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  1. #876
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    I know. I see mostly talk from Obama. BUT, he is the Democrat's man and that's my party. One more thing, he may not be as good as Hilary for the job, but who can do worse than Bush? The economy is recovering, the dow is up, and etc.

    I actually think Obama is a hypocrite. He says the Republicans are playing politics, yet he didn't want to ram health care through because he wanted some support from the Republicans. Bascially, he wants to get reelected. He was not looking out for our interest, but his and the Democrats. Not the people they serve.

    I don't think ANY of the Republican candidates are the answer, but neither is Obama. Obama is settling.

    I remember telling you guys I took American Government, that class really opened my eyes. Things are not as cut and dry as I thought it was when it comes to voting. Politics can be very complicated.

    Currently Playing: Lumines Electronic Symphony (Vita)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    It's simple, don't vote in incumbents. Disavow your parties and vote merely on the issues.. And on the actual record of the individual allegedly representing your interests when you go to the ballot box.

    It's time to do something about Washington.. They've been deserving this for so long now. Institute term limits, disallow public figures from engaging in private interactions with companies\holding stock, and limit the amount of offices one individual may have in his lifetime.

    Crush the head and the body dies.
    Destroying the parties won't work now either. Parties are such an institution now, they will fight hard to stay in power. They also serve a little use because it is easier to build coalition in a party than outside.

    Somebody get me a doctor, I ain't feelin' ill ...But I ain't feelin' this at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Just.... No. Don't drink the kool-aid black wolf. Obama is and was anything but bipartisan. He's no hero.

    @Matrix

    Well duh lol.
    Kind of nullifies your post then. poor voters=poor candidates running for office=poor candidate elected to office.

    The system had its first major failure in 2000, then again in 08. 2012 doesn't seem likely to change the direction we are heading in. Who knows what we will get in 2016.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Kind of nullifies your post then. poor voters=poor candidates running for office=poor candidate elected to office.

    The system had its first major failure in 2000, then again in 08. 2012 doesn't seem likely to change the direction we are heading in. Who knows what we will get in 2016.
    What I said was directed towards voters in the first place Matrix. Trying to inspire readers on this thread to change their voting habits.

    I believe in the future we make here and now. I'd rather not resign myself to a dour future without a fight.

    @btbam

    Of course. But them fighting hard matters little to me, I still believe they should be wiped. At the very least a strong third party would be nice. We need to reset things.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 12-21-2011 at 19:50.


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    This is what I don't get. Why do people that stick to either democrats or republicans, lets say democrats since obama is a dem. Even though the guy completely blows in terms of ideas and following through and keeps on spending more money, why do people still like this guy?

    It's obvious even from a democrats side that he sucks completely, yet certain people that are democrats still say "well, he isn't good, but he is a democrat". What ever happened to voting for the person that makes sense. I swear, more then half of the people that are democrats would vote for the $#@!tiest person, just because he is a democrat. o.O it does boggle me a bit and what that shows is the lack of any rational thinking or even up to the point of common sense.

    Personally, I just vote for the guy that I seem to like, dem, rep, independent, etc etc. doesn't matter to me, if I think he will do a good job in the categories he discusses, I will vote for him. yet you have these people that lean all the way to one side regardless of it makes any sense even if it's just bad to begin with, they will still lean to that one side, just for the sake of doing it. ugh.

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    Because they've been raised to tow the party line, almost religiously. Because he's the same skin color as them. Etc.


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    Then sometimes they say you should just vote for the sake of voting because it's our right to vote. But If I don't like anyone running, I wont vote at all. lol that bugs people sometimes, I don't know why it bugs some people, but it does.

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    I'm not speaking for anyone else who is a democrat, but I voted for Obama as a democrat because the democratic party favors how I feel on issues. Yes, there are some Republican or Conservatives views I agree with, but most of my thoughts on the issues such as abortion, drilling for oil, and etc are with the Democratic party. You can say I lack common sense or whatever, but that's my belief. I have a right to a belief just as much as you do.

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    The Democratic Party is not an ideology.. It's a political group. Are you a liberal? A populist? A socialist? Libertarian? Conservative?

    Those personal belief systems are what people structure their voting habits off of.. One way or another. The parties don't matter, those matter.

    Yes, you have a right to believe whatever you want. But that doesn't mean anybody has to respect that opinion on an intellectual level. If you cannot defend your beliefs and justify them, then you should sit down and probably reflect on why you buy into them. On a similar note, people who believe in something 'just because' are always the easiest to lead by the nose and exploit. Don't be a sheep.

    If you believe in something take a stand. Fight for it. Use reason to defend it.

    By the way, as economic hardships intensify and valuable resources (like petroleum) become scarce niche special interest groups, such as environmentalists, will become irrelevant. Not drilling for oil on our territory is simply absurd... And as prices go up and people start feeling that pain at the gas pump the silent majority will rise up and smash the anti-drilling rhetoric infesting Washington.

    Fluffy ideals are all good and neat so long as you can afford to entertain them. Once that passes they must, and will, be discarded. It was always about the vote buying and pandering anyway with the party officials, regardless of what they might feel on a personal level.

    Their survival as careerist politicians will always come first.


    One more thing, he may not be as good as Hilary for the job, but who can do worse than Bush? The economy is recovering, the dow is up, and etc.



    That's a really poor position. By what metric do you measure the success and failures of Obama relative to Bush? You're just jumping on the bandwagon of "lololol Bush sucks if I compare my guy to him people will like my position more" ~ No.

    Bush did much that I don't agree with, helping along the Patriot Act, invading Iraq (whole other tangent..).. But Obama has done stuff just as terrible. His healthcare plan is a joke, he's constantly bypassing the constitutional process in order to get the stuff he wants done (bypassing\ignoring the courts, etc), pushing partisan bull$#@! and then proclaiming that it was partisan politics which doomed the supercommittee...

    As for the economy recovering, Obama largely had jack all to do with that. Sure he gets to take credit now that we're experiencing very modest growth (and the future forecast is constantly being downgraded) but don't fool yourself. We're going to be in this state for some 10-15 years. His stimulus plans were ineffective (big surprise), other initiatives he signed off on were laughable (cash for clunkers)...

    I mean hell, he even got embroiled in a big of a constitutional battle royale because he dismissed the prevailing legal definitions of 'an act of war' just so he could justify military action in Libya.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 12-21-2011 at 22:57.


  10. #885
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    The Democratic Party is not an ideology.. It's a political group. Are you a liberal? A populist? A socialist? Libertarian? Conservative?
    I like to think of myself as a liberal. And yes, that's fine if he doesn't agree or respect my opinion. I know without a doubt he's not going to agree with everything I believe or think.

    As for "fluffy ideas" like not drilling for oil, I see it differently. To put it short, what we do to the enviroment will not only affect animals, but will affect us as well. If we were to start drilling everywhere, who knows what it could mess up and unbalance?

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  11. #886
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    I like to think of myself as a liberal. And yes, that's fine if he doesn't agree or respect my opinion. I know without a doubt he's not going to agree with everything I believe or think.

    As for "fluffy ideas" like not drilling for oil, I see it differently. To put it short, what we do to the enviroment will not only affect animals, but will affect us as well. If we were to start drilling everywhere, who knows what it could mess up and unbalance?
    Um.. It would have very little real impact if we took the proper measures and didn't rush it. That's just naive imo, you think the Russians, Saudi's (and the rest of OPEC) give a rats @$$ about any of this? They love the fact that the West is so concerned and sensitive to this stuff because they get to drill up all the oil, sell it to us at prices they determine and punish us when we do something they don't like.

    All this trepidation and fear over drilling for oil. It's almost as bad as the nonsensical terror surrounding nuclear energy.

    If that is truly your belief, than we you might as well get on your knees and submit yourself to foreign powers. Because they will dominate us and everyone else through control of the most vital resource this planet has ever seen.

    Also, researching in alternative energy sources requires exorbitant amount of petrol. If we do not have the infrastructure and supply in place to fund these energy intensive research programs we're never going to become energy independent or find an alternative.

    The nations that are hemorraging oil will probably outpace us in that field and once they've decided that oil should be replaced the will sell us that technology and control it's supply.. Just like with oil.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 12-21-2011 at 23:10.


  12. #887
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Because they've been raised to tow the party line, almost religiously. Because he's the same skin color as them. Etc.
    pfffffft still spouting this nonsense I see...



    must have had a lot of black candidates

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdoggy View Post
    Then sometimes they say you should just vote for the sake of voting because it's our right to vote. But If I don't like anyone running, I wont vote at all. lol that bugs people sometimes, I don't know why it bugs some people, but it does.
    get where you are coming from, but I still go for the lesser of 2 evils...

    Sarah Palin or John Edwards... easy choice for me

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    I'm not speaking for anyone else who is a democrat, but I voted for Obama as a democrat because the democratic party favors how I feel on issues. Yes, there are some Republican or Conservatives views I agree with, but most of my thoughts on the issues such as abortion, drilling for oil, and etc are with the Democratic party. You can say I lack common sense or whatever, but that's my belief. I have a right to a belief just as much as you do.
    yes you do. and your vote counts just as much as the next guy.

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    -shrugs- I said 'etc' and so forth. I personally know a ton of african american friends who voted (for the first time) for Obama simply because of racial reasons.

    Just throwing that out there, I hardly care one way or another.

    There are many factors which may impel an individual to tow the party line. Many social pressures involved.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DayWalker View Post
    pfffffft still spouting this nonsense I see...



    must have had a lot of black candidates



    get where you are coming from, but I still go for the lesser of 2 evils...

    Sarah Palin or John Edwards... easy choice for me



    yes you do. and your vote counts just as much as the next guy.
    Where is 2008 on that graph?

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    Good reading Daywalker:

    http://takingnote.tcf.org/2008/11/digging-into-th.html

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/04/exit.polls/

    http://www.economist.com/node/125737...73724&fsrc=rss


    Enjoy your 94-96% of voting blacks casting their ballot for Obama during the 2008 election. Honestly this is not surprising to me, nor should it be for anyone else.

    I have no idea why people try to fight this.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 12-22-2011 at 01:19.


  16. #891
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Where is 2008 on that graph?
    not statistically different from previous elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I personally know a ton of african american friends who voted (for the first time) for Obama simply because of racial reasons.
    oh well in that case- I stand corrected...
    Last edited by DayWalker; 12-22-2011 at 01:17.

    By Theft
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    See the above lol. Plenty of evidence showing that blacks overwhelmingly voted for Obama.

    Again, why would you argue against this? Illogical.

    Race, among many other variables, was a factor. Nothing wrong with saying that, just an observation.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 12-22-2011 at 01:36.


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    yeah.... annnnnnd...I posted a chart that shows that blacks have overwhelmingly supported democrats for the last half century....

    Bill Clinton- white, kinda a bad ass.... 92%

    Al Gore- white, huge lame ass... 88%

    Not arguing that it was not a factor... but the "evidence" you're presenting hardly supports it.

    Especially given the popularity of the last administrations... the economy... the VP on the GOP ticket...

    Obama had a landslide victory (by election standards)... a 3% bump among African-Americans voters isn't even an outlier
    Last edited by DayWalker; 12-22-2011 at 01:44.

    By Theft
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    Trust me, it's sad

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    Quote Originally Posted by DayWalker View Post
    yeah.... annnnnnd...I posted a chart that shows that blacks have overwhelmingly supported democrats for the last half century....

    Bill Clinton- white, kinda a bad ass.... 92%

    Al Gore- white, huge lame ass... 88%

    Not arguing that it was not a factor... but the "evidence" you're presenting hardly supports it.

    Especially given the popularity of the last administrations... the economy... the VP on the GOP ticket...

    Obama had a landslide victory (by election standards)... a 3% bump among African-Americans voters isn't even an outlier
    The point is 96% of blacks voted for obama in 2008. That is much higher than for clinton, gore or probably any other candidate in history.

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15297.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    The point is 96% of blacks voted for obama in 2008. That is much higher than for clinton, gore or probably any other candidate in history.

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15297.html
    I understand that. I am arguing the "much higher" part of the argument.

    I am saying that a 3% bump from previous elections... can hardly be attributed to race preference.

    Again- citing discontent with Bush, the economy, and GOP ticket.

    If anything it shows how little influence race had- as far as african-americans go...


    ========================

    I'll help you guys out...

    you would have to show data that shows that blacks that wouldn't have voted dem, or wouldn't have voted at all, voted soley b/c of race ID.

    that's a lot to prove... and certainyl takes more that pointing at the 96% stat.
    Last edited by DayWalker; 12-22-2011 at 01:57.

    By Theft
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  21. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayWalker View Post
    I understand that. I am arguing the "much higher" part of the argument.

    I am saying that a 3% bump from previous elections... can hardly be attributed to race preference.

    Again- citing discontent with Bush, the economy, and GOP ticket.

    If anything it shows how little influence race had- as far as african-americans go...


    ========================

    I'll help you guys out...

    you would have to show data that shows that blacks that wouldn't have voted dem, or wouldn't have voted at all, voted soley b/c of race ID.

    that's a lot to prove... and certainyl takes more that pointing at the 96% stat.
    A 3% bump from previous elections is pretty significant in this case, considering how low voter turnout is in the US.

    You not going to find any data better than that that explicitly states that eligible blacks voters either voted more so in 2008 that never voted before or that they would have voted for an R candidate had it not been for obama.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    You not going to find any data better than that that explicitly states that illegible blacks voters either voted more so in 2008 that never voted before or that they would have voted for an R candidate had it not been for obama.
    no you're probably not

    By Theft
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    Trust me, it's sad

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    You can cite all you want statisitics about black voters, which i think are accurate, but that actually assumes that black voters actually vote...fact is, they don't come out in large enouh numbers and represent a large minority of the population.

    Somebody get me a doctor, I ain't feelin' ill ...But I ain't feelin' this at all...

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    still chuggin along...Obama camp is probably happy to see continued signs of slow improvement...


    and Santorum? seriously GOP?

    anybody but Mittens seems to be the motto of the primary... doesn't seem to be a viable alternative though...

    By Theft
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    Trust me, it's sad

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    Well, I've been reading up on Ron Paul lately and he seems like our best bet for America right now. I've lost faith in Obama and don't really care much for the other Republican party candidates (apart from Ron Paul). Don't even get me started on Rick Perry; the guy is a $#@!ing moron.

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