's sad

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  23. #3846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    That's because politics are involved.
    We don't suck at counter insurgency. You are severely mistaken if you think so. We do have disadvantages that play to their favor which makes for difficult intelligence gathering. Insurgencies are difficult to control on a military and political level. Our counter terror tactics do make things difficult but it's not because we suck at it. Take away the politics and any insurgency is easily defeated by a stronger and better trained and equipped force.
    We still have some of the best counter terror/insurgent forces in the world and Afghanistan/Iraq is a reflection on our leaders not the uniformed personnel.

    As for all this other crazy stuff about home depot IEDs are just ridiculous. The US would never order the military to attack it's own people. That would be genocide because realistically there would be little you can do to stop it..
    I think your sadly mistaken. Hundreds of millions of pissed off Americans fighting on their home turf? The government would be loathe to annihilate huge swaths of its population- that would literally be suicide.

    It would be powerless.

    And the military would fragment. So no, government cannot win.

    @Daywalker

    The majority of Americans are chill with the Executive Orders (top image) like I said.

    Check out his legislation numbers through for a stronger AWB, and magazine\AP ammo bans. The only people who are onboard with that by majority are Democrats. Not Independents and Republicans.

    edit: whoops, except AP rounds. But that's kind of nonsense anyway.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 01-26-2013 at 00:11.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I think your sadly mistaken. Hundreds of millions of pissed off Americans fighting on their home turf? The government would be loathe to annihilate huge swaths of its population- that would literally be suicide.

    It would be powerless.

    And the military would fragment. So no, government cannot win.
    lol...you sound silly. Everyone in this country doesn't hate the government so don't count on those hundreds of millions....lol Better hide yo guns...



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    lol...you sound silly. Everyone in this country doesn't hate the government so don't count on those hundreds of millions....lol Better hide yo guns...



    I'm not saying like, if tomorrow extremists when nuts and waged war on the US Government. The series of abuses and missteps the government would have to make would be far, far greater than they are right now to warrant any kind of reasonable response of force from its citizenry.

    http://liberaltaria.com/
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 01-26-2013 at 00:22.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I'm not saying like, if tomorrow extremists when nuts and waged war on the US Government. The series of abuses and missteps the government would have to make would be far, far greater than they are right now to warrant any kind of reasonable response of force from its citizenry.

    http://liberaltaria.com/
    Only one way to find out. Those extremist would get there ass handed to them by law enforcement. You don't need no military for that. No contest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    @Daywalker

    The majority of Americans are chill with the Executive Orders (top image) like I said.

    Check out his legislation numbers through for a stronger AWB, and magazine\AP ammo bans. The only people who are onboard with that by majority are Democrats. Not Independents and Republicans.

    edit: whoops, except AP rounds. But that's kind of nonsense anyway.
    thats fine. My point has been reinforced is all.

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