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  1. #26
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    @TGO

    Eh, Capcom has had alot of help from the west in making their MTFramework engine. So it's not like that accomplishment is wholly their own. Western engineers played a large part in getting it up and running.

    In general, I think it is an accurate statement that they cannot compete technology wise with the west regarding games. They're just not great at it. The direction hardware has taken in recent years is one that the Japanese were not actively involving themselves in as much.


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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    Well TGO like I've already said to you in other threads on this topic I dont care for Japanese developed games at all but I know you do so we're never going to agree on this topic.
    actually I only quoted you because the reply button doesn't appear when logged off & the login button keeps taking me to the main page lol
    I know you don't like japanese games, you like that Skyrim & Fallout, Gear of War, you was probably a Halflife & Quake fan too, enjoyed the original Deus Ex, etc.

    @Vulgotha
    As I said before, I wouldn't tarnish everyone with the same brush, some of best looking games this gen have been japanese too.
    crystal tools or White engine is a very pretty engine, and MGS4 had a lot on in it for it time & still looks good today, I can't wait to see the Fox Engine.
    but yeah Cryengine 3 is lovely too, but don't that echo the point of the article?
    Last edited by TGO; 08-12-2012 at 22:54.

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
    actually I only quoted you because the reply button doesn't appear when logged off & the login button keeps taking me to the main page lol I know you don't like japanese games, you like that Skyrim & Fallout, Gear of War, you was probably a Halflife & Quake fan too, enjoyed the original Deus Ex, etc.
    Yep youre right. Guilty as charged. lol

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    I like them both, Japanese and Western games but I do agree that the quality of Japanese games has dropped significantly this gen. I have had a lot of fun though with games from the Atelier series, Nier, Tales of series, Lost Odyssey, Valkyria Chronicles, White Knight, Metal Gear and whatnot.







  5. #30
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    Holy crap, I am PSYCHIC! I knew before coming into this 2-page thread that 80% of the comments would be DmC-negative! Someone get me a lottery ticket, STAT!

    The game is looking damn good. Stop being fanboys.


    Shut up and play games

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    I don't know what they were focusing on with this DMC reboot but it just looks terrible to me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    @TGO

    Eh, Capcom has had alot of help from the west in making their MTFramework engine. So it's not like that accomplishment is wholly their own. Western engineers played a large part in getting it up and running.

    In general, I think it is an accurate statement that they cannot compete technology wise with the west regarding games. They're just not great at it. The direction hardware has taken in recent years is one that the Japanese were not actively involving themselves in as much.
    I wouldn't be so keen to argue about their technologies because Agni's Philosiphy is by far the best looking real time demo I have seen and Unreal Engine 4 or even Cryengine 3 have not impressed me that much (the latter has wowed me many times though). Final fantasy XIII is still one of the best looking games to come on consoles. Fox engine is also looking really good but we still haven't seen much.

    What you CAN easily argue is the general quality of their games, which is sadly lacking most of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Equinoqs View Post
    Holy crap, I am PSYCHIC! I knew before coming into this 2-page thread that 80% of the comments would be DmC-negative! Someone get me a lottery ticket, STAT!

    The game is looking damn good. Stop being fanboys.
    Oops lol, well I kinda started da debate with my comment on the first page XD my bad. But if it makes u feel better I still love Kid in Chrono Cross XD.

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  10. #34
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    I don't understand the hate with dmc. Sure I'd be pissed if they changed an iconic character I liked but the game itself looks great. Better than dmc 3 that I played on ps2 (didn't like it too much so quit after a while)

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    I don't understand the hate with dmc. Sure I'd be pissed if they changed an iconic character I liked but the game itself looks great. Better than dmc 3 that I played on ps2 (didn't like it too much so quit after a while)
    You broke my heart itachi... love that game so much haha.


    But yeah, I agree with Fon... and will leave all judgements for when the game actually is in my hands.

    In response to the OP... in my opinion gameplay should ALWAYS come first... some instances where a graphical idea stems a game can be successful but I always look at Crysis.. graphics over gameplay right there

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkVincent07 View Post
    You broke my heart itachi... love that game so much haha.


    But yeah, I agree with Fon... and will leave all judgements for when the game actually is in my hands.

    In response to the OP... in my opinion gameplay should ALWAYS come first... some instances where a graphical idea stems a game can be successful but I always look at Crysis.. graphics over gameplay right there
    I think I went a bit too far considering I haven't even played the new dmc
    My only gripe was the camera in dmc 3 and wasn't a big fan of the combo system

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    I wouldn't be so keen to argue about their technologies because Agni's Philosiphy is by far the best looking real time demo I have seen and Unreal Engine 4 or even Cryengine 3 have not impressed me that much (the latter has wowed me many times though). Final fantasy XIII is still one of the best looking games to come on consoles. Fox engine is also looking really good but we still haven't seen much.

    What you CAN easily argue is the general quality of their games, which is sadly lacking most of the time.

    An emphatic "no" on my part. UE4 and CryEngine 3 tech demos have blown the east wide open. In particular because they're fully fledged freely available developer SDK's. I have both the UE3 and CryEngine 3 SDK's. UE4 will most likely be the same.

    The point is, they're ready to rock and roll right now. There isn't a more advanced engine available right now than CryEngine 3. Go look at the latest tech demo that was running in real time, they just released it a few days ago.

    Epic and Crytek are just more skilled at this then anyone in Japan. Arguably the same applies to DICE.

    There is no real comparison on the technology front, but I do agree that the games from the east have also been lacking.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 08-13-2012 at 14:02.


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    I think the drop in quality for some japanese devs who were so dominant last gen has to do with that technology jump. The jump from PS2 to PS3 was insanely massive on all levels - tech, funding, human resource etc etc and that caught alot of the 3rd party console devs out. They were still making games with a PS2 mindset and not willing to adapt.

    While the PC devs came out to console in force having had this kind of tech and resources in place for years with the experiance ready to roll - bioware, epic, bethesda etc. releasing some of the best games this gen.

    By adapt I don't mean make a game more like COD, that is just stupid. I mean trim the fat and limitations from last gen - FF13 and FF14 did not do this, they had the same exact corridor boring BS annoying and boring play style and game design as last gen - it was clunky and not fun. They didn't bother looking enough at how others were approaching game design for fun or chose to ignore it.

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    That's Ninja Theory in a nutshell. Good luck with DmC.

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    Still the game is 30 fps....more on the visual huh ?
    Remember when they said that the game would play like if it was 60fps with 30 fps

    When we asked what advantage Unreal Engine running at 30fps would give DmC over Capccom Japan's engine, Itsuno pointed toward the visual side of the game: "The one advantage that Unreal [Engine] gives, especially in the hands of this team, is that there's a really good deal of visual impact in the game."

    Of course, some fans would say that this sounds like a compromise. Not so, says the DmC producers.

    "If you do play it, you'll see that it still feels really good."

    Eshiro: "It comes down to the way you make a game. There are ways to make a 30fps game feel really smooth -- almost every bit as smooth as a 60fps game. Since we knew we were going for 30 early on, if you play the game and examine the way it feels, it doesn't feel that much different than its 60 frame brethren."

    http://www.destructoid.com/sdcc-dmc-...0-231390.phtml
    Last edited by TEEDA; 08-13-2012 at 18:25.
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  17. #41
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    I feel like that's been the case with most games this generation. Aside from Infamous and Assassin's Creed, most of what has come out this generation feels like something I could have played on the PS2, except with more money thrown into its production values.

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  19. #42
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    Honestly, one of the main reasons for the west has dominated is because of the various third party game engines that have allowed for speedier game development. It's something I wish Japan would do. I still love Japanese games, but it's no secret that the west has simply plowed ahead.
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  21. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    An emphatic "no" on my part. UE4 and CryEngine 3 tech demos have blown the east wide open. In particular because they're fully fledged freely available developer SDK's. I have both the UE3 and CryEngine 3 SDK's. UE4 will most likely be the same.

    The point is, they're ready to rock and roll right now. There isn't a more advanced engine available right now than CryEngine 3. Go look at the latest tech demo that was running in real time, they just released it a few days ago.

    Epic and Crytek are just more skilled at this then anyone in Japan. Arguably the same applies to DICE.

    There is no real comparison on the technology front, but I do agree that the games from the east have also been lacking.
    The reason people get so hyped about cryteck presentations and unreal demos is that they list everything that their engines are doing in the trailers to give an impression that those techniques are exclusive to their own engines. Most eastern engines are already doing those things. As far as SDK availability is concerned, that is a business strategy NOT a technological feat. I have UDK 3 and cryengine 3 aswell. Its up to the companies if they choose to do so. The reason the west is better now is because of the number of great devs here. Japan only has a couple

    And I was the one who posted the crytek trailer in the cryengine thread so I know their latest offerings. Good stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    The reason people get so hyped about cryteck presentations and unreal demos is that they list everything that their engines are doing in the trailers to give an impression that those techniques are exclusive to their own engines. Most eastern engines are already doing those things. As far as SDK availability is concerned, that is a business strategy NOT a technological feat. I have UDK 3 and cryengine 3 aswell. Its up to the companies if they choose to do so. The reason the west is better now is because of the number of great devs here. Japan only has a couple

    And I was the one who posted the crytek trailer in the cryengine thread so I know their latest offerings. Good stuff
    I implore you to show me an 'eastern engine' that is as robust, developed and developer friendly as Cryengine 3.

    Closest I can think of is the Capcom MT Framework engine, but it simply a 'no-contest' between it and CryEngine.

    You're not going to find one.

    Nor will you find one as advanced as Frostbite. Or even arguably one as mature and developed as Unreal Engine 3.


    Edit: lol dude, it is a sincerely amazing feat to create a "ready" SDK for mass distribution for people to use. Something that is built to work with individuals not presently involved in its creation or employed at that company.

    C'mon man you know better than that.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 08-14-2012 at 00:01.


  23. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I implore you to show me an 'eastern engine' that is as robust, developed and developer friendly as Cryengine 3.

    Closest I can think of is the Capcom MT Framework engine, but it simply a 'no-contest' between it and CryEngine.

    You're not going to find one.

    Nor will you find one as advanced as Frostbite. Or even arguably one as mature and developed as Unreal Engine 3.


    Edit: lol dude, it is a sincerely amazing feat to create a "ready" SDK for mass distribution for people to use. Something that is built to work with individuals not presently involved in its creation or employed at that company.

    C'mon man you know better than that.
    I still prefer in-house engines
    Frostbite is at the moment a EA in house engine cuz no other company uses it that Im aware of, same with MTF, which is really Capcom japan in house, not even the new DMC uses it, just RE6
    And I can only think of UE3 that is commercially used
    If I had to pick one it maybe the frostbite engine as it runs actually runs at 720p on PS3 compared to sub HD that CE3 does
    Whats naughty dogs engine?
    And that new CE3 tech was a Crysis 3 trailer, should we be worried about C3 on current gen, are they advertising something we'll never see in the game unless we have highend PC game rigs or nextgen consoles?
    Or should we expect a blurry version instead? Lol


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    Even if we exclude third party engines (CE3, UE3, IDtech) the 'in-house' stuff from the west still roflstomps the east. For instance, as you pointed out, Frostbite. There's also the Naughty Dog engine, Killzone engine, Halo engine, etc etc.

    Lol they just can't win man.


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    I simply think is a stylistic thing with gaming for Japanese vs West. Lets just be honest here....really honest....the best selling console in Japan is the Wii and 3DS or whatever...I mean neither are graphical beasts...and the games that the japanese market eats up like they are M&Ms are games that are graphically not even close to what is done in other games. They love anime and these types of games. So Japanese developers are influenced by their taste and the publics taste and produce mainly these types of games. They are capable of doing beautiful games no doubt but those games aren't any more successful than games with little sprite characters. Previous gens when graphics hadn't advanced these games were attractive to the west and east alike. Technology advanced and the West's taste changed to follow and the Eastern gamers taste haven't changed to follow that. I think the developers are capable (intellectually) of building such engines and games but that would be a waste of resources because it doesn't really support their vision of their games. I think they are annoyed the West taste is to be graphic $#@!s most of the time because the japanese focus on these stories and gameplay elements that have little to do with graphics. Its simply a difference in taste imo. They could do it (even with limited resources) but it doesn't serve their purpose. However, if they want to be a global influence and get global sales they have to change and evolve. Just like RE and MGS and so on continue to evolve and move forward these other japanese developers will also have to or they will forever be a niche market. Says nothing of quality of games but simply a fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davin_g View Post
    I simply think is a stylistic thing with gaming for Japanese vs West. Lets just be honest here....really honest....the best selling console in Japan is the Wii and 3DS or whatever...I mean neither are graphical beasts...and the games that the japanese market eats up like they are M&Ms are games that are graphically not even close to what is done in other games. They love anime and these types of games. So Japanese developers are influenced by their taste and the publics taste and produce mainly these types of games. They are capable of doing beautiful games no doubt but those games aren't any more successful than games with little sprite characters. Previous gens when graphics hadn't advanced these games were attractive to the west and east alike. Technology advanced and the West's taste changed to follow and the Eastern gamers taste haven't changed to follow that. I think the developers are capable (intellectually) of building such engines and games but that would be a waste of resources because it doesn't really support their vision of their games. I think they are annoyed the West taste is to be graphic $#@!s most of the time because the japanese focus on these stories and gameplay elements that have little to do with graphics. Its simply a difference in taste imo. They could do it (even with limited resources) but it doesn't serve their purpose. However, if they want to be a global influence and get global sales they have to change and evolve. Just like RE and MGS and so on continue to evolve and move forward these other japanese developers will also have to or they will forever be a niche market. Says nothing of quality of games but simply a fact.

    Why can't we have it all? western games like mass effect have it all, it has a great story, great graphics and gameplay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super_Lilith View Post
    Why can't we have it all? western games like mass effect have it all, it has a great story, great graphics and gameplay.
    The only thing holding mass effect back is the technical shortcomings. Horrendous facial animations (might aswell talk to a rock), game lags when streaming levels through HDD/disc, terrible aliasing and low res textures in parts of the game.

    Granted I have yet to play ME3, but those problems could be easily solved if more time was taken in the development period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    The only thing holding mass effect back is the technical shortcomings. Horrendous facial animations (might aswell talk to a rock), game lags when streaming levels through HDD/disc, terrible aliasing and low res textures in parts of the game.

    Granted I have yet to play ME3, but those problems could be easily solved if more time was taken in the development period.
    And think you forgot that it isn't actually any good at its gameplay mechanics, its a good game
    But its shooter aspect is not anything to write home about and thw stuff in between is a bit stiff.

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