Epic unveils Unreal Engine 4 with stunning in-game screens...

[Varsh]

Another thing that is becoming rapidly apparent is that we are reaching the point of diminishing returns.

Hahahahahaha no... seriously if you know how game's graphics are done then you'll know that we are no where near "diminishing returns". These screenshots are insane and looking at the poly counts in all the screenshots my jaw completely dropped. Add all of those effects into the mix including what I see is HDR, caustics, heat wave, refraction, and more, that is unbelievably impressive and I've yet to see a single game engine come remotely close in real-time.

If you really want to know what could be improved graphics wise then here's a list:

• Get rid of bump and normal maps and tessellation and use actual polygons
• Get rid of texture, occlusion, and transparency maps and instead use painted vertices with transparencies - separate colour per vertex this way and infinitely more accurate to real life

Those two options will require so much processing that it's not even funny. For the time being though the closer we can get to being able to use high poly characters in-game will be the time when production costs will drop.

[itachi73378]

Hahahahahaha no... seriously if you know how game's graphics are done then you'll know that we are no where near "diminishing returns". These screenshots are insane and looking at the poly counts in all the screenshots my jaw completely dropped. Add all of those effects into the mix including what I see is HDR, caustics, heat wave, refraction, and more, that is unbelievably impressive and I've yet to see a single game engine come remotely close in real-time.

If you really want to know what could be improved graphics wise then here's a list:

• Get rid of bump and normal maps and tessellation and use actual polygons
• Get rid of texture, occlusion, and transparency maps and instead use painted vertices with transparencies - separate colour per vertex this way and infinitely more accurate to real life

Those two options will require so much processing that it's not even funny. For the time being though the closer we can get to being able to use high poly characters in-game will be the time when production costs will drop.

Umm no we are still reaching that point. What I meant in my post was that it is becoming increasingly difficult to notice any improvements in the graphics. Now we may have been using smoke and mirrors for some of the effects, and in the coming years we wont have to, but that does not make a visual difference as big as before.

There is also a limit to which increased poly count will help. There was this screenshot form Crysis 2 where a concrete slab was tessellated like hell having thousands of polys, yet it could have been made by a couple of hundred polys.

I may not be making any sense, but what I'm saying is that our ways of rendering will continue to improve, but the noticeable difference is becoming less and less.

[Varsh]

Bump and Normal Maps as we all know only take effect the more in front you are with them, the higher the angle the more it fades away. Tessellation on the other hand is highly inaccurate - it tries to fill the voids of the original mesh and bumps it up to as close as it can but it can lead to a lot of undesirable effects as it's simply multiplying each polygon and adding a height map to make everything protrude. You've got more control over it than a height map on its own but in truth it's still the same thing but does look better. To make things properly accurate you will have to go fully with the mesh and no enhancements. I actively do 3D modelling myself and trust me the difference is night and day, but even PC's aren't close enough to render things in real-time.

The Crysis 2 comparison though is an interesting one, however the concrete slab is most likely made up of more like 6 polygons (6 sided slab) with a normal or bump map added to it. When the Tessellation option was added all they did was add a height map to it, that's it, tessellation itself increases the potential needed polygons to the surface to give the effect required so no, a few hundred polygons wouldn't suffice.

[Sub-stance1]

lol at people comparing screen shots to a video.

[Fijiandoce]

i hate the unreal engine! i've said it in every post i've made on unreal engine topics.
UE3 is an engine that looks really nice, however, it seemingly pales in comparison to other engines....even when Epic use it.
let me try and justify my ire.
ME1,2&3 and GeOW1,2&3 are both top notch games made by top notch studious, one of them having the advantage of exclusivity. both are really pretty looking games and at times produce scenes that fill your mind with wonder. but these occur when the game is left at rest, when you stop to take a look around you, the second you start moving the engine falls to pieces.
i hated watching the same 0.5 second run animation repeat whilst i played through ME2 20hour campaign. the same reload animation in cutscenes, the same viscous finger-point at little bunny rabbits etc etc these same points are also valid for GeOW, granted a majority of players wouldn't have noticed due to the pacing, but the fact is its still there. the entire engine comes across as wooden! nothing in motion looks good. i dont even want to start on the models and clipping.....
Compare this to other engines such as Cryengine, and the Engine used in Uncharted. both games look amazing when you are still and continue to do so when you start to interact with the game. the first time i moved Drake in Uncharted i couldn't believe what i had done. i had to stop to ensure it was me who was moving him, and not a cinema.

as i said at the top, however, the Unreal engine looks nice. they should now focus on a kick ass animation system that is more dynamic than a 1 second loop for everything.
Cryengine and the killzone engine are both engines that can be used by other devs, both these engines have FAR superior animation systems to what Unreal has managed this gen. and although i haven't seen UE4 yet i'd wager that both the aforementioned will still be better than it.

[Kauldron]

Am I the only one not impressed by these pictures?

Nope, you sure are not.

Looks like GOW3 graphics

Exactly. If that is what we have to look forward to then I'll keep playing PS3 and just build another gaming rig.

[Two4DaMoney]

You have got to be fucking kidding me. This is why they want powerful consoles? 8gigs of ram and all that other bullshit...That's nowhere near good enough for those crazy specs they want inside a console. "you haven't seen it in motion. ect." save that shit for someone else. I'm going by whats available now. And being able to pull off those real-time effects won't fucking matter to the non-pc gamers if devs can find other methods to make it seem they are able to do it real time.

Dream world: Sure I want tons more power under the hood of next gen consoles. I would lose my mind to see what Sony 1st party could pull off with that much power in their hands. All in a $400 dollar console.

Reality: Fuck paying $500+ for a console that will bleed the company for years to come. We don't need another ps3/360(early life) happening again. MS already are scared to take risk outside of live. Sony would then take less risk with new i.ps. I'll take whatever they put out because I know it's not going to be another gamecube/wii slight upgrade situation.

I would be more excited by those screens if they pulled all that off in a sandbox game. This gen has taught me to not give a fuck about a tech demo. I want to see a game running where you have all the goodies(graphics, a.i. ect.) instead of just all graphics(tech demo). I would have hoped that most of you all had learned the same lesson this gen as well before shitting your pants with excitement.

edit:I don't mean to piss on anyone's snowcone if it sounds like I am. I'm just feeling a little pissed by Epic trying to sell their U4 engine when all these effects aren't needed when a dev can fake it and get near the same results to the untrained eye. Faking it will then free up more power to go elsewhere. If you want all that extra shit in real-time then buy a pc and keep that upgraded.

[Blacksite]

There's a lot of detail in those screenshots, actually. Particularly this one:



Or am I the only one noticing the highly-detailed special effects? Also, keep in mind that this is a close-up of the character model's head so the texture quality isn't all that bad. If you want to compare it to God of War 3, you'll see that the latter, while it does look good, isn't nearly as impressive.



But of course, everything looks better in motion.

[Sub-stance1]

There's a lot of detail in those screenshots, actually. Particularly this one:



Or am I the only one noticing the highly-detailed special effects? Also, keep in mind that this is a close-up of the character model's head so the texture quality isn't all that bad. If you want to compare it to God of War 3, you'll see that the latter, while it does look good, isn't nearly as impressive.

I don't think anyone took that GOW comparisons to those UE4 screens too seriously... Its not even close.

[Blacksite]

Another thing to consider is that the character model from the Unreal Engine 4 tech demo features some hardware tessellation, which makes textures pop out more, as opposed to appearing flat. Current-gen home consoles don't utilize that kind of technology.

[Two4DaMoney]

The leap doesnt look THAT great for the specs that they want in next gen consoles. I believe that's the point of gow3 being brought up.

Besides, when have tech demos represented what we will be playing when everything else is added to the graphics? Games look downgraded and that will be the case especially early into these new consoles life. Most devs will continue using the unreal 3 engine over the unreal engine 4 anyways.

[AaronSOLDIER]

Wait for GOW Ascension to make a fair review. Though of course UE4 will be better the more games that are made with it. Right now though its unimpressive.

[Blacksite]

The leap doesnt look THAT great for the specs that they want in next gen consoles. I believe that's the point of gow3 being brought up.

Besides, when have tech demos represented what we will be playing when everything else is added to the graphics? Games look downgraded and that will be the case especially early into these new consoles life. Most devs will continue using the unreal 3 engine over the unreal engine 4 anyways.

Since games like Crysis 2 already utilize that technology.

[Two4DaMoney]

Since games like Crysis 2 already utilize that technology.

And exactly how many people can run those levels of graphics for cheap?

edit: I mean not the cards that are available now. The cards that were available at the time this was released.

[Sub-stance1]

Wait for GOW Ascension to make a fair review. Though of course UE4 will be better the more games that are made with it. Right now though its unimpressive.

Even in its initial stage Unreal engine 4 will blow away anything this gen has to offer. There will be no huge graphical leap from GOW 3 to GOW Ascension. Just like it was no huge leap from Uncharted 2 to 3.

[Kauldron]

Let's compare a PS2 game to a PS3 game shall we? That is what we are looking at, a generational leap.

I think the whole point is that this next gen just isn't going to be that kind of leap. Not that it isn't possible, just that the companies are not going to do it.

We have more evidence to view in the upcoming year though. But I have this gut feeling that what you see in the OP is it boys and girls.

Like it or not.

[Blacksite]

And exactly how many people can run those levels of graphics for cheap?

edit: I mean not the cards that are available now. The cards that were available at the time this was released.

It seems like people were willing to pay 600 dollars for a home console that displayed graphics (in games like Uncharted) that you didn't find on most PC games at the time. My point was that you already see games on the PC platform utilizing these really neat DirectX 11 post-processing effects and whatnot. So don't expect to pay more than 500 dollars when Sony and Microsoft release their next-gen consoles in 2013 or the year after.

[Two4DaMoney]

It seems like people were willing to pay 600 dollars for a home console that displayed graphics (in games like Uncharted) that you didn't find on most PC games at the time. My point was that you already see games on the PC platform utilizing these really neat DirectX 11 post-processing effects and whatnot. So don't expect to pay more than 500 dollars when Sony and Microsoft release their next-gen consoles in 2013 or the year after.

And you think they can pack whats required out of the UE4 into a 500 dollar console?

[Fijiandoce]

Let's compare a PS2 game to a PS3 game shall we? That is what we are looking at, a generational leap.

I think the whole point is that this next gen just isn't going to be that kind of leap. Not that it isn't possible, just that the companies are not going to do it.

We have more evidence to view in the upcoming year though. But I have this gut feeling that what you see in the OP is it boys and girls.

Like it or not.

how much better do you want it to get??

PS2 had characters entire heads composed of a grand total of 4 polygons(exaggerated slightly), ps3 has thousands used for heads now.

these thousand polygons create a MUCH closer representation of the human head than the previous gen. thus moving forward, gains will be minimal as the general appearance has already been achieved. its got nothing to do with companies not wanting to do it.

even the best CG can still be identified as CG and they have infinitely higher tech than a games console.

[Fon]

And you think they can pack whats required out of the UE4 into a 500 dollar console?

I believe that most parts required for the UE4 will be cheaper a year or two for consoles to be at that price point in 2013 or 2014 since those are the years we're assuming the consoles will come out.

[Fijiandoce]

And you think they can pack whats required out of the UE4 into a 500 dollar console?

consoles are made at a loss....ie cost more to make than they're sold for.

[Two4DaMoney]

I believe that most parts required for the UE4 will be cheaper a year or two for consoles to be at that price point in 2013 or 2014 since those are the years we're assuming the consoles will come out.

Yeah, that is true. I'm wanting the best but expecting the worse next gen for some reason.

consoles are made at a loss....ie cost more to make than they're sold for.

I know that. I'm just questioning rather Sony and MS will want to lose a lot at launch or release a console where they can make money back fast from its sales.

[AaronSOLDIER]

Even in its initial stage Unreal engine 4 will blow away anything this gen has to offer. There will be no huge graphical leap from GOW 3 to GOW Ascension. Just like it was no huge leap from Uncharted 2 to 3.

Not really. Compare GOW2 from PS2 to early 360 games. The leap from this gen to next won't be as big. The difference between gens is getting smaller and smaller. Next gen will have 1080P/60FPS as standard (hopefully), which is not that much more than what we're already seeing. There'll be a noticeable difference for sure, but not what people make out.

[Blacksite]

And you think they can pack whats required out of the UE4 into a 500 dollar console?

The 500 series of Nvidia GeForce GTX graphic cards have already gone down to a reasonable price. You can pick up the 560 for roughly 200 dollars. They were double that price (maybe even more) a while back. Why do people think we won't be seeing graphics, like the video I posted above, in next-gen home consoles at the price of 500 dollars or less?

EDIT: Don't count on 60 frames per second being the norm. A lot of developers seem content having their games run at 30 frames per second to showcase better visuals.

[Sub-stance1]

Not really. Compare GOW2 from PS2 to early 360 games. The leap from this gen to next won't be as big. The difference between gens is getting smaller and smaller. Next gen will have 1080P/60FPS as standard (hopefully), which is not that much more than what we're already seeing. There'll be a noticeable difference for sure, but not what people make out.

It will be a very noticeable leap. None knows how big because we don't have any confirmed specs. I'm 99% sure that when they do show Ue4 to the public, it will be better than anything seen this generation on any console. Much better in all areas. And to be honest, it really won't be that difficult because all they have to do is double the Ram and we know that next gen consoles will most certainly have more than that. I expect Epic to debut this with xbox 720 for obvious reasons.