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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Higher resolution gets rid of jaggies too.
    1080p requires less AA than 720p to look smooth.

    I have always sacrificed jaggies for FPS, very few games I run with 4x or more AA, its usually only Source engine games or old games that new hardware runs easily.
    true, but what if the AA requires no additional processing power? than 720p with AA will be much better choice than rendering at 1080p wouldn't it?

    Such is the case with fxaa and mlaa. They don't require much computing power as MSAA or SSAA does. So devs use these post process AA to save resources

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    Sony debuts 4k television today. Opening door for PS$ 4k resolution rumors.

    Sony Debuts 84 inch 4k tv today. This falls in line with rumors of a super resolution PS4 coming out within the next years or so. The tv will use an HDMI cable and will be used with 4k devices and current 3d bluray players and Super HD devices. In the demo the gentlemen showing the tv said there will devices on the horizon that will be compatible with this tv. PS4 is real!

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    Sony debuts 4k television today. Opening door for PS4 4k resolution rumors.

    Quote Originally Posted by imINxile View Post
    Offer a higher res...welcomed. Demand it...never happen. Obvious is obvious.
    Sony Debuts 84 inch 4k tv today. This falls in line with rumors of a super resolution PS4 coming out within the next years or so. The tv will use an HDMI cable and will be used with 4k devices and current 3d bluray players and Super HD devices. In the demo the gentlemen showing the tv said there will devices on the horizon that will be compatible with this tv. PS4 is real!

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    Thumbs up Ps4&720 will have native 1080p

    Quote Originally Posted by Syphon_Filter View Post
    Me and my friend were talking yesterday and discussed about the PS4 resolution. If PS4 will have resolution beyond 1080p and our current TVS support only 1080p. Then Sony or other manufacturers most bring out a TV that is capable of supporting whatever PS4 resolution will have. And I think personally that no one will care much about getting a new TV for PS4. Due to the price and as it is with PS3. Not all PS3 users have an HD TV until now, and Iam of them to say the truth. I haven't had the money to get a good an HD LED TV until last year when I have worked and bought a Samsung LED TV which I got it 4 or 5 years after the PS3 was released. What do you guys think? Just wondering guys as I think that is very important to us to know a little about.
    With the latest news on up coming displays the resolutions available are double to quadruple 1080p in fact there were roumers of 4k tv wich translates to over 4000p. However with most HDTV's displaying up to 1080p it seems pointless to provide a console with a higher native resolution. We are seeing screen displays with very high PPI pixels per inch like with the latest appl or apple products however it would be a gamble unless super hi res displays were widely available by next year. Bottom line is that the technology is out there now it is a matter of time and investment, if Microsoft and Sony are willing to have a range of resolutions from 480i right up the scale to the newest screen technology they have to consider the higher quality in graphics to meet the high end screens. It would be ultra realistic having a large screen retina type display playing some of today's games but with the next gen consoles it would open up a new world of detail and clarity like we've never seen, I hope that ps4 and Xbox 720 do decide to include the higher end resolution but it will have to coenside with next gen tvs. Or at the very least meet the hi resolution monitors out now then update the consoles software later on to meet new screen specs including 3D.

  5. #105
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    I see it this way.... Before HD took over (yes it wasn't always the norm) we had sd tv's. Something gotta push us into the next stage, just as there were pushing, proving, and what not to get us into the HD era we're in now. I do suppose the actual question we should throw up in opposition now would have to be 'is it too soon'. Personally I'm one of those progressive types that welcomes new tech with open arms, but for many people who have JUST joined the party they will feel otherwise.

    Sent from my TC970 (Wi-Fi) using Tapatalk 2


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    Quote Originally Posted by D3seeker View Post
    I see it this way.... Before HD took over (yes it wasn't always the norm) we had sd tv's. Something gotta push us into the next stage, just as there were pushing, proving, and what not to get us into the HD era we're in now. I do suppose the actual question we should throw up in opposition now would have to be 'is it too soon'. Personally I'm one of those progressive types that welcomes new tech with open arms, but for many people who have JUST joined the party they will feel otherwise.

    Sent from my TC970 (Wi-Fi) using Tapatalk 2
    I agree. Look at what Apple does. No body REQUIRED Apple to introduce retina display into the market, but they did and everyone followed with higher resolution displays. The new Macbook pro and Ipad 3 still have the highest resolution in consumer products and people line up for those devices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier 95B View Post
    PC's have been running at higher than 1080p and 60fps for years. I see no reason why a console couldn't match even the older PC's of the past few years. Seems like a no brainer to me. And just because you have only have a 1080p TV doesn't mean others might not want to upgrade to a higher res. The game will still work on the old 1080p TV's.
    PCs running at whatever resolution at whatever fps is meaningless because they can throw something big at the PC market while only a fraction of the % will truly utilize it (with all details to the max).

  8. #108
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    Fun fact for everyone:

    Agni's Philosophy ran @ 720p

    So my question to you is:
    Will you be okay if devs limit the resolution to 720p if we get that level of visual fidelity?
    I'm all for it since Agni's Philosophy is by far the best tech demo for next gen yet

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  10. #109
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    .. future will be interesting in many ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    Fun fact for everyone:

    Agni's Philosophy ran @ 720p

    So my question to you is:
    Will you be okay if devs limit the resolution to 720p if we get that level of visual fidelity?
    I'm all for it since Agni's Philosophy is by far the best tech demo for next gen yet
    Resolution is interesting question as already we do not render games with fixed resolution.
    Many fillrate heavy effects are already rendered to low resolution render target and many games use variable sized main resolution as well.

    Next generation will have hugely more programmable hardware allowing even more varied tricks to decouple rendering from resolution.
    IE.
    Decoupled Deferred Shading, shading frequency can vary within image decoupled from resolution.

    http://cg.ibds.kit.edu/ShadingReuse.php#p2012

    Variable resolution for certain effect where some parts of image are redefined for more resolution.
    This was used in Unreal Engine 4 GI technique.
    http://advances.realtimerendering.co...mo%2016x9.pptx

    Also current trend on post processing AA gives nice additional benefit on intelligent scaling to target resolution.
    IE. FXAA4.

    When we search image for edges for post AA (think MLAA) we can use that knowledge to scale the image into whatever resolution we want while preserving sharp edges. (This will certainly improve when edge detection will handle sub-pixel features better.)

    With these and future techniques we will most likely see games render similar amount of pixel shading with different output resolutions to 720p, 1080p and 4k, while preserving pixel perfect edges for objects and in some cases for surfaces as well.

    Then there is a separate case of framerate and re-projection..
    http://advances.realtimerendering.co...raph2012).pptx
    Last edited by jlippone; 10-02-2012 at 08:49.
    -------
    Couple of nice blog posts about OpenGL.
    The Truth on OpenGL Driver Quality
    Things that drive me nuts about OpenGL

  11. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlippone View Post
    Resolution is interesting question as already we do not render games with fixed resolution.
    Many fillrate heavy effects are already rendered to low resolution render target and many games use variable sized main resolution as well.

    Next generation will have hugely more programmable hardware allowing even more varied tricks to decouple rendering from resolution.
    IE.
    Decoupled Deferred Shading, shading frequency can vary within image decoupled from resolution.

    http://cg.ibds.kit.edu/ShadingReuse.php#p2012

    Variable resolution for certain effect where some parts of image are redefined for more resolution.
    This was used in Unreal Engine 4 GI technique.
    http://advances.realtimerendering.co...mo%2016x9.pptx

    Also current trend on post processing AA gives nice additional benefit on intelligent scaling to target resolution.
    IE. FXAA4.

    When we search image for edges for post AA (think MLAA) we can use that knowledge to scale the image into whatever resolution we want while preserving sharp edges. (This will certainly improve when edge detection will handle sub-pixel features better.)

    With these and future techniques we will most likely see games render similar amount of pixel shading with different output resolutions to 720p, 1080p and 4k, while preserving pixel perfect edges for objects and in some cases for surfaces as well.

    Then there is a separate case of framerate and re-projection..
    http://advances.realtimerendering.co...raph2012).pptx
    I have no idea what this will do man looooooooooool.


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  12. #111
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    All I hear nowadays "our eyes can't tell the difference between X and Y."

    So if we're getting to the limit of what we can actually see, how can technology continue to advance?
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  13. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ash91 View Post
    All I hear nowadays "our eyes can't tell the difference between X and Y."

    So if we're getting to the limit of what we can actually see, how can technology continue to advance?
    Our eyes produce infinite resolution images so there can be no limit to how high we want the screen pixels to advance. The question becomes whether it is feasible (both technologically and financially) to undertake such projects.

  14. #113
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    4K TV's (projection units) have been around since before HDTV broadcast. The reality is they haven't made it into mainstream and won't make it into mainstream for a long time.

    The market place is extreme high end home theater systems where seating distances vs screen size is a lot more up close. For a given screen size the closer you are the higher the resolution the human eye can detect. The reality is we've moved from a 50" for a typical TV is huge to 50" is average and 60-70" is huge. Personally I've got a 64" 1080p Plasma TV. I sit at ~11.0' away from my TV. For that size of TV I can't notice a difference with anything > 1080p resolution. I had a 56" DLP that was 720p, it was borderline as for that size if I'd see a difference. It would require an ~85" TV for a 4K TV to be worth it from that seating distance.



    Sure if I hit the lottery I might get one. But I'd hazard to guess that < 1% of us will be getting one during the next generation. I also don't believe we'll move to another broadcast standard for at least another decade - OTA will not change (480p/720p/1080i), Cable will not change (480p/720p/1080i/1080p), Sat will not change (480p/720p/1080i/1080p) as they have limited bandwidth even as they start pushing out all the analog (for cable) and lower resolution digital to get some more HD channels in place. And the reality is the Digital Streaming media isn't up to 720p standards today. It's even more over-compressed and crappy than the compressed Digital Cable and Sat feeds. This will improve over time as more and more bandwidth is available via infrastructure build out. This has been on going since streaming video came to be. But we've got probably a decade before we'll see streaming video get to the quality of 1080p that isn't overly compressed and full of artifacts.

    Until we get to a point where society is ready for the next jump in media resolution, you will not see mass market TVs made for that resolution. We spent almost a decade from the first Digital HD broadcast in 1996 to have 20% of US households having HDTVs in 2006. I recall reading polls on both PS3 and X360 back in 2007/2008 timeframe and only 30-40% of the owners even had an HDTV.

    There will always be a development push to work on the next generation of high resolution, but getting it out to mass market will require a source of media to drive it to the masses. If society was willing to go a decade before readily adopting HD as it is today, and a long time to readily adopt HD Video Players and ones eye's can tell the difference with these TVs at sitting distances, what do you think it's going to take society to drive the next generation. No, these aren't going to be sold to the masses for at least another decade, but will remain the toys of the rich and famous as they are today.

    So back to what I feel they need to do in terms of display for this generation. It needs to provide 1080p60 support, with the tools such that dev's can develop everything in Native 1080p resolution w/o the need for scaling/AA, constant frame rates, no tearing, etc. Sure the scaling engine has been good. The AA has been good. But things would be even better if everything was just the native resolution to begin with.

    They need to make sure that their first party Devs are focused on making native resolution 1080p30 at a minimum and 1080p60 preferably, especially for those games supporting 3D, to give 30fps to each eye at a native 1080p. Not saying 3D needs to be on every game, but make sure it's the best on the games that you support it for.



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    My personal opinion is we don't know what leaps we may take in the next 10 years. Something that is outrageous and expensive now may become cheap almost overnight. Something that takes great deal of processing power and technology may be made simple with an advancement. In the most normal sense of a tv screen and video that we think of in today's terms I agree this isn't necessary but I am not surprised by the leaps and how quickly things change and how programers advance so if it can be done cost effectively...add it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davin_g View Post
    My personal opinion is we don't know what leaps we may take in the next 10 years. Something that is outrageous and expensive now may become cheap almost overnight. Something that takes great deal of processing power and technology may be made simple with an advancement. In the most normal sense of a tv screen and video that we think of in today's terms I agree this isn't necessary but I am not surprised by the leaps and how quickly things change and how programers advance so if it can be done cost effectively...add it.
    As an Engineer and someone with a lot of time and observation about how long it takes the market to react and items to be adopted, I feel highly confident in making assessments 10yrs out. Especially when observing the creeping pace of the TV marketplace. Making leaps and being able to do something is not the same as marketplace adoption.

    Good example, we've been talking about Hybrids, EVs, using Fuel Cells since I was in High School in the 80's. We're just now at a point of moderate adoption of Hybrids (3% of cars sold this year), EV's (0.28% adoption of cars sold this year), Fuel Cell's almost non-existent. We've had Hybrid cars on the road for over a decade. And this is with gas prices through the roof for several years.

    While technological change can be fast, the adoption of it, especially on high ticket items is slow. It was one of the briliant things that Sony did this generation by having Blu-Ray media. They knew the adoption of a High Def video player would take a few years at best, but they knew people would buy their game console and if they win that market even though they lose money on PS3 HW sales, that they'd get all that back and more in Royalties for years to come. Did you know we're still at only 26% Blu Ray penetration in US households? It's been sub $100 entry for a good while now.

    If the cost isn't below $100, which you won't see this being there. Don't expect a fast moving adoption of the technology. At the prices of TVs don't expect it to be large enough to entice a manufacture to implement something at a much higher cost of manufacturing if they aren't going to get something in return in the long term. Don't expect anything higher than 1080p60 support, besides it's not going to buy you anything as they are no place near maximizing the quality that can be delivered on 1080p - they just need more processing power to do so.



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    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ427 View Post
    As an Engineer and someone with a lot of time and observation about how long it takes the market to react and items to be adopted, I feel highly confident in making assessments 10yrs out. Especially when observing the creeping pace of the TV marketplace. Making leaps and being able to do something is not the same as marketplace adoption.

    Good example, we've been talking about Hybrids, EVs, using Fuel Cells since I was in High School in the 80's. We're just now at a point of moderate adoption of Hybrids (3% of cars sold this year), EV's (0.28% adoption of cars sold this year), Fuel Cell's almost non-existent. We've had Hybrid cars on the road for over a decade. And this is with gas prices through the roof for several years.

    While technological change can be fast, the adoption of it, especially on high ticket items is slow. It was one of the briliant things that Sony did this generation by having Blu-Ray media. They knew the adoption of a High Def video player would take a few years at best, but they knew people would buy their game console and if they win that market even though they lose money on PS3 HW sales, that they'd get all that back and more in Royalties for years to come. Did you know we're still at only 26% Blu Ray penetration in US households? It's been sub $100 entry for a good while now.

    If the cost isn't below $100, which you won't see this being there. Don't expect a fast moving adoption of the technology. At the prices of TVs don't expect it to be large enough to entice a manufacture to implement something at a much higher cost of manufacturing if they aren't going to get something in return in the long term. Don't expect anything higher than 1080p60 support, besides it's not going to buy you anything as they are no place near maximizing the quality that can be delivered on 1080p - they just need more processing power to do so.
    Oh no doubt the market is slow to adjust. Some things like electric cars people don't even want. Not until the gas prices get so out of hand they can't take it or the cars get the hp will they change. The TV adoption I think is 100% due to the poor economy. No doubt in my mind. Just 5 years ago people would spend hundreds on cell phones and thousands on a computer without blinking. Just put it on my card. Thats why they thought the PS3's price wouldn't be a hinderence before launching. Of course the economy tanked we lost 6 million jobs and those we got back were well less pay and those that kept their jobs a majority have seen raises put on hold or much less than the increase in living costs so people have been much less willing to run up debt or make these extra expendatures. If HD hit in the 90s....trust me it would have taken off like a rocket. I don't know everything about the tech..but I'm will to bet the leaps we make could make these displays useful....perhaps we see a giant crash in the cost of production or whatnot but I'm not about to say never but I do agree with you if all things stay as they are...it won't get adopted. There would have to be some definate shift in production costs or processing power or whatever but I'm not the one to sit here and say it won't happen. These leaps can happen almost over night if a breakthrough happens...I will trust those like you that have a degree in it to tell me otherwise but I still know some things aren't predictable.

    All I do know is Sony always pushes the forefront of technology. Sometimes it doesn't pay off and sometimes it does. I appreciate their products for quality and features and as an early adopter I am usually very pleased by their forward thinking that often have made my purchases seem progressive and before their time. I understand that sometimes their features and advances don't always work but that push for innovation leads to other progress and I appreciate that. And I know by them paving the way...it usually allows other companies to follow suit and bring cost savings to consumers. I look forward to this technology. If they introduce the TVs on a consumer level I will purchase one provided the there is content in these movies we see being shot today in theatres make use of it. I know its an expensive hobby but so is many other things people collect or partake in...just doing my part to move technology along lol.

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    I will say that economy definitely plays a part, but even with DVD coming out in our economic heights of the 90's it didn't take off like a rocket ship. It took about 5yrs for it to begin supplanting the then ubiquitous VHS. It was quicker than would be in this economy, but still years to do. Many people like myself will be out there getting it within the first year, but most will not. The more early adopters there are the quicker they can bring pricing down to production costs + ok margins.

    As far as what Sony drives in terms of Tech. It's items they can make Royalties off of. Beta Max was Sony's and VHS was JVC's Sony lost that battle over pricing and learned a lesson as they would have made more money off of Royalties in the long run. They since tried to do the Mini-Disc and other items to get back in the game. DVD was a moderate success but it was multiple companies sharing this. They went up against Toshiba in the High Def disc war and won, but the real finicial benfits still haven't hit home even several years later. It's not until they become the ubiquitous media playing device in the household that they'll rake in the dough.

    Anyway, that said, there's no royalties to be made by them pushing people to 4K TVs (i.e. they're not making money on 4K TVs except for the 4K TVs that they make, while on BluRay players they make money on BD's that are sold, and on every BD player that is sold including ones made by their competitors.)

    So without a major market in place, and one not likely to grow into place within the lifetime of the device, and no royalties to be gained by encouraging it's adoption, I don't see them supporting it.

    When I start seeing 4K TVs in the $5K range, and upconverting BluRay players in the $500 range (I'm not aware of any existing at all right now - upconversion is done by the TV/Projector) and talk of putting a new disc standard, or potential broadcast at these resolutions to support 4K. Then and only then will I believe that we're within 5yrs of the beginnings of it coming to fruition.

    To date the only speculation I see are on forums such as this, speculating the next gen game systems.



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