Sony: "See the Future" February 20th, 2013

[Nitey]

Yeah BC would be huge for me personally. I have a ton of PS3 content. However, I have no plans to get rid of my PS3 so it wouldnt bother me if it didn't do ps3 bc

[Lefein]

^

That's why I'm not buying into this Gaikai business. They will use that technology, but for what, remains to be seen. People have their game discs. That's where the lion's share of the games are. Not being able to play those games won't really cut it and it is doubtful that the entire back catalog will be available online ever.

[The Sith]

Well, to be fair, Direct X 11 could be their layman term for describing the hardware. After all, things like hardware tesselators are a part of the specification of Direct X 11. It's probably not best to be looking for details where there are none. The software library is hardly a good litmus test of debunking hardware design. Anything other than Direct X 11 GPU technology is irrelevant to the market, ya dig?

No i dont dig.

[Lefein]

No i dont dig.

Let's put it another way.. What IS a gpu supposed to be based on? If you were a card/chip maker like AMD or NVidia, would you put anything on the shelf that isn't based on Direct X? Would you even design anything on paper not based on Direct X?

Because, I can tell you what the people at OpenGL and LibGCM do.. They take what's given to them, and make language for it. To the metal, yo. But MS has standardized and dictated what those cards will do for a very very long time (think, pre-DX7).. So, now do you dig?

[J3ff3]

I think so (or rather I hope so), in fact I wish it offers even disc BC

so what's the score with this?

i've done a little reading and am confused.....

to play a downloaded game (say GoW remakes) the ps4 will *have* to be backward compatible? ie it will have to be able to emulate the ps3/or whatever the game was designed to play on?

seems unlikely that HD remakes will make the transition then....

[TGO]

so what's the score with this?

i've done a little reading and am confused.....

to play a downloaded game (say GoW remakes) the ps4 will *have* to be backward compatible? ie it will have to be able to emulate the ps3/or whatever the game was designed to play on?

seems unlikely that HD remakes will make the transition then....

2 ways, format emulation, ie just the games which would mean emulating all 3 formats ( this is better because it can be mess with but full compatibility is at risk)
Or emulation of the actual system ( like the PS2/PS3 Fat)
It will also have to recognize PS3 data for DLC
I think PSone and PS2 is a easy one, PS3 may require hardware because despite its age Cell is not easy to emulate)
I mean it could be done via brute force (correct me if I'm wrong) but there would be problems if just one thing if different in the process, the PS4 would have to match it for every game, data etc

And no I don't have clue what I'm talking about lol
Sent via Codec

[The Sith]

This event is being held in New York City have anyone heard if they will be doing live streaming.

[ps3freak18]

Im sure there will be streams of it floating around but I can't confirm that?

[TGO]

This event is being held in New York City have anyone heard if they will be doing live streaming.

Its gonna be streamed on PlayStation.blog

Sent via Codec

[Bligmerk]

Let's put it another way.. What IS a gpu supposed to be based on? If you were a card/chip maker like AMD or NVidia, would you put anything on the shelf that isn't based on Direct X? Would you even design anything on paper not based on Direct X?

Because, I can tell you what the people at OpenGL and LibGCM do.. They take what's given to them, and make language for it. To the metal, yo. But MS has standardized and dictated what those cards will do for a very very long time (think, pre-DX7).. So, now do you dig?

Dude, GPU have supported OpenGL and DirectX for a long time. You have to know the microcode ("to the metal"). It's an API, not a language. You have to read the history of OpenGL and DirectX to understand this. Not sure why you are going on about DirectX all of a sudden. Here is an interesting bit, from essentially the father of DirectX, Alex St. John:

You'll never hear this from anybody else because they probably don't know. The original codename for Direct X was the Manhattan Project, because strategically it was an effort to displace Japanese game consoles with PCs and ultimately the Xbox. We called it The Manhattan Project because that was the codename for the program developing the nuclear bomb. We had a glowing radiation logo for the prototype for Direct X, and of course as soon as that got out and the press covered it, it caused a scandal.
The Xbox was code named DirectXbox, but this was shortened to Xbox for its commercial name.

The vomit inducing green is supposed to be radioactive green.

[Blacksite]

Its gonna be streamed on PlayStation.blog

Sent via Codec

Like previous PlayStation Meetings? I'll make this a temporary sticky.

[snooper71]

My opinion theyre not true because that same site said the ps4 will use directx11 when it has been stated that the ps4 will be using open gl4. Theyre going off the prformance of the gpu which has directx11 capabilities.

Capable of using DirectX11 and will be using DirectX11 are not quite the same sentences now are they?

[Lefein]

Dude, GPU have supported OpenGL and DirectX for a long time. You have to know the microcode ("to the metal"). It's an API, not a language. You have to read the history of OpenGL and DirectX to understand this. Not sure why you are going on about DirectX all of a sudden. Here is an interesting bit, from essentially the father of DirectX, Alex St. John:

The vomit inducing green is supposed to be radioactive green.

Okay, I'm going to break this down one last time, and then everyone can do what they want.

Did Windows Vista tout Direct X 10 as a feature of the OS? Yes?
Were Direct X 9 cards capable of Direct X 10 support? No, because the specification to support those features in games were notated by hardware. DX10 cards could play DX9 games all day long, but DX9 cards had no love for activating DX10 features because the hardware wasn't on the card to do it. No ifs ands or buts, no way to hack the card and make it emulate DX10 effects. It was hardware on the card that did it.

Fast Forward to DX11. Now, some DX10 cards can run some DX11 features, but not the full set. My current card, a GeForce 285GTX is a prime example of this. I can run Direct X 11 shaders, but that is it. There's no hardware tesselator, for instance. For all intents and purposes, NVidia could never go back and re-brand the generation of processor in my card and put it in a Direct X 11 branded box because, it isn't a DX11 card.

If you go to the store and buy a DX11 card, it will have all of those features. MS dictates this stuff in their specification and the hardware manufacturers make it so, not the other way around. NVidia wasn't like "Yo dawg, I'm making this 8800 and like, it would be radtacular if DX10 worked on it in Vista." Didn't go down like that.

Whatever flavor of OpenGL and whatnot that runs these cards and their features is dictated by the same process. That's not to say that they don't find better ways or different ways to use it, but the hardware itself that gets cranked out from AMDs and NVidia's foundries all comes from the basic notion that they are compliant with some version of DirectX... or.. it wouldn't sell.

Now, seeing as how I've had to re-explain this simple nuance three times in the same thread, isn't it REALLY likely that whoever wrote whatever article that said the PS4 was using a Direct X 11 card just simply stated it was using a DX 11 card without having to go into a treatise about what version of OpenGL it will use or it's individual hardware features? Just saying. I probably would have done it too. Hell, I'm already regretting weighing in on the subject at all.

Capable of using DirectX11 and will be using DirectX11 are not quite the same sentences now are they?

http://youtu.be/huQoDlHmqrE

..and just to add to that.. There's no point in trying to shave out any of that DX11 compliant hardware, because at some point in the future, you can believe there will be all kinds of stuff utilizing them if there isn't already a mountain of it already. So, it stays!

[mynd]

Funny stuff.

Its pretty simple.

DX capable card does not have to be programmed in DX.


It just has to be capable of doing it.

OpenGL is always behind the curve, it does not drive the industry standards, that's why cards are not rated as being Opengl X capable cards.
This is not cause its worse or anything, but just by its nature of being "open" it has to be ratified.

[itachi73378]

so what's the score with this?

i've done a little reading and am confused.....

to play a downloaded game (say GoW remakes) the ps4 will *have* to be backward compatible? ie it will have to be able to emulate the ps3/or whatever the game was designed to play on?

seems unlikely that HD remakes will make the transition then....

There is literally no difference between a psn digital game and a disc based game in terms of coding. GOW remakes are coded specifically for ps3 so if the ps4 supports that game it has to be backwards compatible for both digital and disc games.

2 ways, format emulation, ie just the games which would mean emulating all 3 formats ( this is better because it can be mess with but full compatibility is at risk)
Or emulation of the actual system ( like the PS2/PS3 Fat)
It will also have to recognize PS3 data for DLC
I think PSone and PS2 is a easy one, PS3 may require hardware because despite its age Cell is not easy to emulate)
I mean it could be done via brute force (correct me if I'm wrong) but there would be problems if just one thing if different in the process, the PS4 would have to match it for every game, data etc

And no I don't have clue what I'm talking about lol
Sent via Codec

Like you said, psOne and ps2 emulation is already perfect on ps3 (about 95%) but ps3 cannot be emulated anywhere near as effectively. There are some emulators out there that can run a handful of games like GOW3 and Uncharted but those require highest end hardware (i7 and 7970 etc) just to manage 720p. Even that is unstable.

So no, brute forcing is not an option. We need the cell inside the ps4 for BC as far as I know

[J3ff3]

There is literally no difference between a psn digital game and a disc based game in terms of coding. GOW remakes are coded specifically for ps3 so if the ps4 supports that game it has to be backwards compatible for both digital and disc games.

Like you said, psOne and ps2 emulation is already perfect on ps3 (about 95%) but ps3 cannot be emulated anywhere near as effectively. There are some emulators out there that can run a handful of games like GOW3 and Uncharted but those require highest end hardware (i7 and 7970 etc) just to manage 720p. Even that is unstable.

So no, brute forcing is not an option. We need the cell inside the ps4 for BC as far as I know

Yeah, I was afraid of that. So its unlikely that the HD remakes that I've got will be playable

[Bligmerk]

Did Windows Vista tout Direct X 10 as a feature of the OS? Yes?
Were Direct X 9 cards capable of Direct X 10 support? No, because the specification to support those features in games were notated by hardware. DX10 cards could play DX9 games all day long, but DX9 cards had no love for activating DX10 features because the hardware wasn't on the card to do it. No ifs ands or buts, no way to hack the card and make it emulate DX10 effects. It was hardware on the card that did it.
!

This was bogus. MS said they couldn't provide DX10 for XP because it was "intimately" tied in to Vista (just like they said Internet Explorer was "intimately" tied in to Windows. They were convicted for lying and viola!, suddenly IE could be separated). This was done for Halo 2 and Crysis, saying Vista was a requirement and they wouldn't even install on XP. Some guys found out there were just some byte blocks preventing this, and yes, DX10 cards were out by then. So, I played Halo 2 and Crysis on XP with DX10 effects. It's been so long ago, the details are fuzzy without doing some research to remember the details, some people were claiming even if you could play Crysis on XP, it didn't have the full range of DX10 effects. All I remember was it was still pretty, back then. Now, MS is saying IE9 is "intimately" tied in to Windows8 and saying DX11 can't be separated from Windows8. I don't know how long this game goes on without appearing totally ludicrous. This actually is no change in policy since the transition from DOS to Windows95, same perception by MS. Video games have been a huge driver for PC development and a big seller of OS upgrades. That is why MS keeps up with this practice. Weird thing is a lot of games, even in 2012, are still using DX9+ because the devs want the widest range of platforms and a lot of gamers won't dump XP.

You really need to go back and read up on the history of OpenGL and DirectX, if you didn't experience it first hand as a PC gamer. Carmack doesn't like DX at all and if you look at screenshots of him in front of a monitor, that is recognizable OpenGL code he is hammering away at. Strange thinking about all the changes over the years but several years ago, games started providing config panels and most id games had a choice of OpenGL or DirectX. The GPU's have supported both for a long time and you aren't going to see a lot of people in Sony Studios hammering away at DX code. Why GPU's support both is a long, tangle history. Today, we have Nvidia and AMD for GPU's. There are a couple others like Intel and Matrox but they are minorities. Back in the DOS days, there were 20 or 30 graphics card companies, and if you were a DOS PC gamer, you would know it because it was a huge hassle to get the drivers and interrupts configured. This was such a huge hassle that it was a major driver for the Xbox. The idea was provide a box that you didn't have to do all kinds of configuring to get a game working, just pop in a disk and play. The reason was this was the only way to expand the market and that did prove true. But it allowed children to become video gamers. Back in the day, you had to be a man to be a DOS PC gamer.

[Lefein]

Did you play those games with DX10 effects on a DX9 card? I'm guessing no. You're focusing on the wrong details.

[Two4DaMoney]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread...99#post1702099

Sony greatly deceived 3rd parties this time around. Supposedly Ubisoft and Activision, as well as others were led to believe that the PS4 would be a low power A10 equivalent, that had access to 2GB of unified DDR3 ram.
Microsoft probably developed the Durango to exceed that.

I just think that this is not fair, even if Ubisoft and Activision were leaking information to MS, Sony should have been more honest. I expect the next Ubisoft and Activision titles to not use any additional PS4 processing power at all because of this. They were played hard.
The Durango suffers in the long term as a consequence of Sony's lies and deceit. It's just not fair.

omg, my fucking side hurts from laughing so hard.

[Ixion]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread...99#post1702099

omg, my fucking side hurts from laughing so hard.

That's one of the funniest posts I've ever read.

Bravo Sony!

[itachi73378]

Holy shhh...is that post for real?!

[MonkeyClaw]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread...99#post1702099

omg, my fucking side hurts from laughing so hard.

Troll Level: Orbis

[mynd]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread...99#post1702099

omg, my fucking side hurts from laughing so hard.

Got to agree with you, all is fair in love and war, this is business not playtime.
"If" Sony did this, good on em, there are risks, for such deception, but long term gains.

[radgamer420]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread...99#post1702099 omg, my fucking side hurts from laughing so hard.

Lol Sony rickrolled MS.

[TGO]

GAF again, I love it lol