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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Explain what you mean by properly.
    Leave the country in a solid stable position for it to grow and prosper enough to become a contributor to the worldwide economy.

    Not perched on a ledge teetering on the brink of civil war and unrest with the possibility of being taken over by religious fanatics or even more corrupt "leaders".

    I know the Iraq was wasn't popular (or even justified in the first place) but I fear due to the way and manner in which we left our pullout may come back to haunt us in the near future and possibly make all our efforts there in the past 8 years meaningless.

    We should have never have been there in the first place, but with all that we have done there the only way to go is to make sure all our goals are fulfilled as best as possible before pulling out.

    The last thing we need is another country pissed at us (in the middle east especially) with reasons or motivation to cause problems for us in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    That's totally BS. In order to get out of this recession you have to spend money. There is no way around it. Our trillions of dollars of dept was there before he took office. When Clinton left office we had a surplus. Bush takes office and in 8 years we have trillions of dollars in dept. What wrong with that picture? The real reason people don't want him for president is because they never did. People are still angry about what happened in 2008. That's includes some Democrats. They still hold a grudge because he defeated Hilary Clinton. As for Republicans, they will say almost anything to appeal to their party. Just look at all the ludicrous things they say.

    1. Obama is anti-American
    2. They question his family values( there is a republican candidate who has had two divorces over affairs and married his mistress)
    2. he wasn't born here( which is plain stupid. Why would you wait til a guy is president to question his citizenship?)
    3. he is weak on foreign policy( he has killed more top Al qaeda leaders in his 3 years than Bush did in 9-11 happened on Bush's watch not his.

    4. Iraq was a failure because we ended it(never mind we spent close to a trillion dollars there and it was unfunded)
    Plus that pullout date was set by President Bush.
    5.They are against his health care plan(who was the last president who actually attempted to fix it)
    6. he is anti-Israel( when the prime minister of Israel has stated that his administration has done more than anyone in the past)
    The list goes on and on. No he hasn't been perfect. But what president has? I'm a independent and right now the only person who iv'e seen who is remotely presidential is Huntsman and maybe Paul. Paul does give me the creeps on some of his views though.

    just from your first sentence, no it's not bull****. keep with the times and stop trying to make him look like he has no fault in any of it. "in order to get out of this recession you have to spend money". ummm, no you don't, not in the current state of our debt. It still isn't working at all. This entire recession shouldn't have lasted this long, period. there are no "well, but, what if, blah blah blah".

    So Bush starts the debt (I personally think you should dive a bit deeper then that, you are in shallow waters) he started the debt by spending money foolishy, and we all know this, the guy was a gump. Then Obama comes in and spends more money and your excuse is "Well, herp derp herp derp you have to spend money to get out of the recession".

    If spending money was the reason we were in the recession in the first place, then how in the blue @#^! are you going to get out of it by spending more money? it's freakin stupid to even think that way, it makes absolutely no sense man. LOL

    take a close look at how much he has spent since he became president and what he has spent the money on. There really isn't anything more to say and it's clear you are just rooting for him because the guy is an idiot and it causes meaningless debates on his behalf.

    yea and after bush got us trillions of dollars in debt, then Obama comes in and spends even more money. derp! trying to pass ridiculous bills, has a ridiculous Med plan, funds stupid **** (yea go look it up), creates a failing stimulus package, people that know how to hold onto money knew from the start that the multiple stimulus packages wouldn't work. ugh


    now I bet you are going to come in and repeat "well he inherited it" even though I already covered that horrible and lame excuse which has no legs for it to stand on. LOL
    Last edited by Bigdoggy; 01-11-2012 at 04:19.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdoggy View Post
    just from your first sentence, no it's not bull****. keep with the times and stop trying to make him look like he has no fault in any of it.
    I am with the times. People like you should stop blaming our problems on one person or one party. Next time read the whole post and you will see that I said Obama hasn't been perfect but if you think he is to blame for our economy and other issues then you are really naive.
    So Bush starts the debt (I personally think you should dive a bit deeper then that, you are in shallow waters) he started the debt by spending money foolishy, and we all know this, the guy was a gump. Then Obama comes in and spends more money and your excuse is "Well, herp derp herp derp you have to spend money to get out of the recession".
    How else are you gonna get out of the recession smart guy? You have to have jobs and to create those jobs you have to spend money. In return consumers will go out on the economy and spend money which will stimulate the economy.

    If spending money was the reason we were in the recession in the first place, then how in the blue @#^! are you going to get out of it by spending more money? it's freakin stupid to even think that way, it makes absolutely no sense man. LOL
    It makes perfect sense. To make money you have to spend money. The reason we are in this is because we spent money that we didn't have which made perfect sense to end the war in Iraq. Why keep borrowing money to spend in another country.

    take a close look at how much he has spent since he became president and what he has spent the money on. There really isn't anything more to say and it's clear you are just rooting for him because the guy is an idiot and it causes meaningless debates on his behalf.
    if he is an idiot then the ones wanting his job are idiots to the second power...lol Listen, yes he has spent money. Like I said before,there is no way around that. You think the economy is just gonna jump start itself.

    yea and after bush got us trillions of dollars in debt, then Obama comes in and spends even more money. derp! trying to pass ridiculous bills, has a ridiculous Med plan, funds stupid **** (yea go look it up), creates a failing stimulus package, people that know how to hold onto money knew from the start that the multiple stimulus packages wouldn't work. ugh
    What ridiculous bill may that be? I'm sure you can elaborate since you brought it up. Please elaborate on the failed stimulus packages. Also while your at it you can elaborate how that package saved the auto industry and how their profits are up because of it.

    now I bet you are going to come in and repeat "well he inherited it" even though I already covered that horrible and lame excuse which has no legs for it to stand on. LOL
    I don't need to because you already said it. He is responsible for some of the depth but so was Bush and the republican controlled congress from 2002-2006.

    Here is the problem with people like you. You regurgitate everything a certain party wants you to believe instead of looking at the facts. You may not like Obama for personal reasons or whatever reason you choose, but you are delusional if you think our problems will just go away if he leaves the white house. Now like i said before, I belong to no party and Obama is far from perfect and even farther from being an idiot.

    Leave the country in a solid stable position for it to grow and prosper enough to become a contributor to the worldwide economy.

    Not perched on a ledge teetering on the brink of civil war and unrest with the possibility of being taken over by religious fanatics or even more corrupt "leaders".

    I know the Iraq was wasn't popular (or even justified in the first place) but I fear due to the way and manner in which we left our pullout may come back to haunt us in the near future and possibly make all our efforts there in the past 8 years meaningless.

    We should have never have been there in the first place, but with all that we have done there the only way to go is to make sure all our goals are fulfilled as best as possible before pulling out.

    The last thing we need is another country pissed at us (in the middle east especially) with reasons or motivation to cause problems for us in the future.
    Dude, it was time to go. 8 years, over 800 billion dollars and over 4000 lives lost. If you ask me we should of left years ago. Why waste all our precious resources on a country who could give a **** about what we attempted to accomplish there. We have done all we can do for them. Its up to them to take control of their own country. All we were doing being there was getting into more death and wasting precious lives. IMO Iraq isn't worth dying for.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 01-11-2012 at 05:17.

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    1990 - Gulf War

    2003 - Iraq War

    20xx - ???

    Doing what we did to Iraq created a big problem. We removed the main check to Iran's power in that region of the Middle East. Without Iraq there to counter Iran they can do as they please and continue to push their hostile agenda in their section of the Middle East

    Mark my words Iraq will come back to haunt us sometime in the near future.

    If you want to be angry about something be angry about Afghanistan. The outlook there is grim. There hasn't been peace there for the past ~30 years. When we leave Afghanistan we are likely to have left it not much better off than it was before we came.

    Also read this, it will enlighten you to the perspective of a person on the other side of the Iraq War:

    http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/20...1_archive.html

    Here is a perspective of an American soldier:

    http://turningtables.blogspot.com/20...1_archive.html

  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    1990 - Gulf War

    2003 - Iraq War

    20xx - ???

    Doing what we did to Iraq created a big problem. We removed the main check to Iran's power in that region of the Middle East. Without Iraq there to counter Iran they can do as they please and continue to push their hostile agenda in their section of the Middle East

    Mark my words Iraq will come back to haunt us sometime in the near future.

    If you want to be angry about something be angry about Afghanistan. The outlook there is grim. There hasn't been peace there for the past ~30 years. When we leave Afghanistan we are likely to have left it not much better off than it was before we came.

    Also read this, it will enlighten you to the perspective of a person on the other side of the Iraq War:

    http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/20...1_archive.html

    Here is a perspective of an American soldier:

    http://turningtables.blogspot.com/20...1_archive.html
    If Iraq fails to become a decent society it won't have anything to do with us pulling out of there. Its all on them. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

    oh, i don't need to read a blog from a perspective of a American soldier. My avatar isn't for ****s and giggles you know. I know first hand what went on in Iraq and whats going on in Afghan. I know for a fact that most iraqis and afghans don't want us in their country and could care less about how many of us die in that process .
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 01-11-2012 at 05:38.

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    If Iraq fails to become a decent society it won't have anything to do with us pulling out of there. Its all on them. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

    oh, i don't need to read a blog from a perspective of a American soldier. My avatar isn't for ****s and giggles you know. I know first hand what went on in Iraq and whats going on in Afghan. I know for a fact that most iraqis and afghans don't want us in their country and could care less about how many of us die in that process .
    Right, but the difference is that this guy did support stuff (networking mostly iirc) and had a bit more time to reflect on these sorts things.

    I encourage you to read the first blog anyways, probably the best source for insight on what an educated Iraqi felt during the various stages of the war. You will see how the optimism turned to dismay to hate.

    We would all fee the same way if we were in that situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Right, but the difference is that this guy did support stuff (networking mostly iirc) and had a bit more time to reflect on these sorts things.

    I encourage you to read the first blog anyways, probably the best source for insight on what an educated Iraqi felt during the various stages of the war. You will see how the optimism turned to dismay to hate.

    We would all fee the same way if we were in that situation.
    Like I said before I don't need to read it. The war in Iraq only confirmed what we already knew. The Iraqi people don't like Americans. It really didn't matter if we invaded or not. They already hated us long before we got there. I'm not saying that all of them do but the majority of them have been like programmed to be anti-american since childbirth. If they fail to become a decent part of society I won't feel once once of sympathy for them. We shed so much blood and sacrificed way too much for for them not to appreciate it. Last time I checked they were the ones who were dancing in the streets and celebrating when we were attacked on 9-11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I am with the times. People like you should stop blaming our problems on one person or one party. Next time read the whole post and you will see that I said Obama hasn't been perfect but if you think he is to blame for our economy and other issues then you are really naive.
    How else are you gonna get out of the recession smart guy? You have to have jobs and to create those jobs you have to spend money. In return consumers will go out on the economy and spend money which will stimulate the economy.
    Now i just stated this in anothe thread but it is pretty applicable here. The current recession, like all recessions was created by the "Boom and Bust" cycle.

    The Fed pretty much created this current economic collapse through the housing market. Basically the Fed created the bubble by expanding credit. They did this by reducing interest rates to historic lows and printing mass ammount of money. The problem is, this expanded the credit beyond the limits of actual loanable funds. People invest more, but it is all a facade because this new money isn't real. People are loaning funds that don't exist, its just inflation. Consuption does increase, but it reveals the market has too few resources for the investments and permanent waste is accrued by the mal-investments. Inflation rises, interest rates rises, and the economy collapses. The value of the dollar falls and the investment projects (the housing market) is sold for cost because the price was set artifically high.

    In order to get us out of this ditch, we need to cordinate savings with time and investment; saving for the sake of future investment cordinated by interest rates. This creates stable sustainable growth. The housing market is particularly sensitive to busts because it is a time sensitive market. When the market collapses, unemployment rises because it is no long profitable to keep them employed and it takes a period of time (recession) to readjust the capital and labor into different sectors. Spending more money, like you suggest only sustains the boom longer, makes it bigger, and when the resources we didn't have to begin with run out, the fall is harder. The best thing we can do is let the market readjust itself and reallocate labor and capital to new markets. During a recession people want to hoard money which shrinks aggregate demand. Only way to keep them buying from the remaining markets is to give them the comfortable ammount of money. This is often done by the Fed or the government redistributing wealth, but instead of taxing one and giving it to another, just lower taxes on everybody and everybody gets more money for current consumption and future consumption.

    Somebody get me a doctor, I ain't feelin' ill ...But I ain't feelin' this at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Like I said before I don't need to read it. The war in Iraq only confirmed what we already knew. The Iraqi people don't like Americans. It really didn't matter if we invaded or not. They already hated us long before we got there. I'm not saying that all of them do but the majority of them have been like programmed to be anti-american since childbirth. If they fail to become a decent part of society I won't feel once once of sympathy for them. We shed so much blood and sacrificed way too much for for them not to appreciate it. Last time I checked they were the ones who were dancing in the streets and celebrating when we were attacked on 9-11.
    Do you feel the same way about the Iranians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I am with the times. People like you should stop blaming our problems on one person or one party. Next time read the whole post and you will see that I said Obama hasn't been perfect but if you think he is to blame for our economy and other issues then you are really naive.
    How else are you gonna get out of the recession smart guy? You have to have jobs and to create those jobs you have to spend money. In return consumers will go out on the economy and spend money which will stimulate the economy.



    It makes perfect sense. To make money you have to spend money. The reason we are in this is because we spent money that we didn't have which made perfect sense to end the war in Iraq. Why keep borrowing money to spend in another country.


    if he is an idiot then the ones wanting his job are idiots to the second power...lol Listen, yes he has spent money. Like I said before,there is no way around that. You think the economy is just gonna jump start itself.


    What ridiculous bill may that be? I'm sure you can elaborate since you brought it up. Please elaborate on the failed stimulus packages. Also while your at it you can elaborate how that package saved the auto industry and how their profits are up because of it.

    I don't need to because you already said it. He is responsible for some of the depth but so was Bush and the republican controlled congress from 2002-2006.

    Here is the problem with people like you. You regurgitate everything a certain party wants you to believe instead of looking at the facts. You may not like Obama for personal reasons or whatever reason you choose, but you are delusional if you think our problems will just go away if he leaves the white house. Now like i said before, I belong to no party and Obama is far from perfect and even farther from being an idiot.



    Dude, it was time to go. 8 years, over 800 billion dollars and over 4000 lives lost. If you ask me we should of left years ago. Why waste all our precious resources on a country who could give a **** about what we attempted to accomplish there. We have done all we can do for them. Its up to them to take control of their own country. All we were doing being there was getting into more death and wasting precious lives. IMO Iraq isn't worth dying for.
    it's such a great morning today. I just made steak and eggs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Do you feel the same way about the Iranians?
    Could care less about them too. I'm sure the the majority of them feel the same about us.

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    Couldn't care less! Oops wrong thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Could care less about them too. I'm sure the the majority of them feel the same about us.
    You would be wrong about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    You would be wrong about that.
    I could be wrong but I doubt it.

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    That's laughable. You can't base that off of articles. I could link you to ones saying the opposite.

    http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...hates_america/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    That's laughable. You can't base that off of articles. I could link you to ones saying the opposite.

    http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...hates_america/
    Do you understand that the words of the government are not the words of the people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Do you understand that the words of the government are not the words of the people?
    I sure do. The majority of Iranians have a negative view of America. Don't believe the hype dude.

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    I'm definitely digging Ron Paul. Good guy. Granted he states some crazy **** now and again, but for the most part the majority of his ideas are sound.

    The biggest flaw I see with the Republican platform at this time is the whole "undo everything Obama has done" approach. They want to make it as if Obama never existed and wipe every piece of major legislation he as enacted off the books. Wipe him from history in a sense. Douchebags to the 4th power. All we got was half assed versions of what was promised by Obama due to his "negotiations" with the republicans, if that's what you want to call it. HA. The republicans have had it their way the past 4 years. They've completed degraded or destroyed any good legislation that was brought forth by the executive branch into crap.

    The people wanted full on socialized medicine. We did not get it. Maybe one of these days we'll get a president in office with the balls to get it passed, and a government less focused on sucking the wealthy's **** and more focused on representing the people. Ya know, the people that make under 250K a year.

    GET RID OF LOBBYING IN WASHINGTON. Maybe when that happens we'll actually have a deocracy again. Get candidates in office that actually know what it's like to be a middle class citizen, or know the pains of financial struggle. The silver spoons dip****s we have in office right no don't have a ****ing clue.

    BRING BACK THE GOLD STANDARD. Stop letting people print money for the sake of it. Inflation will destroy us at the rate we are going.
    undefined


    I don't really need a water cooler/remote control as of right now.

  21. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by btbam View Post
    Now i just stated this in anothe thread but it is pretty applicable here. The current recession, like all recessions was created by the "Boom and Bust" cycle.

    The Fed pretty much created this current economic collapse through the housing market. Basically the Fed created the bubble by expanding credit. They did this by reducing interest rates to historic lows and printing mass ammount of money. The problem is, this expanded the credit beyond the limits of actual loanable funds. People invest more, but it is all a facade because this new money isn't real. People are loaning funds that don't exist, its just inflation. Consuption does increase, but it reveals the market has too few resources for the investments and permanent waste is accrued by the mal-investments. Inflation rises, interest rates rises, and the economy collapses. The value of the dollar falls and the investment projects (the housing market) is sold for cost because the price was set artifically high.

    In order to get us out of this ditch, we need to cordinate savings with time and investment; saving for the sake of future investment cordinated by interest rates. This creates stable sustainable growth. The housing market is particularly sensitive to busts because it is a time sensitive market. When the market collapses, unemployment rises because it is no long profitable to keep them employed and it takes a period of time (recession) to readjust the capital and labor into different sectors. Spending more money, like you suggest only sustains the boom longer, makes it bigger, and when the resources we didn't have to begin with run out, the fall is harder. The best thing we can do is let the market readjust itself and reallocate labor and capital to new markets. During a recession people want to hoard money which shrinks aggregate demand. Only way to keep them buying from the remaining markets is to give them the comfortable ammount of money. This is often done by the Fed or the government redistributing wealth, but instead of taxing one and giving it to another, just lower taxes on everybody and everybody gets more money for current consumption and future consumption.

    I agree on much of this, I think the concept of relying on stimulus packages to boost the economy is just faulty reasoning. It's a poor idea.

    However, one must concede that we do have to raise taxes eventually to help repay what has been done. It's inevitable, apart from a much-wished restructuring of our inefficient and abusive tax system... But that is not likely to happen.

    I would say cut back government in the mean time and slowly up the tax rates when we're sure it won't blow back in our face. Then, after time has passed, lower them again (usual routine). Hopefully we will get a massive overhaul to our tax code eventually.

    And by 'overhaul' i mean throw it out the window. All tens of thousands of pages of it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I agree on much of this, I think the concept of relying on stimulus packages to boost the economy is just faulty reasoning. It's a poor idea.

    However, one must concede that we do have to raise taxes eventually to help repay what has been done. It's inevitable, apart from a much-wished restructuring of our inefficient and abusive tax system... But that is not likely to happen.

    I would say cut back government in the mean time and slowly up the tax rates when we're sure it won't blow back in our face. Then, after time has passed, lower them again (usual routine). Hopefully we will get a massive overhaul to our tax code eventually.

    And by 'overhaul' i mean throw it out the window. All tens of thousands of pages of it.
    the problem with that is that it doesn't get any lower. your taxes just keep on going and then they get raised again and again, otherwise we would have never seen any inflation. Since inflation is greatly favored by obvious ****heads in the white house that don't know any better, once they raise taxes, don't expect it to ever go back down. it's the same thing with the tax cuts and people getting money back, after that happens the taxes end up going up because now they need that money back. LOL

    I personally think we are just royally screwed from here on out.

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    Gingrich is just that evil in the debates and holds nothing back and in a way i like it a wee bit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdoggy View Post
    the problem with that is that it doesn't get any lower. your taxes just keep on going and then they get raised again and again, otherwise we would have never seen any inflation. Since inflation is greatly favored by obvious ****heads in the white house that don't know any better, once they raise taxes, don't expect it to ever go back down. it's the same thing with the tax cuts and people getting money back, after that happens the taxes end up going up because now they need that money back. LOL

    I personally think we are just royally screwed from here on out.

    Eh.. Except that isn't true. WW2 tax rates were insane and due to us needing to fund the war. In the decades proceeding it taxes dropped hugely.

    Taxes are always subject to fluctuation based on voter outcry and whims. The real devil is how we go about taxing people... Which never really gets less oppressive.

    I hate the government just as much as the next libertarian, but we gotta deal with reality. We spent too much and we have to pay it back. I'm ok with paying it back, so long as we learn to not pull this kind of nonsense again.

    Reign in the political elite.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Eh.. Except that isn't true. WW2 tax rates were insane and due to us needing to fund the war. In the decades proceeding it taxes dropped hugely.

    Taxes are always subject to fluctuation based on voter outcry and whims. The real devil is how we go about taxing people... Which never really gets less oppressive.

    I hate the government just as much as the next libertarian, but we gotta deal with reality. We spent too much and we have to pay it back. I'm ok with paying it back, so long as we learn to not pull this kind of nonsense again.

    Reign in the political elite.
    Fund a war?!?! What the hell is that

    Somebody get me a doctor, I ain't feelin' ill ...But I ain't feelin' this at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Eh.. Except that isn't true. WW2 tax rates were insane and due to us needing to fund the war. In the decades proceeding it taxes dropped hugely.

    Taxes are always subject to fluctuation based on voter outcry and whims. The real devil is how we go about taxing people... Which never really gets less oppressive.

    I hate the government just as much as the next libertarian, but we gotta deal with reality. We spent too much and we have to pay it back. I'm ok with paying it back, so long as we learn to not pull this kind of nonsense again.

    Reign in the political elite.
    there are other ways to pay it back then to just raise taxes. If they were to raise taxes right now, it wouldn't matter because with only that amount it would still take more then 15 years to get out of this debt. The best way to do it is what RP suggests and that is to cut government spending. Did you know that government spending exceeds over a trillion dollars a year. They have funding in certain government branches that are over billions of dollars, once you add them all up they go over the trillion dollar mark. Things such as defense for our country is important so that should stay but there are a lot and I mean a lot of government branches that costs way to much that do way to little. take those and the debt will start to decrease faster, take out more and it's even faster.

    this country is so screwed up right now, it really needs a doctor.
    Last edited by Bigdoggy; 01-13-2012 at 03:40.

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