Looking for some opinions on handguns

[ps3freak18]

I'm in the market for a handgun to buy. I've looked all around the net and have found some good options. Mostly I'm looking for a 9mm, that will be used for self defense and for the range. Concealed carry isn't really a major concern atm so size isn't really an issue. I've shot my buddies Sig Sauer 2022 Pro 9mm a couple times at the range. I like the gun pretty well but I want to keep my options open. So what would you suggest for a 9mm in $400 and under range. Possibly $450 but no more. One I also was intrigued by was the S&W SD9 VE. It has a lower price than most handguns and have read great things about it as well. I know everyone says it's all a matter of what you like in feel. I'm going to use some of these suggestions to rent a few at the range.

Also what are your opinions between DA, SA, and Striker?

[claud3]

They kill people and they are a safe thingy

[Vulgotha]

This is just my opinion, but I dislike DA. Go SA every time if you are able, just my two cents.

As for $450 range.. I cannot recommend strongly enough that you consider an M&P9 by S&W.

Here it is at Budsgunshop (strongly recommend you buy from them) right smack dab in the middle of your price range:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/37124


Anything cheaper than that and I would start to become gravely dubious. Being totally honest, don't expect a quality handgun for less than 450-500 USD. IF you're going to go cheaper but you still want something that is dead reliable and accurate enough, I'd recommend getting a Makarov in 9x18 milsurp.

[ps3freak18]

Thanks and honestly I wasn't really looking at too many under 400. The Sig my buddy has is considered to be the best gun for $400 dollars by miles. It is dead even with the Glock on durability and accuracy also it is 100-150 cheaper for a comparable model. I honestly love the look, know that doesn't mean much, CZ 75B. That gun looks fucking sweet! I'm also looking to get one that has the two tone finish with the stainless slide. I just love the look. I also hear that the all metal frame is something that takes some getting used to but once you've used it you will never go to the polymer frame. I personally like the look of the all metal but heard they can be a bit heavy.

What brands would you say are in your top 5 as far as pistols go?

[Vulgotha]

Again, if you're in the market for a gun this price range I would recommend Glock or the M&P. Some people enjoy the XD's and Steyrs too.

As far as "top handguns", well that's kind of a tough pick. Sig, Glock, Smith&Wessen, Springfield, Colt.. Those all come to mind immediately.

Sig specializes in fullmetal hand guns, so play to their strength if you're considering their weapons. But if you want polymer go with Glock or S&W. You can't go wrong with either of them, though I prefer the S&W over the Glock.

[ps3freak18]

Again, if you're in the market for a gun this price range I would recommend Glock or the M&P. Some people enjoy the XD's and Steyrs too.

As far as "top handguns", well that's kind of a tough pick. Sig, Glock, Smith&Wessen, Springfield, Colt.. Those all come to mind immediately.

Sig specializes in fullmetal hand guns, so play to their strength if you're considering their weapons. But if you want polymer go with Glock or S&W. You can't go wrong with either of them, though I prefer the S&W over the Glock.

Thanks man! Greatly appreciated.

[MATRIX 2]

Something else to consider:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ew-guest-post/

[-Kwesnoth-]

Ewww Vulgotha. Glocks are gross, nothing wrong with them, just never much liked em.

Sigs are nice, I usually end up with Sigs, but sometimes get a Smith & Weston, or Colt.

As for handguns, I usually end up with a 1911 or M9, but pretty sure those range higher then $400.

[MATRIX 2]

Ewww Vulgotha. Glocks are gross, nothing wrong with them, just never much liked em.

Sigs are nice, I usually end up with Sigs, but sometimes get a Smith & Weston, or Colt.

As for handguns, I usually end up with a 1911 or M9, but pretty sure those range higher then $400.

RIA's 1911's start around $400. And trade in 92's are also round $300-400.

[Vulgotha]

RIA's 1911's start around $400. And trade in 92's are also round $300-400.

Man, don't get me wrong I understand that even a 'base model' 1911 is a good gun. But why not go quality? For the price you cannot beat the SIG TACOPS. Springfield cannot offer a competing 1911 that justifies its cost compared to the SIG, and that kind of leaves you with Kimber.

I find that people here in the US look down their noses at 1911's that aren't from an "Amurrican" company. Ergo the uber competitive pricing of the SIG, they're trying to get some market penetration.

My buddy has a Rock Island 1911, and he loves it. That's his "beater gun" that he shoots for fun. But he and I buy opted for the SIG model as our quality "go to war\carry" gun.

I'm not putting down RIA or anything, don't get me wrong.


@Kwes

I'm not the biggest fan of Glocks but I definitely know they're some of the best pistols around. I'm annoyed by the grip angle and I think that they're not very competitive feature wise (against the M&P) for the price...

Still, a top class gun.

[MATRIX 2]

Man, don't get me wrong I understand that even a 'base model' 1911 is a good gun. But why not go quality? For the price you cannot beat the SIG TACOPS. Springfield cannot offer a competing 1911 that justifies its cost compared to the SIG, and that kind of leaves you with Kimber.

I find that people here in the US look down their noses at 1911's that aren't from an "Amurrican" company. Ergo the uber competitive pricing of the SIG, they're trying to get some market penetration.

My buddy has a Rock Island 1911, and he loves it. That's his "beater gun" that he shoots for fun. But he and I buy opted for the SIG model as our quality "go to war\carry" gun.

I'm not putting down RIA or anything, don't get me wrong.


@Kwes

I'm not the biggest fan of Glocks but I definitely know they're some of the best pistols around. I'm annoyed by the grip angle and I think that they're not very competitive feature wise (against the M&P) for the price...

Still, a top class gun.

You are usually on the correct side with your posts, but you are dead wrong on this one.

#1 RIA's are basic. But they do run. That's more than can be said than 1911's from most of the big name manufacturers. They also compete with polymer guns on price, which is very important.

If there are 2 complaints I've heard about 1911's its cost and having to fuck around to get the gun to run properly and keep it running.

#2 I don't know where you came up with the notion that SA can't compete, because it is completely false. The worst thing people have on SA 1911's is that they are partly made in Brazil.

Barring an Ed Brown (or a few other custom/semi custom 1911's) SA is #1 for the 1911.

They have all the bases covered from the low end to the high end.

And they make at least 3 guns (price and quality) that compete with your SIG: TRP, Trophy Match, and Range Officer (the operator is an arguable 4th).

Hell if you did your research properly you would be hard pressed to buy anything but a Springfield 1911 (barring RIA's at the entry level and the semi custom guns at the high end).

People look down on Sig 1911's because they have external extractors and are rather gimmicky. They don't perform like the other 1911's do and are jacked up price for what they offer.

If you wanted something different from the norm you could have gone with a Smith and Wesson, STI, Dan Wesson or Ruger 1911. All are better than what SIG offers.

Not to mention its hard to support a company whose quality has gone to shit making what happened with the Gen4 Glocks look like a non issue.

I've been browsing 1911 forums for nearly 5 years and nobody has anything good to say about SIG 1911's. I'd love to see how you came to the conclusion that they offer the best all around 1911.

And for the record I'd rather carry the RIA as my go to war/carry gun over the SIG 1911 every time.

Assuming I'd take a 1911 of course. But at this point in time its hard to not pick a HK45 / P30 (Or USP Tactical for old times sake)

You said it yourself, SIG is known for some of its guns, non of which are its 1911's. And its been selling them for some time, yet S&W has had more success with their 1911's in a shorter period of time (and until recently they were inexpensive either).

And apparently the SIG is a Series 80 pistol which makes it even worse.

On one final note, if SIG 1911's were so much better than the rest, why is it LEO's/the us military have chosen Springfield, Colt and Kimber 1911's for duty, but not SIG 1911's?

[Vulgotha]

Lol dude you are so far off the mark here. Actually go and research the TACOPS Sig 1911. I'm not talking about any of their other lines man, do your homework on this particular model.

For the price, Springfields cannot compete with the TACOPS.

4x 8 round Checkmate mags, Novak night sites, steel checkering on the front and back, skeletonized hammer and trigger, magwell, rubber bumpers, ErgoXT grips, shortened ambi safety, extended mag release, slightly modified beavertail, SIG Nitride finish..

All this for 940-975. This is the same price as the Springfield Loaded model and it gets destroyed by the SIG. No competition. The TACOPS compared directly to the Operator or TRP, and for several hundred less you're left asking "why is it so much cheaper?" the answer? You're just paying for the springfield brand and the limited quantity of Operators and TRP's they produce each year.

This isn't to say that springfields aren't amazing 1911's, just that you get far more out of the TACOPS dollar for dollar than you do the Springfield.

In no way is this at all gimmicky. Go look at the reviews- overwhelmingly positive from nearly everybody.

The only point you have which stands is the fact that it uses an external extractor, and quite frankly its a pretty insubstantial charge to levy against it. Plenty of manufacturers use external extractors and I've not seen anything which illustrates to me that it is problematic, in particular in the Sig TACOPS.

And if you've been "Allegedly browsing 1911 forums for 5 years" and "nobody has anything good to say about SIG 1911's" you're either grossly exaggerating or inattentive. I'm not talking about their prior 1911's here man, I'm talking about the TACOPS and in particular this pistol evolved from the Sig 1911 Blackwater model.

Do yourself a favor and google reviews and thread posts about the TACOPS. You'll find that you're just simply wrong on all accounts here.


Apart from the adoption of SIG 1911's by PMC's (Blackwater), your question as to why their TACOP model hasn't been adopted by the military, to me, seems kind of obvious: It's a new model. In addition, Springfield and Colt are US companies and have an extremely long history of military contracts with our government (like the M4's etc etc).

It has absolutely zero to do with the quality of this particular firearm.

Again, this isn't saying that the Springfields, Colts or RIA are bad. Far from it. But right now for the price you'd be hard pressed to formulate a reasonable argument against the TACOPS. The issue with the Colts and Springfields is not their quality, its simply due to the fact that they are marked up for: namebrand, low quantities.

There is a brand loyalty thing at play here and it is skewing perspectives. Nevermind the fact that they're both US companies and we Americans have traditionally been slightly dubious and xenophobic when it comes to foreign manufacturers creating US weapons. Especially something as "traditionally American" as the 1911 pistol.

As for SIG quality nose diving- I was in your boat for a long time too. Very dubious of Sig's latest endeavors.. But a LEO buddy of mine, and the one who helped me research the TACOPS, stated that much of this had to do with an over zealous attempt to expand their product lines. They tried to pump out a bunch of new products in a short period of time and their QC suffered for it.

But by all indications this is a non issue for their pistols in the present.

I painstakingly researched pistols to purchase, in particular 1911's and I came to the conclusion that the SIG was one of the best deals on the market bar none.

I'll post some reviews.


http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/07/...sig_sauer.html

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=340790

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=329992

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=303363

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=138055

http://tacticalgunreview.com/blog/20...s-1911-review/

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329992
http://wethearmed.com/handguns/i-am-...ield-operator/

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317800


etc etc.

Basically it holds its own with the Colts and Springfields in a toe to toe match up. Same with Kimbers.

[Completely Average]

Lol dude you are so far off the mark here. Actually go and research the TACOPS Sig 1911. I'm not talking about any of their other lines man, do your homework on this particular model.

For the price, Springfields cannot compete with the TACOPS.

The key words being "for the price".

The other side of that statement is "you get what you pay for".

Between the two, I would go ahead and spend the extra money and get the Springfiled MC Operator over the Sig Tac Ops. While the Tac Ops may be a better "for the price" handgun, the MC Operator is quite simply the better gun. Run 5,000 rounds through both, and you'll see the difference in quality and craftsmanship.

[Vulgotha]

I have my doubts. The MSRP on the TACOPS and Operator are very close- within 75$. The disparity in actual price (like on Buds, etc) is due to the limited release of the Operator + ardent nationalism.

I think the TACOPS holds up pretty well against the Operator, and it is the gun which it should be compared to.

Another thread where opinions between the two 1911's (TACOPS included) are split. Positives all around for the different models:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...=375023&page=2

[MATRIX 2]

Lol dude you are so far off the mark here. Actually go and research the TACOPS Sig 1911. I'm not talking about any of their other lines man, do your homework on this particular model.

For the price, Springfields cannot compete with the TACOPS.

4x 8 round Checkmate mags, Novak night sites, steel checkering on the front and back, skeletonized hammer and trigger, ErgoXT grips, shortened ambi safety, extended mag release, slightly modified beavertail, SIG Nitride finish..

All this for 940-975. This is the same price as the Springfield Loaded model and it gets destroyed by the SIG. No competition. The TACOPS compared directly to the Operator or TRP, and for several hundred less you're left asking "why is it so much cheaper?" the answer? You're just paying for the springfield brand and the limited quantity of Operators and TRP's they produce each year.

This isn't to say that springfields aren't amazing 1911's, just that you get far more out of the TACOPS dollar for dollar than you do the Springfield.

In no way is this at all gimmicky. Go look at the reviews- overwhelmingly positive from nearly everybody.

The only point you have which stands is the fact that it uses an external extractor, and quite frankly its a pretty insubstantial charge to levy against it. Plenty of manufacturers use external extractors and I've not seen anything which illustrates to me that it is problematic, in particular in the Sig TACOPS.

And if you've been "Allegedly browsing 1911 forums for 5 years" and "nobody has anything good to say about SIG 1911's" you're either grossly exaggerating or inattentive. I'm not talking about their prior 1911's here man, I'm talking about the TACOPS and in particular this pistol evolved from the Sig 1911 Blackwater model.

Do yourself a favor and google reviews and thread posts about the TACOPS. You'll find that you're just simply wrong on all accounts here.


Apart from the adoption of SIG 1911's by PMC's (Blackwater), your question as to why their TACOP model hasn't been adopted by the military, to me, seems kind of obvious: It's a new model. In addition, Springfield and Colt are US companies and have an extremely long history of military contracts with our government (like the M4's etc etc).

It has absolutely zero to do with the quality of this particular firearm.

Again, this isn't saying that the Springfields, Colts or RIA are bad. Far from it. But right now for the price you'd be hard pressed to formulate a reasonable argument against the TACOPS. The issue with the Colts and Springfields is not their quality, its simply due to the fact that they are marked up for one reason: namebrand.

There is a brand loyalty thing at play here and it is skewing perspectives. Nevermind the fact that they're both US companies and we Americans have traditionally been slightly dubious and xenophobic when it comes to foreign manufacturers creating US weapons. Especially something as "traditionally American" as the 1911 pistol.

I'll give you 3 1911's that meet or exceed the value given by tour tacops.

In no particular order:

Ruger SR 1911:

http://www.ruger.com/products/sr1911/models.html

MSRP $799, can be had for as low as $600. Yeah its more basic than the tacops, but this is the best value 1911 on the market today.

S&W E series 1911's:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...2_757751_image

Pricing varies a bit dpending on the specific gun, but the railed model that compares closest to the tacops is around $1000.

Springfield Range Officer:

http://www.springfield-armory.com/ar...hp?version=154



Typically goes for around $750.

And don't forget with S&W and Springfield you also get excellent customer service, good luck getting anything similar with SIG Sauer.

But back to your list of goodies:

4x 8 round Checkmate mags, Novak night sites, steel checkering on the front and back, skeletonized hammer and trigger, ErgoXT grips, shortened ambi safety, extended mag release, slightly modified beavertail, SIG Nitride finish

4 mags is nice, but if they aren't ChipMcormick, Tripp Cobra, or Mecgar mags I don't really care since most other 1911 mags don't run reliably enough.

Novak sights aren't exactly rare anymore on production guns:

Checkering isn't much of a feature since people have different preferences in that area.

Skeleton Hammer/trigger: pretty much the default on any non base 1911

ambi saftey, mag release, bevertail? Meh common all around on non base guns.

Nitride finish: I doubt its much better than the other finishes used on competitors 1911's.

I'll give you the rail, but that's it. Even then, S&W can put up a railed 1911 at the same price point.

The biggest problem with your line of thinking, is that while the Sig may offer many features for its price, you actually have to want those features. With 1911's its either best to take a minimalistic approach (like with the Ruger 1911 and Springfield Range Officer) or go all out (Like with the TRP and the high end custom/semi custom guns).

The sig falls somewhere in the middle and that isn't good in the 1911 world.

In the end if you are left with the Sig and S&W 1911's as direct competitors. I'd take the S&W because I want that warranty and I prefer supporting companies that put out quality products and stands by them. Perhaps if Sig put in the attention to detail they currently do with their 1911's into the rest of their lineup, then they may go up in my eyes. But I can't willingly support a company that has done what SIG did untill they properly address and correct the issue.

We have been screwed over by gun companies for too long, the only way they will listen is by voting with your wallet. And you just ensured that SIG will continue running with the status quo attitude for a while longer.

[Vulgotha]

Man this is practically a holy war. You're really tearing me up with this one Matrix lol.


Sig has well renowned customer service, for starters. I also appreciate that it doesn't use a full length guide rod and that unlike many of its competitors it isn't mostly manufactured in south america lol.

Alot of the cheaper pistols from SA (mid tier 1911's) aren't even fully made here man.

[MATRIX 2]

Man this is practically a holy war. You're really tearing me up with this one Matrix lol.


Sig has well renowned customer service, for starters. I also appreciate that it doesn't use a full length guide rod and that unlike many of its competitors it isn't mostly manufactured in south america lol.

Alot of the cheaper pistols from SA (mid tier 1911's) aren't even fully made here man.

I already stated that the frames are made in Brazil. But in the end why does the origin of a gun/components matter? I only care about the finished product.

And you have to be joking about the CS part. It is indisputable that S&W and SA are at the top, and that Sig is nowhere near them.

[Vulgotha]

I already stated that the frames are made in Brazil. But in the end why does the origin of a gun/components matter? I only care about the finished product.

And you have to be joking about the CS part. It is indisputable that S&W and SA are at the top, and that Sig is nowhere near them.

Basically man, I think you're just sour at SIG in general. No matter what I say, what reviews or positive threads I send your way you're going to hate on the TACOPS because SIG made it.

I think you'd be whistling a different tune if it were made by SA, Colt or Ruger- and it were exactly as it is now. 1:1.


Also, the S&W E series utilizes an external extractor.

[MilesVeritatis]

You know, I'm reading this argument, and every post by Matrix is starting to sound like "EVERY BRAND I DON'T LIKE IS BAD, AND THEY SHOULD FEEL BAD. AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD FOR LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE."

There are many in the firearms community who remember Sig's repeated goofups as they expanded their business in recent years. (There are also apparently people who are still PO'd at Ruger for the late Bill Ruger's actions two decades ago). They also seem to have learned from some of their mistakes, particularly with their 1911's. They're no longer using Caspian frames and slides (from what I understand) and are producing the majority of their components in house, similar to their P-series pistols. They also seem to be staying away from MIM components.

My agency issues Glock 21's as duty weapons (love 'em, btw, also love my model 30 I carry off duty), but our CID unit has some leeway on what they can carry, most opt to purchase their own 1911's. There are a few Kimbers, a couple of Springfields, a couple of Sigs, and a Rock Island. As far as reliability goes, the only ones I've seen jam on the range were the Kimbers. As far as accuracy, the Sigs and Springfields both seem to be the most consistently accurate with our practice ammo (Winchester white box 230 grain FMJ) and duty ammo (Winchester Ranger T-series 230 grain +P). I've shot several 1911's in my time, the first being an MC Operator, which is still one of my favorites, but my favorite 1911's I've ever handled are the two Sigs I've gotten to shoot at work. They're tight fit enough to be dead accurate, but slick enough to be reliable. Both operators have reported never having a malfunction with either, with the exception of one when he got a rock in the ejection port running a combat course. He cleared it and the gun continued to run 100%. As for continued reliability, I have no idea the round count they've put through them, but since they use them on duty, they get a fair amount of hard use through training and practice.

From what I've seen and from my own experience, Springfield and Sig are my top two choices for a 1911. I own a Rock Island, which I like a lot, but it's not in the same class. I'm not much of a fan of Kimber, something about the factory trigger pull turns me off, plus they're just way too tight, IMO. Your mileage may vary. Colt just doesn't do it for me either, but that's just a preference thing. All the Colt's I've handled are "meh." Again, YMMV.

[MATRIX 2]

Basically man, I think you're just sour at SIG in general. No matter what I say, what reviews or positive threads I send your way you're going to hate on the TACOPS because SIG made it.

I think you'd be whistling a different tune if it were made by SA, Colt or Ruger- and it were exactly as it is now. 1:1.

I think SIG should stick to what it does best (220/226 and derivatives). And for the record, I don't really care for colt and really don't like Ruger (yet I admit the value with their 1911).

If I want a bastardized 1911, I'll go to S&W.

But I cannot in good faith support a company that has done what SIG has. Not matter the value/quality of a certain gun they manufacture if they don't give a damn about the rest.

Its so big its even affecting govt contracts:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5581

[MilesVeritatis]

So the P250 is how you're measuring Sig's 1911's? Would you also determine the quality of a restaurant's foods by sampling their garbage bin?

[MATRIX 2]

So the P250 is how you're measuring Sig's 1911's? Would you also determine the quality of a restaurant's foods by sampling their garbage bin?

If a company is willing to release a product that bad, I think it is a good indicator of what the company has become and what to expect from them in the future.

Also failing 3 different trials is a bad thing, no matter how you try and spin it.

[Vulgotha]

By that line of reasoning you should stay the hell away from S&W given their Sigma series pistols.

I mean really, if you scrutinize any manufacturer you're going to find abominations and huge mistakes.

Or how about the Glock's that blew up when chambering certain .40 rounds?

[MilesVeritatis]

You're comparing apples to oranges... Sig has essentially made two forays into the polymer framed pistol market, the P250 and the SP2022. One was god-awful, the other was less than stellar. What it tells me is that Sig needs to stay in their comfort zone and away from polymer frames, not "everything they do is bad. and they should feel bad."

Other companies' pistols have failed military trials as well... notably offerings from S&W, Ruger, and Colt at various points in their lifespans. What this boils down to is that you don't like Sig, so you think no one should like them.

[MATRIX 2]

By that line of reasoning you should stay the hell away from S&W given their Sigma series pistols.

I mean really, if you scrutinize any manufacturer you're going to find abominations and huge mistakes.

Or how about the Glock's that blew up when chambering certain .40 rounds?

The sigma was a budget pistol, so what would you expect. Sig Pushed the P250 and the next great thing at the forefront of their lineup.

As for the glock issues, its basically a wait and see approach. Like what people did with the Gen4 issues.

The problem is while S&W and Glock were able to move on, it doesn't seem like that is the case for SIG. I'm still seeing lots of posts about problems with recently manufactured SIG pistols (across the board, not just the 250).

Until it seems they have thoroughly addressed the QC issue, I have no reason to let off.

You're comparing apples to oranges... Sig has essentially made two forays into the polymer framed pistol market, the P250 and the SP2022. One was god-awful, the other was less than stellar. What it tells me is that Sig needs to stay in their comfort zone and away from polymer frames, not "everything they do is bad. and they should feel bad."

""

Like I said above, the issues are not exclusive to their newer polymer designs.