Page 1 of 2 1 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 43
  1. #1
    Dedicated Member
    Versus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    27
    Posts
    1,489
    Rep Power
    61
    Points
    5,444 (0 Banked)

    Square Enix thinks current console gen has lasted too long

    Square Enix's worldwide technology director has said that the length of the current console generation is "the biggest mistake [Sony and Microsoft] ever made".

    In an interview with GamesIndustry, Julien Merceron shared his opinion that those developers who grew bored of the current generation were pushed into exploring iOS and browsers, and were now unlikely to return to hardware.

    "We have Sony and Microsoft talking about this generation lasting seven, eight, nine or even 10 years and it's the biggest mistake they've ever made," he claimed.

    "This generation has been way too long, and I say this because you have a lot of developers that work on a new platform, and perhaps will not succeed, so they will wait for the next generation, and will jump on that platform. You could not do that with this generation though. So these developers went elsewhere to see if the grass was greener. They found web browsers, they found iOS, they found other things and a lot of them won't come back to the hardware platforms. So you could look at it that thanks to Microsoft and Sony and the length of this generation, it helped the emergence of other platforms and helped them get strong before the next hardware comes out."

    Merceron elaborated by suggesting that future generations could afford to be shorter, thanks to simpler hardware and increased online functionality.

    He explained, "With a simple architecture you do give more chances to everybody, which I believe is very important based on the critical business situation we're in. Games will be more costly. If you start to make the entry bar really high, more studios will die, more publishers will die, there'll be less titles on platforms, etc. If you make it accessible, you give more chances to people, you'll have a better portfolio at launch, but now you also have a problem with your longevity.

    "Now you don't need to manage longevity by complexity of programming, because your longevity is ensured by your online model. And I would suggest that maybe we don't want long generations."

    The worldwide technical director concluded by discussing the company's latest tech demo, Agni's Philosophy, and asserted developers will always be plagued by the Uncanny Valley.

    "As soon as we ramp up the quality on graphics, this level of quality on facial animations won't be good enough. Some games succeed to be at the limit of the Uncanny Valley, but… the problem is that as rendering quality will go up, new problems will surface. The quality of the facial and body animations and the acting won't be good enough. So that is why as you evolve, you have to upgrade your physics, rendering and animations," he stated.

    "It will always be a problem. As you push something, you have to recalibrate and rebalance these out. You can't have these stunning graphics while characters are acting funny on the screen."


    http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/07/10/square-enix-current-console-generation-has-lasted-way-too-long


    In this article SE's "world wide technology director" (whatever the F that means) makes so many ass backwards statements, it's unbelieveable IMO. SE is the LAST games company on earth to be saying this when they haven't even mastered how to create great games on current gen systems.


    1. First off how is a long lasting generation of consoles a bad thing? Well I mean I know alot of people think it's getting stale but we have to ask ourself "do we really NEED new consoles"?

    2. How is it that companies will wait for a new console because they weren't successful in the current one? How is it supposed to make their game(s) more appealing? Too much competition in a current cycle for them to compete? We've seen games break through plenty times b4 haven't we? Look at the recent Dragon's Dogma...

    3. How are devs using iOS and Web Browsers to sell their games? Is he just talking about casual game devs are more traditional devs? That doesn't make sense for traditional devs...

    4. He's trying to make an argument that "if the entry bar on graphics is too high then lesser devs can't compete". Well then how are EVEN NEWER consoles supposed to fix that? They by definition have a higher entry bar!!!

    5. "Longevity is determined by your online model". You mean having games have a longer lifespan through DLC? Not disagreeing with em here really, I just want him to elaborate on what he meant...

    6. At the end he's trying to talk about improving graphics etc. So is this what this is all about? Just graphics?


    My main point is that I think SE is being hugely hypocritical here because if there just making an argument about graphics in games then what about the gameplay? We all know FFXIII failed on exploration. This is the same company who claims making towns in HD is hard, and thinking linear gameplay is ok for an RPG in this day and age. So who the HELL are they to be making a philosophical point on how console gens should be?
    Last edited by Metal King Slime; 07-13-2012 at 10:09. Reason: Posting article, as requested...

  2. Likes VayMasters86 likes this post
  3. #2
    Forum Guru
    jlippone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Age
    37
    Posts
    3,824
    Rep Power
    86
    Points
    10,258 (0 Banked)
    1.
    To offer fresh experiences, yes new consoles are needed or a hardware independent way to increase computing resources. (IE. could gaming.)

    4.
    The entry level of graphics get easier to get to with each new generation, it's simply easier to have good looking graphics and fluid gameplay if you have 10x the power.

    6.
    Graphics is the easy thing to talk about and something that people can see the difference easily.
    It is not feasible to talk about new methods in AI, physics, persistence of world etc. as there are very limited amount of people who would understand it.

    There is a lot to explorer in game worlds, but the risk of doing something truly big and unique is huge.. we had couple of games that tried to go that way this generation, but apparently the task was too big.. (512MB of memory is huge limitation if you want to do something unique in world scale.)
    Last edited by jlippone; 07-13-2012 at 08:44.
    -------
    Couple of nice blog posts about OpenGL.
    The Truth on OpenGL Driver Quality
    Things that drive me nuts about OpenGL

  4. #3
    Ultimate Veteran
    Metal King Slime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Slime Hill
    Age
    23
    Posts
    22,604
    Rep Power
    192
    Points
    11,213 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    I'm just going to echo what I posted in the PSU section:

    I still have a couple games that I'm eager to get my hands on and play before moving onto the PlayStation 4. Grand Theft Auto V, Final Fantasy Versus XIII, The Last of Us, XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Sleeping Dogs etc.

    Square Enix aren't exactly in the best position to criticize 'the big three' for a longer generation of video games though when they themselves seem lax on managing the dozen or so titles they've announced in the past 6 years. This is the same company that had the balls to tease another sequel to Final Fantasy XIII when they could be using that time and manpower to help Tetsuya Nomura and his team wrap up work on Final Fantasy Versus XIII. No sight of Kingdom Hearts III either.

    They just took advantage of the whole 10-year console life-cycle from Sony and now that people are upset with the way they've handled themselves, they echo what Epic Games and Crytek have been saying, as if the arrival of the next generation will give them a clean slate.

    Team Ico hasn't even released The Last Guardian. Can you imagine what it would be like for them if next-gen consoles came out tomorrow?
    Thanks to Kwes for the avatar and Sylar for the signature!

    Do you love GTA? Check out my general discussion thread here!

  5. Likes Itachi , GalapagosaraY likes this post
  6. #4
    Dedicated Member
    Versus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    27
    Posts
    1,489
    Rep Power
    61
    Points
    5,444 (0 Banked)
    Yep, SE just wants to give themselves a clean slate with a new batch on consoles because they did so $#@!ty this gen. I think your dead on there! There just looking to what benefits their sorry asses! (oh and thx for posting da article for me XD)

  7. Likes GalapagosaraY likes this post
  8. #5
    Ultimate Veteran
    AaronSOLDIER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    PSN ID
    AaronSOLDIER
    Age
    22
    Posts
    20,812
    Rep Power
    119
    Points
    69,381 (0 Banked)
    Items Final Fantasy Versus XIIIPS3 SlimFinal Fantasy XFinal Fantasy IXFinal Fantasy VIIIFinal Fantasy VIIFinal Fantasy VIFinal Fantasy VFinal Fantasy IVFinal Fantasy IIIFinal Fantasy IIFinal Fantasy
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Apparently not long enough, we're still waiting for Versus.

    Please help our Final Fantasy Community get off the ground:
    http://forums.final7fantasy.com/

  9. Likes Itachi , Bio, Versus, Two4DaMoney likes this post
  10. #6
    Elite Member
    mikeghtmare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Age
    33
    Posts
    1,982
    Rep Power
    63
    Points
    2,477 (0 Banked)
    Items BowserDoom
    According to Square this gen has lasted too long, yet they have sooo little to show for it.
    I'm still waiting for a captivating must have game from them, and it look like I won't get to see one this gen.
    Thou shall not question my lame sig
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. Likes Fon likes this post
  12. #7
    Ultimate Veteran
    Lefein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Age
    33
    Posts
    22,962
    Rep Power
    194
    Points
    108,400 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Funny, they didn't announce FFvsXIII as a PS4 title..

  13. Likes Versus likes this post
  14. #8
    Super Moderator
    Lethal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kansas City
    PSN ID
    Lethal_NFS
    Age
    34
    Posts
    11,488
    Rep Power
    144
    Points
    80,327 (0 Banked)
    Items Michelle MarshAngelina JolieScarlett JohanssonOlivia WildeLucy Pinder
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    I will agree that this gen has lasted too long. I am starving for the next console!!!!

    Since the PS3 launched, I have had like 3 or 4 kids. Well, my wife did anyways.

  15. Likes Bigdoggy , Wrath likes this post
  16. #9
    Supreme Veteran
    keefy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Sock Gap
    Posts
    17,963
    Rep Power
    127
    Points
    63,748 (0 Banked)
    Items Gran Turismo 5Michelle MarshDoomid SoftwareCommodore 64Metal Gear Solid
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Is there going to be a final, final fantasy game?

  17. #10
    Master Sage
    Two4DaMoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Age
    27
    Posts
    12,532
    Rep Power
    111
    Points
    16,338 (75,576 Banked)
    Items Naughty DogPS3 SlimNaughty DogUser name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by AaronSOLDIER View Post
    Apparently not long enough, we're still waiting for Versus.
    thread


  18. #11
    Ultimate Veteran
    AaronSOLDIER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    PSN ID
    AaronSOLDIER
    Age
    22
    Posts
    20,812
    Rep Power
    119
    Points
    69,381 (0 Banked)
    Items Final Fantasy Versus XIIIPS3 SlimFinal Fantasy XFinal Fantasy IXFinal Fantasy VIIIFinal Fantasy VIIFinal Fantasy VIFinal Fantasy VFinal Fantasy IVFinal Fantasy IIIFinal Fantasy IIFinal Fantasy
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Is there going to be a final, final fantasy game?
    At the rate they're going, yes.

    Please help our Final Fantasy Community get off the ground:
    http://forums.final7fantasy.com/

  19. #12
    Extreme Poster
    mistercrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Texas
    PSN ID
    mistercrow
    Posts
    25,535
    Rep Power
    166
    Points
    169,417 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by AaronSOLDIER View Post
    Apparently not long enough, we're still waiting for Versus.
    lol I was going to say something along the same lines.

  20. #13
    Master Guru
    Wrath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Germany
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,465
    Rep Power
    97
    Points
    34,329 (0 Banked)
    Items Dark SoulsDemons Souls CoverDark Souls Cover
    I would really like to see the next generation as well. This one's getting stale...



  21. #14
    Elite Sage
    BBK..'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Bristol!!
    Age
    24
    Posts
    10,079
    Rep Power
    89
    Points
    44,218 (15,799 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal_NFS View Post
    I will agree that this gen has lasted too long. I am starving for the next console!!!!

    Since the PS3 launched, I have had like 3 or 4 kids. Well, my wife did anyways.
    I love how in this post it comes across like you don't even know how many kids you've had in the last 6 years


    BBK. Tapatalking.

  22. Likes Lethal , Wrath likes this post
  23. #15
    Elite Member
    D3seeker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Severn, Maryland
    PSN ID
    D3seeker
    Posts
    1,831
    Rep Power
    55
    Points
    1,932 (20,000 Banked)
    Items PS3 Slim
    Well, it's not as bad here as the comment section for the article. Yeah Square hasn't deliver necessarily but that's no reason to dis their opinion. They aren't the only devs who have cried for the next gen to hurry up and get here after all. I'm in agreement as well this gen seem too long.


  24. #16
    Master Guru
    Wrath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Germany
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,465
    Rep Power
    97
    Points
    34,329 (0 Banked)
    Items Dark SoulsDemons Souls CoverDark Souls Cover
    This whole developer bashing is ridiculous at best. People will never be happy and always criticize everyone and their mom until their ears bleed.

    Seriously, people hate on EA, Activision (understandably), Capcom, Square, Ubisoft and god knows who else.

    Is this really what we've become? Do you even appreciate anything out there? What all the hatred comments show is the level of hypocrisy across gamers. You keep on downplaying Square because it hasn't brought out your beloved FF VII crap remake but in the end all of you will jump on Versus XIII like nothing ever happened. Same with all the other listed companies that apparently are oh so evil. Derp.

    My point is that everyone needs to take a GIANT chill pill and stop the hating because in the end it makes you look like absolutely pathetic individuals.

    If Square thinks the next generation should come sooner than later, SO BE IT! To each their own, right?



  25. Likes Itachi , Thorzilla likes this post
  26. #17
    Ultimate Veteran
    Metal King Slime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Slime Hill
    Age
    23
    Posts
    22,604
    Rep Power
    192
    Points
    11,213 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
    This whole developer bashing is ridiculous at best. People will never be happy and always criticize everyone and their mom until their ears bleed.

    Seriously, people hate on EA, Activision (understandably), Capcom, Square, Ubisoft and god knows who else.

    Is this really what we've become? Do you even appreciate anything out there? What all the hatred comments show is the level of hypocrisy across gamers. You keep on downplaying Square because it hasn't brought out your beloved FF VII crap remake but in the end all of you will jump on Versus XIII like nothing ever happened. Same with all the other listed companies that apparently are oh so evil. Derp.

    My point is that everyone needs to take a GIANT chill pill and stop the hating because in the end it makes you look like absolutely pathetic individuals.

    If Square thinks the next generation should come sooner than later, SO BE IT! To each their own, right?
    Do you even play Final Fantasy games or do you just make it a habit to defend every development studio out there, regardless of the situation? And no, I don't care for a Final Fantasy VII remake. Try reading the posts of those "absolutely pathetic individuals" before replying.
    Thanks to Kwes for the avatar and Sylar for the signature!

    Do you love GTA? Check out my general discussion thread here!

  27. Likes VayMasters86, Minnzy likes this post
  28. #18
    Master Guru
    Wrath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Germany
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,465
    Rep Power
    97
    Points
    34,329 (0 Banked)
    Items Dark SoulsDemons Souls CoverDark Souls Cover
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksite View Post
    Do you even play Final Fantasy games or do you just make it a habit to defend every development studio out there, regardless of the situation? And no, I don't care for a Final Fantasy VII remake. Try reading the posts of those "absolutely pathetic individuals" before replying.
    Call it a habit, I just tend to see the good side of developers rather than the bad. How would you feel if all you heard from your customers was hatred? Yes, sometimes it is justified, but mostly it's just ignorance. Some publisher decides to enforce a questionable decision and all of a sudden the whole god damn studio needs to go out of business because of it? That's at least the vibe that I'm getting from most of these complaints.

    Hell, people can't even distinguish between developers and publishers so who am I kidding?
    Last edited by Wrath; 07-14-2012 at 01:14.



  29. #19
    Dedicated Member
    Versus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    27
    Posts
    1,489
    Rep Power
    61
    Points
    5,444 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
    This whole developer bashing is ridiculous at best. People will never be happy and always criticize everyone and their mom until their ears bleed.

    Seriously, people hate on EA, Activision (understandably), Capcom, Square, Ubisoft and god knows who else.

    Is this really what we've become? Do you even appreciate anything out there? What all the hatred comments show is the level of hypocrisy across gamers. You keep on downplaying Square because it hasn't brought out your beloved FF VII crap remake but in the end all of you will jump on Versus XIII like nothing ever happened. Same with all the other listed companies that apparently are oh so evil. Derp.

    My point is that everyone needs to take a GIANT chill pill and stop the hating because in the end it makes you look like absolutely pathetic individuals.

    If Square thinks the next generation should come sooner than later, SO BE IT! To each their own, right?
    Man u need to chill with that ignorant ass comment about people being butt hurt over a goddamn FFVII remake. Nobody said a damn $#@!ing thing about goddamn FFVII. VII doesn't have a damn thing to do with this topic man so shut up about that.

    U over there talking about hatred and hypocrisy from gamers because of this? The hypocrisy is coming from SE. The VersusXIII comments where warranted because it's a great point and a great example on how SE is being hypocritical. They don't need to be complanning this gen has lasted too long when there games this gen have taken steps backwards to past gens and not being able to complete games this gen like...... VERSUSXIII!

  30. #20
    Elite Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Oklahoma
    PSN ID
    Key2001
    Posts
    1,958
    Rep Power
    80
    Points
    9,124 (0 Banked)
    I can't help but feel that majority of developers were not ready for the current gen of consoles when they launched in 05/06. So, hopefully, the extra time will mean more of them will be ready this time around.

    As others have suggested, SE is one of the last developers/publishers that should be complaining about the length of this generation of consoles. They have needed every bit of hit and perhaps more with no VersusXIII release in sight yet. We have a better guess on when next gen consoles are going to release than we do VersusXIII.

    If they had not already announced VersusXIII I bet they would rename it to FFXIV and do the same thing they did with FFXIII (likely due to how long FXII took) and move it to next gen console(s).

  31. Likes VayMasters86 likes this post
  32. #21
    Master Guru
    Wrath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Germany
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,465
    Rep Power
    97
    Points
    34,329 (0 Banked)
    Items Dark SoulsDemons Souls CoverDark Souls Cover
    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    Man u need to chill with that ignorant ass comment about people being butt hurt over a goddamn FFVII remake. Nobody said a damn $#@!ing thing about goddamn FFVII. VII doesn't have a damn thing to do with this topic man so shut up about that.

    U over there talking about hatred and hypocrisy from gamers because of this? The hypocrisy is coming from SE. The VersusXIII comments where warranted because it's a great point and a great example on how SE is being hypocritical. They don't need to be complanning this gen has lasted too long when there games this gen have taken steps backwards to past gens and not being able to complete games this gen like...... VERSUSXIII!
    How many swear words did you use here? You seem to go through a very rough patch in your life at the moment.

    First, all your silly whining in the Playstation All Stars thread, now here. I feel for you, bro. I really do!

    Peace out.



  33. #22
    Veteran
    Bio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Battlefield
    Posts
    4,087
    Rep Power
    68
    Points
    8,302 (0 Banked)
    Wrath, what you say makes sense, but it's not about basing companies...it's about bashing company decisions most of the time. I don't think it's hypocrisy per se; I simply think many of us just want these companies to get their act together BECAUSE we like them and their franchises. We know it's not so easy for them to do that obviously (finances, resources, time, etc.) and we certainly aren't in their business...but sometimes it's difficult to believe other measures couldn't have been taken in spite of what this gen has become for developers/publishers (and at times, there really could have been). That's why I feel most gamers "complain".

    I agree that many of us should chill, though.
    Last edited by Bio; 07-14-2012 at 15:13.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bio
    Yep, NGP will retail at $300. We all know it's going to happen.

  34. Likes VayMasters86, Wrath likes this post
  35. #23
    Master Guru
    Wrath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Germany
    Age
    27
    Posts
    6,465
    Rep Power
    97
    Points
    34,329 (0 Banked)
    Items Dark SoulsDemons Souls CoverDark Souls Cover
    Quote Originally Posted by Bio View Post
    Wrath, what you say makes sense, but it's not about basing companies...it's about bashing company decisions most of the time. I don't think it's hypocrisy per se; I simply think many of us just want these companies to get their act together BECAUSE we like them and their franchises. We know it's not so easy for them to do that obviously (finances, resources, time, etc.) and we certainly aren't in their business...but sometimes it's difficult to believe other measures couldn't have been taken in spite of what this gen has become for developers/publishers (and at times, there really could have been). That's why I feel most gamers "complain".

    I agree that many of us should chill, though.
    See, this is the kind of reaction I welcome! Of course people can criticize a company's decision and who am I to tell them otherwise? It's just that the majority here does not exhibit the same level of maturity that you do - they are simply hating for the sake of hating.

    Look at the even bigger fish out there. Microsoft and Apple by way of example can do what they want and however they want and ultimately they would ALWAYS get flagged for every decision they make. But people seem to forget that this attitude is counterproductive because at the end of the day those companies just won't care enough as you keep on buying their products anyway.

    Criticize when criticism is justified, not when it's a popular thing to do. Otherwise, companies won't hear you!

    And criticizing a company for voicing their opinion about the launch of the next generation? Laughable at best... Especially considering that this was said by ONE MAN within that company.
    Last edited by Wrath; 07-14-2012 at 18:39.



  36. #24
    Ultimate Veteran
    Metal King Slime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Slime Hill
    Age
    23
    Posts
    22,604
    Rep Power
    192
    Points
    11,213 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
    See, this is the kind of reaction I welcome! Of course people can criticize a company's decision and who am I to tell them otherwise? It's just that the majority here does not exhibit the same level of maturity that you do - they are simply hating for the sake of hating.

    Look at the even bigger fish out there. Microsoft and Apple by way of example can do what they want and however they want and ultimately they would ALWAYS get flagged for every decision they make. But people seem to forget that this attitude is counterproductive because at the end of the day those companies just won't care enough as you keep on buying their products anyway.

    Criticize when criticism is justified, not when it's a popular thing to do. Otherwise, companies won't hear you!

    And criticizing a company for voicing their opinion about the launch of the next generation? Laughable at best... Especially considering that this was said by ONE MAN within that company.
    Again, you need to go back and read why people are posting their criticisms. You're continually undermining people for having an opposing opinion, regardless of the situation. Not too long ago, you went into the PC section and told people in the Dark Souls thread to settle with a direct and somewhat buggy port of Dark Souls. Just deal with it, right? Thanks.

    Not to mention that you never answered my question on whether or not you even play Final Fantasy games. And even if you were right, you express it by laughing at other individuals and calling them pathetic. Where was your "maturity" when responding to Versus?
    Last edited by Metal King Slime; 07-14-2012 at 19:33.
    Thanks to Kwes for the avatar and Sylar for the signature!

    Do you love GTA? Check out my general discussion thread here!

  37. Likes VayMasters86 likes this post
  38. #25
    Forum Sage
    DeviousOne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Orlando FL
    PSN ID
    DeviousOnePSU
    Age
    31
    Posts
    9,551
    Rep Power
    69
    Points
    61,675 (1,943 Banked)
    Items NintendoFirefox LogoPSN LogoWii BlackPaper MarioWiiUGran Turismo 53DSPS3 Slim
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    is that what they think?

    Well Square-Enix....


    ~~~OLD SKOOL~~~

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
vBCredits II Deluxe v2.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2010-2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.