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  1. #51
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    We have to define what Active members mean, Are they people with most posts who keep posting any $#@! everywhere? or people who make quality threads? or people who make helpful posts and answer questions? or people who keep picking on and making fun of other members?

    One reason why new members don't stick is the lack of quality threads.Some people just start a thread, throw a link and that's it.A year ago i complained about this method and i was wrongfully received an infraction ( this is another stupid story i will explain later this post ) Threads should be more efficient and organized. Use quotes - photos - link to source - write your personal impressions. If it's for a game you should put all info bout this game,videos,photos,story, organize it very well, and keep updating it even when the game gets released.

    Another reason is that the maturity percentage among current members are very low,very very low. People love getting into worthless offensive discussions and always tend to call others names simply because they don't agree with them .And always makes winning a discussion their ultimate goal in life.

    Admins. need to appreciate members more, make a reward system or anything that encourage members to make helpful contributes.

    A lot of technical errors around here,500, and another one when sometimes i write a post and click post the page just doesn't load and i lost all what i have written.

    Admins are clueless when it comes to dub-forums, they were changed a lot in the past 2 years.You keep making sections for games like Uncharted or FF while it's obvious for the below average person that such games don't need their own forums.The only active one is COD.When i asked to make one for Battlefield as the COD one is so popular people told me that the game has and won't have that many threads although at the current date the game wasn't even released and had like 10 threads which i provided in my request thread.. ( like Uncharted had a chance of getting more than Battlefield )
    Admins should involve the community more in such decisions.

    And that's To name a few.
    =================
    The infraction story: i received an infraction from someone called Zoibie and when i asked him why you gave me that he told me he didn't know,someone else asked him to do it,when i told him to please check again because i don't deserve it, he never came back to me. That's an example of a jackass mod and how stupid things goes around here.

    Recently i posted something that someone was offended by , when i explained to him that i didn't mean it the way he thought he just kept annoying me i had to respond few times then i decided to ignore him, But he kept harassing me. i reported the guy twice and mods did nothing.I asked someone called DC to do something about him and he simply told me there is nothing to do,the guy did nothing wrong. I don't know is it because the guy is a premium member or simply his friend but that's another example of a jackass mos. He could at least advised him shut it not necessarily something like an infraction or warning.
    Last edited by Abdou23; 06-25-2012 at 16:48.

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  3. #52
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    Agree 100%. I guess

    We all have different opinions on how to handle this and we are the many that can help change the forum for the better
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  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdou23 View Post
    We have to define what Active members mean, Are they people with most posts who keep posting any $#@! everywhere? or people who make quality threads? or people who make helpful posts and answer questions? or people who keep picking on and making fun of other members?

    One reason why new members don't stick is the lack of quality threads.Some people just start a thread, throw a link and that's it.A year ago i complained about this method and i was wrongfully received an infraction ( this is another stupid story i will explain later this post ) Threads should be more efficient and organized. Use quotes - photos - link to source - write your personal impressions. If it's for a game you should put all info bout this game,videos,photos,story, organize it very well, and keep updating it even when the game gets released.

    Another reason is that the maturity percentage among current members are very low,very very low. People love getting into worthless offensive discussions and always tend to call others names simply because they don't agree with them .And always makes winning a discussion their ultimate goal in life.

    Admins. need to appreciate members more, make a reward system or anything that encourage members to make helpful contributes.

    A lot of technical errors around here,500, and another one when sometimes i write a post and click post the page just doesn't load and i lost all what i have written.

    Admins are clueless when it comes to dub-forums, they were changed a lot in the past 2 years.You keep making sections for games like Uncharted or FF while it's obvious for the below average person that such games don't need their own forums.The only active one is COD.When i asked to make one for Battlefield as the COD one is so popular people told me that the game has and won't have that many threads although at the current date the game wasn't even released and had like 10 threads which i provided in my request thread.. ( like Uncharted had a chance of getting more than Battlefield )
    Admins should involve the community more in such decisions.

    And that's To name a few.
    =================
    The infraction story: i received an infraction from someone called Zoibie and when i asked him why you gave me that he told me he didn't know,someone else asked him to do it,when i told him to please check again because i don't deserve it, he never came back to me. That's an example of a jackass mod and how stupid things goes around here.

    Recently i posted something that someone was offended by , when i explained to him that i didn't mean it the way he thought he just kept annoying me i had to respond few times then i decided to ignore him, But he kept harassing me. i reported the guy twice and mods did nothing.I asked someone called DC to do something about him and he simply told me there is nothing to do,the guy did nothing wrong. I don't know is it because the guy is a premium member or simply his friend but that's another example of a jackass mos. He could at least advised him shut it not necessarily something like an infraction or warning.
    This is a really good explanation of issues here. I'm sure it does effect people. It's hard for me to come to with this issue because like I said before, if you just ignore these types of issues, then you'll be able to stay without these problems effecting you. That's just me though, in regards to my stance on it. These things you've brought up could certainly have a huge effect on others and ultimately the community group.




  5. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdou23 View Post
    Admins. need to appreciate members more, make a reward system or anything that encourage members to make helpful contributes.
    wasn't "Rep" used for this reason?
    it gave posters a gauge of any other posters status in the forum.
    it also gave members an idea of what other forum members responded well to.

    now we got this ugly like thing. to what end, i've yet to discern, but i'll accept it for now.
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  6. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    This is a really good explanation of issues here. I'm sure it does effect people. It's hard for me to come to with this issue because like I said before, if you just ignore these types of issues, then you'll be able to stay without these problems effecting you. That's just me though, in regards to my stance on it. These things you've brought up could certainly have a huge effect on others and ultimately the community group.
    I too try not to let these stuff bother me but sometimes i can't help it. But i'm still here aren't eye,and trying to help by posting this.
    Glad you like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    wasn't "Rep" used for this reason?
    it gave posters a gauge of any other posters status in the forum.
    it also gave members an idea of what other forum members responded well to.

    now we got this ugly like thing. to what end, i've yet to discern, but i'll accept it for now.
    I was more talking about prizes like making your name in different colour, a symbol besides your nickname,PSN codes,Beta codes. etc
    Rep is given by members to members.And it's really not that encouraging.
    Last edited by Abdou23; 06-25-2012 at 18:04.

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  8. #56
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    Members come and go over time, it is a natural part of any forum. I use to be an admin here but due to real life I had to give it up alongside most of my free time (which used to be spent here). I only login here once every few weeks now. Many of the members who pioneered this forum are gone, which is only natural given that it started in 2003 I believe. heck, most of the members I remember from 05 are gone!

    With the leaving of old members comes new members, the circle of Internet forum life!

    8 years and counting!

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  10. #57
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    People come and go, it's part of any society. One can't really expect everyone who registers to become active members. We've had these discussions before and it's not like we're running a ghost town now, is it? The community's still here, albeit lost a lot of its old members (Spider, smiggy, irish-sid, carocat, fishoutofwater, etc.). Now we just have other members who will be remembered one day like the members of the old. Just let things go on as it's supposed to be.
    Last edited by Cyklops; 06-26-2012 at 00:52.

  11. #58
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    Do we really have an answer. Or are we hoping for a outcome we all want

    I mean everyone has an excellent comment to put towards this issuse. And to be frankly honest. Can we really find the answer
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  12. #59
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    The real answer is that this place can't be perfect for everyone. One person might think everything is 1000% awesome, while three people think it needs to improve and remove things that person likes, or else! Just go with the flow.




  13. #60
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    Agreed, go with the flow and just accept this is a not so perfect forum, like others
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  14. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdou23 View Post
    We have to define what Active members mean, Are they people with most posts who keep posting any $#@! everywhere? or people who make quality threads? or people who make helpful posts and answer questions? or people who keep picking on and making fun of other members?

    We don't need to define "active" members, why should we? Active members should receive no special elevation above "normal" members. Or at least, no special privilege, like in the past. In the past admin/staff, there were groups of members that felt they were above others because they were old school. For some reason, they believe that time on site meant they could be asses to other members and get away with it. Rules should be applied to everyone, otherwise we should just call them guidelines.

    One reason why new members don't stick is the lack of quality threads.Some people just start a thread, throw a link and that's it.A year ago i complained about this method and i was wrongfully received an infraction ( this is another stupid story i will explain later this post ) Threads should be more efficient and organized. Use quotes - photos - link to source - write your personal impressions. If it's for a game you should put all info bout this game,videos,photos,story, organize it very well, and keep updating it even when the game gets released.

    I agree 100% here. However, what you are saying is 100% in your hand as a member. Staff and admin can't make people write better. We can make rules sort of guide people into habits. For example, we had the 25 character rule at one point. People complained because they didn't want the restriction. It was intended to prevent "LOL" "I agree" "" and other insightful posts and force members to actually write something out. We had the QPI, the Quality Posting Initiative, at one point. It failed because there was no payoff to actually being part of it. A lot of members did the same thing with the Writers' Army we started here. Since they got no direct reward other than helping the site be better, most just quit. The members are completely in charge of how the quality of the posts here are. We, as a site, shouldn't have to force or coerce people into posting well. If people did more of what you were saying here, then our posts and discussions would rock. Unfortunately, all too often someone posts a thread and trolls bash it down rather than discuss it.

    Another reason is that the maturity percentage among current members are very low,very very low. People love getting into worthless offensive discussions and always tend to call others names simply because they don't agree with them .And always makes winning a discussion their ultimate goal in life.

    Bingo. Our user base is young. However, if you look at a lot of the troll posts, or rude posts, they are often done in threads to dismiss positive news. People LOVE to be miserable here. If another console is failing, then it is a good day.

    Admins. need to appreciate members more, make a reward system or anything that encourage members to make helpful contributes.

    Members should be responsible for making their posts good. Simple as that. I do like the reward system though and I have a plan in place that can make it happen. However, at present, I see maybe two or three posts a month that truly deserve recognition. Gotta be honest, it just isn't bountiful pickings here for examples of great posts. I will make sure I still have a green light to move forward, if I do, then I will break out a post reward program. Staff can pick posts they believe are worthy and we can see about a monthly, or biweekly award of some kind.

    A lot of technical errors around here,500, and another one when sometimes i write a post and click post the page just doesn't load and i lost all what i have written.

    Believe me, we go round and round about this in the staff forums. Basic fact is right now we have boosted our system capacity up by twice what we normally ran. We have something like 4 servers at any given time, and we used to run on two. For some reason, likely coding, we still get these errors from time to time. Usually though, it is happening when the server is doing some sort of database management task. Can't be helped, you WILL get 500 errors if you are on during midnight time, EST.


    Admins are clueless when it comes to dub-forums, they were changed a lot in the past 2 years.You keep making sections for games like Uncharted or FF while it's obvious for the below average person that such games don't need their own forums.The only active one is COD.When i asked to make one for Battlefield as the COD one is so popular people told me that the game has and won't have that many threads although at the current date the game wasn't even released and had like 10 threads which i provided in my request thread.. ( like Uncharted had a chance of getting more than Battlefield )
    Admins should involve the community more in such decisions.

    Now, normally I would take offense at stuff like this, but I will try to ignore the 3 or 4 insults to staff during this, and try to not be a jackass. Subforums used to be a $#@! ton more plentiful here. Every new release got one, but what happened was people STILL posted in the PS3 Games section because subforums were too cumbersome for them. So now, basically we will likely just keep the COD forum active. Uncharted 3 received a subforum as part of a deal worked out with promoting the game. Sometimes, like it or not, the forum has to act as a business asset to prove we are behind a game. Example now, Dust 514. So rather than call us jackasses or say we don't know $#@!, try thinking that SOMETIMES the decisions made are for the betterment of the forum and not what will make you happy. We are not, repeat, NOT going to get into the polling or asking of what should and should not have a subforum. As peachy as that sounds, think of how many people would want their thread made and made NOW. Regardless of if the game even has a backing. I am sure people out there would love to have a MAG subforum again, but in truth, it has no buzz and a small community. The PS3 Games threads easily handle the traffic for most games. Uncharted's subforum died off less than two weeks after the game launched. Prime example. MAJOR game, little interest.


    And that's To name a few.
    =================
    The infraction story: i received an infraction from someone called Zoibie and when i asked him why you gave me that he told me he didn't know,someone else asked him to do it,when i told him to please check again because i don't deserve it, he never came back to me. That's an example of a jackass mod and how stupid things goes around here.

    Recently i posted something that someone was offended by , when i explained to him that i didn't mean it the way he thought he just kept annoying me i had to respond few times then i decided to ignore him, But he kept harassing me. i reported the guy twice and mods did nothing.I asked someone called DC to do something about him and he simply told me there is nothing to do,the guy did nothing wrong. I don't know is it because the guy is a premium member or simply his friend but that's another example of a jackass mos. He could at least advised him shut it not necessarily something like an infraction or warning.

    Everyone has a story like this. My advice is, if you run into situations like this, always take it to the next higher level. Complaining to the person who gave you the infraction in PM (NOT IN THE FORUM), is likely not going to change things.

    Reply directly to you above^


    As a reply to the thread:

    I picked your post to quote because it truly does highlight some good issues. Insults aside from the last part, staff tries to do their best. Will it always make you happy? Nope. Truthfully, I can't realistically make everyone happy. It would be a losing proposition, instead, I try to get the staff to look at things objectively. I try to find new things to liven up the forum. In the last year alone, we have given away more games, PSN cards, and swag than the site has in 5 yrs (not counting member giveaways). We ARE trying to get the people here engaged.

    Know what happens though? Here is a case by case:

    1. Contest opens - hardly any regular members join in, a few new members sign up just to win. Regular members $#@! about contest only being in the UK or US and then $#@! about people signing up just to win. Contest ends with very few entrants.

    2. New forum feature released in an effort to liven up the site - massive $#@! fest ensues with people complaining about how we clutter up the forums with new features. The masses clamor for new stuff, but complain when it is implemented.

    3. We try to get word out via Facebook and Twitter to get the site out to new people and make a name - again, people $#@! and moan that we are socializing the site and Facebook is evil. They don't care that one person sharing a news story with 500 of their closest Farmville friends COULD bring a dozen new members to the site. That is more revenue, and more revenue = bug fixes and features.

    4. we put a feedback tab that links to a database to track and prioritize site issues - yup, you guessed it, people moaned that it cluttered the site and those same people complain when things are broken after they disabled the feedback tab.

    5. people want more features on the site, more goodies to win - we started getting more aggressive bringing ad revenue in, guess what happened next?

    6. people wanted an icon shop back. all prior to VB4.0 shops were dead when VB 4.0 got released, plus the old shop was a huge hole for hackers. We looked for a while and finally got a shop up and functional. Care to guess what happened?

    Each and every thing the staff does here is met with extreme resistance. Yes, there are site issues. yes the ads are annoying. yes, Facebook puts people off. I can go on for quite a while at the things we have tried in order to build community that have been beaten down and criticized rather than see how it works out.

    ALL of these things though are something that YOU as members can embrace and use to affect the site's life. You asked what you can do? Get the word out. Tweet our stories, link to Facebook, tell your friends. Hell, if you want something written that no one has addressed, draft an article and send it to the editors. The community needs to embrace the site rather than sit back and criticize it. It is fine to be critical though, and let us know if something isn't working, but part of that is also trying and using the stuff we implement rather than instantly dismissing it. I am not asking people to stop giving feedback, all I am saying is, consider trying to see where we were coming from rather than firing at all guns.

    Like someone said before, this period of time for gaming news is very, very stale. Only with new hardware will we see new life.
    LMAO

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  16. #62
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    If you want i will do the same thing
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    I don't think I'll ever stop disliking newbies though..lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuguy View Post
    No need to quote the actual post
    Besides one or two desperate measures, You basically saying nothing can be done.

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    Most of the time things like this happen because of a grudge, hitting their boiling point, or just plain boredom. You can't control it. I try to space out my times when I get really active and just a casual poster. Like right now, I'm out of school and I post constantly and it feels fresh. While in school I just posting casually to stay connected but nowhere near the level when I'm not busy. I know some will blame other members, admins/mods for their reason leaving, but they will have had their reasons in the end that they won't reveal. Prime example VB, left said his life was taking him in a new direction and was basically following it and it didn't involve PSU. Nothing you can do to stop that...sadly.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdou23 View Post
    Besides one or two desperate measures, You basically saying nothing can be done.
    No, most of what I was saying is out of staff control. Posters ultimately determine the fate of a forum.

    I can't make all of you better posters. That is on YOU to decide. There are some things that we can try to entice new members to join, but that isn't going to fix what is here and broken, which is the attitude members have towards each other.

    Case in point... new member joined about 4 weeks ago. His second post on the forum yielded about ten insults, smart ass answers, and no help to him at all. So he asked me to remove his account.

    That isn't anything staff can fix.

    This happens more than you think BTW. And not always towards new members. A lot of threads derail simply because a poster acts like an ass when his belief in console is dashed. Doesn't matter if you are pro-sony or pro-360. No violins here for either camp because it happens across the board. "hey check out this cool new feature" - forum replies "that sucks, that company blows ass and is doomed"

    Typical summarized responses there. No discussion takes place here at all any more. Again, users issue not staff.
    LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuguy View Post
    No, most of what I was saying is out of staff control. Posters ultimately determine the fate of a forum.

    I can't make all of you better posters. That is on YOU to decide. There are some things that we can try to entice new members to join, but that isn't going to fix what is here and broken, which is the attitude members have towards each other.

    Case in point... new member joined about 4 weeks ago. His second post on the forum yielded about ten insults, smart ass answers, and no help to him at all. So he asked me to remove his account.

    That isn't anything staff can fix.

    This happens more than you think BTW. And not always towards new members. A lot of threads derail simply because a poster acts like an ass when his belief in console is dashed. Doesn't matter if you are pro-sony or pro-360. No violins here for either camp because it happens across the board. "hey check out this cool new feature" - forum replies "that sucks, that company blows ass and is doomed"

    Typical summarized responses there. No discussion takes place here at all any more. Again, users issue not staff.
    Yep I have to say that is the biggest problem with veteran members leaving. I can't count how many times that I see a discussion about how someone is leaving because they are tired of everything. I'm not saying that there wasn't actually a situation that arisen but there are too many grudges on here. I've never understood it because most of it results from contradicting opinions getting way too out of hand. I don't understand how so many people can get furious about something said that doesn't fit their own opinion. Honestly isn't that what forums are for? An open format to discuss things.

    I've had one knock down drag out argument since I've joined, right when I became active, and that was because the other member was just being belligerent. I come to find out that he was good and getting under everyone's skin but I forgot about and just moved on. We never confronted each other again about it. I just wish more of our veteran members could work out these situations instead of despising each other. We are all part of a community here, sure there will be arguments from time to time but no reason to let them live on for an extended period of time.




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  23. #69
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    I'm still fairly new here, but I really like this place. Like others have said, there really is nothing we can do. The site can do massive contests; we, as a community, can keep posts to the highest of quality, and we still wouldn't be able to ensure that members would stay. Life happens. Things change all the time. It's why I only get to game maybe 2 to 3 hours a week, whereas, 5 years ago, I'd probably be able to play 2 to 3 hours a day. And then there is favoritism, and I don't necessarily mean between the Mods, but among members. I actually stopped visiting a certain thread because of it. I'm not butt hurt about it or anything, and isn't worth getting into, but it's just an annoyance. I just ignore it and go on with the rest of my day. No biggie.

    As for getting new members to stay: Again, the site can do what it can with contests, etc. to bring people in, and we can spread the word as best we can, but once someone joins, it's up to that person to determine if they enjoy this place or not. It's really not in anyone's control but that person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    Yep I have to say that is the biggest problem with veteran members leaving. I can't count how many times that I see a discussion about how someone is leaving because they are tired of everything. I'm not saying that there wasn't actually a situation that arisen but there are too many grudges on here. I've never understood it because most of it results from contradicting opinions getting way too out of hand. I don't understand how so many people can get furious about something said that doesn't fit their own opinion. Honestly isn't that what forums are for? An open format to discuss things.

    I've had one knock down drag out argument since I've joined, right when I became active, and that was because the other member was just being belligerent. I come to find out that he was good and getting under everyone's skin but I forgot about and just moved on. We never confronted each other again about it. I just wish more of our veteran members could work out these situations instead of despising each other. We are all part of a community here, sure there will be arguments from time to time but no reason to let them live on for an extended period of time.
    I'm not sure if veterans leaving is the real issue or not enough new members sticking around. Forums can really by cyclic where the old move on and the new become the old. People will leave all the time for personal reasons, sometimes life just gets hectic, etc. What I think is a bigger issue is getting newer members to stick around. I totally agree with what you said though.

    People don't discuss things, they just argue. I agree that it SHOULD be an open format to discuss things, but you get topics that really bring the worst out of the community. Overall, I still think this site is a lot better than most when it comes to its community. There will always be assholes...

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  26. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Scud View Post
    I'm not sure if veterans leaving is the real issue or not enough new members sticking around. Forums can really by cyclic where the old move on and the new become the old. People will leave all the time for personal reasons, sometimes life just gets hectic, etc. What I think is a bigger issue is getting newer members to stick around. I totally agree with what you said though.

    People don't discuss things, they just argue. I agree that it SHOULD be an open format to discuss things, but you get topics that really bring the worst out of the community. Overall, I still think this site is a lot better than most when it comes to its community. There will always be assholes...
    Well said.




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  27. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaY_210 View Post
    I'm still fairly new here, but I really like this place. Like others have said, there really is nothing we can do. The site can do massive contests; we, as a community, can keep posts to the highest of quality, and we still wouldn't be able to ensure that members would stay. Life happens. Things change all the time. It's why I only get to game maybe 2 to 3 hours a week, whereas, 5 years ago, I'd probably be able to play 2 to 3 hours a day. And then there is favoritism, and I don't necessarily mean between the Mods, but among members. I actually stopped visiting a certain thread because of it. I'm not butt hurt about it or anything, and isn't worth getting into, but it's just an annoyance. I just ignore it and go on with the rest of my day. No biggie. As for getting new members to stay: Again, the site can do what it can with contests, etc. to bring people in, and we can spread the word as best we can, but once someone joins, it's up to that person to determine if they enjoy this place or not. It's really not in anyone's control but that person.
    We've already had contests numerous times before and membership didnt increase during that time. I think cuguy is right its definitely a member issue. Also people come and go as their life circumstances change.

  28. #73
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    Once PS4 & Xbox 720 buzz starts to kick up I don't think there will be much problem keeping members around. There just isn't much to keep people interested and coming back for more right now imo. It is just a boring time in gaming because of the transition period where there isn't much activity on the gaming front.




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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    Once PS4 & Xbox 720 buzz starts to kick up I don't think there will be much problem keeping members around. There just isn't much to keep people interested and coming back for more right now imo. It is just a boring time in gaming because of the transition period where there isn't much activity on the gaming front.
    Definitley. Once the next gen begins this place will get pretty active.

  30. #75
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    This site claims to be PS3-centric but it never claims to be PS3-supportive, and in fact, over the past 7 years, has made a big point that it will never be a PS3 fan site. The odd thing about this "philosophy" is that part of this view is that PS3 and Sony slagging, bashing, bad-mouthing, slandering, yellow journalism, etc. are all fair game for posts to be left in Discussions, are not flamebait and perfectly acceptable to be mostly unmoderated -- unless there is the slightest hint that the negativity in turn starts getting applied to Microsoft and the Xbox. A lot of the activity people whine about missing was when this was rampant.

    You can see the stats on the first page. There are usually about 40 active members logged on and the list doesn't change much, with about 300 to 500 lurkers. There are almost 300,000 "members" with about 1,400 active members. It means there have been almost 300,000 unique members (no doubt, about 30% being repeat usernames for one person, I know one guy that had at least 5 identities on here at one time). Most of those 300,000 have been banned, mainly for being bots.

    Alexa traffic ranks PSU.com at 35,380. Teamxbox ranks at 30,592, so PSU isn't doing too bad there in comparison, especially when PSU is independent and Teamxbox is sponsored.

    A big problem that may not be surmountable is PSU is a British site and sometimes gets too provincial for Americans to "get it". It is like going to The Sun and wondering, who is that person and why am I supposed to care (not saying the Kardashians or Snookie is any better). The British started out being being PS3 fans in the beginning, then went over to the dark side for a few years, and only now starting to go back to the PS3 side.

    The other big problem is that the environment makes it very difficult when PS3 Discussions is basically being monopolized by a small handful of the the "basement" boys, usually gushing over anything MS there, then venturing out into the PS3 section to dig up every poorly written or outright deceitful blog postings or website article they can cherry-pick from N4G or VG247. It does get very tedious and tiring, especially if one has seen it go on for almost 7 years now. It is the way it is and there is little to indicate anything will change anytime soon.
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