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  1. #5176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    the point was that just about everyone (even gandhi) has done horrible things in order to achieve their goals. it doesn't mean that they were born evil or even that their goal was not justified. their means to get there may not have been though.

    if you watch che's story, he was a very good man and wanted to help people without a single thing in return. he was also known as a murderer. and a terrorist by the US (lol US).

    now let's turn to washington, he wanted to free his people and he murdered innocent people while doing it, his ways of conducting warfare would be known as terrorist acts with today's defintion. and yet he is known as what nowadays?

    again, the point is we're missing (including Rapture) is that it's not that simple categorize people.

    if it is then the biggest tyrant of our times is George W. Bush for murdering more than a million innocent people in his wars. yet he is known as a hero to some. case in point.

    Doesn't matter, ANY ONE has their philosophy, I don't fall for any type of film seeing how he had good intentions. Some could say that Hitler also good intentions by exterminating millions of jewish people. Learning from the people that went through the history has a better understanding than those are just talking about it or trying visualize it. He was a murderer and terrorist. It's been that way with plenty of Hollywood Villians, we have our intellectuals but if you're going to use it for the wrong ideas. Then you'll be dealt with. A shame to those that bare his name and that damn T-shirt of his.

    As for George W Bush, he had his mistakes but if he was a tyrant then Obama is the Devil...

    Seriously, if our founding American fathers were to see the catastrophe in this country. They'd be erupting from their graves.
    Last edited by robvandam111; 02-14-2014 at 17:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnotGamer901 View Post
    Ok now I see your point. I agree. However, I think many people are ignorant enough to just accept the accepted grand scheme view while not researching and learning the other side, ALL sides.

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    I'm earning a minor in global history, and I've read enough on World War 2 and the Nazis to know what I'm saying on the subject. I'm not blindly accepting the usual account of "Oh noes Hitler was bad guys." I realize Hitler wasn't actually a monster -- he was a human being, someone who got up in the morning and put on their pants and socks like anyone else, who could love and feel sadness in their heart. In his time as Germany's leader did do good things, things that some people thought him a good man for.

    I'm just saying we can't overlook the fact that the blood of millions were still on his hands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robvandam111 View Post
    Doesn't matter, ANY ONE has their philosophy, I don't fall for any type of film seeing how he had good intentions. Some could say that Hitler also good intentions by exterminating millions of jewish people. Learning from the people that went through the history has a better understanding than those are just talking about it or trying visualize it. He was a murderer and terrorist. It's been that way with plenty of Hollywood Villians, we have our intellectuals but if you're going to use it for the wrong ideas. Then you'll be dealt with. A shame to those that b7are his name and that damn T-shirt of his.

    As for George W Bush, he had his mistakes but if he was a tyrant then Obama is the Devil...

    Seriously, if our founding American fathers were to see the catastrophe in this country. They'd be erupting from their graves.
    if you call che a terrorist then what do you call washington? actually, give me one difference between the two, since you are ironically mentioning the forefathers erupting over this.

    Obama may be a puppet just like Bush, but as of right now, Bush has more murders under his belt than Obama. as for taking people's liberties, i agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I'm earning a minor in global history, and I've read enough on World War 2 and the Nazis to know what I'm saying on the subject. I'm not blindly accepting the usual account of "Oh noes Hitler was bad guys." I realize Hitler wasn't actually a monster -- he was a human being, someone who got up in the morning and put on their pants and socks like anyone else, who could love and feel sadness in their heart. In his time as Germany's leader did do good things, things that some people thought him a good man for.

    I'm just saying we can't overlook the fact that the blood of millions were still on his hands.
    but that's not the point. you're looking at it in a retrospect. as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I
    never confused you for a Nazi/Hitler sympathizer or a defender of Hitler. I've
    been responding to your arguments, and only your arguments, not you as a person. Your core argument persists on the idea of perspectives. To some Hitlerwas a monster. To others, he was a man with righteous action. For some he was aman with honest intentions but horrible execution. Let's examine your previous
    statements:



    "I don't see him as a tyrant and I don't see the Germans as evil either.
    They wanted revenge for what happened during the first war so they came to kill
    everybody and everything that they thought contributed to that defeat."



    &



    "Well I don't think he was a tyrant because I think in his views
    everything he did was for the betterment of the German people."



    The issue is that individual perspective is irrelevant to the grand scheme of
    things. Let's look at the whole picture, not just the pixels. Hitler still
    killed millions of people. He was mass-murderer who threw the world into a
    global war for years. That's a certain example of a tyrant. Just because some
    people who were favored by his actions disagree doesn't make it not true.
    but that's just the problem. the same people that supported him while he was in power, disapproved of him after they lost the war.

    so it would have been your opinion vs theirs. like i was saying earlier, they
    lost so now we know him as a tyrant, had he won, we would just have a bunch of people agreeing to disagree.

    would we have even known what happened there if he had won? it isn't the first time a government had completely vanished actual documents to support otherwise. it is well documented that not many knew what was going on in the german-controlled areas (massacres) until after the war.

    what you cannot see, you cannot have an opinion about.
    Last edited by Omar; 02-14-2014 at 18:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I'm earning a minor in global history, and I've read enough on World War 2 and the Nazis to know what I'm saying on the subject. I'm not blindly accepting the usual account of "Oh noes Hitler was bad guys." I realize Hitler wasn't actually a monster -- he was a human being, someone who got up in the morning and put on their pants and socks like anyone else, who could love and feel sadness in their heart. In his time as Germany's leader did do good things, things that some people thought him a good man for.

    I'm just saying we can't overlook the fact that the blood of millions were still on his hands.
    I wasn't implying you were ignorant. I could tell u knew what u were talking about by the minute details u used a couple times. If you're getting a minor in history then I know u know what I'm trying to say

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Yay for raising the debt ceiling, yet again. ffs. If I can ever convince my wife to get the hell out of this $#@! hole.
    You seem to be forgetting my post from last year.

    http://www.psu.com/forums/showthread...41#post6213941

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    You seem to be forgetting my post from last year.

    http://www.psu.com/forums/showthread...41#post6213941
    Of course what you say is completely true but in my opinion the proportion of low information voters is too great

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnotGamer901 View Post
    Of course what you say is completely true but in my opinion the proportion of low information voters is too great

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    I'm going to post this quote from an up and coming guy in the region.

    Being from deep-blue Maryland I am frequently asked by friends and supporters why I stay, given its relentless one-party monopoly. It has become so one-sided here that at a recent event, one woman said, "I'm done with politics".

    Well, that's why I stay. I am trying to convince people that regardless of how seemingly hopeless the political fight is, there is no "I'm done". Let me give you an analogy I use often. People who say, "I'm done" assume politics is like a golf game. If it starts raining while you are out on the golf course then you can choose to be "done", with little harm done to yourself or anyone else. Unfortunately, politics is not a golf game, politics is a boxing match. If you try to say "I'm done" and quit, your opponent is still punching you and will not stop. Making it worse, when he is done with you he will grab the next closest person.

    In short, there is no "done" in politics, there is only the fight. Big-government extremists will never relent, they will never surrender and neither can you.

    It is simply not good enough to win elections and appeal to those in red states. We must begin to change hearts and minds and convince those, in places like Maryland, that pro- growth tax policies, free-market solutions, and choice in education are the path to a more prosperous tomorrow.

    We deserve better but getting better requires that we don't surrender to defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnotGamer901 View Post
    Well I don't think he was a tyrant because I think in his views everything he did was for the betterment of the German people. I have yet to read that for example Mao Zedong did what he did because he thought it was for the good of China. Might've missed it, but Yea.

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    Fair enough. I think though that history is too subjective and that Adolf very well may have been the best thing for Germany at that time. Regardless, World War II is America's, Britain's, France's and Russia's fault as well as all those nations that were on the winning side of the first World War. World War II is the consequence of national disrespect and backstabbing towards a nation that didn't deserve it in the first place and the tyranny displayed by the victors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    other than Hitler killing millions of innocent Jews, there really isn't much of a difference between him, Stalin or the British colonizations and the Spanish colonizations of the Americas.

    but you know what, i'm not thinking about the lives that were taken or the endless wars the divide and conquere strategy has caused over the century so never mind! there isn't much difference. it's just that Hitler gets brought up because WW2 is romantacized.
    There is no such thing as an innocent Jew in my opinion. Jews (and their Christian counterparts) created the central banking system of fiat currency which facilitated and continues to facilitate wars. Without fiat currency, nations would far less willing to wage war if not because of the human cost (because we know that we're just cannon fodder to our political and financial overlords) but because of the economic cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Fair enough. I think though that history is too subjective and that Adolf very well may have been the best thing for Germany at that time. Regardless, World War II is America's, Britain's, France's and Russia's fault as well as all those nations that were on the winning side of the first World War. World War II is the consequence of national disrespect and backstabbing towards a nation that didn't deserve it in the first place and the tyranny displayed by the victors.



    There is no such thing as an innocent Jew in my opinion. Jews (and their Christian counterparts) created the central banking system of fiat currency which facilitated and continues to facilitate wars. Without fiat currency, nations would far less willing to wage war if not because of the human cost (because we know that we're just cannon fodder to our political and financial overlords) but because of the economic cost.
    Did you really just say that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    There is no such thing as an innocent Jew in my opinion. Jews (and their Christian counterparts) created the central banking system of fiat currency which facilitated and continues to facilitate wars. Without fiat currency, nations would far less willing to wage war if not because of the human cost (because we know that we're just cannon fodder to our political and financial overlords) but because of the economic cost.
    you're right as far as Jews controlling much of the banking system and yes i'm sure they're involved just like the americans are involved and the saudis/qataris are involved and russians/chinese so on.

    i don't think of jews to be any different from muslims or christians or whatever. you have people reacting a certain way in certain situations and there are countless variables to think of. but to generalize it, i'm sure the jews that think that they deserve the constant establishment by demolishing palestinian homes are not thinking about it objectively. and the ones that are, are against it and we see them protest against israel.

    just like arabs that don't think objectively and have anger towards the jews for doing what they did. i'm sure there are the perpetrators in all of this and then there are those that are driven by anger and then there are the innocent that just want peace on both sides and oppose any sort of aggression.

    looking at it from a scientific point of view, i can't come to a conclusion that it's the fault of jews or the muslims. it's circumstances that brought the jews to palestine and take over it. and now it's circumstantial that they're at war with one another. the perpetrators are too few to judge any group entirely. and even those who do evil and cause these problems, in their mind would have justified it.

    i'm sure even hitler justified his actions and i'm positive his goal in life was likely not to murder millions of people. in his mind, the situation was driven to that point. anyway, before i babble too much. my point is that people who cause these things are evil, for sure but the people who are manipulated or the ones that may not see the other side, are just being typical human beings. it's a fault of ours. and that happens to all human beings so we can't blame one group or another.

    i understand why palestine was invaded, i also know why palestinians do not want to give up their struggle. the rest is humans being human. both things imo were justified in their own rights or in their own minds. they both did not have a choice but to do what they did. the followers did not have a choice but to follow.

    no one wants to see misery or sorrow. i firmly believe that. everyone feels that it's either us or them and that's the only reason they'd ever do something bad, knowingly. so again, it's the leaders who lead them here are the ones to blame, not the people who don't have a choice but to do what they should be doing.

    is your mind $#@!ed yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Fair enough. I think though that history is too subjective and that Adolf very well may have been the best thing for Germany at that time. Regardless, World War II is America's, Britain's, France's and Russia's fault as well as all those nations that were on the winning side of the first World War. World War II is the consequence of national disrespect and backstabbing towards a nation that didn't deserve it in the first place and the tyranny displayed by the victors.



    There is no such thing as an innocent Jew in my opinion. Jews (and their Christian counterparts) created the central banking system of fiat currency which facilitated and continues to facilitate wars. Without fiat currency, nations would far less willing to wage war if not because of the human cost (because we know that we're just cannon fodder to our political and financial overlords) but because of the economic cost.
    I thought I had already mentioned this but I think he was the best thing for Germany as well. He brought the people together, restored a sense of national pride, and of course kick started the economy due to saying the hell with the treaty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Did you really just say that?
    Yes sir. I sure did and I stand by that statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnotGamer901 View Post
    I thought I had already mentioned this but I think he was the best thing for Germany as well. He brought the people together, restored a sense of national pride, and of course kick started the economy due to saying the hell with the treaty.

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    You did but I was merely pointing out the other side of that equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Yes sir. I sure did and I stand by that statement.



    You did but I was merely pointing out the other side of that equation.
    Understood

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Yes sir. I sure did and I stand by that statement.
    but it's the Jews that are the perpetrators that are to blame, not the ones following them or are indifferent or ones that actually don't support them. which would be just about all of them. you're blaming an entire group for the work of the few.

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    OK I'm going to admit I'm not very knowleadgable on the Jews. I know why people disliked them in the WW2 era and why Hitler despised them, but I haven't researched them extensively. The easiest example being have the Jews really controlled the banks since the medieval ages?
    If you guys have any solid links that provide cold hard facts and not conspiratorial blabber please post

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    Looks like Obama nailed it on Russia during the debate with Romney. Russia is no threat to anyone, there's nothing to see here, move along.

    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


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    7.1 million have signed up for obama care:
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/01/politi...ignups-target/

    If people give good reviews about obama care when coverage starts, do you guys think people will think better of Obama, that's he's not so bad after all?

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    I don't see why it matters. In two more years he'll be out of office anyway.

    The people who do benefit from Obamacare will be on the poorer spectrum of income, and generally they're more democratic and in favor of Obama already. It'll influence some opinions, but not enough to mean anything. Anyone who delves into politics enough to really care will probably continue holding criticisms for Obama regardless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I don't see why it matters. In two more years he'll be out of office anyway.

    The people who do benefit from Obamacare will be on the poorer spectrum of income, and generally they're more democratic and in favor of Obama already. It'll influence some opinions, but not enough to mean anything. Anyone who delves into politics enough to really care will probably continue holding criticisms for Obama regardless.
    Thats true. if you didn't like him before i don't see much that would change your opinion of him. as long as the majority of the country votes with their party the crap will continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I don't see why it matters. In two more years he'll be out of office anyway.

    The people who do benefit from Obamacare will be on the poorer spectrum of income, and generally they're more democratic and in favor of Obama already. It'll influence some opinions, but not enough to mean anything. Anyone who delves into politics enough to really care will probably continue holding criticisms for Obama regardless.
    And for good reason. He's done nothing to really earn my respect. Just another tally on a wall, like his predecessors.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    And for good reason. He's done nothing to really earn my respect. Just another tally on a wall, like his predecessors.
    I was relatively middle-ground with my opinion on Obama for the first few years, up until I started hearing about the drone strikes his administration ordered on civilian targets, some of which were Americans (not implying American lives hold greater value than non-Americans). I know being the leader of a nation comes with its moments of destruction, where decisions have to be made that may destroy lives for the greater good. But circumstances where homes filled with a dozen innocent people are murdered by an air strike because of presumption or false information... I can't abide by that sort of stuff.

    That, and him doing nothing after the NSA scandal has been exposed. All we got was stationary PR talk and some empty promises in light of a Government entity being exposed for breaking US law. The NSA was till let go even after lying to Congress about its surveillance tactics. Why is this man in charge if he's going to hold no responsibility for what's going on under his watch?

    Obama is just more of the same $#@! we've been fed since JFK was assassinated.

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    He's a puppet, it's the people behind him that are the problem.

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    control through information and fear.

    'As an example, Inglis said if the government was concerned that terrorists were plotting to attack the New York Stock Exchange, the NSA could search for the term "New York Stock Exchange" among the conversations it collected in its targeting of foreigners overseas.'

    lol how stupid do they think we are? SHEESH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    7.1 million have signed up for obama care:
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/01/politi...ignups-target/

    If people give good reviews about obama care when coverage starts, do you guys think people will think better of Obama, that's he's not so bad after all?
    Taken from a commenter on another website:

    The devil is in the details my friend.

    Roughly 5.8M people were dropped from their insurance plans because of the ACA minimum requirements. They then had to buy insurance on the exchange. These are not newly insured people. If you do the math, that leaves only 1.2M newly insured people (out of 30M that they Democrats said are out there) that signed up via the exchange, and 75% of them were granted a subsidy.

    If that's not bad enough, the 7M number is only the number of people who added a plan to the "shopping cart", not the number who actually purchased and paid for insurance plan. Remember, Obama's administration claimed they don't have a way to know that real number.

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