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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I don't like the multiverse because I'm concerned it won't provide any actually real answers whatsoever. We may just hop into this rabbit trail of speculation and go farther from what the actual truth may be (providing it is even knowable).


    You keep saying that I'm somehow upset and dislike the theory because it could give answers that I personally don't like- except that's false. I was indifferent to multiverse until I did some reading into it and saw what skeptics were saying. To me, it's just poor science.


    You're missing my point with random chance, and yes I get your Einstein quote concerning "God not playing with dice" and his dislike for quantum mechanics. But that isn't actually what I'm talking about here, although I can understand why you'd think that is the case.


    What I'm saying is, simply appealing to chance to explain away deep underlying causes for particularly baffling facets of this universe is just not good enough. I mean the relationship between mathematics and this universe is also one that deserves more scrutiny. It just so happens that the very "code" of creation is decipherable and can be decoded? Science is entering the realm of philosophy now, it can't simply wave its hands and say "Well it works and frankly who cares?" it's all about the answers.


    I've done it before and I'll do it again lol:


    and of course:


    I'm just dubious about the multiverse's veracity. Like many, many others.

    Thank you for your two quotes- An interesting read. Can I ask where those quotes are from? They are hugely prejudiced and don't allow the reader to make up thier own mind... It echoes what you said about being indifferent until you did some reading!


    So let me get this right... When you talk about random chance, you talk about the "absurd universe" as described in your post? Personally, this is my least favourable explanation and is far more ugly than a multiverse. For the reason that it explains absolutely nothing.

    Having only experienced one universe, it limits my imagination here but I can't even comprehend a universe that's not structured from mathematics?! Can anyone?! Surely it must have a framework for it to exist? Patterns and laws? Afterall, our universe only exists because its total energy is 0... The perfect mathematical balance of Positive Energy equal to Negative Energy.

    I don't know about you but I'd be seriously f*cked off if the universe's "code" was not decipherable. I admire your concern for this phenomenon but it's a lot more philosophical than finding out what dark matter is, for example. Finding out HOW the universe works is the stepping stone to WHY it works. There's still much to learn.

    Can you tell me why you favour string theory? I must admit I have done little reading on this. But please at least explain why it could give us more answers.

    I want to spark some new life into this thread.... Anyone looking forward to the Curiosity landing on Mars in a few weeks time? Anybody know if there will be live feed of the entry/ descent/ landing?

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    Came from the lips of Paul Davies:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Davies

    http://cosmos.asu.edu/

    A genius in his own right and a former student of Wheeler.


    The book in particular, which is a fantastic read, is "The Goldilocks Enigma".

    I favor string theory over multiverse merely because I think it is a bit more tenable of the two. I think it is more logically consistent and testable, more rational. Don't get me wrong, with this or any other "big theory" we're basically skipping down the rainbow path of philosophy lol. All are based on underlying assumptions which cannot be tested and must be assumed..


    The lines between "scientist" "theologian" and "philosopher" all kind of diminish once we've gone this far.

    And yea, I cannot comprehend a universe that could be so fundamentally different. That being said, we are a product of this universe (and its creator, if you have that kind of faith) so it is only natural we cannot imagine what other 'boxes' might be like outside of the one we find ourselves in.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 07-18-2012 at 20:29.


  3. #78
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    After all the discussion about space and time, this may seems like a stupid question, but what exactly is at a galaxy's core?
    It shine so bright due to the billions of stars right? But why is the concentration of stars so great in the middle? Also, if such huge stars are packed in a relatively small area, then wont they collide into one another due to gravitational pull?

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    An enormous cluster of millions\billions of stars, being drawn around a super massive blackhole.


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    How do you tell the difference between a sociapath, a person who does wrong and doesn't care, and a person who does wrong and is unaware of it? I mean, the serial killers in jail, are they sociopaths?

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    I have to ask, what does this have to do with science? lol


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I have to ask, what does this have to do with science? lol
    I thought studying the mind had something to do with science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    How do you tell the difference between a sociapath, a person who does wrong and doesn't care, and a person who does wrong and is unaware of it? I mean, the serial killers in jail, are they sociopaths?
    Those are the same thing. A sociopath is someone who generally lacks empathy, guilt, and shows antisocial traits. Keep in mind that most psychopaths are not violent or hostile. However, this state of mind can allow someone to develop an unrestricted want or love to kill and hurt; it's easy to do it when you get the adrenaline rush to commit a thrill and not feel any remorse after you do it. They are like this because their brains are wired differently, and the locals of the brain that cause empathy simply do not work.

    I assume most of the jailed serial killers possess psychological dysfunction as the former term is almost always paired with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    An enormous cluster of millions\billions of stars, being drawn around a super massive blackhole.
    ooo!, whilst we're on the subject, what do you make of the bar at the center of galaxies?
    i've never been able to make any sense of it, and i've discussed it to death with friends. we always came to the conclusion that black holes were screwing with the gravitational fields. ie, they sort of tumbled around in the galactic core avoiding each other....sort of like a Möbius strip

    personally, i dispute the whole 'one big black hole' thing.....black holes have a finite capacity. it cannot be consuming that much mass without us seeing otherwise. this isn't a theory i hold in high regard though im entirely happy accepting the big black hole theory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    After all the discussion about space and time, this may seems like a stupid question, but what exactly is at a galaxy's core?
    It shine so bright due to the billions of stars right? But why is the concentration of stars so great in the middle? Also, if such huge stars are packed in a relatively small area, then wont they collide into one another due to gravitational pull?
    Concentration is a realitive term. You have to realize the space between these stars is huge. Millions of miles. It's not like they are bumping into each other. If you also look into how galaxys form you'd know things generally move in the same direction. Imagine like our solar system but thounsands of times bigger. All these stars orbiting.

    Somebody get me a doctor, I ain't feelin' ill ...But I ain't feelin' this at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    ooo!, whilst we're on the subject, what do you make of the bar at the center of galaxies?
    i've never been able to make any sense of it, and i've discussed it to death with friends. we always came to the conclusion that black holes were screwing with the gravitational fields. ie, they sort of tumbled around in the galactic core avoiding each other....sort of like a Möbius strip

    personally, i dispute the whole 'one big black hole' thing.....black holes have a finite capacity. it cannot be consuming that much mass without us seeing otherwise. this isn't a theory i hold in high regard though im entirely happy accepting the big black hole theory.
    Black holes don't mess with the gravitational field. That's pretty much impossible. Black holes have gravity appropriate to it's mass. And nothing tumbles in space. It has a set orbit. I'm not sure what you mean by a bar in the center of galaxys but I do know black holes bend light which gives a streaking effect when we view it.

    Somebody get me a doctor, I ain't feelin' ill ...But I ain't feelin' this at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by btbam View Post
    Black holes don't mess with the gravitational field. That's pretty much impossible. Black holes have gravity appropriate to it's mass. And nothing tumbles in space. It has a set orbit. I'm not sure what you mean by a bar in the center of galaxys but I do know black holes bend light which gives a streaking effect when we view it.
    I think he is referring to the gravitational lensing like you said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    personally, i dispute the whole 'one big black hole' thing.....black holes have a finite capacity. it cannot be consuming that much mass without us seeing otherwise. this isn't a theory i hold in high regard though im entirely happy accepting the big black hole theory.
    There's zero indication that black holes have a finite hold.

    And I'm sure there are several black holes present, but there's likely a very large one that's really pulling the strings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by btbam View Post
    Black holes don't mess with the gravitational field. That's pretty much impossible. Black holes have gravity appropriate to it's mass. And nothing tumbles in space. It has a set orbit. I'm not sure what you mean by a bar in the center of galaxys but I do know black holes bend light which gives a streaking effect when we view it.
    all that you said, i already know
    which is what led me to post the discussion. the bar in the middle of the galaxies does not conform to our understanding of 'gravity', if it did i wouldn't have brought it up.

    also, you've taken some of what i said out of context, i made reference to the Möbius strip, which is where i used the word tumble. i specifically stated that me and my friends decided this, its not written in a book somewhere. whilst im the strongest in disbelieving the "One giant black hole" my other friends also have varying levels of doubt. i also stated that i except the current model. i was merely looking for discussion on the matter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    There's zero indication that black holes have a finite hold.

    And I'm sure there are several black holes present, but there's likely a very large one that's really pulling the strings.
    black holes are an open field. suffice to say, black holes cannot consume infinitely. from my understanding, energy is ejected from the black hole and naturally, this causes the black holes gravitational field lines to distort. if i recall correctly the process was similar to a star dying . essentially, the disturbed field lines cause friction which increases the temperature of the black hole. i believe Hawking Radiation supports this theory in some respect.
    however, in this case we simply end up talking about QFT and quantum entanglement again. besides, everything has entropy. black holes included.

    this video gives some impression of what im talking about: Click Me
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    Indeed, the only way we can 'see' a black hole is through its light distorting effects. In and of itself, a black hole gives off no light (as it cannot escape its massive gravity) therefore rendering it invisible. We can only see it by its interaction with its surroundings.

    There are other tell tale signs though, like the massive amounts of radiation.


  17. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Came from the lips of Paul Davies:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Davies

    http://cosmos.asu.edu/

    A genius in his own right and a former student of Wheeler.


    The book in particular, which is a fantastic read, is "The Goldilocks Enigma".

    I favor string theory over multiverse merely because I think it is a bit more tenable of the two. I think it is more logically consistent and testable, more rational. Don't get me wrong, with this or any other "big theory" we're basically skipping down the rainbow path of philosophy lol. All are based on underlying assumptions which cannot be tested and must be assumed..


    The lines between "scientist" "theologian" and "philosopher" all kind of diminish once we've gone this far.

    And yea, I cannot comprehend a universe that could be so fundamentally different. That being said, we are a product of this universe (and its creator, if you have that kind of faith) so it is only natural we cannot imagine what other 'boxes' might be like outside of the one we find ourselves in.
    Aha! Thank you. I actually have The goldilocks Enigma on my bookshelf at home and have read it cover to cover. I agree that it's very good read. I know it refers to the multiverses (real and fake ones), the one-chance universe etc etc but those quotes aren't straight form that book are they?! I would've remembered that. Well I hope I would've!

    @ FijiandoceAre you talking about the shape of the galaxy when you say "bar"? The type that looks like this?...

    I'm not sure how to actually put in the picture but the link is there.

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    I suspected you had read it since we first started conversing, actually. You dropped a few lines here and there that were undoubtedly influenced by Davies.

    And yea, those quotes are verbatim from the book lol. I hand typed them myself and uploaded a ton of them onto my Facebook page. For uses such as this, it comes in real handy.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 07-19-2012 at 19:55.


  19. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_jim View Post
    Are you talking about the shape of the galaxy when you say "bar"? The type that looks like this?...

    I'm not sure how to actually put in the picture but the link is there.
    more like this, though it can also be seen in the one you provided. this one is just clearer



    gravitational field lines are uniform, but notice that in the center there are two bars that travel inward. if gravity was uniform this shouldn't happen
    that being said, and im not sure if i clarified, the bar is more pronounced in our galaxy.
    i've given my theory (pretty bad one imo ) i was wondering what others thought.

    p.s i apologize for my lax use of 'uniform'....i hate typing.
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  20. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    more like this, though it can also be seen in the one you provided. this one is just clearer



    gravitational field lines are uniform, but notice that in the center there are two bars that travel inward. if gravity was uniform this shouldn't happen
    that being said, and im not sure if i clarified, the bar is more pronounced in our galaxy.
    i've given my theory (pretty bad one imo ) i was wondering what others thought.

    p.s i apologize for my lax use of 'uniform'....i hate typing.
    I wasn't aware that bar galaxies didn't conform to our understanding of gravity? Usually in science, we reject (or modify) theories if they don't match the observations. AFAIK our theories are succesful in every case. Dark matter fills in the gaps of our lack of understanding.

    Correct if I'm wrong but isn't the milky way a spiral galaxy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I suspected you had read it since we first started conversing, actually. You dropped a few lines here and there that were undoubtedly influenced by Davies.

    And yea, those quotes are verbatim from the book lol. I hand typed them myself and uploaded a ton of them onto my Facebook page. For uses such as this, it comes in real handy.
    Aha! I'm quite pleased by that! Sometimes I worry If I'm really taking it all in, evidently I am.

    If you haven't already read it, I would suggest "Why does E=MC[squared]?" by Brian Cox. One of the better books I've read. He's one of the very very few physicists that are a household name in the UK. He's doing a good job at getting people excited about physics again... And middle-aged housewifes love him. Is he known/ well-known in the US?

    I have one quote on my facebook but I absolutely love it...

    Penn Jilette "If every trace of any single religion were wiped out again and nothing was passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it wout again. Without hype, Lot's salt-heap ho would never be thought of again. Without science, the Earth still goes around the sun and someday someone will find a way to prove that again."
    I think there is a spelling mistake in there somewhere but kept it in for authenticity. Can't even remember where I copied and pasted it from.

    I have nothing against religion or the morals and values they influence... Just the fact that they try and explain the universe with magic and other nonsense. It was good enough 3000 years ago... not anymore. We live in the age of truth.
    Last edited by the_jim; 07-20-2012 at 14:05.

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    Does the universe have a purpose?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    ooo!, whilst we're on the subject, what do you make of the bar at the center of galaxies?
    i've never been able to make any sense of it, and i've discussed it to death with friends. we always came to the conclusion that black holes were screwing with the gravitational fields. ie, they sort of tumbled around in the galactic core avoiding each other....sort of like a Möbius strip

    personally, i dispute the whole 'one big black hole' thing.....black holes have a finite capacity. it cannot be consuming that much mass without us seeing otherwise. this isn't a theory i hold in high regard though im entirely happy accepting the big black hole theory.
    Aside from "HP" and "MP" points?

    Being serious, it's usually bursts of supercharged matter for when black holes suck so much matter at a given time that they end up spitting the matter right back out. Honestly, I can't quite explain it really well so here's an article to read and mull over.

    http://chandra.harvard.edu/chronicle..._ce/index.html

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    The UK company developing an engine for a new type of spaceplane says it has successfully demonstrated the power unit's enabling technology.

    Reaction Engines Ltd (REL) of Culham, Oxfordshire, ran a series of tests on key elements of its Sabre propulsion system under the independent eye of the European Space Agency (Esa).

    Esa's experts have confirmed that all the demonstration objectives were met.

    REL claims the major technical obstacle to its ideas has now been removed.

    "This is a big moment; it really is quite a big step forward in propulsion," said Alan Bond, the driving force behind the Sabre engine concept.

    The company must now raise the £250m needed to complete the next phase of development.

    This would essentially take the project to the final designs that could be handed to a manufacturer.
    Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20510112

    It's looking good. Here is an animation that gives an overview of SKYLON:



    And further details of the engine:



    http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/
    Last edited by Valefor; 12-03-2012 at 16:37.

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