Sony doubles forecast of annual loss to $6.4bn

[Lefein]

I guess if I looked at being relegated to a fanbase of around 60 million as a win, then I'd be all up for Live as well... Thing is, that's hardly the big picture.. And it is REALLY goddamn funny seeing people pass it off as such.

[radgamer420]

I guess if I looked at being relegated to a fanbase of around 60 million as a win, then I'd be all up for Live as well... Thing is, that's hardly the big picture.. And it is REALLY goddamn funny seeing people pass it off as such.

So then by that logic that makes Nintendo the only winner this gen. Ok fair enough. Btw 360 sales arent "around" 60 million. http://www.videogamesblogger.com/201...18-million.htm

[Lefein]

So then by that logic that makes Nintendo the only winner this gen. Ok fair enough.

As far as prospective fanbase going into the next gen. Absolutely. Historically speaking, they could be poised to go all "Playstation 2" on us. Considering the 360 and PS3 are literally within 2 Million units of each other, one fanbase focusing on the other at this point is just the blind leading the blind. You can suggest Live, and we can suggest... you know.. getting some Non-Kinect exclusives out there. It's a wash.

All we know is, judging from the PS1, PS2 and the Wii, there's a whole lot more going on out there (and money to be had) than anything the Xbox has achieved. Word that.

[radgamer420]

As far as prospective fanbase going into the next gen. Absolutely. Historically speaking, they could be poised to go all "Playstation 2" on us. Considering the 360 and PS3 are literally within 2 Million units of each other, one fanbase focusing on the other at this point is just the blind leading the blind. You can suggest Live, and we can suggest... you know.. getting some Non-Kinect exclusives out there. It's a wash. All we know is, judging from the PS1, PS2 and the Wii, there's a whole lot more going on out there (and money to be had) than anything the Xbox has achieved. Word that.

Or anything the PS3 has achieved either. Word that. And yeah theres no doubt that Nintendo cleaned house this gen and I'm definitely not counting them out next gen either.

[Lefein]

Or anything the PS3 has achieved either. And yeah theres no doubt that Nintendo cleaned house this gen and I'm definitely not counting them out next gen either.

If anyone thinks Sony is going to announce the PS4 to another "RIIIIIIIIIIDGE RACER" and "The next gen doesn't start until we say it does" then they are in for a very rude awakening. Sony handed MS their 10 million unit lead on a fine piece of Chinaware... Then summarily closed the gap to become razor thin despite the missteps and miscalculations.

MS better be prepared to make an actual decent piece of hardware this time around. They'll need all that "insurance money" for marketing. If they think they can simply re-Kinect with their 60 million current users? This will be a shellacking of epic proportions.

Trust.

[Morganator]

The high-end XBRs are.

Nah. Their XBR line is quite shit compared to the competition. Besides, they've all but left the next generation of TV technology when they ditched OLED R&D. Now, Samsung and LG are really gonna mop the floor with them in the TV front.

[Lethal_NFS]

This is turning in to a Sony vs Microsoft thread, and this is not what this thread is about.

Lefein, you gave your opinions and it is noted how you feel. Everyone needs to stop baiting each other in and turning this thread in to something else.

[radgamer420]

If anyone thinks Sony is going to announce the PS4 to another "RIIIIIIIIIIDGE RACER" and "The next gen doesn't start until we say it does" then they are in for a very rude awakening. Sony handed MS their 10 million unit lead on a fine piece of Chinaware... Then summarily closed the gap to become razor thin despite the missteps and miscalculations. MS better be prepared to make an actual decent piece of hardware this time around. They'll need all that "insurance money" for marketing. If they think they can simply re-Kinect with their 60 million current users? This will be a shellacking of epic proportions.

Trust.

Thats 66 million actually. And with Sony bleeding cash like a stuck pig and having to close down studios and getting destroyed by Nintendo in the portable space as well as talking about now focusing on PSN games and PSN subscription models I wouldn't be so sure about Sony doing any "shellacking "on anybody.

This is turning in to a Sony vs Microsoft thread, and this is not what this thread is about. Lefein, you gave your opinions and it is noted how you feel. Everyone needs to stop baiting each other in and turning this thread in to something else.

Didnt see this post. Ok, I'm done.

[Cuguy]

I expect people to heed Lethal's warning. It will be the only one. I will not close the thread, but rather punish those involved with it devolving into another pissing match.

[TEJ2025]

A lot of people who game online on PS3 do so because it's free. Changing that and start charging for it and you'll see a lot of gamers not come back.

[Sub-stance1]

A lot of people who game online on PS3 do so because it's free. Changing that and start charging for it and you'll see a lot of gamers not come back.

If they don't start charging there may be nothing to come back to. They will come back. Bet on it.

[Ghost-Rhayne]

Sony wont charge to play online. They will have another PSN+ type thing.

[Sub-stance1]

Sony wont charge to play online. They will have another PSN+ type thing.

Then expect Xbox live to continue to make better and faster improvements then.

[Lefein]

Did Nintendo start nickel and diming stuff out because the N64 or Gamecube didn't win their respective gens? I don't see a precedent for it, and this thread is still not on topic (don't shoot the messenger).

Sorry to say, but the Playstation division cuts a profit. Campaigning for a redesign of the business structure of an actual competitive and profitable model within a global corporation the likes of Sony is naive at best and disingenuous at worst. There are far better ways for Sony to pull themselves into the black. The revenue generated from going to a charge-for-online schema on their best running product pales in comparison to what they can gain from restructuring their consumer electronics. Even just leveraging their intellectual property and engineering could make Live's revenue seem like a drop in the bucket.

..That is, of course, you somehow think Live generates 6 Billion dollars a year. In which case.. Well, I don't even have to say a word. Windows Button+R and type "calc". Enjoy the adventure... thoroughly. Off the top of my head, I think EVERY SINGLE LAST 360 sold would need an over 200% tie-in. Anyone want to gamble this as a realistic or accurate business plan? I'll be around.

[Ghost-Rhayne]

Then expect Xbox live to continue to make better and faster improvements then.

Why? The ability to play other people online should be free (as it is on PC as well). However, ala PSN+ with its cloud saving and other bonus features, there is no reason that Sony's paid for subscription wont also rocket. The Vita is living proof that Sony are stepping up their live experience.

[Jo-san]

The currency situation hasn’t helped, but there are three structural issues that have developed within Sony over the last twenty years.

Firstly Sony became complacent with its customers; the company appeared detached from reality and failed to provide good value across for many of its products. Episodes such as the rootkit fiasco undermined confidence and trust in Sony, while asking consumers to work more for a product isn't exactly good PR. Marketing has and continues to be substandard which has deprived the business of more sales and market exposure.

Secondly and rather critically, the business failed to recognise, adapt to and combat the emergence of Samsung and Apple. These two enterprises alone have converted a substantial proportion of Sony market and mind-share across various consumer electronics ranges. This has resulted in the Sony brand no longer conveying the weight it once held.

Thirdly the business has become far too bloated with various individuals presiding over their own fiefdoms or semi-autonomous corporate units. An excellent illustration of the problems that Sony encountered is that there were four separate Sony product groups working on a tablet to compete against the iPad. FOUR! Not only is this illustrative of a lack of direction and coordination, but also highly inefficient (low synergies) and a waste of capital and human resources.

In addition to this, Sony simply makes far too many products that fail to sell exceptionally well or lack market leader characteristics. Typically, the most successful businesses in the world are those that concentrate on a handful of products and aim to be either the market leader or a major market participant; Sony has capitulated market share across the board with resulting negative consequences.

How did I know what this thread would become before even opening it? Oh, duh.

Nintendo is plenty profitable and doesn't charge for online gaming. On top of that, the Playstation Division has been profitable. Every thread is a "Sony should copy Live" commercial nowadays. Get over it.

Nintendo operate a completely different business model to Sony's gaming business, so that's not exactly a strong defence. Critically Nintendo has always aimed for profitability from as soon as day one, while it also maintains an immensely strong software IP library that sells significant volumes.

I’d also point out that there isn’t a ‘Playstation Division’; the PlayStation brand and game operations are contained within the Consumer Products & Services segment which is loss making.

I think it's a certainty that Sony will incorporate a pay-to-play online platform for the PS4:
- It didn't damage the 360 image or sales.
- Microsoft have been generating significant returns from the online service
- It ties people to the platform boosting consumption of other products (games, DLC, etc...)

You might not like it as a consumer, but from a corporate perspective it's a no-brainer (hence why they came out with PS+); it's a revenue stream that has been ignored to the company’s' detriment.

[Cuguy]

Why? The ability to play other people online should be free (as it is on PC as well). However, ala PSN+ with its cloud saving and other bonus features, there is no reason that Sony's paid for subscription wont also rocket. The Vita is living proof that Sony are stepping up their live experience.

If PSN+ was going to take off, it would have already. A new console isn't going to magically create a new legion of PSN+ subs.

It has been out long enough to gain steam and revenue, and it just hasn't. XBL continuously adds new features, new possibilities and I have to think a lot of it is from paid subs to play online. Does it suck to be forced to pay if you want to game online? Sure. Do I like shelling out 30 a year for it? Not especially, but when I fire up the Xbox then go to the PS3, there is a significant difference in what I CAN do online between the two. Again, all the extra revenue they earn from paid subs helps keep the infrastructure and updates coming.

I am not saying Sony is doing anything bad by keeping PS gaming free. Unlike a lot of folks here, I just see that they are missing a ton of potential by NOT charging. That money could better the PS/Vita experiences by increasing the money pool.

I think it's a certainty that Sony will incorporate a pay-to-play online platform for the PS4:
- It didn't damage the 360 image or sales.
- Microsoft have been generating significant returns from the online service
- It ties people to the platform boosting consumption of other products (games, DLC, etc...)

You might not like it as a consumer, but from a corporate perspective it's a no-brainer (hence why they came out with PS+); it's a revenue stream that has been ignored to the company’s' detriment.

Exactly. From a business standpoint, these things make money. Hard to deny it.

[Lethal_NFS]

I did some simple math and came up with this.

Lets say that 70% of Xbox 360 owners pay for Xbox Live Gold at an average cost of $45.

Microsoft's estimated revenue for 1 year is $1,575,000,000.

That is assuming that 35 million people are paying for Xbox Live Gold. The numbers could very well be higher.

I know PS Home is bringing in lots of money as well, but I really think Sony needs to eliminate the free service and start putting some money back in their pockets. This will give Sony a reason to keep improving the OS and adding features like Microsoft does.

Microsoft is one of the smartest companies in the world for a reason. Thank god they made the mistake of not going with a blu-ray format lol.

[Cuguy]

I did some simple math and came up with this.

Lets say that 70% of Xbox 360 owners pay for Xbox Live Gold at an average cost of $45.

Microsoft's estimated revenue for 1 year is $1,575,000,000.

That is assuming that 35 million people are paying for Xbox Live Gold. The numbers could very well be higher.

I know PS Home is bringing in lots of money as well, but I really think Sony needs to eliminate the free service and start putting some money back in their pockets. This will give Sony a reason to keep improving the OS and adding features like Microsoft does.

Microsoft is one of the smartest companies in the world for a reason.

1.5B just from a 45 dollar sub. Not including sales of online shows, avatar gear, XBL arcade titles, etc...

[Lethal_NFS]

1.5B just from a 45 dollar sub. Not including sales of online shows, avatar gear, XBL arcade titles, etc...

Exactly! Who knows how much more money that other stuff is bringing in.

I know Sony is far from being stupid. I have a strong feeling that they will be charging for all their services when their next console hits.

[Yuuichi]

It would just be a bad move for sony to intoduce pay to play online. If they had started it beginging of this gen than yes I say keep it going. Many people are acustom to not paying and now suddenly making them do it next gen would give people a sour taste. This leads to problem 2. If sont next gen was to do I would look at what I am paying for. If it is not much like how it is now then yeah id pass and get an xbox which has many more features for what I am paying for. Sure they could do it and not lose many people, but then they could do it and lose many people. It is to big a risk imo. I say next gen don't do something like home or if you do make it a paid service.

[Cuguy]

Exactly! Who knows how much more money that other stuff is bringing in.

I know Sony is far from being stupid. I have a strong feeling that they will be charging for all their services when their next console hits.

Again, this isn't a "hooray for MS" thread, but more so pointing out the revenue Sony COULD be getting.

It is blatantly obvious the consumer doesn't give a shit about paying, as is evidenced by XBL numbers growing year over year.
Or by people who will pay ridiculously large data plan prices to play Vita on the go, or any other mobile gaming app (ipad, etc..) Free to play online, if it mattered so much, would have MS lowering or eliminating the need to pay, but it hasn't. It just isn't a factor. The only factor now is that Sony is restructuring and should seriously be eyeballing a 1B income stream if they launched a sub model for PSN to play online. Even if they just charged 30 a year, it would still be tons in their pockets.

[Lethal_NFS]

It would just be a bad move for sony to intoduce pay to play online. If they had started it beginging of this gen than yes I say keep it going. Many people are acustom to not paying and now suddenly making them do it next gen would give people a sour taste. This leads to problem 2. If sont next gen was to do I would look at what I am paying for. If it is not much like how it is now then yeah id pass and get an xbox which has many more features for what I am paying for. Sure they could do it and not lose many people, but then they could do it and lose many people. It is to big a risk imo. I say next gen don't do something like home or if you do make it a paid service.

Sony may not have a choice. And PS Home is not going away anytime soon. Sony has invested so much time and money in to the service which attracts paying sponsors and revenue through virtual items and games. It is actually very successful.

I really do not see people passing up on the PS4 because you have to pay for online services. There will be no other options as both Sony and Microsoft will require this. It will not take long for consumers to get used to it. Sony does not need to charge the same as Microsoft does either. At this point, charging just $25 a year is more than $0.

[Lefein]

/headdesk

The Playstation Division isn't bleeding chips. How hard is that to understand?
Previous iterations of the Playstation have sold more than twice as many units as the XBox 360 has.

What's the malfunction?

Calling a spade a spade. You guys simply won't rest until Playstation is irrelevant, will you? Other than cross-game chat (which is guaranteed to be in PS4), what has doubling the cost of the 360 since launch day gotten you? Peer-to-peer online play? Is this what you're selling us?

Here's a fact you cannot dispute. I didn't think I'd need to nuke this conversation because I was told this thread would be on track. But, here you go:

How are those Live subscriptions for PC users working out?

Still think anyone outside of the current Live userbase are up for this? Heaven help you if you do, now. It's even free on PC and they can't get people on-board. Everyone's worried that they'll switch up to a paid online model again.. On top of it's features being largely useless in the first place.

[Sub-stance1]

Why? The ability to play other people online should be free (as it is on PC as well). However, ala PSN+ with its cloud saving and other bonus features, there is no reason that Sony's paid for subscription wont also rocket. The Vita is living proof that Sony are stepping up their live experience.

They may be stepping up their live experience but their infrastructure will still be a step behind. I think they are screwing up a great opportunity to increase revenue and get their network on par with MS. People will bitch and complain initially but they will come around. It was the same way for Xbox Live. There a re a lot of things that should be free but when you are in the business of making money you have to prioritize. If you charge for a service and make it worth the price, the gamers will support it.