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  1. #4301
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    Progressives seek to further regulate and remove firearms in society because they are good intentioned, but simply mistaken. They are having an overly emotional response to a topic they admittedly have very little real understanding about, due to simple disinterest (which can breed fear).

    This is as clear as day with the AWB as it stood before (under Clinton) and today when they tried to reinstate it again. They don't understand firearms and I don't think they fully understand people. It's a similar situation with the war on drugs, especially marijauna, when it comes to the GOP. Except in that case there is some serious money and big interests involved, because the War on Drugs is expensive. Money money money.

    Some would say that the progressive agenda for firearms is more insidious, and view it as a power grab for the federal government. I'm not convinced this is true, I just think they mean well and are naive. Certainly some bureaucrats in government probably think closer to along these lines, but I'm unconvinced that the average joe and the lefty congressmen are like this.

    Regardless, our nation has always had a very strong gun culture and our forefathers stressed the place of the gun in society as a defense of the people against invaders both foreign and domestic. And to also provide for ourselves if that is the need.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Progressives seek to further regulate and remove firearms in society because they are good intentioned, but simply mistaken. They are having an overly emotional response to a topic they admittedly have very little real understanding about, due to simple disinterest (which can breed fear).

    This is as clear as day with the AWB as it stood before (under Clinton) and today when they tried to reinstate it again. They don't understand firearms and I don't think they fully understand people. It's a similar situation with the war on drugs, especially marijauna, when it comes to the GOP. Except in that case there is some serious money and big interests involved, because the War on Drugs is expensive. Money money money.

    Some would say that the progressive agenda for firearms is more insidious, and view it as a power grab for the federal government. I'm not convinced this is true, I just think they mean well and are naive. Certainly some bureaucrats in government probably think closer to along these lines, but I'm unconvinced that the average joe and the lefty congressmen are like this.

    Regardless, our nation has always had a very strong gun culture and our forefathers stressed the place of the gun in society as a defense of the people against invaders both foreign and domestic. And to also provide for ourselves if that is the need.
    I agree with most of that but i don't think our forefathers foresaw these types of senseless crimes happening in our society today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I don't think they are exactly expressing hatred. There are some gun owners out there not against tougher background checks. Even if the bill had passed any law abiding citizen could still go out and legally purchase a gun.

    Because it's basically a military styled assault weapon.



    RPGs?...lol That will never happen legally. It's a military grade high explosive.
    Styled.. CORRECT. Meaning that they just LOOK like one. Many "hunting" rifles, ya no.. the legal "hunting" rifles, have as much potential or more than an AR15. Of course, they don't LOOK like a military weapon. smh




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Styled.. CORRECT. Meaning that they just LOOK like one. Many "hunting" rifles, ya no.. the legal "hunting" rifles, have as much potential or more than an AR15. Of course, they don't LOOK like a military weapon. smh
    Not true. The AR 15 was initially built by ArmaLite(AR) for the Armed Forces. Somehow Colt ended up with the rights to it and the military changed it's nomenclature to M-16. It's basically the same weapon except for a few modifications. It's more than just looking like one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    I don't lol. I'm just trying to figure out what the real issue is. I mean, you guys agree there should be "some" restriction right? I mean, it shouldn't be like those tribal areas where you can keep an RPG at home?

    If ARs only account for fraction of the crimes then why are they fighting about the ARs?
    IMHO, the only reason such weapons are targeted is because such weapons pose an existential threat to the government and banking organized crime syndicate. It's not because "X" amount of people are murdered using such weapons on a "Y" amount of time and "Z" place. Banning such weapons softens up the populace. If the populace isn't on equal footing with the government and banking organized crime syndicate, the government and banking organized crime syndicate are able to get away with whatever they please. All this political meandering about "thinking of the children" and "all those crazies" is bull$#@!. It always has been and always will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Not true. The AR 15 was initially built by ArmaLite(AR) for the Armed Forces. Somehow Colt ended up with the rights to it and the military changed it's nomenclature to M-16. It's basically the same weapon except for a few modifications. It's more than just looking like one.
    Dude, going back in the past is funny considering....

    The AR15 was a modification to the AR10 to support the .223 cartridge. That was back in the 1950's. It was also select fire and support full auto. So yes, the AR-15 commercial weapons LOOK like an M16. Internally and function wise they are very different. So again, they LOOK like a military weapon; and by far, aren't.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Dude, going back in the past is funny considering....

    The AR15 was a modification to the AR10 to support the .223 cartridge. That was back in the 1950's. It was also select fire and support full auto. So yes, the AR-15 commercial weapons LOOK like an M16. Internally and function wise they are very different. So again, they LOOK like a military weapon; and by far, aren't.
    No they aren't. AR 15 is just the civilian version of the M-16 plus or minus a few modifications/options. M16, M16A1,M16A2,M16A3,M16A4,M4, M4A1, M4A2 and M4A3 are all modeled on the AR15 platform. Can't speak for other branches but when the US Army buys anything they usually give it a Army/military designation. Hence why it's called M16. Canada and a few other countries carry the C7 which is based off our M-16 also made by Colt. All these weapons are basically AR 15s and they all basically function the same.

    I never said they actually are military weapons. If you take a Ford emblem and put it on a Chevy that's doesn't make it a Ford, it's still a Chevy.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 04-22-2013 at 17:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Styled.. CORRECT. Meaning that they just LOOK like one. Many "hunting" rifles, ya no.. the legal "hunting" rifles, have as much potential or more than an AR15. Of course, they don't LOOK like a military weapon. smh
    This!

    A legal hunting rifle can have very deadly potential as in comparison to an AR.
    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.




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    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    This!

    A legal hunting rifle can have very deadly potential as in comparison to an AR.
    Any rifle can be deadly. The AR15 was not designed for hunting....not the type of hunting you are thinking of.

  13. #4310
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    The one good thing about the Boston situation was that it helped show why guns are necessary. The suspects didn't have gun permits and yet they had weapons even more dangerous and were going through our backyards.

    If that's not a perfect advertisement for the second amendment, I don't know what is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    The one good thing about the Boston situation was that it helped show why guns are necessary. The suspects didn't have gun permits and yet they had weapons even more dangerous and were going through our backyards.

    If that's not a perfect advertisement for the second amendment, I don't know what is.
    Indeed they are. I don't think anyone ever doubted that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    No they aren't. AR 15 is just the civilian version of the M-16 plus or minus a few modifications/options. M16, M16A1,M16A2,M16A3,M16A4,M4, M4A1, M4A2 and M4A3 are all modeled on the AR15 platform. Can't speak for other branches but when the US Army buys anything they usually give it a Army/military designation. Hence why it's called M16. Canada and a few other countries carry the C7 which is based off our M-16 also made by Colt. All these weapons are basically AR 15s and they all basically function the same.

    I never said they actually are military weapons. If you take a Ford emblem and put it on a Chevy that's doesn't make it a Ford, it's still a Chevy.
    LOL. Too funny Sub.

    The trigger, bolt carrier, hammer, selector, and disconnector are all different between the M16 and Ar15. Any AR15 can't have a single one of those parts from an M16. It's against federal law. Also, the Ar15 doesn't have anything other than semi-auto compared to the select fire burst or full auto of the M16.

    Now, it isn't the same as the M16. It looks the same, sure. The only other thing they have common is they both fire bullets. (also upper/lower, but duh...)

    Basically you just said, "it's the same, but different".




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    LOL. Too funny Sub.

    The trigger, bolt carrier, hammer, selector, and disconnector are all different between the M16 and Ar15. Any AR15 can't have a single one of those parts from an M16. It's against federal law.

    Now, it isn't the same as the M16. It looks the same, sure. The only other thing they have common is they both fire bullets. (also upper/lower, but duh...)

    Basically you just said, "it's the same, but different".
    Thank you. You just proved my whole argument.

    Also, the Ar15 doesn't have anything other than semi-auto compared to the select fire burst or full auto of the M16.
    Which are called modifications like i mentioned. Still is basically the same weapon though.

    AR15 is a military styled weapon Fear. The weapon was first created to be used by the military and it still is. It's just under a different nomenclature and model. Fact. AR15 is basically a M16/M4 with modifications.






    It's kind of hard to refute this:

    No they aren't. AR 15 is just the civilian version of the M-16 plus or minus a few modifications/options. M16, M16A1,M16A2,M16A3,M16A4,M4, M4A1, M4A2 and M4A3 are all modeled on the AR15 platform.
    What about the C7 i mentioned?
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 04-22-2013 at 23:38.

  18. #4314
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    When the US military adopted the AR15 pattern weapons by Armalite they purchased the rights to it. This is why everybody under the sun can make AR15's, because there is no single license holder as far as I am aware. Colt and I believe a few others manufacture them for military use.

    Hell, even the Russians are making AR15's.



    FEAR is right, the AR10 came first and it was later reworked to chamber the smaller 5.56x45mm. The military assigns designations for the weaponry they use, regardless of the original manufacturer's title. M16, M4, XM8 (Experimental), M24, and so on.

    There are internal differences between the AR15 pattern rifle and the M16/M4 and it boils down to facilitating fully automatic and burst fire. That's it.

    Many AR15's you buy now are, to varying degrees, milspec otherwise. There are nuances between manufacturers. There's some great spread sheet of it somewhere.

    As an example, let's say Toyota makes a car and its called the Exceleron and for whatever reason the military wants to use it and Toyota is down with that. The military will take the basic design, purchase the rights to it (or whatever legal agreement with Toyota) have multiple groups manufacture it and redesign it to fit their various needs. They will call it the "M32 ACAR" or something. They just assign a military designation.

    This is more or less how it works with small arms, I'm not sure the analogy here actually holds in relation to vehicles (jets, tanks and so on) but I'd imagine it is similar.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 04-22-2013 at 23:26.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Thank you. You just proved my whole argument.



    Wrong again. It all depends on which m16.

    AR15 is a military styled weapon Fear. The weapon was first created to be used by the military and it still is is just under a different nomenclature and model. Fact. AR15 is basically a M6/M4 with modifications.

    It's kind of hard to refute this:
    Really.. it WAS a military style weapon in the 50's. The musket was a military style weapon in the 19th century...

    STYLE doesn't mean $#@!.

    Sub, what do you mean the AR15 is a military style weapon? What means "military style weapon"?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    When the US military adopted the AR15 pattern weapons by Armalite they purchased the rights to it. This is why everybody under the sun can make AR15's, because there is no single license holder as far as I am aware. Colt and I believe a few others manufacture them for military use.
    Actually it was Colt who bought the design.

    Hell, even the Russians are making AR15's.
    They are making variants, not AR15 themselves. Glad you mentioned that because it just goes prove what said. They all are all modeled on the AR15 platform.

    FEAR is right, the AR10 came first and it was later reworked to chamber the smaller 5.56x45mm. The military assigns designations for the weaponry they use, regardless of the original manufacturer's title. M16, M4, XM8 (Experimental), M24, and so on.
    yea, but that's something i already stated.

    There are internal differences between the AR15 pattern rifle and the M16/M4 and it boils down to facilitating fully automatic and burst fire. That's it.
    isn't that basically what i said already? Modifications?

    As an example, let's say Toyota makes a car and its called the Exceleron and for whatever reason the military wants to use it and Toyota is down with that. The military will take the basic design, purchase the rights to it (or whatever legal agreement with Toyota) have multiple groups manufacture it and redesign it to fit their various needs. They will call it the "M32 ACAR" or something. They just assign a military designation.

    This is more or less how it works with small arms, I'm not sure the analogy here actually holds in relation to vehicles (jets, tanks and so on) but I'd imagine it is similar.
    Or HUMVEE/HMMWV(military) H1/H2Hummer (civilian)

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    Right, Armalite sold it Colt. But when the military adopted it the design became more or less public domain. The title "AR15" is trademarked by colt, but the actual design itself isn't. This is clear as day given the identical copies being sold by dozens of weapons makers.

    The legality of all this is confusing to me. Because the so-called AR15 clones are literally just that. Carbon copy prints with tiny differences of the design using all of its features with a different label. If Colt owns the rights solely to the design, then I'm not sure how they haven't been able to sue all of their competitors. And it IS a very competitive market for that rifle.

    Apparently the patent expired? I guess that explains it then. I thought a company could find ways to insure that their patents never really ran out..

    Ugh.. The copyright and patent system in this country are so borked. Whatever.

    THE POINT IS the AR15 is the original 'blueprint' that the M16 (and co) are derived from. There are very few real differences between the designs (also depends on vendor).
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 04-23-2013 at 01:35.


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    The name "Ar-15" is trademarked, not the platform.




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    The design was patented at one point, but it apparently expired. "trademark" "copyright" "patented" total head ache man.


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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    The name "Ar-15" is trademarked, not the platform.
    Exactly. Even if it wasn't the military still wouldn't call it AR15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Exactly. Even if it wasn't the military still wouldn't call it AR15.
    Because it isn't an AR-15.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Because it isn't an AR-15.
    It basically is. We just call them M16/M4. I really don't see why that's so hard for you to understand.....lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    It basically is. We just call them M16/M4. I really don't see why that's so hard for you to understand.....lol
    So, it basically is, but it isn't? WE? I don't see why its hard for you to understand. I've never seen a legal full-auto AR-15.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    So, it basically is, but it isn't? WE? I don't see why its hard for you to understand.
    Then tell me where does the M16 come from?
    Why did you say this?:

    Any AR15 can't have a single one of those parts from an M16. It's against federal law.
    I've never seen a legal full-auto AR-15.
    I have. It's called m16.

    You can keep denying it but you have yet to refute the facts I gave to you regarding where M16 comes from.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 04-23-2013 at 02:27.

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    I never said the M16 didn't come from the AR-15. The military adopted it and changed what it is. It's an M16, NOT an AR15. Sorry.




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