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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost-Rhayne View Post
    Team Ico don't have a track record for $#@!ing PS3 fans over with $#@!ty programming. They didn't release a game knowing that "some" PS3 users would have problems, they didn't release a title changing patch weeks upon weeks after other platforms got it and they didn't release a timed exclusive DLC only to tell S3 users that they can't get their $#@! working. I don't know why you bother defending them to be honest, they have $#@!ed PS3 users up the ass since Fallout 3 and royaly with Skyrim.
    I suppose I recognise Bethesda actually appear to be trying. They've not just shipped and they don't appear to have downed tools, either. Starting to look like the best thing they could've done is say nothing. They'd get crucified for that too, though.

    On Team Ico, they've actually yet to release anything this generation aside from a HD remake. They don't have the multi-platform issues that the likes of Bethesda would need to consider and develop around, but we've seen no release and they're having their own massive issues. Doesn't look good, either. Sony are hardly even talking about the game any more. What does that tell us?

    But again, we're not getting bent out of shape about it.




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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Georges View Post
    Is PS3 development that hard? I'm sure if they hire PS3 devs they'll get better $#@!. If the 360 can run this stuff smoothly, the more powerful console might be able to handle this.
    Yes it is. its like trying ride a bike, juggle, and compose a song all at the same time.

    Anyone blaming Bethesda have no idea what they have to do, nor can they point to a game like any of Bethesda's titles on the PS3, because they don't exist.
    If people could say "look at X game they did it", they might have a legitimate complaint, but they cant and they don't.

    These are not back yard hackers, these are dedicated, hardcore programmers trying to to the impossible just to please PS3 fans.

    And they get $#@! for it.

    Who you been listening to suggest the PS3 is the more powerful console?
    It clearly aint your eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdoggy View Post
    with how Bethesda handled the PS3 version of Skyrim, I wont support them anymore until they pull their heads out of their asses. getting quite tired of this company and this engine they are using. maybe they should start tweaking the engine more but I guess that's to complicated for them o.O ugh.
    What makes you so sure ANYONE could have done better?
    By all means, you go program a better engine...

    Or suggest someone who could have...
    Last edited by mynd; 09-01-2012 at 12:44.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yes it is. its like trying ride a bike, juggle, and compose a song all at the same time.

    Anyone blaming Bethesda have no idea what they have to do, nor can they point to a game like any of Bethesda's titles on the PS3, because they don't exist.
    If people could say "look at X game they did it", they might have a legitimate complaint, but they cant and they don't.

    These are not back yard hackers, these are dedicated, hardcore programmers trying to to the impossible just to please PS3 fans.

    And they get $#@! for it.

    Who you been listening to suggest the PS3 is the more powerful console?
    It clearly aint your eyes.



    What makes you so sure ANYONE could have done better?
    By all means, you go program a better engine...

    Or suggest someone who could have...
    It seems so easy to say that, "PS3 is just not as powerful"
    thou there is always legitimate reason for the 360, " its was built for PS3"


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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yes it is. its like trying ride a bike, juggle, and compose a song all at the same time.

    Anyone blaming Bethesda have no idea what they have to do, nor can they point to a game like any of Bethesda's titles on the PS3, because they don't exist.
    If people could say "look at X game they did it", they might have a legitimate complaint, but they cant and they don't.

    These are not back yard hackers, these are dedicated, hardcore programmers trying to to the impossible just to please PS3 fans.

    And they get $#@! for it.

    Who you been listening to suggest the PS3 is the more powerful console?
    It clearly aint your eyes.



    What makes you so sure ANYONE could have done better?
    By all means, you go program a better engine...

    Or suggest someone who could have...



    if you think they did the best they could or couldn't have done any better, fair enough. but if you think I am going to listen to you spew that crap about "by all means, you go program a better engine". If the engine isn't capable of running well on the PS3, then you may have to make it so it does run good, otherwise there is no point in making a game that is running like completely crap on the PS3. Which in turn will cause me to say something like "I wont support this company with their crappy engine" the engine is $#@! for the PS3. it may be good for Xbox360 and/or PC but it sucks for the PS3. see, you are looking at this game for the Xbox360, but remember Mynd, we are in the PS3 section, if you want to talk about the greatness of this engine for the Xbox, there is a section for that. it runs like crap, period. o.O

    plus, you talking about Bethesda, a Company that can barely patch a bug on the PC version, try again Mynd, I would love to hear more excuses.
    Last edited by Bigdoggy; 09-01-2012 at 16:56.
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  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    "More powerful" has always been a bull$#@! claim. Yeah, the PS3 is "more powerful" if you ignore the fact that it cannot run a 300MB kernel at all, under any circumstances, and both the Xbox 360 and PC can with ease. Under a very select set of circumstances, the PS3 can process data faster than the Xbox 360, but processing data faster is not the same as being more powerful, and in order to get that faster processing you must design your kernel around the PS3 limitations and tailor it to the things the PS3 does well. This causes the game to suffer on the two other platforms. And let's be clear here, when it comes to Bethesda games the PS3 is the least important platform with the fewest fans. Skyrim is the 5th Elder Scrolls game, but only the second on the PS3, and the first was a year+ old port from the 360. The Elder Scrolls series is a PC game series that was ported to consoles, not the other way around. Only a fool would suggest that Bethesda should dump their establish fan based that they've been building up since the early 1990s in favor of a handful of whiny PS3 fans. To date Skyrim has sold over 11 million copies. Over 50% of those came from the Xbox 360, and 30% were from the PC. Bethesda isn't going to rewrite their entire game engine and recode everything just for the less than 20% of Skyrim buyers who own PS3s.
    I totally agree. I also agree with the PS3 being more powerful claim being a load of bs. Thats just Sony PR. Developers have even said the SPU resources get wasted by having to support the inferior GPU. And developers who have ported from PS3 to 360 have said that anything that works on PS3 will work on 360. And I believe them over Sony PR and the fanboys on internet forums. Plus I've seen both multiplats and exclusives on 360 that look as good as anything I've seen on PS3. As for the people crying incompetent programmers they should be annoyed that Sony went with split RAM and an inferior GPU to create developer unfriendly hardware architecture. Thats why I believe the rumors about Sony going with a more traditional architecture with PS4. The whole lazy developer excuse just isnt valid at this point of the generation.

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    I totally agree. I also agree with the PS3 being more powerful claim being a load of bs. Thats just Sony PR. Developers have even said the SPU resources get wasted by having to support the inferior GPU. And developers who have ported from PS3 to 360 have said that anything that works on PS3 will work on 360. And I believe them over Sony PR and the fanboys on internet forums. Plus I've seen both multiplats and exclusives on 360 that look as good as anything I've seen on PS3. As for the people crying incompetent programmers they should be annoyed that Sony went with split RAM and an inferior GPU to create developer unfriendly hardware architecture. Thats why I believe the rumors about Sony going with a more traditional architecture with PS4. The whole lazy developer excuse just isnt valid at this point of the generation.
    Sorry, It all sounded better on paper though. That's why I said that, I don't have a wide knowledge of console hardware.

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdoggy View Post
    if you think they did the best they could or couldn't have done any better, fair enough. but if you think I am going to listen to you spew that crap about "by all means, you go program a better engine". If the engine isn't capable of running well on the PS3, then you may have to make it so it does run good, otherwise there is no point in making a game that is running like completely crap on the PS3. Which in turn will cause me to say something like "I wont support this company with their crappy engine" the engine is $#@! for the PS3. it may be good for Xbox360 and/or PC but it sucks for the PS3. see, you are looking at this game for the Xbox360, but remember Mynd, we are in the PS3 section, if you want to talk about the greatness of this engine for the Xbox, there is a section for that. it runs like crap, period. o.O

    plus, you talking about Bethesda, a Company that can barely patch a bug on the PC version, try again Mynd, I would love to hear more excuses.
    I don't have to make excuses, it seems to be the domain of people on this thread to do that, and it seems to be that it falls down to the programmers, not the hardware.

    Yes they could have made a game that ran well on the Ps3, didn't have half as many quests and objects in the world...but then they would still get a bad rap for not being able to program right on the the PS3..blah de blah blah..

    You cant get around it if they had half arsed the game because they wanted it to run well, and sold you a game that was not the same as the other versions you still would be saying "I aint buying another Besthesda game" wouldn't you?

    Yes you would.

    Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
    It seems so easy to say that, "PS3 is just not as powerful"
    thou there is always legitimate reason for the 360, " its was built for PS3"


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    Its not that it isn't powerful, its just that it has certain limitations.
    A blanket statement like "is more powerful" is not what we get as an end result.
    The PS3 is incredibly powerful machine...its just horribly inefficient with that power.

    If it was a heater it would sucks through twice as much power, but heat the same space.
    Last edited by mynd; 09-01-2012 at 23:58.

  9. #33
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    Makes me worried for other games to now, dishonoured, doom 3.......................crosses fingers )

  10. #34
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    So I take it dishonored is a inferior game unless its not coming to PS3, uh Bethesda?
    Afterall, this is a PS3 limitation that can't be fix? Or so they say
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    Last edited by TGO; 09-09-2012 at 15:51.

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  11. #35
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    Hope they get it sorted skyrim is one of my favourite games (

  12. #36
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    they say that to try and cover up their own incompetence. There are other developers that have been known to say stupid crap like that, another developer is DICE studios.

    there is at least something good that came out of this generation of consoles and that is, this gen. of consoles has really shown which developers are competent and which developers are incompetent as well as which developers make excuses. This gen has really put the spotlight on those developers.
    Last edited by Bigdoggy; 09-09-2012 at 16:28.
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  13. #37
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    You might be right there, Bigdoggy. I mean, if Sony's engineers can't get the software running properly on it's own hardware; what hope does anyone else have...


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    Doom 3 on PS3 is already having issues, but it's a very geometry heavy game, geometry ain't the PS3 strong point, but I'm sure they could implement stencil shadows on the SPU's

    Dishonored isn't quite the complex, huge open world game like skyrim is, I wouldn't be too concerned about it.

  15. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Doom 3 on PS3 is already having issues, but it's a very geometry heavy game, geometry ain't the PS3 strong point, but I'm sure they could implement stencil shadows on the SPU's

    Dishonored isn't quite the complex, huge open world game like skyrim is, I wouldn't be too concerned about it.
    Ya jokin?
    Doom 3?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
    Ya jokin?
    Doom 3?

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    Nope...

    https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/st...57388987895810


    Stencil shadows (which was the first shadowing method I learned), is really heavy on wriitng the same data (basically "+1" or "-1") to a buffer, but it does it by rendeirng all gemortey 3 times. (open/closed + final).
    Thats without any other effects.

  17. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Nope...

    https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/st...57388987895810


    Stencil shadows (which was the first shadowing method I learned), is really heavy on wriitng the same data (basically "+1" or "-1") to a buffer, but it does it by rendeirng all gemortey 3 times. (open/closed + final).
    Thats without any other effects.
    So this is like transparent textures? ie Silent Hill?
    Apparently the PS2 was great at this and is the reason even the PC version had simplified fog, but is the reason behind the poor quality fog in the HD editions according to the original Teamsilent dev, apart from it being just a poor port anyway
    Its why I never believe in inferior ports being a factor of the machines power, just one little thing is like a monkeyrench in the system
    Both machines doing what they do best and the end result is the result imo

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  18. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
    So this is like transparent textures? ie Silent Hill?
    Apparently the PS2 was great at this and is the reason even the PC version had simplified fog, but is the reason behind the poor quality fog in the HD editions according to the original Teamsilent dev, apart from it being just a poor port anyway
    Its why I never believe in inferior ports being a factor of the machines power, just one little thing is like a monkeyrench in the system
    Both machines doing what they do best and the end result is the result imo

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    No its called vertex shadows, or stencil shadows, its a method carmack help invent (by reversing the original method), it gives gemotrically correct shadows, but has its disadvantages (the shadows tend to be "hard" edges, but you dont get the "acne" or stiplling effect we have with shadow maps.

    Shadow maps are prefered these day because they are more flexable and softer, models had to be perfectly "closed" to work in stencil shadows.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_volume
    Last edited by mynd; 09-10-2012 at 02:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    No its called vertex shadows, or stencil shadows, its a method carmack help invente (by reversing the original method), it gives gemotrically correct shadows, but has its disadvantages (the shadows tend to be "hard" edges, but you dont get the "acne" or stiplling effect we have with shadow maps.

    Shadow maps are prefered these day because they are more flexable and softer, models had to be perfectly "closed" to work in stencil shadows.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_volume
    Yeah I know lol I was using Silent Hill as a reference
    Basically its just not a strong point, and is probably not widely used I guess
    Its obviously not the first time, I remember a Dreamcast port of a PSX game lookin cleaner just had some terrible gradient effects in everywhere, and that was due to the DC not being good at it, eventhough the PSX used the effect a lot in its games
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  20. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
    Yeah I know lol I was using Silent Hill as a reference
    Basically its just not a strong point, and is probably not widely used I guess
    Its obviously not the first time, I remember a Dreamcast port of a PSX game lookin cleaner just had some terrible gradient effects in everywhere, and that was due to the DC not being good at it, eventhough the PSX used the effect a lot in its games
    Sent via Codec
    I'm pretty sure they will figure away around it, the SPU's should be able to help create a stencil buffer, even if it ends up being only half the res (which is simlar to what Uncharted does for AO), they can make it a bit blurrier and softer edges. Could even be a bonus...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    What makes you so sure ANYONE could have done better?
    By all means, you go program a better engine...

    Or suggest someone who could have...
    Bethesda isn't known for their amazing programmers or very well optimized games. It's true, most programmers probably wouldn't even attempt to make a game like Skyrim on modern hardware, let alone hardware that is six or seven years old.

    But that doesn't change the fact that they did make the attempt and released Skyrim on PS3 in a very unpolished state. So, it's no surprise that they're having problems with Dawnguard. But if the PS3 couldn't handle Skyrim or the engine wasn't designed with it in mind, they shouldn't have released it at all.

    At the end of the day, the blame falls on the people who made the game. You can't blame Sony or the PS3. Well, you can blame Sony for the poor design of the PS3 itself, but that's old news.

    But that machine has been on the market for years and Skyrim isn't the first game Bethesda made for it. They knew the hardware and it's limitations going in.

    Nevertheless, I bet Microsoft is kicking themselves right about now. I wonder how much they paid for Dawnguard's timed-exclusive deal. That was a waste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yes it is. its like trying ride a bike, juggle, and compose a song all at the same time.

    Anyone blaming Bethesda have no idea what they have to do, nor can they point to a game like any of Bethesda's titles on the PS3, because they don't exist.
    If people could say "look at X game they did it", they might have a legitimate complaint, but they cant and they don't.

    These are not back yard hackers, these are dedicated, hardcore programmers trying to to the impossible just to please PS3 fans.

    And they get $#@! for it.

    Who you been listening to suggest the PS3 is the more powerful console?
    It clearly aint your eyes.



    What makes you so sure ANYONE could have done better?
    By all means, you go program a better engine...

    Or suggest someone who could have...
    Why should anyone buy a 'broken' game? (The reason for it being so really does not matter in this situation.) If their game doesn't work on the PS3, it doesn't. People can spend their money somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    Why should anyone buy a 'broken' game? (The reason for it being so really does not matter in this situation.) If their game doesn't work on the PS3, it doesn't. People can spend their money somewhere else.
    It works fine on the PS3. Its not broken out of the box (well ok after being patched its not broken out of the box).
    Its is a select few who can "break" the game to the point where it has poblems. It doesnt happen to everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    It works fine on the PS3. Its not broken out of the box (well ok after being patched its not broken out of the box).
    Its is a select few who can "break" the game to the point where it has poblems. It doesnt happen to everyone.
    It shouldn't need to be patched to be a playable game out of the box. Furthermore, Bethesda knew what rough shape the PS3 version was in before the game was released.

    When IGN reviewed Skyrim, it's surely significant that we were given free access to the Xbox 360 and PC versions prior to launch, but had to buy a PS3 copy from retail after it was released to the world. We are currently playing large-save files across a variety of PlayStation 3 models and will be publishing a follow up story.
    Source

    This whole thing with Dawnguard reeks of a company trying to save face after knowingly releasing a faulty product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    i wonder what the issues are?
    They suck at programming for the PS3?
    Shinei!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadside View Post
    Bethesda isn't known for their amazing programmers or very well optimized games. It's true, most programmers probably wouldn't even attempt to make a game like Skyrim on modern hardware, let alone hardware that is six or seven years old. But that doesn't change the fact that they did make the attempt and released Skyrim on PS3 in a very unpolished state. So, it's no surprise that they're having problems with Dawnguard. But if the PS3 couldn't handle Skyrim or the engine wasn't designed with it in mind, they shouldn't have released it at all. At the end of the day, the blame falls on the people who made the game. You can't blame Sony or the PS3. Well, you can blame Sony for the poor design of the PS3 itself, but that's old news. But that machine has been on the market for years and Skyrim isn't the first game Bethesda made for it. They knew the hardware and it's limitations going in. Nevertheless, I bet Microsoft is kicking themselves right about now. I wonder how much they paid for Dawnguard's timed-exclusive deal. That was a waste.
    And I bet the people that bought the PS3 version of Skyrim are kicking themselves even more about now. Talk about a waste. lol

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