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    I concur with those here who lament the 'constitutionality' of the Affordable Healthcare Act. Regardless of what the Supreme Court claims, I find the claim dubious at best.

    I'm not sold it will do anything but put our nation deeper in the hole while at the same time eroding away more rights to a government which has, repeatedly, shown that it cares very little for what is or is not illegal or constitutional when it wishes to impose its will (read: NSA).


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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Well, there was plenty of persuasion.. just not enough to swing that one vote in the SCOTUS. You have ONE party that voted it into law. You have 5 out of 9 SCJ vote it as constitutional. That means there is plenty of opposition. Hopefully if it breaks America, those that voted for it are dealt with next year.
    Clearly nothing very good, then. I'm asking for objectivity here. How is Obamacare unconstitutional?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Clearly nothing very good, then. I'm asking for objectivity here. How is Obamacare unconstitutional?
    I'd say just off the top of my head, penalizing people that don't want to have health care. Not much of a free country in that aspect is it?

    Here is a really good read about it:
    http://www.cato.org/policy-report/ma...constitutional

    I'll quote the conclusion:

    Because I find both the “uniqueness” and “economic decision” arguments unpersuasive, I conclude that the individual mandate seeks to regulate economic inactivity, which is the very opposite of economic activity. And because activity is required under the Commerce Clause, the individual mandate exceeds Congress’ commerce power, as it is understood, defined, and applied in the existing Supreme Court case law. Congress must operate within the bounds established by the Constitution. For the reasons stated, I must reluctantly conclude that Congress exceeded the bounds of its authority in passing the Act with the individual mandate. Because the individual mandate is unconstitutional and not severable, the entire Act must be declared void. This has been a difficult decision to reach, and I am aware that it will have indeterminable implications. At a time when there is virtually unanimous agreement that health care reform is needed in this country, it is hard to invalidate and strike down a statute titled “The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.”
    My conclusion in this case is based on an application of the Commerce Clause law as it exists pursuant to the Supreme Court’s current interpretation and definition. Only the Supreme Court (or a Constitutional amendment) can expand that.
    The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional.
    Last edited by F34R; 10-02-2013 at 13:51.




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    Land of the free my ass.

    Brave is the part I still agree with.

    Although I might be mistaken, inform me if I am, but doesn't Obamacare force companies to pay for insurance that includes birth control, even if the company is run by a Christian. Which would be a violation of the 1st Amendment, as it is forcing a religion to do something they are religiously opposed to.

    Although, I've heard of companies fighting Obamacare and winning, such as Hobby Lobby.
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    isn't car insurance also unconstitutional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    Just because something is the law of the land doesn't mean you lay down and stop fighting it. If that was the case.... we would have never gotten rid of slavery, Jim Crow laws, etc etc. If you go by MAJORITY RULES... then whites out number blacks, I guess we shouldn't give blacks any say in things or resist bad laws....right? Cuz you know....MAJORITY RULES.....right?


    As for not convincing people it was bad? As Rush Limbaugh says.... "You can't beat Santa Claus".

    Why does he say that? Cuz the Democrats promise the world. They always push free rent assistance, free utilities assistance, free food stamps, free money for college, free contraceptives, etc etc etc. Since about 45% of the country pays little to no federal income tax.... of course they are gonna vote in the gravy train democrats. When you ain't paying those taxes yourselves, it's easy to vote in the people who will raise the taxes of OTHER PEOPLE... i.e. NOT YOU.

    In credit card debt? No problem..... just file for bankruptcy and legally stiff your creditors. Democrats aren't about MAKING their own money, but finding ways of TAKING the money of others. In the case of a bankruptcy... you basically took the money of the creditors and pay pennies on the dollar back to them or if at all.....the democrat way.

    Look at Public Broadcasting (PBS) television. They have been getting public money to subsidize their liberal ideology network for about the last 45 years. And when we try to cut them off, the democrats and Obama tried to say Mitt Romney was trying to kill off POOR Big Bird. Nevermind the fact that Big Bird and his Muppet pals rake in tens of MILLIONS of dollars each year in merchandising...... making them part of the top 1%. But no no no... we must keep giving our hard earned taxes to help fund them despite the fact they bring in MILLIONS and could pay their own way.

    Do you feel like you were born the wrong sex? Do you want a sex change? Do you work for government? Well if you answered YES to all three... then you are in luck by voting for democrats. Cuz they are the ones that made laws forcing taxpayers to pay for a government worker's sex change operation. Cuz you know.... if there is a way for them to get something they want while making someone else pay for it....it's the democrats to the rescue.

    And with ObamaCare..... they have promised the world. So how did Obama get re-elected? By promising the world and vowing to make rich people to pay for most of it.

    Just cuz Obama was voted in by a majority doesn't mean the majority wanted ObamaCare. The polls have consistently shown over the years that the MAJORITY of people polled don't like the law and the numbers have only gotten worse for the law since.


    Oh and remember Sub-stance1..... you know the democrats blame the republicans for no immigration reform law...right? Even though they had the presidency and the majority in BOTH the house AND the Senate from 2008-2010...right? Meaning they could have made any immigration reform they wanted and the republicans would have been powerless to stop them.

    And did they pass a law? NOPE. Yet now that the republicans have the majority in the house, all of a sudden it's the republican's fault as to why we don't have a reform bill passed. And that's how they got Latinos to vote for Obama.... to blame it on the republicans and completely gloss over the fact that the democrats never passed one when they had ALL the power.
    Ok, I stop reading at you quoting Limbaugh. No need to go on from there....lol Instead of talking about how Obama got reelected, you should be asking why his opponent wasn't elected. Not his fault that Republicans screwed themselves.



    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    Land of the free my ass.

    Brave is the part I still agree with.
    Bro, you are free to go live anywhere you want. No one is forcing you live in the country.

    Although I might be mistaken, inform me if I am, but doesn't Obamacare force companies to pay for insurance that includes birth control, even if the company is run by a Christian. Which would be a violation of the 1st Amendment, as it is forcing a religion to do something they are religiously opposed to.

    Although, I've heard of companies fighting Obamacare and winning, such as Hobby Lobby.
    That's hilarious and not true.


    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Well, there was plenty of persuasion.. just not enough to swing that one vote in the SCOTUS. You have ONE party that voted it into law. You have 5 out of 9 SCJ vote it as constitutional. That means there is plenty of opposition. Hopefully if it breaks America, those that voted for it are dealt with next year.
    There is opposition in every bill and law. That's the way our gov works. People are for and against it.The law is still constitutional. It's no different than any other laws that are passed. People have a right to universal health care just like they have a right to bear arms.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 10-02-2013 at 15:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Bro, you are free to go live anywhere you want. No one is forcing you live in the country.

    That's hilarious and not true.
    Oh, so its free to up and move. Grow a $#@!ing brain Sub. It costs money, and lots of it to move to another country.

    Could you explain why its hilarious? And why is it not true?

    I know its a habit of democrats to simply say something is false, but try to at least explain it. smh
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    Oh, so its free to up and move. Grow a $#@!ing brain Sub. It costs money, and lots of it to move to another country.

    Could you explain why its hilarious? And why is it not true?

    I know its a habit of democrats to simply say something is false, but try to at least explain it. smh
    actually it does not cost that much



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    Land of the free is a perspective, in some respects, that's true but in others, there are many other countries out there that have far less to none: restrictions, limitations, invasion of privacy and registration (keeping tabs on people).

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    Oh, so its free to up and move. Grow a $#@!ing brain Sub. It costs money, and lots of it to move to another country.
    Yea, it does cost money. No one is stopping you from earning that money. You have the same opportunities that every other person has. You want it, make it happen.

    Could you explain why its hilarious? And why is it not true?

    I know its a habit of democrats to simply say something is false, but try to at least explain it. smh
    I'm no democrat...lol

    There is more to it than you make it seem. You can't deny or withhold health coverage because of a religious objection. The law is there to prevent discrimination. Two appeals court have upheld it and one has blocked it. Next will probably be the supreme court. I predict that the mandate will be upheld there too.

    .

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    Well medical history s no one else's business I would ave thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    What qualifies in your mind as a leader of technology (let's ignore that these companies are usually international anyway)? Because generally America is declining in innovation and funding less on scientific projects, or outright shutting some down. Sadly, we're not the scientific and technological leader of the world. You also state that our universities are better, yet fail to realize this is only due to our high amount of colleges here. The average is entirely unremarkable, and the free education for children and teenagers is completely abysmal. Don't forget the massive student debts that have expanded rapidly the past decades.

    The United States has a bloated and inefficient healthcare system that's actually rated lower in numerous comparisons involving wait times, surgeries and treatments, life expectancy, obesity, and patient opinions on how satisfied they were with the system and services. The World Health Organization rates us as about average among other modern industrialized nations. We have the highest expenditure for healthcare in the world, where care remains unavailable for those most unfortunate and in need of aid. Also, the companies and pharmaceuticals that control our medicine and insurance have us completely $#@!ed.

    We have the highest incarceration per capita rate in the world, many being in there for nonviolent drug-related crimes. We're also pretty damn good at wasting a lot of money on our military. We have one of the most disgusting disparities of wealth (which is getting worse) of any nation in the world. We have a collapsing infrastructure that's in serious need of maintenance and upgrades. We refuse to better ourselves in a multitude of ways (energy production, equal rights, education, imperial system, etc). And, finally, we're not that free with things such as the Patriot Act, NSA, and secret court rulings going on behind closed doors.

    So forgive me if I don't find your argument convincing. I'm still not seeing what puts this country on some golden throne. If anything, it seems like what America is no.1 at is being delusional. We can do better. We should do better. What we shouldn't do is tell ourselves that we're the best country when we're very clearly not.



    This isn't the truth. That's still purely an opinionated statement. I can't see any successful argument for this.

    Did I say we didn't have problems? I did not. But here you are pointing out all the problematic details. Forgetting to look at the big picture. The reason for most of these issues existing is that we have been neglecting things, and putting these issues off. This has been occurring for several decades. So now you see all theses issues now, after they have built up over several decades. If we would have paid more attention earlier, many of the problems you listed would not be an issue today.

    So are you just going to complain that X, Y, and Z are bad, and because we let them build up that there is nothing good/great about the USA anymore?

    If so, what is stopping you from leaving for so called greener pastures? If you don't like things and won't do anything to fix it, leave. There is no reason for you to stay, and you aren't acting to make things better.

    And don't deny there are many things we are still good/great at (even among what you listed). Even in the 21st century people use and depend on inventions/devices/services created or conceived in the USA.

    Another reason for many issues is that our leaders/politicians/representatives have been deviating from the goals and values our constitution in order to push their agenda, enrich themselves and legislate their form of morality. These people should have been kicked out of office long ago but for whatever reason were allowed to stay and drive the USA off course. We are seeing the cumulative effect of such actions today.


    Which brings me to your last sentence. If you can't see that a lot if these problems have to do with kicking the can down the road, than I don't know what to tell you. We didn't have to be ~17 trillion in debt if we fully heeded the advice given by H. Ross Perot ~20 years ago, but here we are today. Because people disregarded his advice, and kicked the can down the road. He gave us another warning recently, but it isn't looking like people will heed it this time either.

    Do you not take issue with paying into social security when the projections show it will go bankrupt long before you retire? Instead of fixing SS now, people just kicked the can down the road to younger people (lets say sub ~30). I can go on and on with examples.

    So what's it going to be, are you going to do something about it, or are you just going to sit on the sidelines complaining, and possibly running away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    isn't car insurance also unconstitutional.
    Owning a car is a voluntary choice. And you don't need insurance just because you own a car. You need it if you want to legally operate you vehicle on public roads.

    Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act/Obamacare will penalize every adult (18+) if they do not have insurance. So if you exist in the US, and are an adult, if you do not pay for health insurance (for whatever reason), you will be penalized. Just because of a new piece of legislation.

    Do you see the difference and why your comparison makes no sense?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Land of the free is a perspective, in some respects, that's true but in others, there are many other countries out there that have far less to none: restrictions, limitations, invasion of privacy and registration (keeping tabs on people).
    That you know or are aware of. Don't kid yourself, a lot of what the US does that has been criticized is done by many other countries. You just don't hear about it because the media focuses on other (and more domestically related) news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Owning a car is a voluntary choice. And you don't need insurance just because you own a car. You need it if you want to legally operate you vehicle on public roads.

    Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act/Obamacare will penalize every adult (18+) if they do not have insurance. So if you exist in the US, and are an adult, if you do not pay for health insurance (for whatever reason), you will be penalized. Just because of a new piece of legislation.

    Do you see the difference and why your comparison makes no sense?
    I get it, i wasn't making a point, i was curious if it were the same things. jeez man lol.

    That you know or are aware of. Don't kid yourself, a lot of what the US does that has been criticized is done by many other countries. You just don't hear about it because the media focuses on other (and more domestically related) news.
    not sure what you're saying here but are you telling me that is it not true what i just said? we may be the most monitored society on the planet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    I get it, i wasn't making a point, i was curious if it were the same things. jeez man lol.



    not sure what you're saying here but are you telling me that is it not true what i just said? we may be the most monitored society on the planet.
    Have you ever looked into how many cctv cameras there are in london (both public and private)?

    Or government monitoring of communications in China and India?

    Every country have some surveillance of its population, what differs is the extent it goes to and the scope of such surveillance.

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    UK has the most CCTV in Europe for sure. Not sure about world wide though. Might very well be the "winner" in that category too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Have you ever looked into how many cctv cameras there are in london (both public and private)?

    Or government monitoring of communications in China and India?

    Every country have some surveillance of its population, what differs is the extent it goes to and the scope of such surveillance.
    and that is exactly what I'm talking about. the extent to which the U.S. can and has gone is beyond others. not just the govt. but now regular companies and corporations are able to know practically every detail about your life that you put on the net (without your knowledge) and some actually say that they don't track them in so much detail but they do.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechcons...company-access

    basically if someone wanted to systematically $#@! you over, it wouldn't be that difficult. isn't that what the NSA did?

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    Also car insurance is state legislated, not a federal requirement. Even then, you don't pay a penalty if you don't have insurance, just because you don't have insurance. Completely different this Obamacare.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and that is exactly what I'm talking about. the extent to which the U.S. can and has gone is beyond others. not just the govt. but now regular companies and corporations are able to know practically every detail about your life that you put on the net (without your knowledge) and some actually say that they don't track them in so much detail but they do.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechcons...company-access

    basically if someone wanted to systematically $#@! you over, it wouldn't be that difficult. isn't that what the NSA did?
    Um those are websites that can be accessed anywhere, where you voluntarily input your information.

    And what evidence do you have that suggests no other countries have similar levels of monitoring as the US does?

    Like I said, what other countries do isn't talked about much, but that doesn't mean that they don't do what the US does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Um those are websites that can be accessed anywhere, where you voluntarily input your information.
    you didn't read my link then. there are companies that lie to you what they do with your info. Then there are companies that are lying to you who do admit that they take your info but tell you that it’s limited, when it’s not. That isn’t legal but it’s happening.
    And what evidence do you have that suggests no other countries have similar levels of monitoring as the US does?
    LOL. Really dude?
    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/09/...r-data-privacythe U.S. OWNS everything, all of the infrastructure of global online data. they can spy on anyone across the globe if they wanted and they do, they have control over all the traffic. Brazil is a “country” that now wants to try and gain its freedom from being spied on and they still can’t fully do it. The infrastructure isn’t there yet.
    Not to mention, NSA goes to these companies, the local police agency can do the same. Like I said, if for any reason you are deemed a “national threat”, they know exactly what you do. I have nothing to hide, you have nothing to hide so we tend not to care.
    It becomes a problem when there is a power that would abuse this. So we need to be at least aware of what’s going on right now. And it’s only going to get worse.
    Like I said, what other countries do isn't talked about much, but that doesn't mean that they don't do what the US does.
    umm no. they don’t have the power, infrastructure and resources. Of course they would also do it in a heartbeat but it’s not feasible. The U.S. has all of that and is doing it.
    Last edited by Omar; 10-02-2013 at 20:16. Reason: better link

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I'd say just off the top of my head, penalizing people that don't want to have health care. Not much of a free country in that aspect is it?
    What's the point in enforcing healthcare like that? Doesn't Obamacare offer default solutions anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Did I say we didn't have problems? I did not. But here you are pointing out all the problematic details. Forgetting to look at the big picture.
    I see the full picture. America has problems, some serious and others minor. My point was that we are not the greatest country in the world. Useless personal preference aside, what possible measure can we accurately evaluate ourselves as being such? Everything shows that we're declining as a nation, and we haven't been the best at anything note-worthy in some time. It's a lie me tell ourselves because we know it's not true.

    America could be the greatest country in the world, it has the resources to do it. It simply chooses not to be. It's much easier to be complacent instead.

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    How much is the difference in cost if you did get health insurance and didn't?
    Would having to pay the extra mean you get better care than if you paid for the insurance? I read that peoples insurances will not cover certain things or its only for a certain time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    What qualifies in your mind as a leader of technology (let's ignore that these companies are usually international anyway)? Because generally America is declining in innovation and funding less on scientific projects, or outright shutting some down. Sadly, we're not the scientific and technological leader of the world. You also state that our universities are better, yet fail to realize this is only due to our high amount of colleges here. The average is entirely unremarkable, and the free education for children and teenagers is completely abysmal. Don't forget the massive student debts that have expanded rapidly the past decades.

    The United States has a bloated and inefficient healthcare system that's actually rated lower in numerous comparisons involving wait times, surgeries and treatments, life expectancy, obesity, and patient opinions on how satisfied they were with the system and services. The World Health Organization rates us as about average among other modern industrialized nations. We have the highest expenditure for healthcare in the world, where care remains unavailable for those most unfortunate and in need of aid. Also, the companies and pharmaceuticals that control our medicine and insurance have us completely $#@!ed.

    We have the highest incarceration per capita rate in the world, many being in there for nonviolent drug-related crimes. We're also pretty damn good at wasting a lot of money on our military. We have one of the most disgusting disparities of wealth (which is getting worse) of any nation in the world. We have a collapsing infrastructure that's in serious need of maintenance and upgrades. We refuse to better ourselves in a multitude of ways (energy production, equal rights, education, imperial system, etc). And, finally, we're not that free with things such as the Patriot Act, NSA, and secret court rulings going on behind closed doors.

    So forgive me if I don't find your argument convincing. I'm still not seeing what puts this country on some golden throne. If anything, it seems like what America is no.1 at is being delusional. We can do better. We should do better. What we shouldn't do is tell ourselves that we're the best country when we're very clearly not.



    This isn't the truth. That's still purely an opinionated statement. I can't see any successful argument for this.

    Clearly you are a liberal. When you spouted off those things, I had an image of Obama reading them off the teleprompter.


    Quote Originally Posted by -Kwesnoth- View Post
    Land of the free my ass.

    Brave is the part I still agree with.

    Although I might be mistaken, inform me if I am, but doesn't Obamacare force companies to pay for insurance that includes birth control, even if the company is run by a Christian. Which would be a violation of the 1st Amendment, as it is forcing a religion to do something they are religiously opposed to.

    Although, I've heard of companies fighting Obamacare and winning, such as Hobby Lobby.

    It is true they are trying to force religious organizations to pay for insurance that cover contraceptives and ultimately abortion.

    Liberals always say they want the separation of church and state. They chant things like "Keep your religion out of my government!:.......YET.... they have no problem with government forcing it's beliefs onto religion. And religion is simply saying "Keep your government out of my religion!".



    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Ok, I stop reading at you quoting Limbaugh. No need to go on from there....lol Instead of talking about how Obama got reelected, you should be asking why his opponent wasn't elected. Not his fault that Republicans screwed themselves.





    Bro, you are free to go live anywhere you want. No one is forcing you live in the country.

    That's hilarious and not true.



    There is opposition in every bill and law. That's the way our gov works. People are for and against it.The law is still constitutional. It's no different than any other laws that are passed. People have a right to universal health care just like they have a right to bear arms.

    I'm a lukewarm fan of Rush Limbaugh, but what he said was true. You can't beat santa claus. It's like when you were a kid and you have two kids running for class president. One promises that if you vote for him, you will be invited to a FREE pool party with a hired DJ for music, filet mignon steak and lobster tails with all the fixings. The other guy says I don't have anything free to give you, I just promise I can do a better job.

    The guy that won? The guy that was offering FREE stuff. Nothing beats santa claus and the goodies he has for you.

    And when you have a nation of more TAKERS than MAKERS, the TAKERS are gonna vote in Democrats cuz they are promise to keep the free THIS and subsidized THAT....gravy train coming and make OTHER PEOPLE pay for it. It's why union thugs always vote in Democrats. They vote in the guys that are gonna be on the other side of the bargaining table so that they get exactly the things they want at bargaining time.

    As they say.... a Republican can NEVER out-promise a Democrat. The Democrat will ALWAYS offer more goodies. And that's how Obama won.... promise the world in freebies and have rich people foot the bill for it all.


    OH...... the RIGHT to bear arms is written into the U.S. Constitution, Universal health care IS NOT. Just because you THINK it's a right doesn't make it a right. Cuz if you wanna go down that road.... I could say I feel it is my RIGHT to have the government buy me a new car every year and pay off my house mortgage. It may make me feel good, but it's NOT a right.


    And another thing... people say "I stopped reading after...." when they can't argue against your points. I may want to stop reading after someone says something I don't like, but I'm at least gonna read it anyways to counter their points if I feel they are wrong and tell them why. What you did is called a cop-out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Yea, it does cost money. No one is stopping you from earning that money. You have the same opportunities that every other person has. You want it, make it happen.


    I'm no democrat...lol

    There is more to it than you make it seem. You can't deny or withhold health coverage because of a religious objection. The law is there to prevent discrimination. Two appeals court have upheld it and one has blocked it. Next will probably be the supreme court. I predict that the mandate will be upheld there too.

    .
    Forcing a religious organization to provide health issuance that offers free contraceptives and abortions, which is against church teachings....... is a violation of the separation of church and state. That's why they are suing.

    As for not being a Democrat? You may not be a Democrat, but you are clearly a liberal.... A.K.A.... the leach off others mindset.

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    so far, yes it does seem like that Obamacare is unconstitutional. but at the same time, hearing stories, it seems like it is helping people that needed care and couldn't.

    now i'm not going to get into the morality issue here because that's not my concern. is it worth saving a dying person? probably not. it's going to make their life a less of a living hell. that money could be put to better use.

    obamacare will inadvertently cause people to take more preventative measure, that's a good thing. it's like dental care. if you get those cleanings done, you likely won't need to get a filling, if you get those fillings done, you won't need to get root canals, if you get those root canals, you won't need to get implants or be without a tooth.

    republicans want people to stay without their teeth. and yea, that can work and you're not wasting money.

    both sides have their goods and bads i think. but prevention is the best case i think. it won't matter now but decades from now it will really make a big deal. because the people that are on govt. services for illnesses, would have prevented their issues for the most part...if it was preventable.

    but yes, in the end, people who are rich and healthy, are the ones paying for those that aren't. it is socialism. to a certain extent i support that. especially if you listen to people's stories. i get that this can also be a way to do propganda but until i hear horror stories of people that are affected negatively, to outweigh the positive stories i've heard, i will lean more towards obamacare.

    in obama-christ we believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    What's the point in enforcing healthcare like that? Doesn't Obamacare offer default solutions anyway?



    I see the full picture. America has problems, some serious and others minor. My point was that we are not the greatest country in the world. Useless personal preference aside, what possible measure can we accurately evaluate ourselves as being such? Everything shows that we're declining as a nation, and we haven't been the best at anything note-worthy in some time. It's a lie me tell ourselves because we know it's not true.

    America could be the greatest country in the world, it has the resources to do it. It simply chooses not to be. It's much easier to be complacent instead.
    there's nothing we can do about it because it's not due to people that the issues persist, it's the corporations. america is like the walmart of the world, you can't beat it, no matter what you do. the corporations are too large and powerful, for us to make any changes. everyone else is a puppet. everthing i learn about the corporations here, makes me think that this place is made for business and nothing else. everything is part of some profit scheme. if they can get away with it (even for a while), they will. imo everyone is on their own.

    i know i sound like a tin-foil hat guy and maybe i am but there's no better way to describe it. my duty is to warn everyone and keep their eyes peeled. ok now i am sounding like those guys, lol.
    Last edited by Omar; 10-02-2013 at 22:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    Clearly you are a liberal. When you spouted off those things, I had an image of Obama reading them off the teleprompter.
    Lambasting. Dismissal of argument. No counter-argument. Overlooking facts and statistics.

    Very convincing. Excellent use of the straw man and red herring fallacies.

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    Wow. Nancy Pelosi urges a no vote for Veteran benefits unless the entire Gov't gets it. It's a $#@!ing disgrace that she is even in Congress. What the hell does she care who gets funded, even with the Gov't shutdown, she still gets her check.




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