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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by podsaurus View Post
    I have no clue how cavemen first decided that throwing some meat on the fire would make it better but the obvious reason we cook our meat now is the destroy diseases that can come with it. Such as E.Coli or Salmonella.

    And I don't know what kind of diseases are in say seal meat but I would think there's something. So when a shark eats a seal sometimes they will die of whatever disease that seal carried. If meat is really used to increase brain intelligence(not saying it for sure is or is not) but perhaps that is why other animals haven't evolved because they are still plagued by diseases that kill them off. Just speculation about that one.

    I'll have to look at this more closely but I don't really think I'll give up meat any time soon. I still stick to what I said before. Plants are living things as well so things are still being killed for human consumption. I'm sorry to say but I don't believe it's possible to tip toe around everyone and not hurt anyone. Even with this post some people may vigorously disagree with me and that's ok.

    There are winners and losers. The eaters and the eaten. And someone tell me but I can't think of a single food that doesn't come from some living thing. Unless you want to sit around and eat rocks.
    The difference between animal and plant would be the central nervous system


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  2. #77
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    Doesn't plant cultivation kill a lot of small animals though?


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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Knight View Post
    I know that you don't need both. I've had seen vegans if you believe that.
    Secondly i have also seen people that eat red meat everyday and there fine believe it or not.

    @Marc. I know some people can't have a conversation without getting heated but it's okay.
    Tell me that 10, 20 and 30 years down the line. Eating red meat every day will mess you up, might take some time but it will happen.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Tell me that 10, 20 and 30 years down the line. Eating red meat every day will mess you up, might take some time but it will happen.
    We definitely limit our red meat intake, and when we do eat it, we try to go with as lean as possible and organic if available. Otherwise we're eating fish (usually fresh), chicken, or seafood, or maybe lean ground turkey.





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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcsony View Post
    The difference between animal and plant would be the central nervous system


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    They are still living things though.

    They 'breathe' and 'eat' so to speak just differently. They grow and mature like animals. Of course not in the same way but you get my point. That lettuce that people eat was once alive until someone came along to harvest and thus killed it. Like it or not eating vegetables you are still consuming a dead carcass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naxi View Post
    Doesn't plant cultivation kill a lot of small animals though?
    It probably kills mice and such. With all the stuff food is sprayed with it's bound to poison mice wanting a taste.

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  6. #81
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Tell me that 10, 20 and 30 years down the line. Eating red meat every day will mess you up, might take some time but it will happen.
    Further evidence of my claim:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...y-bad-20120314

  8. Likes .RAID3N. wishes they had posted this first.
  9. #83
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    **** no. It's not a meal if there is no meat on the plate in my eyes. I love animals and I hate cruelty to animals but at the same time I couldn't live as a vegetarian. The human race didn't get to where we are without eating meat

    Now, vegans, aren't they the some of the most pretentious people to walk the planet?


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  10. #84
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    It's unfortunate that your previous experience has led to generalizations and stereotyping. I hope someday you see that each person is an individual, and personality is shaped by the vast multitude of life experiences as opposed to one seemingly insignificant detail like dietary preferences.

  11. #85
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    Yeah, i guess a sorry is in order here.

    Sorry...

  12. #86
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    I read Summer Tomato quite a bit.. a site with whom I consider a real credible source that is dedicated on diet/healthy eating.

    So this red meat talk..

    http://summertomato.com/red-meat-is-...us-all-or-not/

    Red Meat Is Killing Us All! Or not…

    Posted at 6:00 am under Diet,Disease,Science


    Photo by Irwin-Scott



    I’ve had about a zillion people ask me about a new study that came out in the Archives of Internal Medicine this week linking red meat consumption to increased mortality.

    Naturally some people are afraid their carne asada habit may be dooming them to an early death, and who could blame them with headlines like these?

    On the other hand, I suspect many of you have dismissed the study out of hand because it conflicts with your world view that animal foods only make good things happen.

    But in the interest of science and being grown ups, let’s take a look at the study and see what we can learn.


    First, it is worth mentioning that the study was fairly well-designed and conducted by a respectable team of scientists at Harvard. They reanalyzed data from two large prospective cohort studies: The Health Professionals Follow-Up Study (HPFS, 1986-200 and the Nurses Health Study (NHS, 1980-200.

    Both cohorts were large groups of health care professionals, which would presumably limit differences in education and income that can often confound health studies. The participants filled out regular food frequency questionnaires that have been previously validated as decently reliable (though food frequency questionnaires are notoriously unreliable).

    Importantly, all the participants were eating Western diets during what have come to be known as the least healthy decades in US history. Also important, during the course of the study both red and processed meat consumption declined in both men and women.
    “The mean daily intake of unprocessed red meat dropped from 0.75 to 0.63 servings from 1986 to 2006 in men and from 1.10 to 0.55 servings from 1980 to 2006 in women.”
    The authors never comment on what this reduced consumption means for their analysis, however, since they “created ***ulative averages of food intake from baseline to death from the repeated food frequency questionnaires.”

    According to the report, people who ate the most red meat were more likely to smoke, drink, eat far more calories and be overweight. They were also less likely to exercise and eat healthy foods like fruits, vegetables, whole grains and fish. Basically they were less healthy people with less healthy habits.


    The authors claim to have controlled for such lifestyle factors by doing statistical corrections for these variables, which is the industry standard for this type of analysis. They also performed a sensitivity analysis to see if any other dietary variable (including glycemic load) may have impacted their results. They did not detect any significant differences when controlling for these factors, which I admittedly find surprising.

    To their credit, the authors made an effort to distinguish between processed and unprocessed meats. Given the time during which the study took place, however, it’s unlikely that any of the participants were eating non-industrial, grass-fed and pastured meat. I think this is an important point, particularly when considering cancer mortality, since toxic compounds tend to ac***ulate in the fat of animals.


    In their analysis the authors estimated that for every one serving of red meat per day (defined as 3 oz), total mortality risk increased by 12% (20% for processed red meat alone, 13% for unprocessed). Heart disease risk increased by 16% for total red meat (21% for processed red meat, 18% for processed), and cancer risk increased 10% for total red meat (16% for processed, 10% unprocessed).


    To help put this in perspective, in the Nurses Health Study (the larger of the two) the group that ate the least meat consumed about a 1.5 oz (half a deck of cards) of meat per day and the group that ate the most consumed around 6.5 oz of meat per day (here’s the data I’m pulling from, using the 3 oz serving size for conversion).

    Remember, these numbers are for daily consumption. For the highest group, that’s nearly 3 pounds per week (45.5 oz). For the lowest group, under 1 pound (10.5 oz). Realistically, the lowest group probably ate red meat 1-2 times per week, while the highest group ate it once or twice a day. How we got from here to “all red meat will kill you” isn’t exactly clear.

    Interestingly, when they did an analysis to see the specific effect of saturated fat in meat it accounted for only 4% of the 16% estimated risk. This is fairly low considering that saturated fat is supposedly what makes meat so bad for us by raising cholesterol. But since the authors say that saturated fat could account for some of the increased risk, can we at least assume that those eating the most meat were more likely to have higher cholesterol? Not so fast. It turns out that in both cohorts, those in the lowest group of meat consumption were the most likely to have high cholesterol. (Thanks Denise Minger for making this astute observation).


    So what about the meat is killing us exactly? In addition to saturated fat, the authors also estimated that heme iron in meat (assumed to be a risk factor for some diseases) can account for another 5% of the risk, but they do not elaborate on how this might work. It is unclear what else about red meat may be increasing mortality risk, though preservation methods are suspected for the higher risk associated with processed meats.


    The authors also used some fancy statistical magic to estimate what would happen if the participants theoretically replaced one “daily” meat serving with an equal portion of either fish, poultry, nuts, legumes, low-fat dairy or whole grains and determined that mortality risk would decline 7%, 14%, 19%, 10%, 10% and 14%, respectively. It is important to remember though that *ahem* these are not real experiments but merely estimations based on the numbers and statistical models used in this study. At best an analysis like this can generate a hypothesis that could then be tested in a controlled trial.
    Fortunately controlled studies replacing meats (oh, and all the other crap in the Western diet) with other nutritious, whole foods have already been done. For example, in the Lyon Diet Heart Study (198 a group of patients who had already had a heart attack were instructed to change their diets. One group went on the low-fat American Heart Association diet, the other group adopted a Mediterranean style diet that included lots of green and root vegetables, fruits, legumes, more fish and poultry, less red meat, olive oil and no cream. After only 3 years the study was stopped by the ethics and safety committee because the Mediterranean diet group had a 70% reduced risk of death compared to those on the low-fat diet.
    Studies have consistently shown that replacing some dietary meat with fish and other sources of omega-3 fatty acids reduces the risk of heart disease. However, replacing red meat with anything else (even olive oil) seems to be pointless. For this reason I’ve always been skeptical that red meat is uniquely bad when the simpler explanation would be that eating more fish is uniquely good. I don’t see how this new analysis of old studies changes anything.


    Lastly, although the authors included controls for lifestyle factors I’m highly suspicious that people with so many unhealthy habits are at an increased risk of death primarily because of meat consumption. Consequently, all that I’d feel comfortable concluding from the new analysis is that in the context of a Western diet, eating something other than meat every once in awhile is probably a good idea. Outside of the Western diet? It’s much harder to say.
    What are your thoughts on the study?

    Last edited by Firefox; 03-31-2012 at 03:15.

  13. #87
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    This is something I've been thinking about lately. What I have done is eat less red meat and poultry and replaced it with veggie options and fish. Some of the healthiest people in the world(Nordic, Japanese) eat quite a bit of fish, and it's very hard for me to feel anything for fish. And other than by-catch(proper term for other animals that are not fish?) I don't see anything wrong with it. I still eat meat, but not anywhere near the quantities that I used to consume.

    Oh and has anybody brought up the financial aspects of eating healthier? I may be wrong, but our govt.(USA) seems to make it more expensive to eat healthier.

  14. #88
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    I don't feel bad about it. I love steaks...what man doesn't. Venison is great too. Deer season here is great. I can get me a nice one. i've never gutted it by myself. My neighbr is a 90 year old retired butcher. He has helped me clean and gut everything the past few years in exchange for a few slabs. It puts a whole new perspective on the food you eat when you see the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by btbam View Post
    I don't feel bad about it. I love steaks...what man doesn't. Venison is great too. Deer season here is great. I can get me a nice one. i've never gutted it by myself. My neighbr is a 90 year old retired butcher. He has helped me clean and gut everything the past few years in exchange for a few slabs. It puts a whole new perspective on the food you eat when you see the process.
    Uhh your process is not the same for the animals that end up at the meat section at the department store. They do some pretty cruel things to those animals.

  16. #90
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    You got to think of it this way, we're just at the top of the food chain.

    Other animals kill other animals too.
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  17. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave-The-Rave View Post
    You got to think of it this way, we're just at the top of the food chain.

    Other animals kill other animals too.
    But couldn't it be argued that we're more advanced than other animals? If so, why would we follow by their example.

  18. #92
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    i think we're less advanced than other animals.




  19. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by vegan_mekey View Post
    But couldn't it be argued that we're more advanced than other animals? If so, why would we follow by their example.
    Its not following their example though, all animals including humans follow a food chain. Its ingrained into them.
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    I eat meat everyday, I don't mind vegans/vegetarians unless they're protesting or trying to shove that eating meat is bad in my face. Also don't say being a Vegan/Vegetarian is better for you either, they're mostly pale, and scrawny, to be honest you need meat, I see you vegetarians and you need countless supplements to get everything you need that your missing in meat. I am against animal cruelty and I believe everyone that doesn't partake in the process is as well, but that doesn't mean we should all become salads.

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    No. Even though I am an animal lover and I hate any form of cruelty towards animals, I cannot deny my evolution.



  22. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by vegan_mekey View Post
    But couldn't it be argued that we're more advanced than other animals? If so, why would we follow by their example.
    You're right, we're a virus...that earth needs to rid of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    You're right, we're a virus...that earth needs to rid of.
    I'll be ok with that but I don't plan on dying before FFvs13 is released!... WOOHOO IMMORTALITY!
    if I am in the PS3 or 360 section I will NOT post about the competitor just to please people, if you want to know what I think about the competitor link me to a thread in the appropriate section

  24. Likes Sufi wishes they had posted this first.
  25. #98
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    If i stopped eatting any food science says is bad for me id be eatting air as everything else is classified as bad for you at one point or time or another.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Xelis View Post
    No. Even though I am an animal lover and I hate any form of cruelty towards animals, I cannot deny my evolution.
    Or my hunger!

    Last edited by Kwes; 04-01-2012 at 02:12.
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  27. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave-The-Rave View Post
    Its not following their example though, all animals including humans follow a food chain. Its ingrained into them.
    The current agricultural systems that take place in a majority of 1st world countries (specifically this one) does not mimic a natural food chain. It seems as if you are just cherry-picking dogmatic interpretations of natural (non-human) traits to then inappropriately ascribe to human constructs, solely in an effort to try to rationalize your choice.

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