the problem comes from the second amendment imo. guns should not be a right. they just shouldn't. they should be something you can earn if you want. much like a car i guess. if you've got no spatial awareness, you aren't allowed to drive. if you've no braincells, you shouldn't be allowed a gun.
what exactly defines the level at which you can have one, i don't know, but i doubt reforms will ever get that far. but people shouldn't be as shocked when something like this happens. its horrific, but not overly surprising. if to prevent this you have to take away everyones' right, and start all over again, so be it imo.
some of those teachers though. true selflessness - and there aren't many selfless acts around today
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Last edited by J3ff3; 12-17-2012 at 04:17.Got YLOD? In the UK? I'll buy it off you.
Old article, but relevant to the discussion:
“How many kids have been killed by school fire in all of North America in the past 50 years? Kids killed... school fire... North America... 50 years... How many? Zero. That’s right. Not one single kid has been killed by school fire anywhere in North America in the past half a century. Now, how many kids have been killed by school violence?”
So began an extraordinary daylong seminar presented by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a Pulitzer Prize nominated author, West Point psychology professor, and without a doubt the world’s foremost expert on human aggression and violence. The event, hosted by the California Peace Officers Association, was held in the auditorium of a very large community church about 30 miles from San Francisco, and was attended by more than 250 police officers from around the region.
Grossman’s talk spanned myriad topics of vital importance to law enforcement, such as the use of autogenic breathing, surviving gunshot wounds, dealing with survivor guilt following a gun battle, and others. In coming months, I will present a series of articles addressing many of these subjects, but violence among and against children was how the day began, and so it is in this area I will begin my coverage...
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, pictured with PoliceOne Senior Editor Doug Wyllie, spoke before a crowd of more than 250 police officers in an event hosted by the California Peace Officers Association. (PoliceOne image)
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“In 1998,” Grossman said, “school violence claimed what at the time was an all time record number of kids’ lives. In that year there were 35 dead and a quarter of a million serious injuries due to violence in the school. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. But we hear people say, ‘That’s the year Columbine happened, that’s an anomaly.’ Well, in 2004 we had a new all time record — 48 dead in the schools from violence. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. Let’s assign some grades. Put your teacher hat on and give out some grades. What kind of grade do you give the firefighter for keeping kids safe? An ‘A,’ right? Reluctantly, reluctantly, the cops give the firefighters an ‘A,’ right? Danged firefighters, they sleep ‘till they’re hungry and eat ‘till they’re tired. What grade do we get for keeping the kids safe from violence? Come on, what’s our grade? Needs improvement, right?”
Johnny Firefighter, A+ Student
“Why can’t we be like little Johnny Firefighter?” Grossman asked as he prowled the stage. “He’s our A+ student!”
He paused, briefly, and answered with a voice that blew through the hall like thunder, “Denial, denial, denial!”
Grossman commanded, “Look up at the ceiling! See all those sprinklers up there? They’re hard to spot — they’re painted black — but they’re there. While you’re looking, look at the material the ceiling is made of. You know that that stuff was selected because it’s fire-retardant. Hooah? Now look over there above the door — you see that fire exit sign? That’s not just any fire exit sign — that’s a ‘battery-backup-when-the-world-ends-it-will-still-be-lit’ fire exit sign. Hooah?”
Walking from the stage toward a nearby fire exit and exterior wall, Grossman slammed the palm of his hand against the wall and exclaimed, “Look at these wall boards! They were chosen because they’re what?! Fireproof or fire retardant, hooah? There is not one stinking thing in this room that will burn!”
Pointing around the room as he spoke, Grossman continued, “But you’ve still got those fire sprinklers, those fire exit signs, fire hydrants outside, and fire trucks nearby! Are these fire guys crazy? Are these fire guys paranoid? NO! This fire guy is our A+ student! Because this fire guy has redundant, overlapping layers of protection, not a single kid has been killed by school fire in the last 50 years!
“But you try to prepare for violence — the thing much more likely to kill our kids in schools, the thing hundreds of times more likely to kill our kids in schools — and people think you’re paranoid. They think you’re crazy. ...They’re in denial.”
Teaching the Teachers
The challenge for law enforcement agencies and officers, then, is to overcome not only the attacks taking place in schools, but to first overcome the denial in the minds of mayors, city councils, school administrators, and parents. Grossman said that agencies and officers, although facing an uphill slog against the denial of the general public, must diligently work toward increasing understanding among the sheep that the wolves are coming for their children. Police officers must train and drill with teachers, not only so responding officers are intimately familiar with the facilities, but so that teachers know what they can do in the event of an attack.
“Come with me to the library at Columbine High School,” Grossman said. “The teacher in the library at Columbine High School spent her professional lifetime preparing for a fire, and we can all agree if there had been a fire in that library, that teacher would have instinctively, reflexively known what to do. But the thing most likely to kill her kids — the thing hundreds of times more likely to kill her kids, the teacher didn’t have a clue what to do. She should have put those kids in the librarian’s office but she didn’t know that. So she did the worst thing possible — she tried to secure her kids in an un-securable location. She told the kids to hide in the library — a library that has plate glass windows for walls. It’s an aquarium, it’s a fish bowl. She told the kids to hide in a fishbowl. What did those killers see? They saw targets. They saw fish in a fish bowl.”
Grossman said that if the school administrators at Columbine had spent a fraction of the money they’d spent preparing for fire — if the teachers there had spent a fraction of the time they spent preparing for fire — doing lockdown drills and talking with local law enforcers about the violent dangers they face, the outcome that day may have been different.
Rhetorically he asked the assembled cops, “If somebody had spent five minutes telling that teacher what to do, do you think lives would have been saved at Columbine?”
Arming Campus Cops is Elementary
Nearly two years ago, I wrote an article called Arming campus cops is elementary. Not surprisingly, Grossman agrees with that hypothesis.
“Never call an unarmed man ‘security’,” Grossman said.
“Call him ‘run-like-hell-when-the-man-with-the-gun-shows-up’ but never call an unarmed man security. Imagine if someone said, ‘I want a trained fire professional on site. I want a fire hat, I want a fire uniform, I want a fire badge. But! No fire extinguishers in this building. No fire hoses. The hat, the badge, the uniform — that will keep us safe — but we have no need for fire extinguishers.’ Well, that would be insane. It is equally insane, delusional, legally liable, to say, ‘I want a trained security professional on site. I want a security hat, I want a security uniform, and I want a security badge, but I don’t want a gun.’ It’s not the hat, the uniform, or the badge. It’s the tools in the hands of a trained professional that keeps us safe.
“Our problem is not money,” said Grossman. “It is denial.”
Grossman said (and most cops agree) that many of the most important things we can do to protect our kids would cost us nothing or next-to-nothing.
Grossman’s Five D’s
In the next installment of this series, I will explore what follows in much greater detail, but for now, let’s contemplate the following outline and summary of Dave Grossman’s “Five D’s.” While you do, I encourage you to add in the comments area below your suggestions to address, and expand upon, these ideas.
1. Denial — Denial is the enemy and it has no survival value, said Grossman.
2. Deter — Put police officers in schools, because with just one officer assigned to a school, the probability of a mass murder in that school drops to almost zero
3. Detect — We’re talking about plain old fashioned police work here. The ultimate achievement for law enforcement is the crime that didn’t happen, so giving teachers and administrators regular access to cops is paramount.
4. Delay — Various simple mechanisms can be used by teachers and cops to put time and distance between the killers and the kids.
a. Ensure that the school/classroom have just a single point of entry. Simply locking the back door helps create a hard target.
b. Conduct your active shooter drills within (and in partnership with) the schools in your city so teachers know how to respond, and know what it looks like when you do your response.
5. Destroy — Police officers and agencies should consider the following:
a. Carry off duty. No one would tell a firefighter who has a fire extinguisher in his trunk that he’s crazy or paranoid.
b. Equip every cop in America with a patrol rifle. One chief of police, upon getting rifles for all his officers once said, “If an active killer strikes in my town, the response time will be measured in feet per second.”
c. Put smoke grenades in the trunk of every cop car in America. Any infantryman who needs to attack across open terrain or perform a rescue under fire deploys a smoke grenade. A fire extinguisher will do a decent job in some cases, but a smoke grenade is designed to perform the function.
d. Have a “go-to-war bag” filled with lots of loaded magazines and supplies for tactical combat casualty care.
e. Use helicopters. Somewhere in your county you probably have one or more of the following: medivac, media, private, national guard, coast guard rotors.
f. Employ the crew-served, continuous-feed, weapon you already have available to you (a firehouse) by integrating the fire service into your active shooter training. It is virtually impossible for a killer to put well-placed shots on target while also being blasted with water at 300 pounds per square inch.
g. Armed citizens can help. Think United 93. Whatever your personal take on gun control, it is all but certain that a killer set on killing is more likely to attack a target where the citizens are unarmed, rather than one where they are likely to encounter an armed citizen response.
Coming Soon: External Threats
Today we must not only prepare for juvenile mass murder, something that had never happened in human history until only recently, but we also must prepare for the external threat. Islamist fanatics have slaughtered children in their own religion — they have killed wantonly, mercilessly, and without regard for repercussion or regret of any kind. What do you think they’d think of killing our kids?
“Eight years ago they came and killed 3,000 of our citizens. Do we know what they’re going to do next? No! But one thing they’ve done in every country they’ve messed with is killing kids in schools.”
The latest al Qaeda charter states that “children are noble targets” and Osama bin Laden himself has said that “Russia is a preview for what we will do to America.”
What happened in Russia that we need to be concerned with in this context? In the town of Beslan on September 1, 2004 — the very day on which children across that country merrily make their return to school after the long summer break — radical Islamist terrorists from Chechnya took more than 1,000 teachers, mothers, and children hostage. When the three-day siege was over, more than 300 hostages had been killed, more than half of whom were children.
“If I could tackle every American and make them read one book to help them understand the terrorist’s plan, it would be Terror at Beslan by John Giduck. Beslan was just a dress rehearsal for what they’re planning to do to the United States.”
A future feature will focus solely on the issue of the terror threats against American schools, but for the time being consider this: There are almost a half a million school busses in America — it would require every enlisted person and every officer in the entire Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps combined to put just one armed guard on every school bus in the country.
As a country and as a culture, the level of protection Americans afford our kids against violence is nothing near what we do to protect them from fire. Grossman is correct: Denial is the enemy. We must prepare for violence like the firefighter prepares for fire. And we must do that today.
F34R likes this post
is the forum really slow for anyone else? strange, seems pretty inactive tooGot YLOD? In the UK? I'll buy it off you.
sure, it'll go wrong again, we're talking about people, not fire. fire isn't resourceful or vengeful. its a useful analogy so long as you don't use it to ignore other ways of applying common sense. and it strikes me that perhaps it would be. in reality its just about limiting the chances of disaster, and that needs a kitchen sink approach. but as with everything, common sense takes a back seat in politics to those that feel aggreived about their rights and manage to shout the loudest.
Last edited by J3ff3; 12-17-2012 at 04:36.Got YLOD? In the UK? I'll buy it off you.
Last edited by J3ff3; 12-17-2012 at 04:41.Got YLOD? In the UK? I'll buy it off you.
I cop with a radio can get the response time of help down a great deal instead of a phone call to 911, info taken, then passed on through the radio system. If resource A, from the elem school has a threat, all she has to do is yell HELP on the radio. We all know where she's at, and if we don't, the 800mhz radios ID who it is automatically, and where her position is. We are there. Delay, Deter, and Destroy.. three words that are drilled into us during our training and scenarios, etc.
We didn't have this training before Columbine, for sure. That's why they sat outside while all these kids were killed there. Now, if that happens... the first one on scene waits about thirty seconds for another officer... if that person doesn't get there in half min., I go it alone, and go as fast as I can with the M4 at the ready until I find the suspect, and put him down. Period.
Last edited by F34R; 12-17-2012 at 04:48.
which state is this?
besides, it kind of misses the point - reducing on campus gun crime, which is obviously a good thing, is just that - a reduction - it isn't the end of the discussion at school or elsewhere. on a bus? at the mall? you haven't solved the issue if a kid is $#@!ed in the head and wants revenge. you've helped massively, and as i said i'm not against armed officers in schools, but why not consider other ways of preventing childeren from killing others, in addition? $#@! it, if you want guns in schools do what israel does and arm the teachers. better than an SRO.
it shouldn't really be the end of the discussion. at the end of the day a child should find it incredibly hard to get anywhere near a gun and THEN find it incredibly hard to use it.
Last edited by J3ff3; 12-17-2012 at 05:48.Got YLOD? In the UK? I'll buy it off you.
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OMG! I can't believe I forgot this reference. Well, I was still a kid myself or in my teens at the time but anyway There was something that happend similar to this in Jonesboro, Arkansas in the 90's. From what I remember the kid involved went to juvenile jail. When he was released years later, and also a legal adult the SOB got pulled over by law enforcement in my area and he had several guns with him in the vehicle he was driving. I know one of the guys that was at the traffic stop and he said they looked for every excuse to nail him with some serious charges but couldn't do anything because all that stuff happend when he was a juvenile and his records were sealed. So it's like it never happend.
The point is, at that time NO ONE would have ever thought something like that would have happend. Between that time and now, there have been more accounts of things like this. But each new account seems to be more and more extreme.
I think there is something to taking away guns from STUPID people, but they should take steps to identify them before. This idiot had access to guns that were not locked away properly. But how would someone know? The reports as of the last time I checked were that he did not give off any indication or signs of being someone that would do this. I wonder if this is just an instance of people just being plain evil for no reason at all other than that. That sends chills down my spine to think about that he could have not even had a reason. He just WANTED to do it, for the shock factor. That is just pure speculation on my part.
But banning guns won't stop people. You can't do any harm without bullets. Maby restricting bullets and materials to make bullets, such as gunpowder or tools to make your own? Guns need bullets to do ANY damage at all, otherwise it's just a piece of metal and polymer.
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I'd really like to know what this $#@!suckers motive was, just caught the news reporter say this morning that it was his old school? If so, he have some sort of beef with the school psychiatrist?
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To all who quoted me before the following quote in this post: I'm not changing my stance. A kid can be brought up to be mature enough to handle a weapon in public places such as schools. There just has to be a will to educate them and bring them up right.
$Greatness$ likes this post
i really don't see why this should be any different.
** edit: my friend was very good at driving. had been since 14 round a field, he had great car control. but he failed his test 6 times (its harder here, we have circles in the middle of our roads). it wasn't that he was useless with the vehicle, it was his attitude when driving. too fast, too confident, too at ease with what he was doing. and that sort of judgement should translate to guns. you can have grown up around them, shot them all your life, but if you are so familiar with them that you don't show them the proper respect - for example locking them away, then perhaps you shouldn't have one, or should have to be penelised or re-educated in their use.
Last edited by J3ff3; 12-17-2012 at 15:23.Got YLOD? In the UK? I'll buy it off you.
Oh and j33fe in the UK its only hunting rifles and the odd shotgun that are legal. Can really only use them in specific places with others to hunt animals, or shoot foxes that go onto your land.
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A guy in los Angeles threatened a elementary school and guns were recovered
Link. http://rt.com/usa/news/police-elemen...s-angeles-230/Plato and Aristotle, a detail of The School of Athens, a fresco by Raphael. Aristotle gestures to the earth, representing his belief in knowledge
Anybody who argues gun control doesn't understand people will be able to get guns whether or not they are legal or not
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Well it's safe to say man that's so funny. " safe to say " lol
Anyway.. it will be up to who ever has the balls to ban guns or a epic tragedy to make guns banned for goodPlato and Aristotle, a detail of The School of Athens, a fresco by Raphael. Aristotle gestures to the earth, representing his belief in knowledge
it really isn't that complicated. laws are sensible counter balance to rights, and often enable them. why? because your right by its very nature affects the liberty and rights of others.
it really isn't, or shouldn't be, as simple as "the founding fathers said this, therefore it is my unalienable right to do it". this is especially true when you look at WHY the second amendment was created. you have laws to make rights applicable to modern environments.
is legal in the uk.
Last edited by J3ff3; 12-17-2012 at 21:43.Got YLOD? In the UK? I'll buy it off you.
Admartian likes this post
The founders may have crafted the constitution with the laws in other countries in mind, but they saw the flaws in those other laws and used them as an example to avoid the shortcomings of those laws.
Perhaps you need to read our second amendment again:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, [B]the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed[/B].
In addition it has been reaffirmed by our supreme court in the Heller case.
b. “Keep and bear Arms.” We move now from the
holder of the right—“the people”—to the substance of the
right: “to keep and bear Arms.”
Before addressing the verbs “keep” and “bear,” we interpret
their object: “Arms.” The 18th-century meaning is no
different from the meaning today. The 1773 edition of
Samuel Johnson’s dictionary defined “arms” as “weapons
of offence, or armour of defence.” 1 Dictionary of the
English Language 107 (4th ed.) (hereinafter Johnson).
Timothy Cunningham’s important 1771 legal dictionary
defined “arms” as “any thing that a man wears for his
defence, or takes into his hands, or useth in wrath to cast
at or strike another.” 1 A New and Complete Law Dictionary
(1771); see also N. Webster, American Dictionary
of the English Language (182 (reprinted 1989) (hereinafter
8 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
The term was applied, then as now, to weapons that
were not specifically designed for military use and were
not employed in a military capacity. For instance, Cunningham’s
legal dictionary gave as an example of usage:
“Servants and labourers shall use bows and arrows on
Sundays, &c. and not bear other arms.” See also, e.g., An
Act for the trial of Negroes, 1797 Del. Laws ch. XLIII, §6,
p. 104, in 1 First Laws of the State of Delaware 102, 104
(J. Cushing ed. 1981 (pt. 1)); see generally State v. Duke,
42 Tex. 455, 458 (1874) (citing decisions of state courts
construing “arms”). Although one founding-era thesaurus
limited “arms” (as opposed to “weapons”) to “instruments
of offence generally made use of in war,” even that source
stated that all firearms constituted “arms.” 1 J. Trusler,
The Distinction Between Words Esteemed Synonymous in
the English Language 37 (1794) (emphasis added).
Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous,
that only those arms in existence in the 18th century
are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret
constitutional rights that way. Just as the First
Amendment protects modern forms of communications,
e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844,
849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern
forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27,
35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima
facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms,
even those that were not in existence at the time of the
I suggest you thoroughly read the decision of our supreme court in the Heller and McDonald cases and revise your statements.
As to the picture I posted. That firearm is completely legal in the UK to own and use (for example target shooting). It is manufactured by a UK company. It has been modified to comply with UK laws.
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