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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuguy View Post
    He didn't say the PS3 was outselling, or inferring someone did. What his question was, and it was valid, is if exclusives (read 1st party) games and the online are so awesome and such, why is the 360 still outselling it.It is a valid point because Sony does have a $#@! ton more exclusive CORE games, and free online, but yet is being outpaced at present.
    Well thats because until now the casual market was pretty much untapped by the HD consoles. Kinect is the reason for the sales boost. Before Kinect Sony was closing the gap. And MS is aggressively marketing Kinect and cranking out the casual games for it. The casual market gave Nintendo the largest userbase of all the consoles. Core gamers are the minority.
    Last edited by mistercrow; 01-24-2012 at 23:09.

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    Sony is doing the exact same thing with Move to boost sales. Practically every casual Move game on the PS3 is a knockoff of the Wii titles.
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  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    Well thats because until now the casual market was pretty much untapped by the HD consoles. Kinect is the reason for the sales boost. Before Kinect Sony was closing the gap. And MS is aggressively marketing Kinect and cranking out the casual games for it.

    yeah, good point.

    MS is tapping the casuals and getting those big sales.

    Neither company has a failing strategy, so I don't look at it like that. MS just doesn't rely on 1st party exclusives, while Sony uses those as a strong draw to their system which historically has had substandard (in comparison to most titles) ports of 3rd party games. Before the sharks jump that comment, that is a pretty indisputable fact that the PS3 has been shafted with plenty of half assed, or underperforming titles in the 3rd party realm. No fault of Sony's or MS... that blame rests solely on dev's backs.
    LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuguy View Post
    yeah, good point.MS is tapping the casuals and getting those big sales.Neither company has a failing strategy, so I don't look at it like that.
    I dont either. But as a core gamer I prefer Sony's strategy to MS. But from a business standpoint yeah, MS strategy is working well for them. As far as ports go its not as much of a problem now but does still happen with games like Rage and Skyrim for example. And once in awhile it goes the other way like with FF and BF3. But I do understand your point and its a valid one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    I dont either. But as a core gamer I prefer Sony's strategy to MS. But from a business standpoint yeah, MS strategy is working well for them. As far as ports go its not as much of a problem now but does still happen with games like Rage and Skyrim for example. And once in awhile it goes the other way like with FF and BF3. But I do understand your point and its a valid one.
    I would prefer MS to make some core games too... sadly for me, the kinect is getting more playtime with the kids which is why you don't see me on the 360 much these days LOL
    LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuguy View Post
    i would prefer ms to make some core games too... Sadly for me, the kinect is getting more playtime with the kids which is why you don't see me on the 360 much these days lol
    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    I haven't heard anybody here claiming that. Having more core games to choose from because of having more core exclusives as well as all the multiplats makes the PS3 the better choice for core gamers. Thats what I'm hearing. Nobody here has said that the PS3 is outselling the 360. In fact people here have acknowledged that the 360 has widened the sales gap because of Kinect and tapping into the casual market with their change of focus.
    Cuguy summed it up pretty well, thanks Cuguy!

    Sony does have a crap load of exclusives, and some very good ones as well. Since the underlying theme of this thread is MS IP's (exclusives) and their importance, or lack thereof, one would think that the PS3 would be crushing the 360 by now. So how important is a crap load of IP's, or is a good solid core of handful of IP's really all that is necessary?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Dyack View Post
    Cuguy summed it up pretty well, thanks Cuguy! Sony does have a crap load of exclusives, and some very good ones as well. Since the underlying theme of this thread is MS IP's (exclusives) and their importance, or lack thereof, one would think that the PS3 would be crushing the 360 by now. So how important is a crap load of IP's, or is a good solid core of handful of IP's really all that is necessary?
    I just explained why in my earlier post to cuguy. And I never said that a crap load of IP's was neccessary for sales. If you would just take the time to read my posts properly you wouldn't need to keep asking me the same question over and over again. Cuguy understood what I said so just refer to those posts for your answer. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.
    Last edited by mistercrow; 01-25-2012 at 00:12.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    replies in bold.
    You forget that the Major advances in the online infrastructure come with each console launch. The updates released after the console launch usually refine the existing features, fix bugs and add new content options (typically non gaming related).

    As for future features that add to the gaming experience, I can't really list specifics, but I'm sure MS has a whole subdivision based on/dedicated to collecting input from gamers and developers to base new features on.

    You also forget that the goal isn't just to copy what a competitor has done, but to do what they do better. From what I've seen, sony hasn't been doing that with any of their software. That is the downside of a hardware company competing with a software company.

    Just because you don't own a windows phone, doesn't mean others wont. Windows phone is a major threat to android and the iphone. It takes the best philosophies of either side and unites them. That will become more and more lucrative as people tire of the fragmentation and chaos of android as well as the lack of options with the iphone. I'm sure you'll come around in time.

    Just on the software side there is a lot of things they can work on to improve the kinect experience with the existing hardware. When you combine that with better hardware a few years into the lifecycle of the next xbox then you pretty much have all the solutions there.

    Also Kinect doesn't have to replace the controller, that's not what I'm implying, however it can supplement it substantially.

    I find it funny that you state you aren't suffering from anything when your words say otherwise. The only way MS and Sony can exist in the console realm is to target Hardcore gamers from day 1 of a new console launch. There is no other way for them. Nintendo rules the casual market. Suggesting that MS may continue the course they are currently on with the 360 for the next xbox is as absurd as somebody stating that the Hardcore gamers will all pick up wii u's for the improved hardware/better graphics it will have over the ps3/360 neglecting to wait for the successors for those two consoles. Like nintendo hopes they would, which won't happen.

    I don't know what more you need but mynd did a good job of explaining MS's strategy. It's pretty clear they know what they need to do to be successful. Their track record only makes this statement more evident.

    People said the original xbox would flop and MS had no business in the console market. But they did fairly well and established their brand. They also created the first broadband only online game service which further solidified their existence.

    Then with the 360 they outdid sony which seemed like an impossible task last generation.

    Now they just have o eclipse Nintendo which shouldn't bee too hard considering that the wii u offers casuals little more than the original wii.

    MS doesn't get involved in a segment to lose, the do it to win and be #1/at the top.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost-Rhayne View Post
    What can MS offer other than XGC, party chat and easy connectivity to friends next gen when it comes to gaming? Video chat in game perhaps? I don't care for subscription apps or having a cable like game box. I will buy a games console to game predominantly. Vita has already accomplished XCG and connectivity and it is illogical to think that such features wont be in PS4.



    That's nice that people will be able to check their friends status and see their achievements. Meanwhile Sony will have Vita linked PS4, with android based phones all able to connect to the Sony network and play content. In fact Vita offers something that MS cannot attain,and that is taking your games on the go or playing with friends while youre out and about. That's real convergence.




    I would honestly love to see this, but so far devs have been sitting around, scratching their heads trying to figure out how to make games without the controls that they have been accustomed to for decades.







    Forecasts are best when they are based upon current evidence or trends.



    Nice approach. I rather the one who keeps on going...



    When Sony releases with all the bells and whistles of last gen in terms of online experience, with their $#@! load of first party studios, at a reasonable price (of which we saw in their approach of creating Vita to a budget), then MS had better have a big wad of cash to splash at 3rd party again...

    Sony also isn't the same company they were 10 years ago...they have grown,innovated and diversified and are in a VERY strong place of their own heading into next gen with software and hardware.


    Anyway, this is off topic and is for another thread. We are talking about games here, not online services.
    For your first part see my response above. All I can say is you are looking at the small picture, its doesn't come down to things as simple as cross game chat and social network "connectivity".

    Also it doesn't matter if those features are in the PS4, it matters how well though out and implemented they are.

    Last I checked you could link your psp to the ps3 to do certain things and that didn't go anywhere.

    And no, Vita doesn't offer something you can't get with the xbox. I have little reason to believe MS won't be bringing full xbl arcade games to WP7 and connect phones to each other through xbl.

    Obviously when a new peripheral as different as kinect comes out it will take time for developers to get used to it and be able to do meaningful things with kinect. That's why they focused on casual games first because those were the easiest to modify to make use of kinect. Hardcore games are much more difficult, though we are seeing progress with games like Ghost Recon Future Soldier and Mass Effect 3.

    You aren't likely to see proper seamless kinect integration till the next generation. (Though MS could do something with Halo4)

    My forecasts are based on history, what more could you want.

    There is no point to stick with the one that keeps going when they are facing bankruptcy by doing so.

    You conclusion is flawed.

    I made a point in an earlier post that if sony didn't have exclusives and tried to compete with the xbox as a multiplat console it would fail. Funny enough, even with exclusives they are behind the xbox. What does that say.

    Also the online experience still isn't at the same level as xbl now. I doubt that's going to change much in a year or 2.

    You were right about the cash though, and MS will have more than ever before.
    Finally I'm not looking at sony from 10 years ago. I start with the launch of the ps3 in 2006 to the present. And I don't see much.

    Perhaps if sony actually leveraged marketing properly to sell its exclusive games I might be impressed. But the only explanation (which is a pathetic one) is that due to number of exclusives available gamers would obviously buy less. The problem with that statement is that Sony's exclusives aren't all in the same genre, or target the same segments of the gaming market.

    It is highly unlikely to find a gamer that would buy all of sony's exclusives in a year or even a majority of them. Most people are only interested in a few games each year, they couldn't care less about the others.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/3...h_Hardware.php

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/3...ole_Trends.php

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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    I just explained why in my earlier post to cuguy. And I never said that a crap load of IP's was neccessary for sales. If you would just take the time to read my posts properly you wouldn't need to keep asking me the same question over and over again. Cuguy understood what I said so just refer to those posts for your answer. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.
    First of all I only responded to one of your posts. This is the next one.

    Second, I was explaining myself, which I feel is the appropriate thing to do instead of merely allowing someone else do it for me.

    Third, the same question was posed again for rhetorical purposes.

    Just don't act like a jerk if you don't like my posts. Either ignore me or block me. There is absolutely no reason for an attitude like that.


  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Dyack View Post
    First of all I only responded to one of your posts. This is the next one. Second, I was explaining myself, which I feel is the appropriate thing to do instead of merely allowing someone else do it for me. Third, the same question was posed again for rhetorical purposes.Just don't act like a jerk if you don't like my posts. Either ignore me or block me. There is absolutely no reason for an attitude like that.
    lol Attitude? I was merely explaining myself to you as well. Since you quoted me in your post I assumed your rhetorical question was directed at me. If it wasnt directed at me then just say so instead of adding a childish insult. As far as acting like a jerk goes you would do well to take your own advice. And by all means feel free to block or ignore my posts as well if you cant handle my opinions. I wont block or ignore yours but instead I will continue to either agree or disagree with them. Now if thats a problem then perhaps internet forums just aren't a good place for you.
    Last edited by mistercrow; 01-25-2012 at 05:24.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    You forget that the Major advances in the online infrastructure come with each console launch. The updates released after the console launch usually refine the existing features, fix bugs and add new content options (typically non gaming related).

    As for future features that add to the gaming experience, I can't really list specifics, but I'm sure MS has a whole subdivision based on/dedicated to collecting input from gamers and developers to base new features on.

    You also forget that the goal isn't just to copy what a competitor has done, but to do what they do better. From what I've seen, sony hasn't been doing that with any of their software. That is the downside of a hardware company competing with a software company.

    Just because you don't own a windows phone, doesn't mean others wont. Windows phone is a major threat to android and the iphone. It takes the best philosophies of either side and unites them. That will become more and more lucrative as people tire of the fragmentation and chaos of android as well as the lack of options with the iphone. I'm sure you'll come around in time.

    Just on the software side there is a lot of things they can work on to improve the kinect experience with the existing hardware. When you combine that with better hardware a few years into the lifecycle of the next xbox then you pretty much have all the solutions there.

    Also Kinect doesn't have to replace the controller, that's not what I'm implying, however it can supplement it substantially.

    I find it funny that you state you aren't suffering from anything when your words say otherwise. The only way MS and Sony can exist in the console realm is to target Hardcore gamers from day 1 of a new console launch. There is no other way for them. Nintendo rules the casual market. Suggesting that MS may continue the course they are currently on with the 360 for the next xbox is as absurd as somebody stating that the Hardcore gamers will all pick up wii u's for the improved hardware/better graphics it will have over the ps3/360 neglecting to wait for the successors for those two consoles. Like nintendo hopes they would, which won't happen.

    I don't know what more you need but mynd did a good job of explaining MS's strategy. It's pretty clear they know what they need to do to be successful. Their track record only makes this statement more evident.

    People said the original xbox would flop and MS had no business in the console market. But they did fairly well and established their brand. They also created the first broadband only online game service which further solidified their existence.

    Then with the 360 they outdid sony which seemed like an impossible task last generation.

    Now they just have o eclipse Nintendo which shouldn't bee too hard considering that the wii u offers casuals little more than the original wii.

    MS doesn't get involved in a segment to lose, the do it to win and be #1/at the top.





    For your first part see my response above. All I can say is you are looking at the small picture, its doesn't come down to things as simple as cross game chat and social network "connectivity".

    Also it doesn't matter if those features are in the PS4, it matters how well though out and implemented they are.

    Last I checked you could link your psp to the ps3 to do certain things and that didn't go anywhere.

    And no, Vita doesn't offer something you can't get with the xbox. I have little reason to believe MS won't be bringing full xbl arcade games to WP7 and connect phones to each other through xbl.

    Obviously when a new peripheral as different as kinect comes out it will take time for developers to get used to it and be able to do meaningful things with kinect. That's why they focused on casual games first because those were the easiest to modify to make use of kinect. Hardcore games are much more difficult, though we are seeing progress with games like Ghost Recon Future Soldier and Mass Effect 3.

    You aren't likely to see proper seamless kinect integration till the next generation. (Though MS could do something with Halo4)

    My forecasts are based on history, what more could you want.

    There is no point to stick with the one that keeps going when they are facing bankruptcy by doing so.

    You conclusion is flawed.

    I made a point in an earlier post that if sony didn't have exclusives and tried to compete with the xbox as a multiplat console it would fail. Funny enough, even with exclusives they are behind the xbox. What does that say.

    Also the online experience still isn't at the same level as xbl now. I doubt that's going to change much in a year or 2.

    You were right about the cash though, and MS will have more than ever before.
    Finally I'm not looking at sony from 10 years ago. I start with the launch of the ps3 in 2006 to the present. And I don't see much.

    Perhaps if sony actually leveraged marketing properly to sell its exclusive games I might be impressed. But the only explanation (which is a pathetic one) is that due to number of exclusives available gamers would obviously buy less. The problem with that statement is that Sony's exclusives aren't all in the same genre, or target the same segments of the gaming market.

    It is highly unlikely to find a gamer that would buy all of sony's exclusives in a year or even a majority of them. Most people are only interested in a few games each year, they couldn't care less about the others.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/3...h_Hardware.php

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/3...ole_Trends.php
    I think you're overestimating Windows phone first off lol. The rest of your reply - I think you are putting too much faith in Microsoft. I agree with a lot of the principles you're talking about, and I hope Microsoft does bring it hard when the new console is released. My entire point is just that. I simply stated that if they don't, I won't be buying it.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I think you're overestimating Windows phone first off lol. The rest of your reply - I think you are putting too much faith in Microsoft. I agree with a lot of the principles you're talking about, and I hope Microsoft does bring it hard when the new console is released. My entire point is just that. I simply stated that if they don't, I won't be buying it.

    Not really. The Smartphone market would be constrained with only two competitor OS's. With the demise of palm and symbian and the sunset on RIM, MS has a gap which it can step into and grow from.

    As for my faith in MS, they haven't given me much of a reason to question them these last few years.

  14. #139
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    I don't see any scenario where Windows Phone does anything except stay in last place vs Android and iPhone. I doubt it'll make any significant headway. That being said, its integration with Live probably will have minimal impact on the gaming scene.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I don't see any scenario where Windows Phone does anything except stay in last place vs Android and iPhone. I doubt it'll make any significant headway. That being said, its integration with Live probably will have minimal impact on the gaming scene.
    I fail to see how you can come to that conclusion. Also do you really think MS would come back from the deal to fail yet again.

    Plus do you really think the windows phone team wants to piss off


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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    I fail to see how you can come to that conclusion. Also do you really think MS would come back from the deal to fail yet again.

    Plus do you really think the windows phone team wants to piss off
    I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion. Come back from the dead? or deal? I assume you meant dead. Let's see... Zune.. dead. They tried again, ZuneHD, dead. They've already failed once with their phones, and I don't think this will be any different.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuguy View Post
    yeah, good point.

    MS is tapping the casuals and getting those big sales.

    Neither company has a failing strategy, so I don't look at it like that. MS just doesn't rely on 1st party exclusives, while Sony uses those as a strong draw to their system which historically has had substandard (in comparison to most titles) ports of 3rd party games. Before the sharks jump that comment, that is a pretty indisputable fact that the PS3 has been shafted with plenty of half assed, or underperforming titles in the 3rd party realm. No fault of Sony's or MS... that blame rests solely on dev's backs.
    That is Sony's fault, it has nothing to do with the developers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion. Come back from the dead? or deal? I assume you meant dead. Let's see... Zune.. dead. They tried again, ZuneHD, dead. They've already failed once with their phones, and I don't think this will be any different.

    Dead as in coming back from windows mobile 6.5.

    Zune hardware died because there wasn't any point in trying to take over the pmp market when it was in decline due to smartphones/tablets.

    The zune software and marketplace lives on and can be found in WP7, the 360 and windows pc's.

    Do you really think MS is just going to piss away billions of dollars on windows phone.

    http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente...will_flop.html

    http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/04/mic...arketing-push/

    They learned from their mistakes, and know what their (as well as their competitors) weaknesses are.

    Make no mistake MS is going for the jugular.

    Just like how you dismissed sony's tablet design as awkward and then reneged on it when you actually tried it out, WP7 will be the same way.

    It already attracted a bit of attention at CES:




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    MS is saving the exclusives to launch with there upcoming console the 720. Exclusives are needed to launch a new console as the 360 lifecycle is counting down exclusives aren't needed.

    uuummmmm...Fried Beer iis a reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sith View Post
    MS is saving the exclusives to launch with there upcoming console the 720. Exclusives are needed to launch a new console as the 360 lifecycle is counting down exclusives aren't needed.
    I hope you're right mate

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Dead as in coming back from windows mobile 6.5.

    Zune hardware died because there wasn't any point in trying to take over the pmp market when it was in decline due to smartphones/tablets.

    the ipod line seems to be doing very well despite this fictitious decline

    The zune software and marketplace lives on and can be found in WP7, the 360 and windows pc's.

    ok, that means what?

    Do you really think MS is just going to piss away billions of dollars on windows phone.

    http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente...will_flop.html

    http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/04/mic...arketing-push/

    They learned from their mistakes, and know what their (as well as their competitors) weaknesses are.

    I think they aren't necessarily pissing it away, but that doesn't mean they are in any shape or form going to dethrone Andriod or Apple in the mobile phone sector. It just isn't going to happen.

    Make no mistake MS is going for the jugular.

    make no mistake, going for it, and getting it, are two completely different things.

    Just like how you dismissed sony's tablet design as awkward and then reneged on it when you actually tried it out, WP7 will be the same way.

    One doesn't have anything to do with the other. Just because it felt good in my hands doesn't mean it was a success lol.

    It already attracted a bit of attention at CES:





    PR videos don't mean much. Windows phone using a live widget, while the other people are actually trying to go into the app, and beat the WP user. The same thing could be done on either of the competitor phones with a widget. Those are two horrible examples.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkVincent07 View Post
    I hope you're right mate
    Me too.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Me too.
    Look at all the other companies that make mp3 players. They either gave up or scaled back their products. Hell the two most notable is Sandisk (sansa) and Sony. They bot make competitors to the nano/shuffle.

    One of apples biggest competitors is creative labs, they pretty much gave up entirely.

    There is no point in chasing down that market when it is on the decline. Look at any financial reports/summaries, ipod sales are in decline:

    http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/24/a...ardware-sales/

    Hell apple sold more ipads than all ipods. And its only been on the market for 2 years vs 10 for the ipod.

    What I mean about zune is that the hardware may not have picked up but the software and media store live on and are continuing to grow.

    I gave some reasons why MS would displace competitors in the smartphone market, why don't you list some reasons why they won't.

    My point with the sony tablet is that you made a statement that the design was junk, but once you tried it, you liked it. It isn't about whether it sells well or not, but whether the engineers actually made the tablet better in some way rather than the same basic design used bu everybody else.

    Have you ever used a WP7 phone, I feel that if you do you will change your tune. It even got the recommendation of Tut as an alternative to the iphone.

    I laugh at how fast you dismiss those videos. There are no live widgets for those other phones. That's reality. SO you have move in and out of different apps to do those tasks. Yet here is WP& which makes these commons task simpler and faster, yet you dismiss it.

    The point of the smartphone is to connect you to the rest of the world in a method that is straightforward and fast as possible. WP7 does that in ways android and ios don't.

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    It doesn't have to be a live widget. One app, that sends the same status to all your social networking sites is all that is needed. You just have to configure the phone. Those videos are PR stunts, nothing more. No, I've not used a Windows Phone. I can't find anywhere to even try one out.

    Will it compete? Sure... how much penetration into the Andriod/iPhone market will we see? I doubt it makes too much a dent.




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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    and the transition from ps2 to ps3 is a prime example that momentum from previous generation means nothing if they make the wrong decisions. obviously releasing first will always have its advantages
    Gonna have to agree with YM here on all accounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sith View Post
    MS is saving the exclusives to launch with there upcoming console the 720. Exclusives are needed to launch a new console as the 360 lifecycle is counting down exclusives aren't needed.
    I sure hope so but I have my doubts.

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