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  1. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by weskurtz81 View Post
    Caring so much that you post something on a message board isn't carrying that much. Now, when it comes to the military, my level of caring does increase, but it's still limited by caring enough to post on a message board, which doesn't require a high level of caring.
    ..too weird.

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    ..too weird.
    I'm a weird dude! That post was meant to be somewhat convoluted though .
    Last edited by weskurtz81; 04-15-2012 at 15:20.
    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


  3. #678
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    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-...-say-neighbors

    Neighbors of George Zimmerman say he had bandages on his nose and head the day after he shot dead Trayvon Martin, supporting statements by the neighborhood watch volunteer that he was beaten in a confrontation with the black Florida teenager.

    The extent of Zimmerman's injuries could be crucial to his legal defense under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" self-defense law, which allows the use of deadly force when someone has the reasonable belief he could face death or great bodily harm.
    Police said Zimmerman, who has been charged with second-degree murder in the racially charged case, was bleeding from the nose and the back of his head and was treated by medics before being taken to Sanford police station after the Feb. 26 shooting.
    IN PICTURES: Trayvon Martin protests
    But public doubts were later raised by the release of a grainy surveillance video from the police station in which no injuries were readily visible.
    Zimmerman later sought medical treatment for injuries including a broken nose, his former lawyers have said.
    Jorge Rodriguez, Zimmerman's next-door neighbor, told Reuters that when he saw Zimmerman the day after the incident, "he had two big, butterfly bandages on the back of his head, and another big bandage...on the bridge of his nose." He was talking to a police detective in his driveway.
    Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.
    The neighbors spoke to Reuters on Sunday and Monday, saying they felt they owed him their public support after he was charged with second-degree murder.
    Zimmerman, 28, was originally released after the shooting, when Sanford police accepted his claim of self-defense. He was arrested and charged by a special prosecutor last week after demonstrations around the country at which the police were accused of failing to properly investigate the death of the black 17-year-old.
    Zimmerman, who had been in hiding since shortly after the shooting, turned himself in.
    Witness accounts have supported Zimmerman's story that there was some kind of fight between him and Martin. Martin was returning with candy from a convenience store to his father's fiancee's home in a gated community when Zimmerman spotted him and called to police to say the teen appeared suspicious.
    Zimmerman's father and brother have said he had his nose broken and feared for his life before taking out his licensed handgun and shooting Martin dead.
    The neighbors said they spoke to Sanford police and the FBI in their investigations but did not recall speaking to the office of special prosecutor Angela Corey, who charged Zimmerman with second-degree murder.
    Corey's office and Sanford police declined to comment on the matter and Zimmerman's attorney Mark O'Mara did not return calls for comment. (Reporting by Chris Francescani; Editing by Daniel Trotta and David Storey)
    A little more info on his injuries.




  4. #679
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    Got this out of the Fail/LOL thread, OP=The Boy From School.

    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


  5. #680
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    rofl




  6. #681
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    I don't know if it's "ROFL" worthy, but I did think he was making a fair point. But then I watched a few of his other videos.

    Apparent picture of his head injuries;

    Last edited by plustheharm; 04-21-2012 at 04:20.


  7. #682
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    I can't believe we're still talking about this.

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksite View Post
    I can't believe we're still talking about this.
    This isn't ever going to go away.

    More ammunition for the agenda's of various groups.

  9. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksite View Post
    I can't believe we're still talking about this.
    You can bow out at any time ya know.




  10. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksite View Post
    I can't believe we're still talking about this.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    This isn't ever going to go away.

    More ammunition for the agenda's of various groups.
    *sigh*

    Of course, "their agenda." It couldn't possibly be about some bull$#@!, entirely flawed law, that enables people to take a life based on nothing but perception, right? This kid was "profiled," not necessarily racially, but he was profiled and he ended up dead. For no reason.

    I linked to an article a few pages back that pointed out the flaws of the SYG law, and another was recently "courted" that had similar cause and the "aggressor" ended up in jail. It's a flawed law, and if anything it will be addressed and it may be the only good to come out of this $#@!. It calls into question who could rightfully call defensive action.

    People want to trivialize this, wonder why some other case isn't being discussed, this and that ... when it is obvious why this has caught the attention of so many. I don't deny that there are some that have some other stake in this, which I may not agree with, but it doesn't change the matter at hand. A young man was profiled as some sort of "problem," and died because of it.

    I still see this as more of a problem for the current standing of the law. An unnecessary incident that needs to - and will be - addressed. At this point, it really is that simple.

    And it's going to take a while ... so, yeah, even in 2 - 6 months people will still be *sigh* talking about it.


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  12. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by plustheharm View Post
    *sigh*

    Of course, "their agenda." It couldn't possibly be about some bull$#@!, entirely flawed law, that enables people to take a life based on nothing but perception, right? This kid was "profiled," not necessarily racially, but he was profiled and he ended up dead. For no reason.

    I linked to an article a few pages back that pointed out the flaws of the SYG law, and another was recently "courted" that had similar cause and the "aggressor" ended up in jail. It's a flawed law, and if anything it will be addressed and it may be the only good to come out of this $#@!. It calls into question who could rightfully call defensive action.

    People want to trivialize this, wonder why some other case isn't being discussed, this and that ... when it is obvious why this has caught the attention of so many. I don't deny that there are some that have some other stake in this, which I may not agree with, but it doesn't change the matter at hand. A young man was profiled as some sort of "problem," and died because of it.

    I still see this as more of a problem for the current standing of the law. An unnecessary incident that needs to - and will be - addressed. At this point, it really is that simple.

    And it's going to take a while ... so, yeah, even in 2 - 6 months people will still be *sigh* talking about it.
    While the SYG law may not be perfect, and might need to be reworked, it's better than nothing. Say you are out in the public, someone attacks you unprovoked, you kill that person in self defense and it's reasonable to assume that the person that attacked you may have killed YOU.... should you then be charged with homicide because you didn't retreat first? Like I said, the law might not be perfect, but it's better than nothing.

    On the profiling part, you are saying that profiling caused him to die? Kind of like McDonalds is makes children fat? Profiling didn't lead to his death, it's what happened after that which lead to his death, whatever that may be. We really don't know what happened after the kid was confronted, Zimmerman may have said "hey kid, what are you doing here...." then pulled out his gun and blown him away. The kid may have jumped Zimmerman when he confronted him, tried to get his gun, then Zimmerman shot him.... who the hell knows. One thing we do know is it will all get worked out in court and hopefully Zimmerman won't end up in jail ONLY because the public and racist activists made a big stink out of the situation. If he ends up in jail, hopefully it's because he was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


  13. #687
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    You don't think it's responsible for creating the situation? That Zimmerman isn't responsible for creating the situation, regardless if Trayvon hit him first? And I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be some measures in place to ensure someone has the ability to defend themselves, but I think it's easier said than done.


  14. #688
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    Just throwing this out there, profiling is probably as wrong in frequency as it is right.

    It's unavoidable.


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    How long before we know the verdict of the case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by plustheharm View Post
    You don't think it's responsible for creating the situation? That Zimmerman isn't responsible for creating the situation, regardless if Trayvon hit him first? And I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be some measures in place to ensure someone has the ability to defend themselves, but I think it's easier said than done.
    How would I know? I don't know enough about the entire situation to come to that conclusion. Maybe there had been a string of burglaries in the neighborhood, maybe the kid was acting strange, maybe it was raining and it didn't make any sense he was out there. Now, I know if there had been a string of break ins in my neighborhood, it's the middle of the night and raining and someone is walking in he rain with a hoody on (keep break ins in mind), I might be suspicious regardless of race. But, I don't know the entire situation yet so it's a little difficult to say for sure how it all went down and what the root cause was.

    Zimmerman may have started the confrontation without warrant, but then again maybe Martin escalated it, had he not done so this thread wouldn't exist. Or, maybe Zimmerman started it unprovoked and escalated it himself, maybe he was the root cause, but again, I don't know and I'm not sure how anyone can know at this point considering the lack of information available.

    I'm sure we will find out soon enough when the court cases finishes, I bet the judge/jury will think twice about letting this guy go for fear of their owns lives though, I know I would if I were them. Kind of sad that the public had tried and convicted this guy with the help of racist community activists, before he even had a chance to argue his case in court.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    How long before we know the verdict of the case?
    I have no clue, but I bet it's going to be a while. They would be best served putting it off as long as possible so the public fervor can die down a bit.
    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


  17. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by plustheharm View Post
    Why?



    *sigh*

    Of course, "their agenda." It couldn't possibly be about some bull$#@!, entirely flawed law, that enables people to take a life based on nothing but perception, right? This kid was "profiled," not necessarily racially, but he was profiled and he ended up dead. For no reason.

    I linked to an article a few pages back that pointed out the flaws of the SYG law, and another was recently "courted" that had similar cause and the "aggressor" ended up in jail. It's a flawed law, and if anything it will be addressed and it may be the only good to come out of this $#@!. It calls into question who could rightfully call defensive action.

    People want to trivialize this, wonder why some other case isn't being discussed, this and that ... when it is obvious why this has caught the attention of so many. I don't deny that there are some that have some other stake in this, which I may not agree with, but it doesn't change the matter at hand. A young man was profiled as some sort of "problem," and died because of it.

    I still see this as more of a problem for the current standing of the law. An unnecessary incident that needs to - and will be - addressed. At this point, it really is that simple.

    And it's going to take a while ... so, yeah, even in 2 - 6 months people will still be *sigh* talking about it.
    Stand your ground does not apply (shouldn't) in this case. That's it, there isn't anything more to discuss about it.

    You say that putting the burden of proof on the justice system to prove that SYG doesn't apply is ludicrous, it would be the same way even if you reversed the roles and made the shooter bear the burden of proof that they feared they would die if they didn't act.

    Just ask yourself this, if the law is so bad and is so prevalent, why have we not heard anything about it in other cases causing unjust loss of life?

    It hasn't been an issue, that's why.

    Also see the video mentioned above by wes (post 680). If it was a black guy that shot martin, nobody would care.

    And please don't bother responding if you intend to post mindless drivel used by those against stand your ground laws.

  18. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by weskurtz81 View Post
    How would I know? I don't know enough about the entire situation to come to that conclusion. Maybe there had been a string of burglaries in the neighborhood, maybe the kid was acting strange, maybe it was raining and it didn't make any sense he was out there. Now, I know if there had been a string of break ins in my neighborhood, it's the middle of the night and raining and someone is walking in he rain with a hoody on (keep break ins in mind), I might be suspicious regardless of race. But, I don't know the entire situation yet so it's a little difficult to say for sure how it all went down and what the root cause was.

    Zimmerman may have started the confrontation without warrant, but then again maybe Martin escalated it, had he not done so this thread wouldn't exist. Or, maybe Zimmerman started it unprovoked and escalated it himself, maybe he was the root cause, but again, I don't know and I'm not sure how anyone can know at this point considering the lack of information available.

    I'm sure we will find out soon enough when the court cases finishes, I bet the judge/jury will think twice about letting this guy go for fear of their owns lives though, I know I would if I were them. Kind of sad that the public had tried and convicted this guy with the help of racist community activists, before he even had a chance to argue his case in court.
    I get what you're saying, but all I was responding to was your question concerning whether or not the profiling of a potential suspect resulted in his death. And it appears that it did. He thought he looked suspicious, and whether or not he actually confronted him, it's his actions (leaving the car, following) that appear to have escalated the situation. Now, whether or not Trayvon feared for his life and hit him in an act of self defense ... well, we'll never know. My original point was just that a situation was created unnecessarily, as a result of someone "profiling" a potential evil-doer.

    I'm not sure how I would react to this specific situation, so I won't speculate. But the logical thing would be to just phone it in, notify the proper authorities and leave it at that. That's also the job of an individual of a neighborhood watch group. You're not supposed to pursue. You are supposed to view and notify.

    Now, if I saw a clear crime being committed - an attempted abduction, raping - you can bet I would make my presence known. But on account of someone just looking suspicious? I dunno.

    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Stand your ground does not apply (shouldn't) in this case. That's it, there isn't anything more to discuss about it.
    Huh? It's expected that they'll move for pretrial hearing on his SYG rights... It's thought that the case could be thrown out at this point, before even reaching a jury. I must be missing something.
    Last edited by plustheharm; 04-22-2012 at 07:19.


  19. #693
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    -edit-
    Meant to edit, not quote.

    >_>
    Last edited by plustheharm; 04-22-2012 at 06:56.


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    Quote Originally Posted by plustheharm View Post
    I get what you're saying, but all I was responding to was your question concerning whether or not the profiling of a potential suspect resulted in his death. And it appears that it did. He thought he looked suspicious, and whether or not he actually confronted him, it's his actions (leaving the car, following) that appear to have escalated the situation. Now, whether or not Trayvon feared for his life and hit him in an act of self defense ... well, we'll never know. My original point was just that a situation was created unnecessarily, as a result of someone "profiling" a potential evil-doer.

    I'm not sure how I would react to this specific situation, so I won't speculate. But the logical thing would be to just phone it in, notify the proper authorities and leave it at that. That's also the job of an individual of a neighborhood watch group. You're not supposed to pursue. You are supposed to view and notify.

    Now, if I saw a clear crime being committed - an attempted abduction, raping - you can bet I would make my presence known. But on account of someone just looking suspicious? I dunno.
    I still don't see how we can say that the result of profiling is a dead kid, there was simply too much that happened in between the initial profiling and the eventual death that had it not happened Martin would not be dead. I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree that the profiling resulted in the kids death.
    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


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    Here is the 911 call, doesn't seem like it's anything out of the ordinary to me.

    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


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    In terms of what? And how is this different from the one before?

    Sent from my


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    Quote Originally Posted by plustheharm View Post
    In terms of what? And how is this different from the one before?

    Sent from my
    I didn't know it had been posted before, the first time I heard it was last night.

    It doesn't seem odd to me, doesn't seem like some racist guy was just trying to keep the black man down or anything like that. The dude was calm, said there had been burglary's, he called the cops and only tried to follow the kid when he took off, he just doesn't come across as the guy community activists have been saying he is.
    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


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    "He said Zimmerman could have identified himself to Martin, then talked to him, rather than confronting him."

    My biggest issue with all of this. Regardless of what happened later, he could've just approached him like a normal person would. He didn't need to act like a stalker. Not to mention, the way he interacted with Trayvon (words he spoke) gave an impression that he was treating Trayvon like a criminal before knowing anything.

    I remember something like Trayvon saying, "Why are you following me?" And instead of approaching in a neutral way, he responded, "What are you doing here?" That would $#@!ing piss me off too.

    I think I was in an agrument with F34R about the confrontation too, where he said that it was Trayvon who confronted Zimmerman but we can see now that the investigator also believes that Trayvon was confronted first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    I think I was in an agrument with F34R about the confrontation too, where he said that it was Trayvon who confronted Zimmerman but we can see now that the investigator also believes that Trayvon was confronted first.
    Yeah, there was speculation concerning how the "confrontation" started before ... much like the suggestion that he was attacked "blindly" as he was walking back to his vehicle. Differing, unconfirmed reports.

    “He was on uppers and downers at the same time,” the attorney said. “These are medications that can cause side effects such as agitation, delusions and mood swings. That’s what he was on prior to the shooting. The question becomes, did those drugs have an effect on George Zimmerman the night he shot and killed Trayvon Martin?”
    The Zimmerman medication issue is an interesting one, to me at least - considering I've known people taking medication that can have such wild side effects, but there isn't really much more that plays into that, at least currently. Unless he's been on these for a while and those earlier comments from colleagues were speaking to something of the sort. Do find it interesting the talk of a Trayvon Martin "stand your ground" fight might have been in effect, even though we'll never know.

    Will be interesting to see what else comes into play. The pictures of his injuries don't exactly match up to the severity being suggested. His nose looks like it clearly took a knock, but his "black eyes" and "head wounds" appear to be pretty tame, even from the before-day-after pictures. His head wounds look pretty minor, for instance. Couple that with the eye witness testimony changing, and the unreleased evidence ... could get interesting ...


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