Are most modern Japanese games based on too much perfectionism?

[Vanille]

When it comes to difficulty that is.

During my play through with FF13, Dark Souls and DOA5's Legend mode I couldn't help but notice that most of the difficulty comes from high demand of perfection. Even with FF13-2's Nabaat fight if you don't play perfectly to the T it's game over or the battles drag out. If you also look at Virtua Fighter series which is highly ranked in Japan it has the most frustrating command input that demands you be perfect in every second-frame or else your combo won't come out at all.

I think the perfectionism culture in Japan is ruining gaming difficulty for their games. When you design a game that forces you into a corner for not playing perfectly like a god it LIMITS freedom of how to take on challenges in your own way. The more I realize just how artificial their game difficulty is the less I even want to game now.

What makes things even worse is the rewards for beating things suck also. Square for whatever reason though it was fun to torment games by making these tedious bosses completely random after you've paid cash for it. Team Ninja thought it was fun to have insane cheating A.I that forces you to spam stupid anti-A.I moves. Then they expect you to do a no-continue just to unlock a damn bikini that was in DOAX2.

As a Japan fan I'm questioning rather or not I should even bother buying anymore Japanese games. These sort of unrewarding tedium gets old after a few years.

[Cyn]

The japanese games industry has problems (albeit exaggerated) but what you describe here is not one of them.

[Vanille]

The japanese games industry has problems (albeit exaggerated) but what you describe here is not one of them.

Oh yes, because cheating A.I and unrewarding tedious Jrpg battles that demand god like perfection are so much fun.

Yes, this is a problem.

[Ixion]

That's definitely one of the main reasons FFXIII was not fun (to me at least). Towards the end of the game, you had to use a certain paradigm pattern to win. It was about doing exactly what the developer wanted you to do, instead of developing your own way to win.

[Blacksite]

I thought you stopped playing Japanese-developed games?

[Cyn]

Oh yes, because cheating A.I and unrewarding tedious Jrpg battles that demand god like perfection are so much fun.

Yes, this is a problem.

As if all japanese games have cheating AI lol. I can name you as many western games with cheap AI, more even.

Likewise not all japanese games are JRPG's are they? I agree that JRPG's are outdated but then I have never liked turn base grinding RPG's, even when they were cool. Cos it's a shit genre.

I mean Dark Souls which you have named is a terrible example. It has rewarding gameplay, is progressive, in fact it's innovative, doesn't require perfection or even much in the way of skill and the AI is certainly not cheap. Although it's less fair than Demon's Souls was.

[DeviousOne]

It has been there culture first instance was the release of super Mario Bros 2...the man reason why the US didn't get it was because they felt it was too hard and frustrating. So we got the Super Mario bros 2 game that wasn't an original Mario game.

They haven't changed and I would expect them not to lmao

[Fenix]

Why did you mention Dark Souls?
You honestly kind of lost my interest when you said it cause there is not much, if anything, wrong with it. I'd love if it had more ways to heal, like Demons' Souls did.. but thats not an issue really.

[Vanille]

As if all japanese games have cheating AI lol. I can name you as many western games with cheap AI, more even.

Likewise not all japanese games are JRPG's are they? I agree that JRPG's are outdated but then I have never liked turn base grinding RPG's, even when they were cool. Cos it's a shit genre.

I mean Dark Souls which you have named is a terrible example. It has rewarding gameplay, is progressive, in fact it's innovative, doesn't require perfection or even much in the way of skill and the AI is certainly not cheap. Although it's less fair than Demon's Souls was.

-Random drops after 2-10 or even 20 hours isn't fun
-Cheating fighting game A.I shows me devs are morons for not designing it to help you become a little better. Being countered to death has no purpose besides pissing people off.
-Forcing me into one play style isn't a challenge. It means Japanese people have control issues in life.
-Getting NOTHING after beating a tedious boss is insulting.
-Making enemies cast a million spells on me while they auto heal isn't a challenge. It's just really pointless tedium


Just about everything comes down to pointless tedium during battles, fast enemy speed, perfectionism and overpowered bosses dealing 70% damage. Nothing in modern Japanese games are challenging. It's all simply pointless tedium that panders to certain male gamer egos who don't realize how fake the difficulty is because they are too prideful and arrogant.

[Soldier 95B]

Perfection? No, not even close. Sadly.

[radgamer420]

Perfection? No, not even close. Sadly.

This. I dont play Japanese developed games anymore because most of them are a steaming pile of crap.

[Kakihara_Anjo]

Perfection? No, not even close. Sadly.

This. I dont play Japanese developed games anymore because most of them are a steaming pile of crap.

These 2 people only read the thread title.

As for me, I haven't really experienced what your talking about. Though I don't play fighting games, so cant comment on that.
I don't really care about getting a reward for fighting a boss.

There should be only a couple ways to defeat a hard boss, and figuring them out is fun.

Something Dishonored did poorly in my opinion. There are so many ways to complete an objection, that the game became incredibly easy. There is no wrong way to do anything, and to me, that is more boring than having to figure out the one right way.

[Yuuichi]

Something Dishonored did poorly in my opinion. There are so many ways to complete an objection, that the game became incredibly easy. There is no wrong way to do anything, and to me, that is more boring than having to figure out the one right way.

Agree. I mean I am all for playing a game the way YOU want to but we are playing games of some peoples vision and they want you to experience the work they did. When you make a game where you can literaly complete a quest any way you like then there is no option for failure because even failure is an option so there is no hard consequence of "omg I have to do it one of these ways or I am going to fail and restart"

Rare drops have always been a staple in rpg games. FF13 messed up because it wasent hard but throttle your leveling. FF13-2 corrected this and is def what the first should have been. Demons souls and dark souls may have seemed hard at first, but once you memorize patterns it became easy, and those games you could make your char however you want. In all three mentioned games you could mess up a little and still be ok. Mess up a lot and yeah your dead over and over. I can not comment on fighting games because I don't play those.

Give dragons dogma a try. The fights are great, the story is meh, rare drops are chest where you save,open, oh noes not what I want, stab yourself and restart at chest. You only get one save spot tho.

[Fon]

Probably the reason why I enjoy the Atelier series is that it can prove to be a challenge if you don't manage your time wisely. The franchise(The first 3 on PS3 that is) - focuses on limited time to complete the story but you can lessen the burden by figuring out shortcuts to save time and managing your activities in a methodical manner. You don't have to be perfect of course and it takes more then one try to have a better understanding.

My brothers have pretty much mastered, Demon's and Dark Souls. While the games are very difficult for me, my brothers make it look like a walk in the park.

[coolguy]

The japanese game devolpers have went down the tubes expect for the metal gear dev. they use to be good.
but the rest of the worlds devolpers caught up and passed the japanese.now they must catch up to the rst of the world again

[Soldier 95B]

These 2 people only read the thread title.

false. I can't speak for rad though.


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[keefy]

Forget about AI play against real humans that where the real challenge is with beat em ups.
Assuminf DOA = Dead or Alive.

[AaronSOLDIER]

You only play Final Fantasy, that is the problem.

[Cybertox]

The Japanese games should be perfect, not the effort which is required to beat them.

[PS3-The Ultimate Machine]

No offense but you're just ranting. These games are designed by a unique group of individuals to deliver a distinct singular experience. What you're asking for basically fragments the entire game. That's why the sandbox genre hasn't beaten out every other genre because people enjoy the unique experiences.
You talk of difficulty stemming from perfectionism, but you fail to realize that most games purposely provide a single (or a handful at best) play style, so that the experience doesn't fracture because of all the choices. As far as fighting games go, countering always requires perfect timing because it is a high risk - high reward playstyle, go online and you'll have your ass handed to you more times than you'd like to count because there are people who like to Learn a Fighting game's mechanics, whereas you're suggesting that every game should give you the opportunity to play the game in your own style. There do exist games that do that like Dues Ex (sic?), Dishonored, Crysis ( though in a comparatively limited fashion), but none of them (for the most of us) are Game Of the Year material, it's because they fail to provide a UNIQUE experience.
It's also ironic that you accuse the devs of having real life control issues, yet you always want to be in perfect control of everything that happens in the game.
Most japanese games try to provide a difficulty for everyone and that I think is the main problem, that Absolutely ANYONE can complete the lower difficulties without even knowing half the mechanics.
I could go on, but I'm steering away from the point : Perfectionism has nothing to do with the japanese game difficulty, the problem is the super easy playstyle provided by the rest of the industry because of the stupid as stones casual wave that anyone and everyone (not really talking about the OP at this point) can finish on the hardest difficulties, but when they get to a real Hardcore experience they start getting frustrated because their actual skill doesn't come close to where they think they are. Dark Souls is designed to be unforgiving, Virtua Fighter is designed to be realistic to the point of being a simulator NOT an arcade button masher like Soul Caliber. Countering is fundamental to the DoA fighting system, if you don't get better at that then you should not be playing a rock-paper-scissor styled Fighter. FFXIII-2 DLC is difficult for the hardcore, most long time FF fans love the difficult and long battles, because you can't just waltz around the battle field but have to work hard to figure out a winning tactic or weakness when there are none apparent.
If actual difficulty is what you call 'perfectionism' then you should just try the easier settings (they're there for a reason).

[Soldier 95B]

The Japanese games should be perfect, not the effort which is required to beat them.

Not just Japanese but all of them. Japan is not any better.

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[Dave-The-Rave]

Oh yes, because cheating A.I and unrewarding tedious Jrpg battles that demand god like perfection are so much fun.

Yes, this is a problem.

I find difficult JRPG battles extremely rewarding, which is why I like them so much.

[Equinoqs]

I think you meant "Are most modern western games based on too little perfectionism?"

At least Japanese games require actually PLAYING the game in order to get good at it, unlike so many western games nowadays that are geared toward out-of-the-box rewarding.

[Bigdoggy]

I like games that give me a bunch of choices. I really don't need to play linear games which is why I played more PC games over console games but started now playing more console games because now the games are giving more choices. The problem here is certain people think a good game is a game based on linearity, it's not. while there are good games based on linearity there are a lot of good games that give you a bunch of options. As for Dishonored, I honestly see nothing wrong with the game and how the game gives you choices to do what you want to do. The story is also easy to follow. Sometimes I think some people haven't even played the friggin game. o.O

As for some Japanese devs making games where you need to be perfect, FF7 says hello to that. Remember fighting the "weapons"? you had to be absolutely perfect and spot on while the red weapon you could only have a certain person in your party alive in order to beat him. that is just the way some games are.

The only way some games will get past this and keep the difficulty is when a breakthrough of technology comes out that revolutionizes A.I..

[Naxi]

This isn't exactly the norm in japanese games.