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  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    ...and again, you fail to see the point. The point isn't "can a game that's larger than 8 gigs fit on a DVD-9", because obviously it cannot. Can a game that's 22GB fit on two DVD-9's without sacrifice to performance, features, quality, or longevity? Of course it could.

    So again, the only gain you get with Blu-ray is the gaurantee that you won't have to swap a disk. That's known. That's been established from the beginning of this thread.

    The question at hand is, can you get any feature, quality, or substantial improvement in gameplay with Blu-ray that you couldn't with 1-2 DVD-9's?

    So far, that answer is provably "no".
    Way to load a question.

    Substantial gameplay improvement would be boosting polygon count, or physics, none of which is capable by ANY storage medium available for consoles.

    However, there are many useful, and efficient purposes for Blu-ray technology.

    Additional gameplay, bonus content (Behind the game, footage, interviews, displaying ideas that didn't make the cut), media integration into games like The Darkness. Multi language "world release" games, which could allow all regions to recieve games around the same time.

    The abillity to record a vast amount of audio data for sports games, reducing the amount of times you hear the same thing. The ability to include soundtracks bundled with games, like GTA IV. Realistic radio, or television feeds in games that promote extreme interactivity. All of these possibilities are conceivable in this generation.
    Bunch of sensitive crybabies on this forum

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    No, he didn't. For anyone who wants "the best" they can't get it in Blu-ray.

    For anyone who wants the cheapest, that's obviously not Blu-ray either.

    For anyone who wants the best for your buck, obviously Blu-ray is still unnecessary, just as holographic media is unnecessary... it's the same argument, just different extremes.

    No one can deny there's a 'sweet spot' for customer value/worth, and functionality. There is...
    Other than the extra $100 for the console (all of which probably cannot be attributed to BR) where is all this extra cost that you are talking about? PS3 games ARE THE SAME PRICE as 360 games. Keep in mind that a standalone BR player is fairly expensive. Seems like you might actually be saving money to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    It's pretty clear Sony-bots are so brainwashed, they'd not only be willing to pay an arm and a leg for a technology that adds nothing to games, but they're willing to blindly defend the ridiculous decision by the nameless corporation ripping them off...

    You go, guys!
    Ok, Dark... we'll see how things are in a year or so when devs have had a chance to get down and dirty with all the PS3 has to offer.

    You do argue your postion well, I'll give you that. As do your opponents.


    ContraRadical:
    Nice post... soooo much information, lol

    But this topic is about as productive as arguing over religion or politics... both sides are entrenched.

    We'll see what happens in a year...

  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    It's pretty clear Sony-bots are so brainwashed, they'd not only be willing to pay an arm and a leg for a technology that adds nothing to games, but they're willing to blindly defend the ridiculous decision by the nameless corporation ripping them off...

    You go, guys!
    im guessing the only person brainwashed is you since you prefer mediocracy over improvements in technology.gee i wonder where we would be if sony didnt "force" DVD on the current-gen PS system...

    ....multiple CD/VCDs FTW!!!
    "Yo Tengo Cojones De Acero" <--Guess what that means!
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    Best Podcast Evah!: AGI[allgames.com]


  4. #354
    Xaor
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    Darkfalz, you are completely and utterly in denial.

    If Resistance is using the Blu-Ray, then you are instantly wrong, which you are.

    Good Night.

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    It's pretty clear Sony-bots are so brainwashed, they'd not only be willing to pay an arm and a leg for a technology that adds nothing to games, but they're willing to blindly defend the ridiculous decision by the nameless corporation ripping them off...

    You go, guys!
    This looks like a personal attack against the mass of people on these forums. Why would you do such a thing and continue to say stuff like this --

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    To all the pro-Sony lovers here:

    1) Personal attacks on me make you lose. You lose credibility when you insult others. It's also against forums rules, it's rude, and it's completely unnecessary.

    2) I'm here to learn. If anyone has any *proof* that Blu-ray can in any way improve the gameplay experience over DVD-9, I'd love to see it... but so far, there's no proof at all... in fact, there's proof to the contrary - I've brought it.

    3) Texture compression and procedural techniques are a win/win/win/win.There is no loss in textures that are compressed, and the mild CPU overhead is a far better trade off than using uncompressed textures - ALL games do this... and with the new techniques being used TODAY in games, the space necessity for textures has actually *decreased* from last generation to this one. This is obviously a major blow to anyone trying to imply Blu-ray is needed for next-gen gaming.

    4) Until someone can bring some valid evidence that Blu-ray is needed for games, or adds some feature or improvement to games, the fact remains that PS3 gamers are paying at least 200$ more for a system *just* so they won't have to swap a disk... and so far, with the 100+ 360 games out or soon to be released, not one has required more than one disk... and many of those games are as good looking and long/in-depth or debatably more so than any PS3 game coming out any time soon.

    So please, stop the personal attacks (or you'll be reported), and stop with the useless bickering. Let's concentrate on facts... and so far, no one has brought one fact about how Blu-ray demonstratably *improves* games... not one.
    1) You attack others personally. When you call us all "Sony bots" and brainwashed, you are flaming everyone one of us here that supports the decision of Sony including blu-ray in Playstation 3. It's only your opinion that blu-ray was a bad idea. The rest of us have differing opinions and you're calling us Sony-bots and brainwashed? Take a look at who's doing the flaming.

    2) Here to learn? Yeah right. I'm one of those who's more than anxious to help someone learn and can easily pick up on someone who's soaking up information. Thus far, you've exhibited no such drive and do nothing but continually shove your misguided opinions down other people's throats, and call them idiots for having it. If you want to learn about some hardware here's a good starting point: http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=22858
    Also if you want to learn, be more open minded. Perhaps the strongest proof that you don't want to learn is your pattern of avoiding me.

    3) Texture compression has limitations. Compression has limitations. If you really wanted to learn, you'd find out what they are. Nothing in the world of computers is free. If you were so willing to learn, you would find out what those limitations were. If you found out what those limitations were, you'd realize that no game is using those extreme compression techniques dropping games down to ridiculously small sizes. They are all using compression, but there are limits to it.

    There's also a benefit of blu-ray that you can't deny but I presume you're going to ignore - HD FMV movies. What happens when you put 30 minutes of 1080p or 720p HD video in an RPG? Graphics are very good this generation and the motivation to use FMV sequences seems small, but Squaresoft, Mistwalkers, or some other JRPG developer might want to still include some extra eye candy for viewing pleasure through FMV sequences. They also might offer sound tracks at unprescendented audio quality for those playing their game with sound systems better than basic stereo sound. There is a reason why CD's are recorded at the bit rate that they are. There also is a reason why SACDs were developed after that too.

    Clearly some those problems can be addressed with multiple discs, or they could all be put on one for simplicity's sake and user convenience. Even in the case of an RPG, having all of the movie content on one disc is desirable for a game like Valkyrie Profile where you might have access to play all of the media content from a menu. Having to switch discs for something like that is a drawback and would probably prevent implimentation of such a feature.

    However minor the loss may seem, developers would just decide to cut off certain features of content rather than put them on multiple discs when it enters light consideration. You can consider the extra room in blu-ray as freedom to do more with the room.

    4) I brought valid evidence. Read my previous post and read the content in this one. Don't skim it or skip parts as I can easily tell when you do so. Or are you afraid of learning even though you hypocritically said you are here to learn?

    You also missed the part of my previous post that talked about consumers not paying $200 for the blu-ray drive, but I guess your "selective learning" mind decided that didn't mean anything for your wonderfully biased convenience.

    5) Don't threaten anyone here for personally attacks when you are attacking everyone else.

    -Sig by Svetlana

  6. #356
    Darkfalz
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    Quote Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim View Post
    Don't threaten anyone here for personally attacks when you are attacking everyone else.
    I will return in kind that which is given to me... and you will learn.

    Anyone who thinks Sony's adoption of Blu-ray as their disc medium in the PS3 adds ANYTHING to games, they are fooling themselves.

    ContraRadical - your arguments are transparent, weak, and out dated at best.

    I will only address the ones relivant to my argument AND THE THREAD, which is the *need* for Blu-ray to have games on the same level/scale as Resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical View Post

    On the Need for BluRay


    Here's what the dev (Ted Price, Insomniac) said in his blog:

    So 300x40= 12000 megs or over 12 gigs of level data alone. Factor in music, movies, voice and other elements and you easily get into the 20 gig range.
    1) Problem #1: Source credibility. This is a second party to Sony who's releasing the premiere PS3 launch title. Therefore, the data they give will (of course) be skewed to appear in favor of Blu-ray support. It's about as credible as if I brought this to the table:

    "Microsoft ‘guarantees’ that Xbox 360 games will look better than PS3 games"

    Oh, I guess that means it's 100% true, and we should accept it as fact, since a well established company made the announcement. Please.

    2) Problem #2: Apples to Oranges. Just as a developer on an Xbox 360 title has the 10MB of embedded Dram that they can use to do tile-based rendering enabling 4xFSAA on a 720p frame buffer virtually for free, or to use it for shadow buffer assistance, it doesn't mean the PS3 is incapable of producing the same results in a different way. It just means the devs have an easier way of acheiving a similar result.

    To say that "Insomniac is using 22GB of data, therefore the game could not be made on Xbox 360" is ludicrous, juvinial, and illustrates not only a lack of comprehension in the way games are made/how they work - it also shows a naivity that's almost impossible to dispute.

    "Large games may simply be the result of poorly optimized programming, not an indication that they couldn't be smaller if they had to be, and still deliver the same experience"
    -Aaron Stanton

    Furthermore, new techniques to shrink file size in games are underway and evolving daily, and they also usually increase performance, decrease development time/save money, and yeilds equal to or better final results with no drop in performance. To name a few examples:

    XNA: Tools in the Microsoft XNA dev kit make it easy for devlopers to weed out files that are no longer being used by their apps. Most shipping games have files included that shouldn't be, or are no longer being used. Example: GTA: SA had the "Hot Coffee" mini-game that wasn't supposed to make it on the disk. The developer who created it clearly indicated that it wasn't meant to be in the game, and that was proven by the fact that accessing it meant hacking the product. XAN is far more than this (as you should know), but it clearly can help not only make the development process easier and quicker - it can also trim down games by stripping out worthless files/content.

    Procedural Synthesis: Most commonly known for its use in Oblivion, PS is extremely space conservative, money saving, and asset sparing. It's a simple algorithm which is executed at virtually no loss in CPU cycles, yet *massive* savings to disk space used. It generates environment that are more varied, more natural, and more organic than those created by artists the traditional (read - obsolete) way. Oblivion, in all it's massive - NON LINEAR world took up less than 3/4 of a DVD-9.

    Procedural Textures: As seen with Allegorithmic's new Xbox Live Arcade game Roboblitz, this technique shrinks textures that are LOSSLESSLY COMPRESSED to 70% of their COMPRESSED size. That means that 1GB of textures can easily be reduced to 333MB yeilding the exact same results as the 1GB original. That's a huge, huge savings - and a breakthrough to the industry.

    Dynamic Animations: Canned animations are last gen. The new Indianna Jones game is utilizing a new technique not too dissimilar to "rag doll" physics, but no longer is the "rag doll" like physics restricted to the dead body as it collapses. They have animations which react dynamically to appropriate situations. It's unlikely any two deaths in the game will ever be identical - because every animated part of their body responds dynamically to the environment. This new technique *SAVES* space on a disk, decreases the art asset needs, and increases the realism/immersion of a game. It's a win/win/win - and again, yes, it saves space on a disk, because there's no need to "store" canned animations.

    ...Finally...

    who wants bloated games?
    Do you think Insomniac will release an online demo of Resistance (which poor PS3 players have to pay a buck for)? Do you think Insomniac will release downloadable content for Resistance? Maybe a few extra levels? Probably not... a demo usually runs about 1/5 the final product... that would mean the demo would be roughly 4gigs... and you thought having a larger Hard drive would be a saving grace to running out of room fast?!? Not if games continue to become massively (and unecessarily) bloated, like Resistance.

    Therefore not only is Blu-ray unecessary, it's actually detrimental to the digital distribution of demos, downloadable content, and possibly more.

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical View Post
    Xbox games grew 77% in size from launch to four years later. The 360 doesn't have that room to grow and neither would the Ps3 if Sony hadn't wisely chosen to utilize BluRay.
    Even if Xbox 360 games were using 100% AVERAGE of DVD-9's right now (which they're not by a long shot), they could easily grow into using one disk for MP, one for SP.

    But who wants to have to swap a disk while playing a game?!?

    You do. Did you buy Final Fantasy 7? Resident Evil 4 on Gamecube? Some of the best games in history have been on multiple disks, and no one has *ever* cared. No one has *ever* taken even 1/100th off a gamescore because the user needed to switch a disk at some point or another.

    Besides, never have I argued Xbox 360 owners wouldn't (at some point) likely need to switch a disk... I've only argued that this *minor* inconvenience is the only gain by spending the extra $300 in manufacturing costs Sony bites on every PS3 produced... and so far, no one has proven me wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical View Post

    On Multi-Discs as a BluRay Substitute

    The argument Darkfalz seems to making is that BluRay is only good at avoiding multi-disc releases. There's a couple of reasons why that is wrong.
    Wrong... and you'll admit it for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical View Post
    The first is, as I said before, there are certain types of games that can't be done on multiple discs, namely non-linear, open world titles.
    ORLY?

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical View Post
    If the developers were to put a game of that type on multiple discs it would be a nightmare for the player having to load a different disc whenever they crossed a certain boundry.
    You just proved you're incapable of stating the facts as they are. The fact that YOU just admitted that it *categorically IS possible*, it's just *at very worst* an inconvenience to the user...

    ...but you and I both know no developer is that stupid...

    ...and honestly, do you need a non-linear world larger than the one in Oblivion? Statistically, less than 5% of those who buy Oblivion will ever finish it, and less than that will acheive everything possible in the game.

    GTA III for PS2 and Xbox was less than a gig... indicating that non-linear games aren't necessarily any *larger* in terms of file size on a disk, and are quite possibly on average *smaller* than linear games.

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical View Post
    The second reason is the false assumption that a dev is just as likely to use multiple discs as they are BluRay.
    Absolutely true. I'd never debate this.

    Developers use what they've got, and take advantage of the specific hardware they are targeting.

    This means that:
    - Games like Assasin's Creed will have worse AI on the PS3 because Ubisoft is targeting the 360 as the primary focus.

    - Games like "The Darkenss" will have inferior textures on the PS3 because they used the extra memory on the 360 that the PS3 doesn't have available.

    - Games like Rainbow Six will look better on the 360, because it's the targetted platform.

    ...what it absolutely does NOT mean, is that the exact things that are done better on the 360 aren't possible on the PS3 with added work... it just means that the developers obviously targetted a specific platform, and used its features to their advantage. Blu-ray is no exception. Lair and Resistance are already bloated games... the question is, could they be done as good or better without blu-ray? Of course they could.

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical View Post
    So to summarize...
    1. Some games can't be done at all on multiple DVD-9's, those that can't will be trimmed to fit.
    False. You admitted it yourself... and I proved that wrong. Next:

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical View Post
    2. A 360 game being ported from the Ps3 won't likely be released on multiple discs, more likely the game's content will be trimmed to fit.
    This is ridiculously and obviously speculation at best. Developers and publishers are intelligent enough to know that stripped down ports won't sell. If anything (in the event of a non-simultaneous release), the port would likely come with two disks, and have *more* content... not less... or the two would be identical and developed simultaneously.

    Example: GTA for the Xbox 360 and PS3 will be identical, accept that the 360 version gets extra downloadable missions that are exclusive to the Xbox 360.... oh, and yeah - that's a non-linear game.

    Please. If you're going to flat out speculate this kind of garbage, you might want to at *least* find a decent example of something like this being even HINTED at by a credible developer... but, you can't... because this scenario won't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical View Post
    The bottom line is that disc space on the 360 is a limitation for developers and on the Ps3 it's a selling point.
    Wrong. The bottom line is Blu-ray is overkill for this generation of games, and does not, will not, and CANNOT add a single element to games that DVD-9 can't.

    End of debate.

    ...now, I've got a life, so I'm going to tend to it...

    Sources:
    http://www.gamesfirst.com/index.php?id=1132
    http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/702/702389p1.html
    http://www.xboxic.com/news/1728
    http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/05/ne...texture-files/
    http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpo...8&postcount=84
    http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/acti...d=m-1-30349606
    http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/a...d=m-1-30302819
    http://pc.ign.com/articles/736/736396p1.html

  7. #357
    Xaor
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    @EbonySeph

    Another great post; like pretty much all of yours;

    Down to earth,

    I'd rep you, but it doesn't allow me to anymore !

    Unfortunately DarkFalz has once again created a long post attacking people; and completely and utterly ignored your posts that rip his to shreds.

    @DarkFalz.

    You are in denial.

    Resistance has shown already that its needed, and don't even start down the 'noob developer' line.

    Ratchet & Clank is one of the greatest gaming series ever made, had you thought that maybe YOU are the one who is wrong

  8. #358
    Darkfalz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaor View Post
    @EbonySeph

    Another great post; like pretty much all of yours;

    Down to earth,

    I'd rep you, but it doesn't allow me to anymore !

    Unfortunately DarkFalz has once again created a long post attacking people; and completely and utterly ignored your posts that rip his to shreds.

    @DarkFalz.

    You are in denial.

    Resistance has shown already that its needed, and don't even start down the 'noob developer' line.

    Ratchet & Clank is one of the greatest gaming series ever made, had you thought that maybe YOU are the one who is wrong


    Keep telling yourself that... I've proven the point. No one can argue that Blu-ray is undisputably *not* needed for games this generation.

    End of debate.

    Until someone can challenge the points I've posted, I'll accept that as a surrender on the depate, acknowledging that I'm 100% correct in the statement that "Blu-ray adds nothing to games, and is little more than a virtually useless expendadure that all PS3's are sadled with".

    Thank you.

  9. #359
    The Heisman
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    So... at the end of the day Dark, you're not buying a PS3 because they are giving you a BR player for $100...

    Not necessary for gaming... thats such a rash statement. What is neccessary... wireless conrtollers certainly aren't, neither is rumble...neither is Hi-Def graphics... neither are HDDs... and yet we have all that. DAMN MS, SONY, AND NINTENDO FOR GIVING US MORE THAN THE ESSENTIALS!!!!

    At the end of the day, BR may open up many days for developers and in turn gaming as we know it today might have the opportunity to evolve into something new, bigger, and better.

    Sounds to me like you'd be satisfied if things had just stayed at the SNES level...
    Too bad you might be missing out, I'd love to whoop up on you in Madden

  10. #360
    Xaor
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post


    Keep telling yourself that... I've proven the point. No one can argue that Blu-ray is undisputably *not* needed for games this generation.

    End of debate.

    Until someone can challenge the points I've posted, I'll accept that as a surrender on the depate, acknowledging that I'm 100% correct in the statement that "Blu-ray adds nothing to games, and is little more than a virtually useless expendadure that all PS3's are sadled with".

    Thank you.
    EbonySeph KEEPS shredding your arguments and you KEEP ignoring them.

    You haven't proven ANYTHING.

    You've made MASSIVE wild assumptions.

    Above all you're irrational and wouldn't buy the PS3 if it was the same price as an XBOX360 and had DVD-9.

    Oh and your arrogance astounds me.

    All you need to know is:

    A first gen game is using more than a DVD-9's space.

    You're right. End of Debate. I've won.

  11. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    1) Problem #1: Source credibility. This is a second party to Sony who's releasing the premiere PS3 launch title. Therefore, the data they give will (of course) be skewed to appear in favor of Blu-ray support. It's about as credible as if I brought this to the table:
    Source credibility? You think they put extra stuff on the disc purely for the sake of swelling the size of the game?

    Who would do that? Why would they do that?

    Give it up.

    To say that "Insomniac is using 22GB of data, therefore the game could not be made on Xbox 360" is ludicrous, juvinial, and illustrates not only a lack of comprehension in the way games are made/how they work - it also shows a naivity that's almost impossible to dispute.
    Insomniac's developers stated that they could, of course, do Resistance on the 360.. or on PS2, for that matter. It would simply be a different game.

    Procedural Textures:
    As seen with Allegorithmic's new Xbox Live Arcade game Roboblitz, this technique shrinks textures that are LOSSLESSLY COMPRESSED to 70% of their COMPRESSED size. That means that 1GB of textures can easily be reduced to 333MB yeilding the exact same results as the 1GB original. That's a huge, huge savings - and a breakthrough to the industry.
    It's also not credible. At least, not as you are characterizing it. Shannon's information theory proved that there are limits to compression, according to the unpredictability of the source material. Certain textures may be compressible to any arbitrary level, but it is a fact of mathematics that the set of textures that can be so compressed are a small subset of possible textures. Particularly and especially if the constraint is for truly lossless compression.

    So, don't expect miracles, here. Games ported from PS3 to the XBox may indeed take advantaqe of more aggressive compression to fit on DVD-7, but that compression will not be lossless.

    Canned animations are last gen. The new Indianna Jones game is utilizing a new technique not too dissimilar to "rag doll" physics, but no longer is the "rag doll" like physics restricted to the dead body as it collapses. They have animations which react dynamically to appropriate situations. It's unlikely any two deaths in the game will ever be identical - because every animated part of their body responds dynamically to the environment. This new technique *SAVES* space on a disk, decreases the art asset needs, and increases the realism/immersion of a game. It's a win/win/win - and again, yes, it saves space on a disk, because there's no need to "store" canned animations.
    Certainly. And games will be improved thereby. But model animation is a small part of current game data, so optimizing here won't make as large a difference as all that.

    Do you think Insomniac will release an online demo of Resistance (which poor PS3 players have to pay a buck for)? Do you think Insomniac will release downloadable content for Resistance? Maybe a few extra levels? Probably not... a demo usually runs about 1/5 the final product... that would mean the demo would be roughly 4gigs... and you thought having a larger Hard drive would be a saving grace to running out of room fast?!? Not if games continue to become massively (and unecessarily) bloated, like Resistance.
    How marvelously clever of you to know that Resistance's disk usage is unnecessarily bloated without ever playing the game.

    Even if Xbox 360 games were using 100% AVERAGE of DVD-9's right now (which they're not by a long shot), they could easily grow into using one disk for MP, one for SP.

    But who wants to have to swap a disk while playing a game?!?

    You do. Did you buy Final Fantasy 7? Resident Evil 4 on Gamecube? Some of the best games in history have been on multiple disks, and no one has *ever* cared. No one has *ever* taken even 1/100th off a gamescore because the user needed to switch a disk at some point or another.
    You're wrong about that. I recall PS game reviews complaining (and deducting points) due to excessive disc swapping.

    Besides, never have I argued Xbox 360 owners wouldn't (at some point) likely need to switch a disk... I've only argued that this *minor* inconvenience is the only gain by spending the extra $300 in manufacturing costs Sony bites on every PS3 produced... and so far, no one has proven me wrong.
    Ah, so we agree that the $100 at retail isn't compelling enough to make your point convincing, then.

    As to the production cost.. a) you don't know what that cost is for Sony, and b) if DVD drives are as cheap as CD drives used to be, is there any reason to believe that Blu-Ray drives won't follow the same price curve?

    You just proved you're incapable of stating the facts as they are. The fact that YOU just proved is that it *categorically IS* possible, it's just *at very worst* an inconvenience to the user... but you and I both know no developer is that stupid... and honestly, do you need a non-linear world larger than the one in Oblivion? Statistically, less than 5% of those who buy Oblivion will ever finish it, and less than that will acheive everything possible in the game.

    GTA III for PS2 and Xbox was less than a gig... indicating that non-linear games aren't necessarily any *larger* in terms of file size on a disk, and are quite possibly on average *smaller* than linear games.
    Honestly, do you need a non-linear world larger and with better textures than GTA III?

    This means that:
    - Games like Assasin's Creed will have worse AI on the PS3 because Ubisoft is targeting the 360 as the primary focus.

    - Games like "The Darkenss" will have inferior textures on the PS3 because they used the extra memory on the 360 that the PS3 doesn't have available.

    - Games like Rainbow Six will look better on the 360, because it's the targetted platform.

    ...what it absolutely does NOT mean, is that the exact things that are done better on the 360 aren't possible on the PS3 with added work... it just means that the developers obviously targetted a specific platform, and used its features to their advantage. Blu-ray is no exception. Lair and Resistance are already bloated games... the question is, could they be done as good or better without blu-ray? Of course they could.
    Sure they could. With more coarse-grained textures or smaller game worlds.

    This is speculation at best. Developers and publishers are intelligent enough to know that stripped down ports won't sell. If anything, the port would likely come with two disks, and have *more* content... not less... or the two would be identical and developed simultaneously.
    Just like they did with games that were ported from PS/2 and XBox to the Gamecube's smaller disc structure, right?

    No, in fact what they did in that case was they took off FMV, or they shrunk the quantity and quality of textures and game detail.

    Rember EA's "The Two Towers" and "Return of the King"?

    Please, if you're going to flat out speculate this kind of garbage, you might want to at *least* find a decent example of something like this being even HINTED at by a credible developer... but, you can't... because this scenario won't happen.
    It did on Gamecube, but I guess the Gamecube's discs fell below the magic threshold of perfect, necessary and eternally sufficient capacity.

    Wrong. The bottom line is Blu-ray is overkill for this generation of games, and does not, will not, and CANNOT add a single element to games that DVD-9 can't.

    End of debate.
    How can it be the end of the debate when the PS3 hasn't even come out yet? And you haven't seen and touched a single game that uses Blu-Ray.

    Get real.

  12. #362
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    The fact is DarkFalz, that you:

    1. Aren't a games producer
    2. Seem not to have a job (You seem to spend an absurd amount of time on here if you do)
    3. Have NEVER played a PS3 game (i'm guessing cause you wouldn't touch one with an iron rod.

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    Darkfalz is in the most part right, I don't see why you people need to justify your extra $100. If it makes you happy, get it. But don't make up reasons that don't exist.
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  14. #364
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    No he isn't, the Blu-Ray is superior in all ways to the DVD9 b/c of more storage capacity. More storage means more options and extras.

    The reason why we're defending our "overpriced" system is b/c there's plenty of Xbots claiming we're wasting out money; but we're not the ones still buying an obsolete system.

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    Obsolete? Obsolete as in graphically equal to or better?

    I have a 360, and I really enjoy it. There are at least 10 must-have titles coming out for it in the next 6 months, for me.

    SC: Double Agent
    Call of Duty 3
    F.E.A.R.
    RB6: Vegas
    Gears of War
    Lost Planet
    Mass Effect
    Alan Wake
    Bioshock
    Assassins Creed
    Huxley
    Resident Evil 5
    Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway

    - 13 actually

    I don't need a reason to make "my console" look better. Im happy with it, I'm playing it already, and it has a flood of top tier titles coming to it in the near future. What more can a gamer want? Blue Ray is obviously not a necessity with games like these coming to the console.

    You guys are still trying to make the PS3 sound better in all ways, when none of you own one yet, nor are there many great games on the horizon as of yet. I bet you'd be lucky to name 10 absolute "must-haves" in the next year.

    A console isn't made by its storage format. It's made by its dev support and hardware. Being that the consoles will be about equal in the A.I., Graphics and Physics departments (which slight advantages either way depeinging on the category or game), it's all up to the devs, and the 360 has those devs right now. I'm not saying the PS3 doesn't have the devs, but it doesn't have all the AAA games on the horizon.
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  16. #366
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    Splinter Cell, only b/c it looks different from the other SC games, does look promising. And Alan Wake seems to have a great storyline but just needs to work on the physics (did you see how he jumped over that broken bridge in the trailer?).

    I really don't know how Blu Ray is going to fair. The DVD was never thought to be successful with the PS2 but that was the Trojan Horse of that generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by <377 View Post
    Splinter Cell, only b/c it looks different from the other SC games, does look promising. And Alan Wake seems to have a great storyline but just needs to work on the physics (did you see how he jumped over that broken bridge in the trailer?).

    I really don't know how Blu Ray is going to fair. The DVD was never thought to be successful with the PS2 but that was the Trojan Horse of that generation.
    Well, the last generation needed DVD desperately, games were already taking up 2-3 CDs consistently. You rarely saw multiple DVD games lest gen, and even if you did, I bet they were on DVD-5s. Compression technology also didn't advance that far last gen.

    Maybe Blue Ray will be great for games, but I can guarantee you it's not why sony put it in the console. For them its about pushing the BD format. They deny it up and down, just like they said no-rumble was for the consumers benefit. Both are decisions by sony that are purely for their own benefit, not for the gamers. It may benefit the gamer in some way, but not because that's what sony is going for.
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    Yes or no I suppose, sony put BD into PS3 for many reasons.
    Helping BD sale is one, having larger capacity, and
    putting a new gen optical disk on new gen system sounds good is also another.
    ANd sony do try to put BD and PS3 into a package.
    Frankly MS is trying to do so too by introducing addons.
    It's just more next gen to have a next gen player on board.

  19. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    1) Problem #1: Source credibility. This is a second party to Sony who's releasing the premiere PS3 launch title. Therefore, the data they give will (of course) be skewed to appear in favor of Blu-ray support. It's about as credible as if I brought this to the table:

    "Microsoft ‘guarantees’ that Xbox 360 games will look better than PS3 games"
    The difference is that your example is a subjective measurement, an opinion, where as the statement by Insomniac is a discreet quantitative value not open to opinion. The mere fact that you automatically assume Insomniac is lying is evidence of your prejudice. You can't see beyond your cynical pre-conceived notions of anything related to Sony or the Ps3. You have no proof at all that this could be true so I don't see why I should consider it evidence for your argument.

    2)To say that "Insomniac is using 22GB of data, therefore the game could not be made on Xbox 360" is ludicrous, juvinial, and illustrates not only a lack of comprehension in the way games are made/how they work - it also shows a naivity that's almost impossible to dispute.
    I never said that Resistance couldn't be made on the 360, at least as a result of a storage limitation. I think that with three seperate discs the 360 version could utilize the same amount of storage, since 22/7.05=3.12. We know that Resitance already utilizes compression from dev interviews so that means that a 360 dev would either have to use some form of compression that can eliminate 2/3 the data used in the Ps3 version, or they could use multiple discs.
    Unfortunately it's more likely that the 360 devs. would have to cut data or not bring the game to the platform at all given the cost of reworking that data. In either case developers would have to dedicate their time to finding a way around the DVD-9 limitations instead of improving the game.

    Large games may simply be the result of poorly optimized programming, not an indication that they couldn't be smaller if they had to be, and still deliver the same experience[/i]"
    -Aaron Stanton
    That's your hope but you have zero evidence to support that assertion. In fact many of the largest Xbox titles were the most popular. Did they all suffer from poorly optimized programming?

    Furthermore, new techniques to shrink file size in games are underway and evolving daily...
    And compression technology advanced during the last generation too in which the average Xbox game grew 77% larger over the hardware cycle. You'd better hope technology can advance at a pace quicker than the last go-around.

    ...they also usually increase performance, decrease development time/save money, and yeilds equal to or better final results with no drop in performance.
    Wrong. Hardware decompression can be done without effecting performance but almost any variety of software decompression involoves shifting resources away from other processes. It's also doubtful that implementing any of these advanced compression technologies would be cheaper than simply having a larger format to work with. If there is a situation where compressed data is advantageous, the Ps3 still has the option to utilize it.

    XNA: Tools in the Microsoft XNA dev kit make it easy for devlopers to weed out files that are no longer being used by their apps. Most shipping games have files included that shouldn't be, or are no longer being used. Example: GTA: SA had the "Hot Coffee" mini-game that wasn't supposed to make it on the disk. The developer who created it clearly indicated that it wasn't meant to be in the game, and that was proven by the fact that accessing it meant hacking the product. XAN is far more than this (as you should know), but it clearly can help not only make the development process easier and quicker - it can also trim down games by stripping out worthless files/content.
    That's nice and all but how much extraneous data do you think developers normally leave behind? Enough to fill even a tenth of the difference between a fully loaded DVD-9 and a fully loaded single layer BluRay disc? Unlikely.

    Procedural Synthesis: Most commonly known for its use in Oblivion, PS is extremely space conservative, money saving, and asset sparing. It's a simple algorithm which is executed at virtually no loss in CPU cycles, yet *massive* savings to disk space used. It generates environment that are more varied, more natural, and more organic than those created by artists the traditional (read - obsolete) way. Oblivion, in all it's massive - NON LINEAR world took up less than 3/4 of a DVD-9.
    Oblivion used a little procedural sysnthesis on the its trees. Creating a game completely using procedural methods would be way too processor intensive to justify the space savings. Just look at the 90 KB game above as proof. Not very pretty is it?

    Perhaps the reason Oblivion uses only five and half gigs is due to the fact that its varied environments use the same five basic texture sets over and over. You had towns, outdoors, mountains, interiors, and Oblivion gates and that's about it. Had the game been designed for BluRay, each are of the map could have its own distinct appearance. That's what developer's are talking about when they say BluRay allows for more unique data.

    Procedural Textures: As seen with Allegorithmic's new Xbox Live Arcade game Roboblitz, this technique shrinks textures that are LOSSLESSLY COMPRESSED to 70% of their COMPRESSED size. That means that 1GB of textures can easily be reduced to 333MB yeilding the exact same results as the 1GB original. That's a huge, huge savings - and a breakthrough to the industry.
    That helps with textures a good deal but what are the specifics of this technology? How hard is it to implement? Does it work in more processor intensive games? Does it work with all textures? Does it work with streaming? Without knowing the actual applications of this technology, it's hard to determine what it's real benefit is going to be. Even if it worked for all textures, all the time (unlikely), it still can't help with other types of files' sizes.

    Dynamic Animations: Canned animations are last gen. The new Indianna Jones game is utilizing a new technique not too dissimilar to "rag doll" physics, but no longer is the "rag doll" like physics restricted to the dead body as it collapses. They have animations which react dynamically to appropriate situations. It's unlikely any two deaths in the game will ever be identical - because every animated part of their body responds dynamically to the environment. This new technique *SAVES* space on a disk, decreases the art asset needs, and increases the realism/immersion of a game. It's a win/win/win - and again, yes, it saves space on a disk, because there's no need to "store" canned animations.
    And that is but a small part of the data that makes up the bulk of a game. All these methods you mentioned used together can't dodge the limitations that the DVD format imposes. BluRay has to deal with none of this. Developer's with the luxury of developing on BD-ROM can spend their time on making a great game rather than finding ways around a design limitation.

    who wants bloated games?
    Do you think Insomniac will release an online demo of Resistance (which poor PS3 players have to pay a buck for)? Do you think Insomniac will release downloadable content for Resistance? Maybe a few extra levels? Probably not... a demo usually runs about 1/5 the final product... that would mean the demo would be roughly 4gigs... and you thought having a larger Hard drive would be a saving grace to running out of room fast?!? Not if games continue to become massively (and unecessarily) bloated, like Resistance.

    Therefore not only is Blu-ray unecessary, it's actually detrimental to the digital distribution of demos, downloadable content, and possibly more.
    Wrong again. Demos can be trimmed for space without it affecting the quility of the game so they don't always have to use the same amount of data as the stages would in the full game. Plus it is not just the actual size of each level that causes the disc size of Resistance but also the fact that each level has many of its own unique assets. Thus a demo featuring a single level could come it at close to the same size of a DVD-9 demo if need be. BluRay does not hurt digital distribution in any way.

    Even if Xbox 360 games were using 100% AVERAGE of DVD-9's right now (which they're not by a long shot), they could easily grow into using one disk for MP, one for SP.
    But even you admit that developer's "will use what they've got, and take advantage of the specific hardware they are targeting." So it's more likely that the scope of the game will become less ambitious instead of splitting the game in two. So in real, practical terms, BluRay will improve games by the mere fact that devs will utilize the specific strengths of the platform.

    But who wants to have to swap a disk while playing a game?!?

    You do. Did you buy Final Fantasy 7? Resident Evil 4 on Gamecube? Some of the best games in history have been on multiple disks, and no one has *ever* cared. No one has *ever* taken even 1/100th off a gamescore because the user needed to switch a disk at some point or another.

    Besides, never have I argued Xbox 360 owners wouldn't (at some point) likely need to switch a disk... I've only argued that this *minor* inconvenience is the only gain by spending the extra $300 in manufacturing costs Sony bites on every PS3 produced... and so far, no one has proven me wrong.
    You've admitted another advantage of BluRay (devs. target the capabilities of the platform they're developing for) of BluRay so I think you've proven your self wrong already. As for swapping discs, yeah it can sometimes be used to alleviate the capacity shortage of DVD-9s so I guess it's nice you don't mind doing it. Others are happy not to have to deal with this. For the record that's two advantages you've admitted BluRay has.


    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical
    If the developers were to put a game of that type on multiple discs it would be a nightmare for the player having to load a different disc whenever they crossed a certain boundry.
    You just proved you're incapable of stating the facts as they are. The fact that YOU just admitted that it *categorically IS possible*, it's just *at very worst* an inconvenience to the user...
    This is my favorite part of your post because right after you said the text I've bolded, you went on to add...

    ...but you and I both know no developer is that stupid...
    So your whole point is that, although I was technically incorrect in saying it's categorically impossible for some games to be done on DVD-9, you believe that a developer would have to be "stupid" to actually attempt such a game on the format in a real situation.

    Well I'm man enough to know when I've been had and I'll admit your'e right on this one. So let me agree with you when I say that, it is technically possible for any game on BluRay to be done a multiple DVDs, it's just that a developer most likely would not attempt to do so on so many DVD-9s because of practical limitations. If he did try to, he'd be "stupid."


    ...and honestly, do you need a non-linear world larger than the one in Oblivion? Statistically, less than 5% of those who buy Oblivion will ever finish it, and less than that will acheive everything possible in the game.
    And as I said before, "Perhaps the reason Oblivion uses only five and half gigs is due to the fact that its varied environments use the same four basic texture sets over and over. You had towns, outdoors, mountains, interiors, and Oblivion gates and that's about it. Had the game been designed for BluRay, each are of the map could have its own distinct appearance. That's what developer's are talking about when they say BluRay allows for more unique data."
    GTA III for PS2 and Xbox was less than a gig... indicating that non-linear games aren't necessarily any *larger* in terms of file size on a disk, and are quite possibly on average *smaller* than linear games.
    A few points on this one;
    -I'm willing to bet San Andreas is considerably larger.
    -The game re-used assets all over the city.
    -That was a second gen, last-gen game.
    -Notice how small the land area in Saints Row is compared to any of the GTA games?
    -A free roaming game on BluRay allows for much more varied environments.
    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical
    The second reason is the false assumption that a dev is just as likely to use multiple discs as they are BluRay.
    Absolutely true. I'd never debate this.
    Developers use what they've got, and take advantage of the specific hardware they are targeting.
    I know I already rubbed this in your face but I thought I'd point it out again for good measure. You just admitted that 360 devs won't utilize multiple discs and Ps3 devs will use BluRay because they take advantage of the specific hardware they are targeting. Too bad the 360 doesn't use a larger disc format for its devs to target.

    This means that:
    - Games like Assasin's Creed will have worse AI on the PS3 because Ubisoft is targeting the 360 as the primary focus.
    Oops, did you miss the memo? Both versions will have equally adept AI.

    - Games like "The Darkenss" will have inferior textures on the PS3 because they used the extra memory on the 360 that the PS3 doesn't have available.
    That's funny, you forgot to mention the fact that the Ps3 version of the Darkness has additional content specifically because of BluRay.

    - Games like Rainbow Six will look better on the 360, because it's the targetted platform.
    Got a link to the original source of this info? I guess we'll see upon their release.

    ...what it absolutely does NOT mean, is that the exact things that are done better on the 360 aren't possible on the PS3 with added work... it just means that the developers obviously targetted a specific platform, and used its features to their advantage. Blu-ray is no exception.
    Thanks for for admitting again that BluRay has advantages beyond avoiding multi-discs.

    Lair and Resistance are already bloated games... the question is, could they be done as good or better without blu-ray? Of course they could.
    You've got no proof of this. Just a blinding prejudice.

    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical
    So to summarize...
    1. Some games can't be done at all on multiple DVD-9's, those that can't will be trimmed to fit.
    False. You admitted it yourself... and I proved that wrong. Next:
    I'll just post it again for you; "...So your whole point is that, although I was technically incorrect in saying it's categorically impossible for some games to be done on DVD-9, you believe that a developer would have to be "stupid" to actually attempt such a game on the format in a real situation.

    Well I'm man enough to know when I've been had and I'll admit your'e right on this one. So let me agree with you when I say that, it is technically possible for any game on BluRay to be done a multiple DVDs, it's just that a developer most likely would not attempt to do so on so many DVD-9s because of practical limitations. If he did try to, he'd be "stupid."

    This is ridiculously and obviously speculation at best. Developers and publishers are intelligent enough to know that stripped down ports won't sell. If anything (in the event of a non-simultaneous release), the port would likely come with two disks, and have *more* content... not less... or the two would be identical and developed simultaneously.

    Example: GTA for the Xbox 360 and PS3 will be identical, accept that the 360 version gets extra downloadable missions that are exclusive to the Xbox 360.... oh, and yeah - that's a non-linear game.

    Please. If you're going to flat out speculate this kind of garbage, you might want to at *least* find a decent example of something like this being even HINTED at by a credible developer... but, you can't... because this scenario won't happen.
    Again you've made me re-think my ways. After further consideration I realized that infact the scenario I described above was extremely unlikely. You wont see many BluRay-filling Ps3 games ported to the 360 because most multiplatform games are developed first on the less capable hardware. That's how it was last generation and that's the precedent that Ubisoft is again setting this generation.

    A more likely scenario is a bunch of games that were first developed for the 360 being ported over to the Ps3 the same way Ps2 games went over to Xbox games last generation.


    Quote Originally Posted by ContraRadical
    The bottom line is that disc space on the 360 is a limitation for developers and on the Ps3 it's a selling point.
    Wrong. The bottom line is Blu-ray is overkill for this generation of games, and does not, will not, and CANNOT add a single element to games that DVD-9 can't.
    Together we've been able to establish that...
    -BluRay helps avoid multiple-discs.
    -Some games can't be practically done on multiple discs.
    -Developers will take advantage of BluRay because developers "will use what they've got, and take advantage of the specific hardware they are targeting."
    -BluRay allows for more data.
    -And for more unique and varied data.

    Thanks for the discussion!


    End of debate.


    I didn't want your rep points anyways, jerk.

  20. #370
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    Sony Rocks ! ! !

    Thanks Sony for putting Blu-Ray in the PS3.

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    darkfalz just got owned on 2 levels.

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    and then some, WELL DONE CR, excellent post

  23. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordmadjack View Post
    and then some, WELL DONE CR, excellent post
    Thanks, I'm almost ashamed at how long that post is.


    I didn't want your rep points anyways, jerk.

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    That was beautiful CR.
    You flattened the troll turds.
    There needs to be more disection posts


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    All it matters is i'd rather have built in blu-ray then have to add on a HD-DVD player which in the end would cost more.

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