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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Why would I waste time trying to refute that. Even if I do what is it gonna prove?Nothing. Just like you didn't prove anything by providing that link.You are missing the whole point here...... and that is why the bill actually got blocked. Not about some right wing conspiracy theorist who preaches about the fear to "take our guns" sermons on a regular basis. I don't buy into that bull$#@!. Come back to earth dude. This isn't about one persons view on all of this. The majority of Americans and gun owning one's agree with the president. Lets see you refute that.
    It would provide some amount of legitimacy to your view. Not offering a rebuttal and putting up ad hominem attacks chip away at any credibility/legitimacy you had.

    I proved that there were valid reasons to oppose the passage of this amendment. What else could you possibly want.

    How many Americans know what the exactly what the current laws are on this issue? And how many of those Americans know all the things that this amendment would do to the current law.

    I'm willing to be if you polled Americans that met both those standards you would find a pitiful amount of support for this legislation.

    And that is what matters. Anybody can word a poll a certain way to generate a certain result when you are polling the general public. But if you are up front and honest, and seek out the opinions of informed people you are far less likely to get the results that are constantly touted about this issue.

    Hell I'll put up another data point, from police officers. You know, the people that enforce the laws on the street.

    http://www.policeone.com/Gun-Legisla...cers-thoughts/

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    It would provide some amount of legitimacy to your view. Not offering a rebuttal and putting up ad hominem attacks chip away at any credibility/legitimacy you had.

    I proved that there were valid reasons to oppose the passage of this amendment. What else could you possibly want.
    You didn't prove jack. All you did was show reasons why you think some people appose the bill. Of course people are gonna appose the bill but that's not the reason that it failed in congress. Why can't you get that through your head.. IT WASN"T THE PEOPLE.
    How many Americans know what the exactly what the current laws are on this issue? And how many of those Americans know all the things that this amendment would do to the current law.

    I'm willing to be if you polled Americans that met both those standards you would find a pitiful amount of support for this legislation.
    A lot of them don't know and that's what the NRA wants. They want gun owners to believe whatever they tell them. Meanwhile they will use their money to influence members of congress to go their way . That's exactly what they did. Americans know what really happened to this bill. It's really not that hard to figure out.

    And that is what matters. Anybody can word a poll a certain way to generate a certain result when you are polling the general public. But if you are up front and honest, and seek out the opinions of informed people you are far less likely to get the results that are constantly touted about this issue.
    Exactly, and your link below proves that.

    Hell I'll put up another data point, from police officers. You know, the people that enforce the laws on the street.

    http://www.policeone.com/Gun-Legisla...cers-thoughts/
    lol...yea with misleading poll questions just like you said. How original. I don't see any questions about how many of them would like to see their kids shot 11 times by an AR 15.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 04-19-2013 at 04:27.

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    gun control is just that control... Over any aspect of freedom that is drowned in a ocean off fear and made up lies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    You didn't prove jack. All you did was show reasons why you think some people appose the bill. Of course people are gonna appose the bill but that's not the reason that it failed in congress. Why can't you get that through your head.. IT WASN"T THE PEOPLE.
    Ok man. Keep rolling with that. People looked at the bill and didn't like what they saw. So they wrote there representatives telling them to oppose that legislation. Plain and simple the support wasn't there.

    You lack of a proper rebuttal is really telling.

    A lot of them don't know and that's what the NRA wants. They want gun owners to believe whatever they tell them. Meanwhile they will use their money to influence members of congress to go their way . That's exactly what they did. Americans know what really happened to this bill. It's really not that hard to figure out.
    Wow here come the contradictions. First you say the NRA is irrelevant and only caters to a small subset of gun owners (5 million) out of the ~80-100 million out there. Then you say that they got everyone to listen to them, and then misled them. You also said people were smart enough to figure things out. But then you say they were capable of being fooled by the NRA. Back and forth, you can't even get your own story straight.

    The average American is ignorant on these issues. They are ignorant for various reasons. Perhaps they don't own/use guns, or have neighbors that own/use them. Perhaps they don't interact with gun owners/users. Perhaps they live in a state with simple gun laws and take this sort of thing for granted. Perhaps they only use their guns a handful of times per yer (say for hunting) or just keep one in the house for self defense (but never practice with it at the range). And so on.

    Problem is for a lot of these people, instead of conversing with more knowledgeable people on this subject (who may be gun owners) they seek their information from the MSM or tv/movies which obviously have a certain bias based on their agenda. So they receive misleading information or incorrect information which them combined with vague polling questions gives the sense of a certain consensus that really doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny.


    Exactly, and your link below proves that.



    lol...yea with misleading poll questions just like you said. How original. I don't see any questions about how many of them would like to see their kids shot 11 times by an AR 15.
    HaHa you are providing me with comedy gold.

    I can't find a clearer more objective/straightforward poll on this subject.

    The sample size is very large much more so than the norm (which can range from a few hundred to a couple thousand).

    All participating police officers are vetted.

    The poll offers multiple questions, several of which allow the participant to provide their own answer choice (instead of the standard yes/no).

    Not to mention we are polling police officers would enforce any and all laws passed and should be knowledgeable about current laws unlike the average citizen.

    The questions asked are present for anybody to see (unlike those 90% percent polls people like throwing around)

    Are You serious? Is this real life? Obviously the answer would be none. The difference is that the police officers polled are not manipulated by their emotions. They used facts and logic combined with their experiences on the job to answer the survey. They know that he proposed measures do not make us safer, do no prevent the next mass shooting, ect. They do know that it would infringe on the people's rights however. Of all the people you could ask what kind of legislation would make us safer, the cop on the street is the best one to ask. They live and die based on what goes on in the street. They enforce the laws passed by congress (even if it puts them at risk of injury/death). They know what will work and what will not. Yet even the people who have the most credibility on this issue and the most to gain/lose from it, you dismiss their views and opinions entirely.

    Seriously, you just dug yourself into a bottomless hole.

    If it wasn't clear to everyone before, it should be crystal clear now. Good luck maintaining any credibility/legitimacy regarding politics now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Ok man. Keep rolling with that. People looked at the bill and didn't like what they saw. So they wrote there representatives telling them to oppose that legislation. Plain and simple the support wasn't there.

    You lack of a proper rebuttal is really telling.
    Bull$#@!. They were gonna appose that legislation anyway and it had very little to do with people writing any representatives. They already had their minds made up before any legislation came to be. You just proved how naive you are with that one.....lol And you say i don't think for myself...lol

    Wow here come the contradictions. First you say the NRA is irrelevant and only caters to a small subset of gun owners (5 million) out of the ~80-100 million out there. Then you say that they got everyone to listen to them, and then misled them. You also said people were smart enough to figure things out. But then you say they were capable of being fooled by the NRA. Back and forth, you can't even get your own story straight.
    I never said the NRA was irrelevant. Don't try to twist what I said. I said that more people agree with Obama on this but it doesn't matter because they have certain politicians in their pockets. Plain and simple. We`all know which party is in the NRA's pocket but i'm sure you will overlook that one right?...lol

    The average American is ignorant on these issues. They are ignorant for various reasons. Perhaps they don't own/use guns, or have neighbors that own/use them. Perhaps they don't interact with gun owners/users. Perhaps they live in a state with simple gun laws and take this sort of thing for granted. Perhaps they only use their guns a handful of times per yer (say for hunting) or just keep one in the house for self defense (but never practice with it at the range). And so on.
    Some are ignorant on these issues and that includes the way money and politics influence people's decisions. You don't have to be a gun owner to understand what is going on with all of this.

    Problem is for a lot of these people, instead of conversing with more knowledgeable people on this subject (who may be gun owners) they seek their information from the MSM or tv/movies which obviously have a certain bias based on their agenda. So they receive misleading information or incorrect information which them combined with vague polling questions gives the sense of a certain consensus that really doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny.
    Exactly. it's like saying they are coming for our guns when it's not even like that at all. Misleading information just like you said. Use fear to get what you want. It's the oldest trick in the book but it still works on some people.




    HaHa you are providing me with comedy gold.
    No my friend you are comedy gold because you think this bill was killed because people are against it. You are the one that is blind.



    Are You serious? Is this real life? Obviously the answer would be none. The difference is that the police officers polled are not manipulated by their emotions. They used facts and logic combined with their experiences on the job to answer the survey. They know that he proposed measures do not make us safer, do no prevent the next mass shooting, ect. They do know that it would infringe on the people's rights however. Of all the people you could ask what kind of legislation would make us safer, the cop on the street is the best one to ask. They live and die based on what goes on in the street. They enforce the laws passed by congress (even if it puts them at risk of injury/death). They know what will work and what will not. Yet even the people who have the most credibility on this issue and the most to gain/lose from it, you dismiss their views and opinions entirely.

    Seriously, you just dug yourself into a bottomless hole.
    you silly dude. No one ever said that this would make us safer or prevent any mass shootings. Legally arming more people sure as hell won't solve anything either.
    That poll is a joke. And for the record i dismissed the poll questions and not their views. It seems that you didn't even read them.

    And this question made me laugh:


    Schools are gun free zones. Arming teachers and administrators is real smart right... Parents would just love that one....smh
    How about asking if they want to see fewer guns in the hands of bad guys. See my point now. Those questions aren't really so great. very misleading poll.

    If it wasn't clear to everyone before, it should be crystal clear now. Good luck maintaining any credibility/legitimacy regarding politics now.
    And you are the king of credibility/legitimacy giving out links to skewed polls and right wing conspiracy theorist web sites? You call that credibility.....lol I don't think so. Is that your mission here? To try to prove to people here that i have no credibility. If it is then you are failing miserably.

    Even Mccain knows how stupid his party is being on this:


    Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) on Sunday expressed opposition to possible GOP efforts to filibuster a Senate gun-control measure, saying he did not “understand” the move to block debate.
    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/04/0...k-gun-control/

    Oh i forgot that they don't give a $#@! about him anymore because he lost the election.

    Its plain to see that you and a few others will be against anything Obama is for. Plain and simple. One member already pointed that out. Whats so funny about it is that it's so plain to see with people like you. If only more right wingers like yourself showed this much passion about voting then Obama wouldn't be in office right now. Then the discussion would be about voters "took their country back" right? Your party is in a down spiral and they continue to prove it with these actions. This gun vote for sure will come back to bite them in the ass. Indeed it will.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 04-19-2013 at 06:42.

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    delete
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 04-19-2013 at 06:35.

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    Bills, laws, more bills, more laws. That's what's wrong with this country. They're taking what little freedom we have left. All this gun control debate is bull$#@!. Guns aren't the reasons for people being killed. It's the $#@!ing idiots who are in possession of them. I'm all for keeping our guns in our households. It's our only means of freedom from our government. All these strict laws about making tight background checks is necessary, I agree with that. But how the bill was introduce was sloppy. Like MATRIX 2 said they couldn't come up with a simple bill to address the issue. Obama shouldn't be pissed at the house of senate, he should be pissed at himself. But really what are these bills really going to do? Nothing, that's for damn sure. U.S can't do $#@! about. Look at the war on drugs. We've been fighting the war on drugs for over 40 years, and what have we've done? Not enough if you ask me. The $#@!ing cartel is still making millions of dollars every year. So who's to say people won't find a way to smuggle illegal weapons into this country? All these bills are pointless. Humans have been fighting each other since the 1st civilization was formed. So why stop us now? Sadly, people need killing to get their points taken seriously, especially all these damn liberals. But unfortunately, there will always be war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadCrow View Post
    Bills, laws, more bills, more laws. That's what's wrong with this country. They're taking what little freedom we have left. All this gun control debate is bull$#@!. Guns aren't the reasons for people being killed. It's the $#@!ing idiots who are in possession of them. I'm all for keeping our guns in our households. It's our only means of freedom from our government. All these strict laws about making tight background checks is necessary, I agree with that. But how the bill was introduce was sloppy. Like MATRIX 2 said they couldn't come up with a simple bill to address the issue. Obama shouldn't be pissed at the house of senate, he should be pissed at himself. But really what are these bills really going to do? Nothing, that's for damn sure. U.S can't do $#@! about. Look at the war on drugs. We've been fighting the war on drugs for over 40 years, and what have we've done? Not enough if you ask me. The $#@!ing cartel is still making millions of dollars every year. So who's to say people won't find a way to smuggle illegal weapons into this country? All these bills are pointless. Humans have been fighting each other since the 1st civilization was formed. So why stop us now? Sadly, people need killing to get their points taken seriously, especially all these damn liberals. But unfortunately, there will always be war.
    A perfect example of why we need tougher background checks....lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    A perfect example of why we need tougher background checks....lol


    Sorry, that won't help in curbing the violent crime rate. How many instances that have happened over the last 20 years can you come up with where "tougher background checks" would have stopped the violence?




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post


    Sorry, that won't help in curbing the violent crime rate. How many instances that have happened over the last 20 years can you come up with where "tougher background checks" would have stopped the violence?
    I never said it would but tougher background checks surely won't hurt either. If it stops a single person who shouldn't be in possession then it's worth it IMO.

    I can't believe you guys see nothing wrong with someone saying some people need killing to get a point across. Really?

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    Do you not understand that the last few major shootings, the guns were acquired by taking them from people that would easily pass a background check.
    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.




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    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    Do you not understand that the last few major shootings, the guns were acquired by taking them from people that would easily pass a background check.
    Yep i realize that. That's why need more background checks for owners and other family members if necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Yep i realize that. That's why need more background checks for owners and other family members if necessary.
    Even the most psychotic person can live a normal life, and pass a background check. Hell, if you just suddenly decided to go shoot some place up, you might not have thought like that before and lived a quite normal life.
    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.




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    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth-;6069115[B
    ]Even the most psychotic person can live a normal life, and pass a background check. [/B]Hell, if you just suddenly decided to go shoot some place up, you might not have thought like that before and lived a quite normal life.
    O.k. Then whats the problem with the checks?

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    Is it even a question of what is wrong with the checks? That strikes me as being the wrong thing to consider here. Indeed, what should be considered is their effectiveness at all. Clearly, if checks did prevent or slow gun-related crimes substantially or even noticeably, then one would be inclined to put them in place, as they would serve a legitimate and influential purpose. But have such things been shown to be necessary or preventive of what they intend to stop? No? I don't they really have.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 04-19-2013 at 14:32.
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    You're right Rapture. It's obvious that it hasn't helped. The banning of all this stuff they want to ban, didn't help last time it was done.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    O.k. Then whats the problem with the checks?
    I don't mind the checks, but Obama will never settle for just that. Give a mouse a cookie, and it'll ask for a glass of milk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Is it even a question of what is wrong with the checks? That strikes me as being the wrong thing to consider here. Indeed, what should be considered is their effectiveness at all. Clearly, if checks did prevent or slow gun-related crimes substantially or even noticeably, then one would be inclined to put them in place, as they would serve a legitimate and influential purpose. But have such things been shown to be necessary or preventive of what they intend to stop? No? I don't they really have.
    States with stricter gun control tend to have higher overall violent crime.

    You could argue that the gun control is high BECAUSE of the state's violent nature. But regardless, high gun control does not correlate with low violent crime.

    All I know is that people need to stop looking at the gun violence statistics. It's a pointless statistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    States with stricter gun control tend to have higher overall violent crime.

    You could argue that the gun control is high BECAUSE of the state's violent nature. But regardless, high gun control does not correlate with low violent crime.

    All I know is that people need to stop looking at the gun violence statistics. It's a pointless statistic.
    No, you really can't argue that because the violent crime INCREASES in those places that have had the strict gun laws in place.

    Also, no, don't stop looking at the statistics unless you're just wanting to be uninformed. Places with lax gun laws have less violent crimes compared to places with strict gun laws.


    For example:
    http://rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Also, no, don't stop looking at the statistics unless you're just wanting to be uninformed. Places with lax gun laws have less violent crimes compared to places with strict gun laws.[/url]
    I think you misread what I said. I said that GUN violence statistics are pointless. The statistics that SHOULD be analyzed are OVERALL violence statistics.

    It doesn't matter how gun control affects gun violence. It matters how it affects overall violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    I don't mind the checks, but Obama will never settle for just that. Give a mouse a cookie, and it'll ask for a glass of milk.
    You need to get this through your head. This isn't just about Obama.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    You need to get this through your head. This isn't just about Obama.
    How do you figure it isn't? The man pretty much said he was going to crusade for higher gun restrictions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    How do you figure it isn't? The man pretty much said he was going to crusade for higher gun restrictions.
    Not the way you describe it. Engaging the public is the right way to go about it. The public strongly supports a number of gun reforms.

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    Bull$#@!. He is going after gun control, and its not going to happen. Both sides voted against the bill, and it'll happen, again and again.
    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.




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    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    Bull$#@!. He is going after gun control, and its not going to happen. Both sides voted against the bill, and it'll happen, again and again.
    yep. pretty mucn

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