Timothy Lottes, the creator of FXAA, dishes on PS4's potential

[mynd]

For reference:

Hes quoting on rumors...

Note I'm unfortunately an outsider this round, I don't actually know what is in either platform....

And then some back tracking....

Edit: the reason for the pre-GCN GPU guess for 720, is because of rumors from SemiAccurate on tape out date, and a guess, based on how rumors have changed, that Sony decided to change dGPU based on early complaints of performance after the first rounds of rumors. Certainly it would be much better for developers building portable games if both consoles are GCN vs one pre-GCN.

Edit: ran out of popcorn reading the associated NeoGaf thread. The rumors clearly state 720 as GCN, and a pair of GCN consoles is what I'm hoping for, in case that was not clear.

nufff said.

[Two4DaMoney]

It's weird in these rumor threads. I'm not specifically talking about this site but everywhere that these rumors are being talked about.

When the 720 was rumored to be more powerful, everything was cool and fine. When the ps4 became more powerful than the 720(with these rumors) it became such a big fuckin problem with these guys that prefer MS's console. It's to the point the threads aren't interesting to read. The guys in the know with the 720 don't know shit about the ps4 other than what's been leaked already but they speak on it as if they do while at the same time saying they don't know shit(stupid and confusing right? Exactly!) and the ones in the know about the ps4 aren't saying a damn thing.

I just can't wait for these things to be revealed. I'm sick of all this shit. Ultimately, it's going to come down to the proof being in the pudding aka next gen games running on these consoles. No matter which console is stronger, neither will have games that simply can't run on the other console(besides taking a graphical hit).

[mynd]

Virtual dick measuring.

Anyone who is really in the know is
simply not going to talk. There are NDA's which would blacklist them from the industry.
I gave up on these rumours pretty quickly, none of it really gels on either side of the fence. And at the end of the day what is the point. It is all imaginary untill we see real stuff.

And as i have repeatedly said, its going to come down to how they are put together. Something none of these rumours every seem to have an answer for.

[itachi73378]

It's weird in these rumor threads. I'm not specifically talking about this site but everywhere that these rumors are being talked about.

When the 720 was rumored to be more powerful, everything was cool and fine. When the ps4 became more powerful than the 720(with these rumors) it became such a big fuckin problem with these guys that prefer MS's console. It's to the point the threads aren't interesting to read. The guys in the know with the 720 don't know shit about the ps4 other than what's been leaked already but they speak on it as if they do while at the same time saying they don't know shit(stupid and confusing right? Exactly!) and the ones in the know about the ps4 aren't saying a damn thing.

I just can't wait for these things to be revealed. I'm sick of all this shit. Ultimately, it's going to come down to the proof being in the pudding aka next gen games running on these consoles. No matter which console is stronger, neither will have games that simply can't run on the other console(besides taking a graphical hit).

Watch how even when they are announced there will be arguments on which is better 'in real life scenarios' and more 'practical design'.

Prepare, Consoles wars are coming

[chrisw26308]

Yes they are.


Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

[MGSfan]

A new supposed "leak"

CPU:

Orbis contains eight Jaguar cores at 1.6 Ghz, arranged as two “clusters”
Each cluster contains 4 cores and a shared 2MB L2 cache
256-bit SIMD operations, 128-bit SIMD ALU
SSE up to SSE4, as well as Advanced Vector Extensions (AVX)
One hardware thread per core
Decodes, executes and retires at up to two intructions/cycle
Out of order execution
Per-core dedicated L1-I and L1-D cache (32Kb each)
Two pipes per core yield 12,8 GFlops performance
102.4 GFlops for system


GPU:

GPU is based on AMD’s “R10XX” (Southern Islands) architecture
DirectX 11.1+ feature set
Liverpool is an enhanced version of the architecture
18 Compute Units (CUs)
Hardware balanced at 14 CUs
Shared 512 KB of read/write L2 cache
800 Mhz
1.843 Tflops, 922 GigaOps/s
Dual shader engines
18 texture units
8 Render backends


Memory:

4 GB unified system memory, 176 GB/s
3.5 available to games (estimate)


Storage:

- High speed Blu-ray drive

single layer (25 GB) or dual layer (50 GB) discs
Partial constant angular velocity (PCAV)
Outer half of disc 6x (27 MB/s)
Inner half varies, 3.3x to 6x


- Internal mass storage

One SKU at launch: 500 GB HDD
There may also be a Flash drive SKU in the future


Networking:

1 Gb/s Ethernet, 802.11b/g/n WIFI, and Bluetooth


Peripherals:

Evolved Dualshock controller
Dual Camera
Move controller


Extra:

Audio Processor (ACP)
Video encode and decode (VCE/UVD) units
Display ScanOut Engine (DCE)
Zlib Decompression Hardware

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-orbis-unveiled/

[itachi73378]

^ yeah I posted it in the orbis thread. Nothing new.
I was hoping for BC details. A guy on gaf had a really good post on why its possible

In the DF article it mentions the following:

"Paired up with the eight AMD cores, we find a bespoke GPU-like "Compute" module, designed to ease the burden on certain operations - physics calculations are a good example of traditional CPU work that are often hived off to GPU cores."

If it really is "paired up" to the CPU, then it confirms a theory that Jeff_Rigby has had for several months.

Reading a 2010 patent by Sony (http://www.google.com/patents/US20100312969) shows a chip that resembles Toshiba's "SpursEngine." In this patent, they detail a "Processing Element" (PE) that contains 1 PPU and 4 SPE's. In short, "half of a Cell."

The interesting thing about this patent, is that this PE can be hooked up to as many as one pleases. Hooking two together will create a "Cell equivalent." Now, one might ask, how much would that cost?" If integrated into the Jaguar APU, very little.

How? AMD Crossbar Switch.

The AMD solution currently rumored in the Orbis would have 4 "slots" on the crossbar to integrate their chips. As of current, Orbis has 8 Jaguar cores. There are 4 cores per Jaguar module. That means 2 slots take up the Crossbar, leaving 2 more opened. Just enough for two PE's. 8 Jaguar cores total with 2 PPU's and 8 SPU's.

Another possible configuration that Jeff mentions is 4 Steamroller cores (as 2 comes in each module), with the additional 2 PE's attached, but I digress.

In the patent there is this quote.

"The local PE bus can have, e.g., a conventional architecture or can be implemented as a packet-switched network."

This fits in-line perfectly with AMD's solution.

To further solidify this theory, we take a look at this quote:

"The PE is closely associated with a shared (main) memory through a high bandwidth memory connection. Although the memory preferably is a dynamic random access memory (DRAM), the memory could be implemented using other means, e.g. as a static random access memory (SRAM), a magnetic random access memory (MRAM), an optical memory, or a holographic memory, etc."

This allows any implementation of memory as the engineers see fit. Sony is no longer tied down to the use of XDR ram for these PE's. The GDDR5 bandwidth would satisfy the needs of the SPE's to make sure they aren't data starved.

What does this all mean?

This means several things:

Backwards compatibility is within reach, adding the two PE's will create an environment where they can emulate the Cell. The RSX can be emulated by the GPU, and the GDDR5 bandwidth is sufficient.

PS4 functions: As they mentioned in the article, it will take "GPU-like" functions. Why use the SPE's over conventional GPU cores? SPE's are much faster. They tackle GPU tasks in a CPU manner. Low core count, high speed. These functions include DSP, a feature that Sony has yet to address in the Orbis, physics tasks, and video processing (encoding/decoding). They can add all these features to the Orbis without having the GPU take a hit and sacrificing GPU tasks.

[DTurkin]

All speculation of which is the more powerful system will again probably mean nothing substantive (like the stupid PS3/XBox360 arguments). And as before, the 'easier to code for console' will get more games and get them faster. Looking at the supposed specs of the 2 machines, it seems clear that the one with apparently more RAM (Durango) will be favored by game developers. Sony, up the memory or else.

[itachi73378]

All speculation of which is the more powerful system will again probably mean nothing substantive (like the stupid PS3/XBox360 arguments). And as before, the 'easier to code for console' will get more games and get them faster. Looking at the supposed specs of the 2 machines, it seems clear that the one with apparently more RAM (Durango) will be favored by game developers. Sony, up the memory or else.

posts above will suggest otherwise. I don't care what people think of Timothy Lottes, the fact is that he IS a dev and prefers bandwidth

[mynd]

posts above will suggest otherwise. I don't care what people think of Timothy Lottes, the fact is that he IS a dev and prefers bandwidth

So what? I'm a dev and I wouldn't speculate on imaginary performance until Ive seen the full internal specs of these machines.

[itachi73378]

So what? I'm a dev and I wouldn't speculate on imaginary performance until Ive seen the full internal specs of these machines.

I'm talking about amount vs bandwidth exclusively. I know that is a comparison which is very difficult to make in a vacuum, but the point is that there are supporters on either side, so saying that either MS or Sony 'better increase amount/bandwidth or else....' is wrong

[mynd]

I'm talking about amount vs bandwidth exclusively. I know that is a comparison which is very difficult to make in a vacuum, but the point is that there are supporters on either side, so saying that either MS or Sony 'better increase amount/bandwidth or else....' is wrong

Its not only wrong, its a complete waste of time.

No one should be passing judgement on these machines at this point.

[Fijiandoce]

Its not only wrong, its a complete waste of time.

No one should be passing judgement on these machines at this point.

hey mynd, when the PS3 released, a member on the forums put up a huge post about the intricacies and bottlenecks of the ps3 system. as well as its strengths.

i rekon you should do the same when the next round comes about. if you have the time of course
i quite enjoyed the read of the PS3 system, and in some ways, it helped in understanding what to expect from this gen.

maybe cuguy could bring back the orange usertitles too?

regardless of rumor or fact, your posts are always good to read.

[radgamer420]

Its not only wrong, its a complete waste of time.

No one should be passing judgement on these machines at this point.

And its amusing to see how many in this section are doing just that. They really want their piece of plastic to win or a company they have hatred for be a failure. They know who they are. Cant wait to get some real info instead of just rumors from supposed "insiders" and "anonymous" sources.

[mynd]

Dbl post. Great even tap talk screws up now.

[mynd]

Ill be having good hard look once the specs are released, and when i say specs full specs, not bullet points.
It is going to be so important "how" these components are glued together.

[radgamer420]

Ill be having good hard look once the specs are released, and when i say specs full specs, not bullet points.
It is going to be so important "how" these components are glued together.

I look forward to your input when that happens.

[croma]

So what? I'm a dev and I wouldn't speculate on imaginary performance until Ive seen the full internal specs of these machines.

You´re a dev ? Cool ! What games have you been involved in ?

[mynd]

You´re a dev ? Cool ! What games have you been involved in ?

Indie, you can see some of our very old stuff here... Www.myndspy.com

[DTurkin]

Yeah, but the PS3 was supposed to be a more powerful system than the XBox360. However, most games appeared to be smoother on XBox, because it was easier to program. The rumored specs of both machines look very similar, so all these apparent great improvements in Orbis that need specialized programming skills will again go to waste.

As others have said though, we are all pissing in the wind for now.

[LfCpS3]

Yeah, but the PS3 was supposed to be a more powerful system than the XBox360. However, most games appeared to be smoother on XBox, because it was easier to program. The rumored specs of both machines look very similar, so all these apparent great improvements in Orbis that need specialized programming skills will again go to waste.

As others have said though, we are all pissing in the wind for now.

Again we will see the first party studios mainly take advantage of the ps4 fully, provide some incredible games.

I am sure if games use something like on average 3 to 4 GB of ram then i am sure the faster SONY ran will provide better frames per second ( thing is what i keep hearing from others) and with the 4 cpu thing from the GPU being used for the cpu could make other types of simulation better ( clothes, water, physx etc) and would offload some of the cpu usage or something.

[itachi73378]

Again we will see the first party studios mainly take advantage of the ps4 fully, provide some incredible games.

I am sure if games use something like on average 3 to 4 GB of ram then i am sure the faster SONY ran will provide better frames per second ( thing is what i keep hearing from others) and with the 4 cpu thing from the GPU being used for the cpu could make other types of simulation better ( clothes, water, physx etc) and would offload some of the cpu usage or something.

plus better AA since that requires high bandwidth.

[DTurkin]

I am sure if games use something like on average 3 to 4 GB of ram then i am sure the faster SONY ran will provide better frames per second ( thing is what i keep hearing from others) and with the 4 cpu thing from the GPU being used for the cpu could make other types of simulation better ( clothes, water, physx etc) and would offload some of the cpu usage or something.

In theory, you are probably right. However, if the rumored specs are accurate (big ifs I know, but the internet is a good place for idle speculation) then developers will prefer Durango because of the extra memory. Fancy tricks that Orbis may be able to do will fall by the wayside. We'll again only see a handful of titles properly exploiting the machine, and many other poorly optimized multi-console games. That seems like a waste to me.

[LfCpS3]

In theory, you are probably right. However, if the rumored specs are accurate (big ifs I know, but the internet is a good place for idle speculation) then developers will prefer Durango because of the extra memory. Fancy tricks that Orbis may be able to do will fall by the wayside. We'll again only see a handful of titles properly exploiting the machine, and many other poorly optimized multi-console games. That seems like a waste to me.

Well, we will have to wait and see how it goes, could go either way if you ask me.

[jlippone]

TXAA has been around since 1983.
Both are post processing effects, in which you act on 2d textures, at most its HLSL based on the pixel shader (clearly).

I would love to see early papers on TXAA, also it doesn't operate on normal image and needs MSAA subsamples.
It isn't post AA, but a custom resolve for a MSAA.