Gun sales skyrocket after Colorado massacre

[keefy]

Being old kills more people than anything in the world.

[MATRIX 2]

lets get this out of the way right now, I have a lot of respect for cops but in this type of situation you are putting yourself as a hero which is bullshit to begin with man. if it were you, even if you been trained it doesn't matter this situation was so far out there I don't think you would react in such and such time. We are not in the movies here, this is real life, which means if it was a little skit you would have just shot an innocent human being. it's a situation you just wouldn't know until it's a bit to late.

now with that out of the way, would you have shot him by the time he killed the same number of people? yes I believe you would have acted a lot sooner but I still don't think it's even close to being fair that "if you were there etc etc etc". for pete sakes.

Rather have a fighting chance than be forced to cower and flee and be slaughtered.

Nobody is saying that somebody carrying would have undoubtedly ended the situation before multiple people could be killed. But the damage could have been less if the shooter had people returning fire and an active threat or threats to focus on rather than the unarmed fleeing people in the theater.

And shibby backed himself into that corner. If he would have said SWAT, I would have given him a pass. But the average cop is an idiot (not offense f34r, though I doubt anyone thinks you are an average cop) and can't shoot for shit past their basic qualification.

And we are just talking about 1 person in the theater carrying. If their were multiple people carrying then the situation would have likely ended even sooner.

[F34R]

lets get this out of the way right now, I have a lot of respect for cops but in this type of situation you are putting yourself as a hero which is bullshit to begin with man. if it were you, even if you been trained it doesn't matter this situation was so far out there I don't think you would react in such and such time. We are not in the movies here, this is real life, which means if it was a little skit you would have just shot an innocent human being. it's a situation you just wouldn't know until it's a bit to late.

now with that out of the way, would you have shot him by the time he killed the same number of people? yes I believe you would have acted a lot sooner but I still don't think it's even close to being fair that "if you were there etc etc etc". for pete sakes.

I'm not putting myself as a hero. Never have, never will. You don't know me. Leave it at that.

@Matrix

I wouldn't ever say that the average cop is an idiot. That's an extremely poor generalization.

[TRF]

It doesn't matter how many guns he's carrying, I could have a .22 but if I hit him in the head I'll disable him. In fact, if he wants to go all rambo, that'll make him less accurate and give me a better chance.

Fine, you poke your head out of cover and line up a shot while praying a stray bullet doesn't kill you.

[Shibby]

Fine, you poke your head out of cover and line up a shot while praying a stray bullet doesn't kill you.

Better than sitting there doing nothing and praying that he decides not to look into my row, shoot me and whoever I'm with, all the while killing other people.

[F34R]

Fine, you poke your head out of cover and line up a shot while praying a stray bullet doesn't kill you.

We just had something like that happen here, in public though. A regular citizen, who carries in his car, shot a guy that was in the process of putting bullets into a group of guys. He took a round in the process but stopped the guy from killing anyone. It happens. Some people are willing to put themselves on the line in order to try and protect others.

[-Kwesnoth-]

Fine, you poke your head out of cover and line up a shot while praying a stray bullet doesn't kill you.

Pussy. Thank god that there are people in the world that have the guts to do what is right, not what is safe.

[MATRIX 2]

I'm not putting myself as a hero. Never have, never will. You don't know me. Leave it at that.

@Matrix

I wouldn't ever say that the average cop is an idiot. That's an extremely poor generalization.

When it comes to shooting ability/gun handling.

[Vulgotha]

Lol that is definitely a harsh criticism levied at our LEO's out there.

[MATRIX 2]

Lol that is definitely a harsh criticism levied at our LEO's out there.

If you read up on firearm qualification tests for various city/county agencies and follow the news reports of negligent/accidental discharges by cops, it really isn't.

I'm not expecting every LEO to know all the laws they are supposed to enforce, but I do expect them to be extremely proficient with the various weapons they carry.

And most are not up to par.

[Vulgotha]

I can understand that view. I have a close LEO buddy of mine and I may inquire as to what he had to go through as to become a sheriff's deputy in NC concerning firearm qualifications.

[MATRIX 2]

I can understand that view. I have a close LEO buddy of mine and I may inquire as to what he had to go through as to become a sheriff's deputy in NC concerning firearm qualifications.

It also doesn't help that I live near some of the worst LEA's in the US. (PG county/DC police/Baltimore PD)

[Vulgotha]

I feel your pain. I lived in the Maryland\DC area for a long time... And while I thoroughly enjoyed much of Maryland, the more urban areas (especially in baltimore and close to DC) were horrendous.

[F34R]

If you read up on firearm qualification tests for various city/county agencies and follow the news reports of negligent/accidental discharges by cops, it really isn't.

I'm not expecting every LEO to know all the laws they are supposed to enforce, but I do expect them to be extremely proficient with the various weapons they carry.

And most are not up to par.

Again, that's just a generalization that doesn't have any support. If you wanna supply some info you're basing this on, I'd love to read it.

[TRF]

Pussy. Thank god that there are people in the world that have the guts to do what is right, not what is safe.

Getting shot ain't right OR safe. It has nothing to do with bravery, 'cuz if you try to get off a shot and fail, you're not helping ANYONE.

[MATRIX 2]

Again, that's just a generalization that doesn't have any support. If you wanna supply some info you're basing this on, I'd love to read it.

My conclusions are based off of years of reading news reports and forums posts/documents about agency qualifications.

I can't compile several years of data into a single post. However I do have a certain reputation here, and you've been here long enough to know it. I don't post BS, period. Even if I don't have immediate sources to very what I'm saying.

Perhaps you need to take a step back and look at the details, I think your current profession is tinting your view on the subject regarding your peers/fellow officers.

Getting shot ain't right OR safe. It has nothing to do with bravery, 'cuz if you try to get off a shot and fail, you're not helping ANYONE.

Hmm, gunman has to focus on one target which gives more time for other people to escape unharmed.

Seems like the fail is with your post.

[F34R]

My conclusions are based off of years of reading news reports and forums posts/documents about agency qualifications.

I can't compile several years of data into a single post. However I do have a certain reputation here, and you've been here long enough to know it. I don't post BS, period. Even if I don't have immediate sources to very what I'm saying.

Perhaps you need to take a step back and look at the details, I think your current profession is tinting your view on the subject regarding your peers/fellow officers.



Hmm, gunman has to focus on one target which gives more time for other people to escape unharmed.

Seems like the fail is with your post.

It's not tinting my view at all. I don't generalize a category of people based on sources that utilize a fraction of that profession.

[MATRIX 2]

It's not tinting my view at all. I don't generalize a category of people based on sources that utilize a fraction of that profession.

Haha, a fraction. I've seen data and reports from/on LEA's across the nation. Including some rather prestigious agencies. Its and unfortunate truth, but a significant amount of LEO's do not know how to handle their weapons with the proficiency that is necessary for them to properly do their job and that the public believes them capable of (cue the people that say only cops should have guns since they are "properly trained to handle them").

If you want to explore this topic further, perhaps you should post the requirements from your agency.

And just to entertain your optimism:

http://colorlines.com/archives/2010/...by_the_da.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Be...oting_incident

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/05/ny...ted=all&src=pm

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...lapd-says.html

http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=37&pt=7&ch=217&rl=21

http://www.policemag.com/blog/firear...otivation.aspx

[F34R]

I read all of that, and none of it makes it worthy to say that the average cops are idiots. Sorry. Do some cops need better training? Yes. Do some cops qualify to be called idiots? Sure. Coming out with a generalization that average cops are idiots is a gross misrepresentation. Yes, people need more training, better skills, etc., but those brief stories of officers supposedly doing the idiot things aren't qualified at all to generalize an entire "group" of cops that you've decided to name "average".

[MATRIX 2]

I read all of that, and none of it makes it worthy to say that the average cops are idiots. Sorry. Do some cops need better training? Yes. Do some cops qualify to be called idiots? Sure. Coming out with a generalization that average cops are idiots is a gross misrepresentation. Yes, people need more training, better skills, etc., but those brief stories of officers supposedly doing the idiot things aren't qualified at all to generalize an entire "group" of cops that you've decided to name "average".

And all that is a very tiny subset of all the information I'm referring to. If you think I'm wrong, put up something that says otherwise. A good start would be your own agencies qualification standards.

Sorry but you can't say my statements are generalizations when you come back with a generalization of your own saying most cops are properly proficient/just fine and its just a small subset that need improvement who are in stories like the ones I posted. You want to make a counterclaim or disprove mine you need to have something of substance.

To most LEO's a gun is just another tool of their profession. However it would be nice to see it treated with the attention it deserves due to its lethal nature and large range.

And its not just guns either (though they are one of the most important issues for LEO's). I'd love to see how LEO's from across the nation perform on the Michigan State Police driving test.

Hell there aren't even uniform hiring standards. Some agencies require a 4 year bachelors degree, others a 2 year associates degree, and some are fine with a HS diploma.

[F34R]

I'm sorry, you were saying? Like I said, it's a generalization, period. Reports are usually done like this when officers are being frowned upon, etc., but aren't very accurate towards "average" officers granting that moniker. I've not said a single thing that would be considered a generalization.

Let's hear something, read those reports and articles you posted, and tell me what you think would make these guys not idiots? What outcome would make these guys better? That they shot less bullets? That they didn't shoot at all? I'm interested in hearing how your arm chair policing would benefit the public.

The educational hiring standards you mention is hilarious to say the least.

[MATRIX 2]

I'm sorry, you were saying? Like I said, it's a generalization, period. Reports are usually done like this when officers are being frowned upon, etc., but aren't very accurate towards "average" officers granting that moniker. I've not said a single thing that would be considered a generalization.

Let's hear something, read those reports and articles you posted, and tell me what you think would make these guys not idiots? What outcome would make these guys better? That they shot less bullets? That they didn't shoot at all? I'm interested in hearing how your arm chair policing would benefit the public.

The educational hiring standards you mention is hilarious to say the least.

Shots on target. I don't care if they unloaded 1000 rounds into 1 guy as long as they all hit him.

And if the educations standards are so funny then why bother with them at all in regards to becoming a LEO. There has to be a reason for requiring an associates or bachelors degree at various agencies.

And like I said I can't post all the information I've seen on this subject. I posted some news reports, which wile lacking in their ability to convince, are the best i can do.

What i can't post is discussion by LEO's on various forums that I've read talking about how their own agencies standards suck and need to be improved.

[F34R]

Shots on target. I don't care if they unloaded 1000 rounds into 1 guy as long as they all hit him.

And if the educations standards are so funny then why bother with them at all in regards to becoming a LEO. There has to be a reason for requiring an associates or bachelors degree at various agencies.

And like I said I can't post all the information I've seen on this subject. I posted some news reports, which wile lacking in their ability to convince, are the best i can do.

What i can't post is discussion by LEO's on various forums that I've read talking about how their own agencies standards suck and need to be improved.

That's probably the one thing that couldn't be considered a generalization for EVERY agency in the land lol.

The reason I said the edu statement was hilarious because off some criteria here in SCCJA. A high school diploma, GED, or equivalent is required for the academy, but some agencies do require a 2/4yr degree just to be considered. It reminded me of my academy days back in 2000. This one guy from SLED, with his masters degree, didn't join anyone for study groups, etc., and left the Friday of our first test in week #2. It was a 100 question legal exam. I digress. I think we've moved on enough for this "debate". I appreciate your responses regardless of whether I agreed with them or not.

[-Kwesnoth-]

Getting shot ain't right OR safe. It has nothing to do with bravery, 'cuz if you try to get off a shot and fail, you're not helping ANYONE.

Are you serious? I didn't say getting shot was right, but it is right to at least attempt to do something.

And you're saying that just sitting on your ass and watching the guy kill people is a good way to help out?

[Shibby]

Okay so you have read up on qualification standards. Those standards don't give you any information about the "average" officer, they just give you the minimum requirements. It's not information about how the officers actually perform. With as many people that apply for the job, especially in a bigger city, how often do you think the officer who had poor, but satisfactory performance gets the job?

And posting a few isolated incidents doesn't really help the case.