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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post


    For reference:
    Hes quoting on rumors...

    Note I'm unfortunately an outsider this round, I don't actually know what is in either platform....
    And then some back tracking....

    Edit: the reason for the pre-GCN GPU guess for 720, is because of rumors from SemiAccurate on tape out date, and a guess, based on how rumors have changed, that Sony decided to change dGPU based on early complaints of performance after the first rounds of rumors. Certainly it would be much better for developers building portable games if both consoles are GCN vs one pre-GCN.

    Edit: ran out of popcorn reading the associated NeoGaf thread. The rumors clearly state 720 as GCN, and a pair of GCN consoles is what I'm hoping for, in case that was not clear.
    nufff said.
    Last edited by mynd; 01-28-2013 at 07:16.

  2. #27
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    It's weird in these rumor threads. I'm not specifically talking about this site but everywhere that these rumors are being talked about.

    When the 720 was rumored to be more powerful, everything was cool and fine. When the ps4 became more powerful than the 720(with these rumors) it became such a big $#@!in problem with these guys that prefer MS's console. It's to the point the threads aren't interesting to read. The guys in the know with the 720 don't know $#@! about the ps4 other than what's been leaked already but they speak on it as if they do while at the same time saying they don't know $#@!(stupid and confusing right? Exactly!) and the ones in the know about the ps4 aren't saying a damn thing.

    I just can't wait for these things to be revealed. I'm sick of all this $#@!. Ultimately, it's going to come down to the proof being in the pudding aka next gen games running on these consoles. No matter which console is stronger, neither will have games that simply can't run on the other console(besides taking a graphical hit).
    Last edited by Two4DaMoney; 01-28-2013 at 09:07.

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  3. #28
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    Virtual $#@! measuring.

    Anyone who is really in the know is
    simply not going to talk. There are NDA's which would blacklist them from the industry.
    I gave up on these rumours pretty quickly, none of it really gels on either side of the fence. And at the end of the day what is the point. It is all imaginary untill we see real stuff.

    And as i have repeatedly said, its going to come down to how they are put together. Something none of these rumours every seem to have an answer for.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    It's weird in these rumor threads. I'm not specifically talking about this site but everywhere that these rumors are being talked about.

    When the 720 was rumored to be more powerful, everything was cool and fine. When the ps4 became more powerful than the 720(with these rumors) it became such a big $#@!in problem with these guys that prefer MS's console. It's to the point the threads aren't interesting to read. The guys in the know with the 720 don't know $#@! about the ps4 other than what's been leaked already but they speak on it as if they do while at the same time saying they don't know $#@!(stupid and confusing right? Exactly!) and the ones in the know about the ps4 aren't saying a damn thing.

    I just can't wait for these things to be revealed. I'm sick of all this $#@!. Ultimately, it's going to come down to the proof being in the pudding aka next gen games running on these consoles. No matter which console is stronger, neither will have games that simply can't run on the other console(besides taking a graphical hit).
    Watch how even when they are announced there will be arguments on which is better 'in real life scenarios' and more 'practical design'.

    Prepare, Consoles wars are coming

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  6. #30
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    Yes they are.


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  7. #31
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    A new supposed "leak"

    CPU:

    Orbis contains eight Jaguar cores at 1.6 Ghz, arranged as two “clusters”
    Each cluster contains 4 cores and a shared 2MB L2 cache
    256-bit SIMD operations, 128-bit SIMD ALU
    SSE up to SSE4, as well as Advanced Vector Extensions (AVX)
    One hardware thread per core
    Decodes, executes and retires at up to two intructions/cycle
    Out of order execution
    Per-core dedicated L1-I and L1-D cache (32Kb each)
    Two pipes per core yield 12,8 GFlops performance
    102.4 GFlops for system


    GPU:

    GPU is based on AMD’s “R10XX” (Southern Islands) architecture
    DirectX 11.1+ feature set
    Liverpool is an enhanced version of the architecture
    18 Compute Units (CUs)
    Hardware balanced at 14 CUs
    Shared 512 KB of read/write L2 cache
    800 Mhz
    1.843 Tflops, 922 GigaOps/s
    Dual shader engines
    18 texture units
    8 Render backends


    Memory:

    4 GB unified system memory, 176 GB/s
    3.5 available to games (estimate)


    Storage:

    - High speed Blu-ray drive

    single layer (25 GB) or dual layer (50 GB) discs
    Partial constant angular velocity (PCAV)
    Outer half of disc 6x (27 MB/s)
    Inner half varies, 3.3x to 6x


    - Internal mass storage

    One SKU at launch: 500 GB HDD
    There may also be a Flash drive SKU in the future


    Networking:

    1 Gb/s Ethernet, 802.11b/g/n WIFI, and Bluetooth


    Peripherals:

    Evolved Dualshock controller
    Dual Camera
    Move controller


    Extra:

    Audio Processor (ACP)
    Video encode and decode (VCE/UVD) units
    Display ScanOut Engine (DCE)
    Zlib Decompression Hardware
    http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-orbis-unveiled/

  8. #32
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    ^ yeah I posted it in the orbis thread. Nothing new.
    I was hoping for BC details. A guy on gaf had a really good post on why its possible
    In the DF article it mentions the following:

    "Paired up with the eight AMD cores, we find a bespoke GPU-like "Compute" module, designed to ease the burden on certain operations - physics calculations are a good example of traditional CPU work that are often hived off to GPU cores."

    If it really is "paired up" to the CPU, then it confirms a theory that Jeff_Rigby has had for several months.

    Reading a 2010 patent by Sony (http://www.google.com/patents/US20100312969) shows a chip that resembles Toshiba's "SpursEngine." In this patent, they detail a "Processing Element" (PE) that contains 1 PPU and 4 SPE's. In short, "half of a Cell."

    The interesting thing about this patent, is that this PE can be hooked up to as many as one pleases. Hooking two together will create a "Cell equivalent." Now, one might ask, how much would that cost?" If integrated into the Jaguar APU, very little.

    How? AMD Crossbar Switch.

    The AMD solution currently rumored in the Orbis would have 4 "slots" on the crossbar to integrate their chips. As of current, Orbis has 8 Jaguar cores. There are 4 cores per Jaguar module. That means 2 slots take up the Crossbar, leaving 2 more opened. Just enough for two PE's. 8 Jaguar cores total with 2 PPU's and 8 SPU's.

    Another possible configuration that Jeff mentions is 4 Steamroller cores (as 2 comes in each module), with the additional 2 PE's attached, but I digress.

    In the patent there is this quote.

    "The local PE bus can have, e.g., a conventional architecture or can be implemented as a packet-switched network."

    This fits in-line perfectly with AMD's solution.

    To further solidify this theory, we take a look at this quote:

    "The PE is closely associated with a shared (main) memory through a high bandwidth memory connection. Although the memory preferably is a dynamic random access memory (DRAM), the memory could be implemented using other means, e.g. as a static random access memory (SRAM), a magnetic random access memory (MRAM), an optical memory, or a holographic memory, etc."

    This allows any implementation of memory as the engineers see fit. Sony is no longer tied down to the use of XDR ram for these PE's. The GDDR5 bandwidth would satisfy the needs of the SPE's to make sure they aren't data starved.

    What does this all mean?

    This means several things:

    Backwards compatibility is within reach, adding the two PE's will create an environment where they can emulate the Cell. The RSX can be emulated by the GPU, and the GDDR5 bandwidth is sufficient.

    PS4 functions: As they mentioned in the article, it will take "GPU-like" functions. Why use the SPE's over conventional GPU cores? SPE's are much faster. They tackle GPU tasks in a CPU manner. Low core count, high speed. These functions include DSP, a feature that Sony has yet to address in the Orbis, physics tasks, and video processing (encoding/decoding). They can add all these features to the Orbis without having the GPU take a hit and sacrificing GPU tasks.
    Last edited by Itachi; 01-28-2013 at 17:36.

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  10. #33
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    All speculation of which is the more powerful system will again probably mean nothing substantive (like the stupid PS3/XBox360 arguments). And as before, the 'easier to code for console' will get more games and get them faster. Looking at the supposed specs of the 2 machines, it seems clear that the one with apparently more RAM (Durango) will be favored by game developers. Sony, up the memory or else.

  11. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTurkin View Post
    All speculation of which is the more powerful system will again probably mean nothing substantive (like the stupid PS3/XBox360 arguments). And as before, the 'easier to code for console' will get more games and get them faster. Looking at the supposed specs of the 2 machines, it seems clear that the one with apparently more RAM (Durango) will be favored by game developers. Sony, up the memory or else.
    posts above will suggest otherwise. I don't care what people think of Timothy Lottes, the fact is that he IS a dev and prefers bandwidth

  12. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    posts above will suggest otherwise. I don't care what people think of Timothy Lottes, the fact is that he IS a dev and prefers bandwidth
    So what? I'm a dev and I wouldn't speculate on imaginary performance until Ive seen the full internal specs of these machines.

  13. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    So what? I'm a dev and I wouldn't speculate on imaginary performance until Ive seen the full internal specs of these machines.
    I'm talking about amount vs bandwidth exclusively. I know that is a comparison which is very difficult to make in a vacuum, but the point is that there are supporters on either side, so saying that either MS or Sony 'better increase amount/bandwidth or else....' is wrong

  14. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    I'm talking about amount vs bandwidth exclusively. I know that is a comparison which is very difficult to make in a vacuum, but the point is that there are supporters on either side, so saying that either MS or Sony 'better increase amount/bandwidth or else....' is wrong
    Its not only wrong, its a complete waste of time.

    No one should be passing judgement on these machines at this point.

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  16. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Its not only wrong, its a complete waste of time.

    No one should be passing judgement on these machines at this point.
    hey mynd, when the PS3 released, a member on the forums put up a huge post about the intricacies and bottlenecks of the ps3 system. as well as its strengths.

    i rekon you should do the same when the next round comes about. if you have the time of course
    i quite enjoyed the read of the PS3 system, and in some ways, it helped in understanding what to expect from this gen.

    maybe cuguy could bring back the orange usertitles too?

    regardless of rumor or fact, your posts are always good to read.
    Sig courtesy of the_jim


  17. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Its not only wrong, its a complete waste of time.

    No one should be passing judgement on these machines at this point.
    And its amusing to see how many in this section are doing just that. They really want their piece of plastic to win or a company they have hatred for be a failure. They know who they are. Cant wait to get some real info instead of just rumors from supposed "insiders" and "anonymous" sources.

  18. #40
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    Dbl post. Great even tap talk screws up now.
    Last edited by mynd; 01-29-2013 at 07:17.

  19. #41
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    Ill be having good hard look once the specs are released, and when i say specs full specs, not bullet points.
    It is going to be so important "how" these components are glued together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Ill be having good hard look once the specs are released, and when i say specs full specs, not bullet points.
    It is going to be so important "how" these components are glued together.
    I look forward to your input when that happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    So what? I'm a dev and I wouldn't speculate on imaginary performance until Ive seen the full internal specs of these machines.
    You´re a dev ? Cool ! What games have you been involved in ?

  22. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by croma View Post
    You´re a dev ? Cool ! What games have you been involved in ?
    Indie, you can see some of our very old stuff here... Www.myndspy.com

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    Yeah, but the PS3 was supposed to be a more powerful system than the XBox360. However, most games appeared to be smoother on XBox, because it was easier to program. The rumored specs of both machines look very similar, so all these apparent great improvements in Orbis that need specialized programming skills will again go to waste.

    As others have said though, we are all pissing in the wind for now.

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  25. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTurkin View Post
    Yeah, but the PS3 was supposed to be a more powerful system than the XBox360. However, most games appeared to be smoother on XBox, because it was easier to program. The rumored specs of both machines look very similar, so all these apparent great improvements in Orbis that need specialized programming skills will again go to waste.

    As others have said though, we are all pissing in the wind for now.
    Again we will see the first party studios mainly take advantage of the ps4 fully, provide some incredible games.

    I am sure if games use something like on average 3 to 4 GB of ram then i am sure the faster SONY ran will provide better frames per second ( thing is what i keep hearing from others) and with the 4 cpu thing from the GPU being used for the cpu could make other types of simulation better ( clothes, water, physx etc) and would offload some of the cpu usage or something.

  26. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LfCpS3 View Post
    Again we will see the first party studios mainly take advantage of the ps4 fully, provide some incredible games.

    I am sure if games use something like on average 3 to 4 GB of ram then i am sure the faster SONY ran will provide better frames per second ( thing is what i keep hearing from others) and with the 4 cpu thing from the GPU being used for the cpu could make other types of simulation better ( clothes, water, physx etc) and would offload some of the cpu usage or something.
    plus better AA since that requires high bandwidth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LfCpS3 View Post
    I am sure if games use something like on average 3 to 4 GB of ram then i am sure the faster SONY ran will provide better frames per second ( thing is what i keep hearing from others) and with the 4 cpu thing from the GPU being used for the cpu could make other types of simulation better ( clothes, water, physx etc) and would offload some of the cpu usage or something.
    In theory, you are probably right. However, if the rumored specs are accurate (big ifs I know, but the internet is a good place for idle speculation) then developers will prefer Durango because of the extra memory. Fancy tricks that Orbis may be able to do will fall by the wayside. We'll again only see a handful of titles properly exploiting the machine, and many other poorly optimized multi-console games. That seems like a waste to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTurkin View Post
    In theory, you are probably right. However, if the rumored specs are accurate (big ifs I know, but the internet is a good place for idle speculation) then developers will prefer Durango because of the extra memory. Fancy tricks that Orbis may be able to do will fall by the wayside. We'll again only see a handful of titles properly exploiting the machine, and many other poorly optimized multi-console games. That seems like a waste to me.
    Well, we will have to wait and see how it goes, could go either way if you ask me.

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  30. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    TXAA has been around since 1983.
    Both are post processing effects, in which you act on 2d textures, at most its HLSL based on the pixel shader (clearly).
    I would love to see early papers on TXAA, also it doesn't operate on normal image and needs MSAA subsamples.
    It isn't post AA, but a custom resolve for a MSAA.
    Last edited by jlippone; 01-30-2013 at 06:26.
    'no, no one in their sane mind uses OpenGL on PS3' - Repi
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