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  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    2) I'm here to learn. If anyone has any *proof* that Blu-ray can in any way improve the gameplay experience over DVD-9, I'd love to see it... but so far, there's no proof at all... in fact, there's proof to the contrary.
    You discount when the Lair developers say they're using the space, you discounted what I said about the extra space being able to reduce load times by permitting redundant copies of textures and etc. to avoid seek times during level loads..

    Why should anyone think you'll pay attention to any other evidence or argument for a benefit from Blu-Ray?

    3) Until someone can bring some valid evidence that Blu-ray is needed for games, or adds some feature or improvement to games, the fact remains that PS3 gamers are paying at least 200$ more for a system *just* so they won't have to swap a disk...


    $100, again. Thanks for playing.

  2. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonabbey View Post
    [/B]
    $100, again. Thanks for playing.
    Its not that he doesn't get it, its just that his argument loses weight if he tells the truth.

  3. #328
    2Tfps
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    About the need of BluRay: Like the b**ch said, "If you want more, bigger is in needed"

    XB360 to DVD: No, you are enough! I promise! Do not feel your selfesteem go down! <joke in half-half)

    (choc-tee)

  4. #329
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    Guys:

    I have the best argument for why Blu-Ray is useful.

    When i buy my PS3.

    I have a Blu-Ray player.

    Whether its useful for gaming? Many devs have said it is, virtually none have said it isn't who are developing.

    If you think you can make a game with the content of Resistance fit on one DVD, go ahead Darkfalz.

    Oh and the best looking next-gen game is F1. O_O

  5. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by CompGeek View Post
    CD -> DVD = 6x increase in space (12x to DVD-9)
    DVD-9 -> BD = 2.5x increase in space.

    And multi-disc inst a bad thing, I actuall forgot that RE4 was multi-disc on gamecube! If the game is fun, no one cares. It's not worth $200 to have the game on one disc. End of story.
    First DVD9 to BD is a 5x increase in space. You forgot that dual layer is a standard part of the BD spec so all players are expected to support dual layer discs from the start. 50GB is thus the capacity to be considered. For all practical purposes, DVDs are considered to be dual layer at this point but I'm pretty sure it wasn't standard/required at some point.

    Multidisc isn't much of bad of a thing at all. But when developers have more room without having to think of "oh what is this going to cost" it can certain bring benefits. This is what the "usual suspects" are so afraid of and can never admit to. Why don't go guys fight for floppy disck or CD-ROM technology still? Oh yeah, I forgot your system does have support for DVD9 so you might as well say "that's the minimum and maximum requirement this generation and nothing more." Yeah...mmmhmmm, continue on.

    Also, $200 is most definitely not the cost to consumer for the blu-ray drive in the PS3. Blu-ray benefits Sony in the long run. They'd be willing to pay(subsidize) at least half cost to them, if not more, of the BD drive considering the amount of money they stand to gain by making blu-ray the next generation movie format standard and their willingness to sell as many players as possible to expand the market for the movies. They are putting their eggs into the basket, and thats a benefit consumers are getting from it. Sony isn't just taking a hit to only gain from gaming software, they also stand to gain from the movie industry with blu-ray which makes them willing to front more cash on behalf of the consumer. If Sony put a DVD9 drive in the PS3, they wouldn't be paying much of it for the consumer because that is a direct charge to them on something that isn't even an investment. It doesn't have any future returns for them as a business so why would they?

    So your story - though ended - is fictional.

    And to Darkfalz -
    I recently saw some screenshots of those notorious tiny games with "awesome graphics." It was intersting seeing how ugly or horridly simple the "high level of detail" were on those shots. Maybe you should realize that level of detail at this point in 3D graphics is mostly courtesy of shader effects and not textures. So you can make a really nice looking bathroom, or an obscure sci-fi room with basic color/textured elements that repeat themselves easily and call it a game with great graphics. But attempt to put that same level of detail with the assett diversity requires of a real game, and that whole "70%" or whatever number compression ratios get blown out of the water. They just can't happen.

    What they did for those games was make a poster child for compression technology. It's wonderful that you can talk of the possibility of making that poster child. But developers realize that the poster child of compression technology something that no one can turn into an actual market-competitve game. Developers spent a lot of time making things look a little different or slightly better even if the end consumer might not have noticed the difference. It's easy to look at those 1MB games and say "wow this looks great." But cosider the game first, as a real game, and then let's see how good people think it is or how much people think they should pay up for it.

    Also, you act like textures are the only thing that take up room on a disc. Compression technology exists for other forms of media, but you can't deny that higher quality media takes up more room. As compression methods get "better" the amount of data lost grows too. But of course we have you to wisely pull up the marketing phrases that say "lossless" or "virtually lossless" which is very subjective. DivX was supposed be to DVD-quality, but the artfacts that show up on the screen from a 700MB Divx encoded movie are horrible when put up against a lower compression ratio MPEG2 DVD movie. Compression loses data unless the data is obscenely repetitive. That's just a fact of computing.

    I could show you a picture of a landscape with and without compression. Bitmap version vs jpeg. Running on your monitor, you'll see the same image and feel like the jpeg is perfectly fine and be astounded that it's probably less than a quarter of the size of the bitmap. But put that on your 40inch+ 720p or 1080p TV, and the difference becomes obvious. Sure you can decide to compress the jpeg image less to make it look "just as good" as the bitmap even on the big screen, but then the compression ratios drop greatly before the difference becomes harder to distinguish.

    -Sig by Svetlana

  6. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    Saying "Blu-Ray is needed because of Resistance!" is about as accurate as saying you need a 25 gallon gas tank in a Civic to drive across the state of California.

    It's just not true.

    While you might be able to drive across california without stopping if you had a 25 gallon gas tank, it wouldn't change that fact that those with a 10 gallon gas tank could make the trip just as well - they just might have to stop for gas.

    Blu-ray is definitively *not* needed for games. It's a mild convenience, nothing more.
    Really? Why aren't we using CD's for games then? I mean.....more storage is convenience, nothing more eh? How does compression add more to gameplay?

  7. #332
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    Well, this thread is a toilet bowl of pitiful arguments.

    You guys love your blue ray, good for you. I dont want it, I dont want to pay for it. The argument can end here. You keep blue ray, I'll keep $100. Good day.
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  8. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by CompGeek View Post
    Well, this thread is a toilet bowl of pitiful arguments.

    You guys love your blue ray, good for you. I dont want it, I dont want to pay for it. The argument can end here. You keep blue ray, I'll keep $100. Good day.
    LOOK!!! He said $100!!!! Progress!!!

    there's hope for you afterall!!!

  9. #334
    Darkfalz
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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    Really? Why aren't we using CD's for games then? I mean.....more storage is convenience, nothing more eh? How does compression add more to gameplay?
    Why stop at Blu-ray? Why not use holographic disks? I mean, if more storage is such a necessity, why stop at only 50-200 gigs?

  10. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    Why stop at Blu-ray? Why not use holographic disks? I mean, if more storage is such a necessity, why stop at only 50-200 gigs?
    Because no one can afford them

  11. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jap Attack View Post
    Because no one can afford them
    Says who? How can *you* judge who can and can't afford what?

  12. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    Says who? How can *you* judge who can and can't afford what?
    The technology isn't even available to the public yet and probably won't be until another 4-5 years. Why don't you do some f***** research.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

    A single disc costs $120.
    The Reader costs $15000.

    By 2010 the disc price estimate will only go down by $20, so Darkfalz, Its not F***** affordable.

  13. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jap Attack View Post
    The technology isn't even available to the public yet and probably won't be until another 4-5 years. Why don't you do some f***** research.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

    A single disc costs $120.
    Looks like Jap Attack *judged* correctly.

  14. #339
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    that post on that blog its really old. Most of us already know this.There is no need to ad fuel to the fire, even more now that Japjap is online "ms defence power up"lol sorry had to do it.

  15. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    Really? Why aren't we using CD's for games then? I mean.....more storage is convenience, nothing more eh? How does compression add more to gameplay?
    Because DVD-ROM drives and CD-ROM drives cost exactly the same to make these days. They're both about $20.
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  16. #341
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    Anyone who doesn't think it was a wise move for Sony to adopt BluRay as their disc medium is fooling themselves.

    Here's what I think, feel free to debate me on any of these points:


    On the Need for BluRay


    Here's what the dev (Ted Price, Insomniac) said in his blog:
    Consider that even with compression, each of our “levels” (or loaded areas) has more than 300 megs of unique data. And keep in mind that we’re also streaming data during level playthroughs. It doesn't take too much level data before you've gone past what can be stored on a dual-layer DVD. And between single player and multiplayer we have a lot of level data (over 40 different large loaded areas) – yes, more than will fit on a dual layer DVD.
    So 300x40= 12000 megs or over 12 gigs of level data alone. Factor in music, movies, voice and other elements and you easily get into the 20 gig range.

    Compare this to the situation with DVD:
    So what we see from the information posted is that there are at least six games that are above six gigs for the 360. These are NFS:Underground, King Kong, DOA4, MLB 2k6, Tomb Raider, and Battlefield 2. These games all just barely fit onto a 360 DVD given it's 7 gig limit. So I don't know how Japjap and mynd can say that DVD isn't being a constraint. Is it because all the games aren't 6.99999 gigs yet? Most likely the devs couldn't think of any additional content that they could shoehorn into the half gig they had left. Also this is the first year of the console's release. Xbox games grew 77% in size from launch to four years later. The 360 doesn't have that room to grow and neither would the Ps3 if Sony hadn't wisely chosen to utilize BluRay.


    On the Ps3 Hard Drive Caching

    The average seek time for a 2x BD-Rom is 210ms, as given here. The average seek time for the 360's 12x drive is 115ms, as given here. Not a huge deal or anything but "3 times slower" is a bit of an exaggeration. 1.82608696 times slower may be slightly more accurate. This may not even be that much of an issue at all.

    Think about the advantages of disc caching (from the Ps3 developer's perspective.) Yes, a hard drive only offers slightly higher transfer rates but what it's real strength is, is extremely, extremely fast seek times. This page gives the average seek time for the 360 SATA HDD as a whoppin' 13ms! That makes it easy to imagine that developer's may be using the SATA HDD on the Ps3 as a cache for data that requires a high seek time, possibly negating the poor CLV seek times from the BDROM.

    So the information I've uncovered leads me to believe that in practice we may be seeing Ps3 games loading up faster than 360 games due to a combination of disc caching, high, constant, transfer rates from CLV, and intelligent disc layouts.

    And BTW...
    PS3 Load Times

    I had a chance to sit down with a group of developers to talk about Warhawk during E3. Most of the discussion about the game itself was kinda boring, but I perked up when they started talking about load times.

    According to the developers, a chunk of Warhawk loads onto the Playstation 3's harddrive the first time you go to play the game. This cuts down dramatically on the load times, they said. They said they weren't sure yet whether Sony would allow them to keep the content on the harddrive or if they would have to reload it everytime the system was rebooted.

    This would explain the whole two to three second load times that Sony is claiming, but I don't think I'd want my 10 pound PS3 all loaded up with games I've played once a year ago, like some glorified Memory Card.
    So yeah, the standard HDD is helping load times.
    This is taken from here.


    On BluRay Cost

    Most BluRay movies are $5-$8 dollars more than their DVD counterparts. You'll only pay a high premium for new releases. This premium I think is attributed more to luxury of having movie in HD than it is to higher manufacturing costs. Even HD-DVD with its lower manufacturing costs still commands a premium over DVD on new releases. Recently we've heard that BluRay yields are in the 85% range for single layer discs and 80% range for double layer as opposed to 90-95% yields on DVDs. Not bad yields for a fledgling format. All this leads me to believe we'll see $60 prices for Ps3 games.


    On BluRay as a Movie Format

    What can you do with HD-DVD that you can't on BluRay? And before you say it, VC-1 is coming to BluRay releases soon and it is fully supported by the BluRay specs.

    As I said before, BluRay will utilize VC-1 compression soon, rendering any differences in video quality a thing of the past.
    BluRay can much hold more video and data, that's why a new format was needed in the first place, and that's why BluRay is the better format.

    BTW any hardware or software sales of the HD-DVD format are miniscule compared to the numbers BluRay will assuredly enjoy after the Ps3's launch. HD-DVD has lost, it just takes a while for that to sink in.


    On BluRay's Adoption as the Next-Gen Standard

    Taken from this article.

    Number of HD households grows, but service still only available in a few countries

    Aug 21, 2006 7:26 PM

    The number of households watching HDTV programming continues to rise rapidly, according to market research firm In-Stat.

    Households with HDTV service, which are defined as homes with an HDTV set that receive and watch HD programming, are projected to grow from 15 million in mid-2006 to 20.3 million at the end of 2006.

    The impressive household growth is tempered by the fact that it is occurring in only a few countries, the firm said. On a more positive note, several new countries introduced HDTV service this year.

    Recent In-Stat research finds:

    * As of mid-2006, the United States and Japan accounted for 91 percent of all worldwide HDTV households. Other countries with significant numbers of HDTV households include Canada, Australia and South Korea.
    * The number of worldwide HDTV households is expected to spike during the next few years as new markets for HD services, particularly in Europe, open up.
    * By the end of 2009, HDTV households will exceed 55 million.
    * In the United States, there is still a “disconnect” between HD services and the penetration of HDTV sets. Currently, one-third of U.S. households with HD-capable TV sets are actually using them to watch HD programming.
    Let's see why this is good for BluRay as a format and the Ps3 as a console. First the 15-20 million number mentioned in the article only accounts for households that have an HDTV and receive programming on it.
    The article specifies that represents only 1/3 of HDTV equipped households, meaning their is a projected 60 million HDTV equipped households by the end of 2006. The article also states that within the lifespan of the Ps3 the number of HDTV owners/HD subscribers is expected to increase to 55 million. Some of this growth will be current HDTV owner's subscribing to HD programming but the rest is fueled by new HDTV sales. The article goes on to say that currently, Japan and the US account for 91% of these households. 91% of 60 million is 54.6 households (with the majority being owned by Japanese and American citizens.) Quiz: Which console manufacturer sold the most in these two territories last go around? Hint: Where is the Playstations largest fanbases?

    More questions: What do you think the adoption rate for next-gen consoles is among HDTV owner's, just a little or a sizeable amount? What do you think the adoption rate among this group is for HD movie players? Last question; what do you think the adoption rate will be among this group for a device that does both?

    That should help fuel sales of the Ps3 and sufficiently ensure the adoption of the BluRay format.


    On the 360's DVD Capacity


    360 games can hold a maximum of 7.05 gigs on a dual layer disc. Microsoft released this information at CEDEC 2005. This is confirmed here.
    This information can also be found here as well.

    On the Use of DVD as a Next-Gen Format


    So what we see from the information posted is that there are at least six games that are above six gigs for the 360. These are NFS:Underground, King Kong, DOA4, MLB 2k6, Tomb Raider, and Battlefield 2. These games all just barely fit onto a 360 DVD given it's 7 gig limit. So I don't know how Japjap and mynd can say that DVD isn't being a constraint. Is it because all the games aren't 6.99999 gigs yet? Most likely the devs couldn't think of any additional content that they could shoehorn into the half gig they had left. Also this is the first year of the console's release. Xbox games grew 77% in size from launch to four years later. The 360 doesn't have that room to grow and neither would the Ps3 if Sony hadn't wisely chosen to utilize BluRay.


    On Multi-Discs as a BluRay Substitute

    The argument Darkfalz seems to making is that BluRay is only good at avoiding multi-disc releases. There's a couple of reasons why that is wrong.

    The first is, as I said before, there are certain types of games that can't be done on multiple discs, namely non-linear, open world titles. If the developers were to put a game of that type on multiple discs it would be a nightmare for the player having to load a different disc whenever they crossed a certain boundry. The only option developers have is to make sure there game assets fit on the DVD either by limiting the scope of the game, reducing the number of unique assets, or reducing the quality of the data. That same game on BluRay could devote gigs and gigs to data ensuring that the game areas can be varied, unique, and high quality. So in this case BluRay is the deciding factor in what's possible in a game, not just "a convenience."

    The second reason is the false assumption that a dev is just as likely to use multiple discs as they are BluRay. The fact is that developers develop for the medium they work with such that a 360 dev aims at 7 gigs and a Ps3 dev aims as high as they are inclined. The result is that each game's content is reflective of the amount of space the devs had available. Anectodal evidence of this is that many 360 games are already coming in at the format's maximum while Ps3 games are already being developed far beyond the DVD limit. In this case BluRay easily allows devs to put more content in their games than they would try to on a lesser format.

    So to summarize...
    1. Some games can't be done at all on multiple DVD-9's, those that can't will be trimmed to fit.
    2. A 360 game being ported from the Ps3 won't likely be released on multiple discs, more likely the game's content will be trimmed to fit.

    The bottom line is that disc space on the 360 is a limitation for developers and on the Ps3 it's a selling point.


    On the 360's "Superior" Transfer Rate

    I've been doing some late night Googling on the dual-layer DVD issue and what I've come up with is promising for Ps3 fans. On several different hardware review sites, I've looked at comparisons between single-layer and dual-layer DVD read speeds. The results are that DVD drives running slower than 8x show little to no difference in read speed between single and dual-layer discs.
    But here's where it gets interesting for us. On drives rated faster than 8x there is a significant difference between their single and dual-layer read speeds. In fact, after looking at more than ten reviews, I found no DVD-ROM drive that could read dual layer faster than 8x max, and the majority of drives did it around 5-6x max. Obviously the average rates were even slower.
    Here's some graphs from such a site:

    Single Layer


    Dual Layer

    The quick drive of the bunch is a 16x model, faster than the 12x found in the 360.

    You guys can draw your own conclusions.

    2nd Edit: I did some fact checking on myself and I was able to find some 16x DVD writers that are able to read dual layer at 12x max, 9x average. I am still unable to find any drives that can read dual layer as fast as single layer. This suggests that this is also the case with the 360. That gives me hope that the Ps3 might have as good or even better transfer rates.


    Here's another example:

    some have questionned the speed of the drive used in the PS3. Not that I have a problem with that, but I think a proper comparison would be good to educate people on this board.

    1X Blu-ray = 4.5 MBps

    1X DVD = 1.32 MBps

    That would be nice like that. But most people don't know that DVD use a variable transfer rate and that the number they use on the box or in the specs is actually the maximum speed that is almost never reached. Blu-Ray use a constant rate.

    A simple analysis of the LG 16X DVD drive that I have in my computer gave me those numbers :

    Start speed : 6.73X
    End speed : 15.54X
    Average speed : 11.60X = 15.31 MBps

    Transposed to the 12X DVD drive give those numbers (when i compared to what some people got, pretty much the same) :

    Start speed : 5.05X
    End speed : 11.66X
    Average speed : 8.7X = 11.484 MBps

    Now that give an average that is still higher than the 9MBps transfer rate the PS3 BD drive is capable of. But there is still another little problem.

    When reading dual-layer disc, the peak reading speed drop to around 8X, not the full 12X. (Not exactly sure how much it drops because I can't run drive test on a 360 because I don't have one, but it does drop so to give it the benifit of the doubt, i'll give numbers for both 8X and 10X) And we know that next-gen games will, for the vast majority, use double layer DVD discs. Blu-ray don't suffer any penalties for reading dual-layers discs.

    So based on this, with a DVD9 game this is what we get :

    8X
    Start speed : 3.37X
    End speed : 7.77X
    Average speed : 5.8X = 7.656 MBps

    10X
    Start speed : 4.21X
    End speed : 9.71X
    Average speed : 7.25X = 9.57 MBps

    Ah ! Now we get something that is more representative. While in some situations the BD drive is indeed slower than the 12X DVD drive, in reality, it compares quite well to it. Both have advantages in different situations, but the 2X BD Drive isn't as slow as some want it to look like.
    Found here.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Longest Post Ever!


    I didn't want your rep points anyways, jerk.

  17. #342
    Darkfalz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jap Attack View Post
    The technology isn't even available to the public yet and probably won't be until another 4-5 years. Why don't you do some f***** research.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

    A single disc costs $120.
    The Reader costs $15000.

    By 2010 the disc price estimate will only go down by $20, so Darkfalz, Its not F***** affordable.
    Oh yeah? Maye not to you... but that's your *opinion*. It's a vastly superior technology to Blu-ray... so why not go with it instead?

    Oh, that's right... because there's this little thing called "balance". Another way of putting it, is "Value" for your dollar.

    To you, it may not be worth it to spend an extra few hundred for the holographic technology... and as we have seen, and as it's been proven - it's not necessary for games this generation.

    The same holds true for Blu-ray. It's *more* affordable than holographic, but it's not worth it to *many*... and the PS3 is no longer affordable to *many* because of the addition of this unwarranted technology.

    Thank you for proving my point.

  18. #343
    Appolyons
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    I dont know where this topic has gone since the last time I checked just as long as the creator of this thread doesnt believe the Blu-Ray will produce the best games on the market. If you think that the graphics a PS3 produces cant be matched or defeated by a top line PC...you got another thing coming.

  19. #344
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    The dev said there will be high quality audio streams of each nation's language the game is released to. A high quality uncompressed 44100khz WAV file would be over 1.2GB gig per hour.

    Let's assume the game takes up 7GB (though I know it's around 12, but just for the skeptic's sake), and that the total audio time per language is around an hour, with 4 different languages supported. That's brings the total space required to around 12GB, the "insomniac extras" promised.

    Couple that with the already known facts, plus HD "movies" on the game, and you can clearly see why Resistance couldn't fit on a DVD in it's current form. Whether the data benefits me, or you is completely irrelevant. It could not exist on a single DVD.
    Bunch of sensitive crybabies on this forum

  20. #345
    Darkfalz
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayWalker View Post
    Looks like Jap Attack *judged* correctly.
    No, he didn't. For anyone who wants "the best" they can't get it in Blu-ray.

    For anyone who wants the cheapest, that's obviously not Blu-ray either.

    For anyone who wants the best for your buck, obviously Blu-ray is still unnecessary, just as holographic media is unnecessary... it's the same argument, just different extremes.

    No one can deny there's a 'sweet spot' for customer value/worth, and functionality. There is...

  21. #346
    Darkfalz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fekz View Post
    The dev said there will be high quality audio streams of each nation's language the game is released to. A high quality uncompressed 44100khz WAV file would be over 1.2GB gig per hour.

    Let's assume the game takes up 7GB (though I know it's around 12, but just for the skeptic's sake), and that the total audio time per language is around an hour, with 4 different languages supported. That's brings the total space required to around 12GB, the "insomniac extras" promised.

    Couple that with the already known facts, plus HD "movies" on the game, and you can clearly see why Resistance couldn't fit on a DVD in it's current form. Whether the data benefits me, or you is completely irrelevant. It could not exist on a single DVD.
    ...and again, you fail to see the point. The point isn't "can a game that's larger than 8 gigs fit on a DVD-9", because obviously it cannot. Can a game that's 22GB fit on two DVD-9's without sacrifice to performance, features, quality, or longevity? Of course it could.

    So again, the only gain you get with Blu-ray is the gaurantee that you won't have to swap a disk. That's known. That's been established from the beginning of this thread.

    The question at hand is, can you get any feature, quality, or substantial improvement in gameplay with Blu-ray that you couldn't with 1-2 DVD-9's?

    So far, that answer is provably "no".

  22. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    Oh yeah? Maye not to you... but that's your *opinion*. It's a vastly superior technology to Blu-ray... so why not go with it instead?

    Oh, that's right... because there's this little thing called "balance". Another way of putting it, is "Value" for your dollar.

    To you, it may not be worth it to spend an extra few hundred for the holographic technology... and as we have seen, and as it's been proven - it's not necessary for games this generation.

    The same holds true for Blu-ray. It's *more* affordable than holographic, but it's not worth it to *many*... and the PS3 is no longer affordable to *many* because of the addition of this unwarranted technology.

    Thank you for proving my point.

    I'm geussing you didn't read anything in the link did you? There's no point in backing HVD because its not even made for public use. It's main purpose to for mass storage for Corporations. So go ahead and invest in one. You won't be able to do anything with it, but go ahead. So your "Value" is buying a product that will cost you a couple thousands that isn't supported or be used for entertainment.

  23. #348
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    It's pretty clear that some people just suffer from format envy.
    Now writing: two Ratchet & Clank novels, a Sly 4 novel, and two rock albums
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  24. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsu View Post
    It's pretty clear that some people just suffer from format envy.
    It's pretty clear Sony-bots are so brainwashed, they'd not only be willing to pay an arm and a leg for a technology that adds nothing to games, but they're willing to blindly defend the ridiculous decision by the nameless corporation ripping them off...

    You go, guys!

  25. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    ...and again, you fail to see the point. The point isn't "can a game that's larger than 8 gigs fit on a DVD-9", because obviously it cannot. Can a game that's 22GB fit on two DVD-9's without sacrifice to performance, features, quality, or longevity? Of course it could.

    So again, the only gain you get with Blu-ray is the gaurantee that you won't have to swap a disk. That's known. That's been established from the beginning of this thread.

    The question at hand is, can you get any feature, quality, or substantial improvement in gameplay with Blu-ray that you couldn't with 1-2 DVD-9's?

    So far, that answer is provably "no".
    Please read what I wrote here:

    On Multi-Discs as a BluRay Substitute

    The argument Darkfalz seems to making is that BluRay is only good at avoiding multi-disc releases. There's a couple of reasons why that is wrong.

    The first is, as I said before, there are certain types of games that can't be done on multiple discs, namely non-linear, open world titles. If the developers were to put a game of that type on multiple discs it would be a nightmare for the player having to load a different disc whenever they crossed a certain boundry. The only option developers have is to make sure there game assets fit on the DVD either by limiting the scope of the game, reducing the number of unique assets, or reducing the quality of the data. That same game on BluRay could devote gigs and gigs to data ensuring that the game areas can be varied, unique, and high quality. So in this case BluRay is the deciding factor in what's possible in a game, not just "a convenience."

    The second reason is the false assumption that a dev is just as likely to use multiple discs as they are BluRay. The fact is that developers develop for the medium they work with such that a 360 dev aims at 7 gigs and a Ps3 dev aims as high as they are inclined. The result is that each game's content is reflective of the amount of space the devs had available. Anectodal evidence of this is that many 360 games are already coming in at the format's maximum while Ps3 games are already being developed far beyond the DVD limit. In this case BluRay easily allows devs to put more content in their games than they would try to on a lesser format.

    So to summarize...
    1. Some games can't be done at all on multiple DVD-9's, those that can't will be trimmed to fit.
    2. A 360 game being ported from the Ps3 won't likely be released on multiple discs, more likely the game's content will be trimmed to fit.

    The bottom line is that disc space on the 360 is a limitation for developers and on the Ps3 it's a selling point.
    The reason why my post addresses you specifically by name is because that text is lifted from another thread where we were debating the same issue. You didn't address what I wrote in that thread so I'm hoping you will in this one (assuming you're up to the challenge.)

    I'm going out for the night but when I get back I promise to respond to whatever arguments you've come up with.


    I didn't want your rep points anyways, jerk.

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