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  1. #401
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    OGuys, I'm fully aware that MS needs to turn a profit (and they do to the tune of 4 billion a quarter). My point was to illustrate that MS can afford to lose money and a lot of it of they so chose. I don't think they're going to take a $400 loss per console and charge 600 like Sony did but I do think they'll take a significant loss and that the console will be powerful.

    I think we should wait and not listen to rumors. They're a bunch of nonsense made by sites looking for clicks.

    To put MS's cash situation in perspective, the entire RROD fiasco cost them 1 billion dollars. They make 4 billion every 3 months. They have 68 billion cash. Tell me why they can't make a powerful console and why common sense is trumped by rumors. I think the PS4 will be powerful too btw but this is the ms section and everything I stated that was assumed to be fanboyism or for some crazy reason that I thought ms should by Sony was intended as an example of MS's cash reserves. I think that people don't understand the situation MS is in so I put it in terms that people could ubderstand. Obviously they wouldn't buy Sony and obviously any purchase would be higher than he market cap (though still less than MS's cash reserve). That's a side track to my real point, ms has a lot of money - more than most people understand. I mean a billion is a thousand millions. They have 68 thousand million dollar piles.

    Why can't they lose money on the console launch?
    Last edited by Typical guy; 02-19-2013 at 02:23.

  2. #402
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    I'm not so sure those investors will be happy about them $#@!ing off money in the manner of which you speak.


  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Typical guy View Post
    OGuys, I'm fully aware that MS needs to turn a profit (and they do to the tune of 4 billion a quarter). My point was to illustrate that MS can afford to lose money and a lot of it of they so chose. I don't think they're going to take a $400 loss per console and charge 600 like Sony did but I do think they'll take a significant loss and that the console will be powerful.

    I think we should wait and not listen to rumors. They're a bunch of nonsense made by sites looking for clicks.

    To put MS's cash situation in perspective, the entire RROD fiasco cost them 1 billion dollars. They make 4 billion every 3 months. They have 68 billion cash. Tell me why they can't make a powerful console and why common sense is trumped by rumors. I think the PS4 will be powerful too btw but this is the ms section.
    does not mean we have to unequivocally praise MS and Xbox.

    Again all that money isnt for gaming section. Shareholders were already unhappy with Xbox losing 7 billion dolalrs and demanded profit.

    It would take some serious convincing to let MS take big loss for console. However, from what we heard so far, MS is not going that direction. Common sense and logic also tells us the same story.

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typical guy View Post
    OGuys, I'm fully aware that MS needs to turn a profit (and they do to the tune of 4 billion a quarter). My point was to illustrate that MS can afford to lose money and a lot of it of they so chose. I don't think they're going to take a $400 loss per console and charge 600 like Sony did but I do think they'll take a significant loss and that the console will be powerful.

    I think we should wait and not listen to rumors. They're a bunch of nonsense made by sites looking for clicks.

    To put MS's cash situation in perspective, the entire RROD fiasco cost them 1 billion dollars. They make 4 billion every 3 months. They have 68 billion cash. Tell me why they can't make a powerful console and why common sense is trumped by rumors. I think the PS4 will be powerful too btw but this is the ms section and everything I stated that was assumed to be fanboyism or for some crazy reason that I thought ms should by Sony was intended as an example of MS's cash reserves. I think that people don't understand the situation MS is in so I put it in terms that people could ubderstand. Obviously they wouldn't buy Sony and obviously any purchase would be higher than he market cap (though still less than MS's cash reserve). That's a side track to my real point, ms has a lot of money - more than most people understand. I mean a billion is a thousand millions. They have 68 thousand million dollar piles.

    Why can't they lose money on the console launch?
    I don't know how much they have but they sure as hell can afford to take some losses on the new console. The question is how much of a loss we are talking? The good thing about their business model is that things like xbox live can probably make up some of those losses easily.

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    I'm not so sure those investors will be happy about them $#@!ing off money in the manner of which you speak.
    What manner am I speaking of? I hope to god you aren't going to say that I'm suggesting they buy Sony. Last time I thought it was obvious that it wasn't a suggestion. It wasn't to people so I made it explicit this time.

    If you read what I wrote and you think investors will give a damn about the next Xbox bringing in hardware losses then you're wrong. The 360 did that and it's turned WAY more of a profit tha. It ever lost - RROD included. Given that history I think most investors would accept it. Also, considering their profit is 1,300 piles of a million dollars every month, the company would still be in the black. They have other profitable sectors.

  6. #406
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    My main point throughout is that people don't understand what MS has in its war chest. It's been illustrative. I'll believe that MS is going to essentially redesign the Xbox 360 with a few new parts when I see it. Same with Sony. Sony is in a worse place but they need their PS division to compete as the rest of the company is unprofitable. They don't seem to understand that most people would rather buy a $2000 Samsung TV that gets as good as or better reviews than a $3000-$4000 Sony model. They'll get there though (I hope).

  7. #407
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    Seems like the gap between PC and consoles next generation will be pretty wide. Alot wider than it was in 2005 when the 360 launched..

    Though I think this is mostly due to the TDP of modern graphics cards. Grunt has increased dramatically but so has the power requirements.

    Console makers don't want to ship a device with the power draw of a monster gaming PC.


  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Seems like the gap between PC and consoles next generation will be pretty wide. Alot wider than it was in 2005 when the 360 launched..

    Though I think this is mostly due to the TDP of modern graphics cards. Grunt has increased dramatically but so has the power requirements.

    Console makers don't want to ship a device with the power draw of a monster gaming PC.
    A lot of what makes modern graphics cards what they are was started on the 360. If you look back, you'd be surprised to see what the 360 had that PC's didn't. If they innovate again then you could see another leap. The obvious reason for a larger cap is that it was a longer generation.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typical guy View Post
    A lot of what makes modern graphics cards what they are was started on the 360. If you look back, you'd be surprised to see what the 360 had that PC's didn't. If they innovate again then you could see another leap. The obvious reason for a larger cap is that it was a longer generation.
    Care to share a link? I've never heard this before. Not saying it isn't true, just wondering.


  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    Care to share a link? I've never heard this before. Not saying it isn't true, just wondering.
    I wasn't around when the last consoles hit so I barely know but I think the 360 really pushed the industry towards unified shader architecture. Ps3 doesn't have that and I guess thats one more reason why its harder to work I guess (keyword being guess)

    Even that wasn't an entirely new innovation. It just helped it make more popular. I'd like to know more details aswell
    I wonder when a nuclear warhead goes off, does the frame rate of real life drop?

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typical guy View Post
    OGuys, I'm fully aware that MS needs to turn a profit (and they do to the tune of 4 billion a quarter). My point was to illustrate that MS can afford to lose money and a lot of it of they so chose. I don't think they're going to take a $400 loss per console and charge 600 like Sony did but I do think they'll take a significant loss and that the console will be powerful.

    I think we should wait and not listen to rumors. They're a bunch of nonsense made by sites looking for clicks.

    To put MS's cash situation in perspective, the entire RROD fiasco cost them 1 billion dollars. They make 4 billion every 3 months. They have 68 billion cash. Tell me why they can't make a powerful console and why common sense is trumped by rumors. I think the PS4 will be powerful too btw but this is the ms section and everything I stated that was assumed to be fanboyism or for some crazy reason that I thought ms should by Sony was intended as an example of MS's cash reserves. I think that people don't understand the situation MS is in so I put it in terms that people could ubderstand. Obviously they wouldn't buy Sony and obviously any purchase would be higher than he market cap (though still less than MS's cash reserve). That's a side track to my real point, ms has a lot of money - more than most people understand. I mean a billion is a thousand millions. They have 68 thousand million dollar piles.

    Why can't they lose money on the console launch?
    So they turn 4 billion a quarter with the Xbox Division? (rhetorical question) It's not relevant.

    Unless they were going to get that money back, they aren't going to want to lose it, no matter how many thousands of millions they have. That's how business works, MS is not excluded from this rule.

    If you read what I wrote and you think investors will give a damn about the next Xbox bringing in hardware losses then you're wrong. The 360 did that and it's turned WAY more of a profit tha. It ever lost - RROD included. Given that history I think most investors would accept it.
    1) How much loss was 360 getting at launch?

    2) Did you know that the RROD was written off? That means it's not included in the Xbox Division's balance statement.

    Also, even if it were true, where are you getting this information that they made this supposed "WAY more of a profit" including the RROD fiasco? Do you know their internal statements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Typical guy View Post
    A lot of what makes modern graphics cards what they are was started on the 360. If you look back, you'd be surprised to see what the 360 had that PC's didn't. If they innovate again then you could see another leap. The obvious reason for a larger cap is that it was a longer generation.
    What?

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Typical guy View Post
    What manner am I speaking of? I hope to god you aren't going to say that I'm suggesting they buy Sony. Last time I thought it was obvious that it wasn't a suggestion. It wasn't to people so I made it explicit this time.
    No. You were saying MS can buy Sony 4 or 5 times. No they can't. It was unreasonable statement.

    If you read what I wrote and you think investors will give a damn about the next Xbox bringing in hardware losses then you're wrong. The 360 did that and it's turned WAY more of a profit tha. It ever lost - RROD included. Given that history I think most investors would accept it. Also, considering their profit is 1,300 piles of a million dollars every month, the company would still be in the black. They have other profitable sectors.
    And show me some facts on WAY more profitable. RROD was not their loss. Only 1 of 7 billion loss actually.

    Xbox started turn profit in 2008. Or EDD of MS started to make profit first time since Xbox was launched. Till now, all loses.

    And I do not think you understand this, but business do not run and make profit so they could have one sector lose money.

    Again, your argument falls terribly short when you just look at how MS has skimped hard on buying core studios and IPs. It just sound to me as wishful thinking


    @Sufi
    Nvm u beat me to it.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    Last edited by FableMaster; 02-19-2013 at 03:58.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by FableMaster View Post
    And I do not think you understand this, but business do not run and make profit so they could have one sector lose money.
    This. People here need to understand how business works.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    I wasn't around when the last consoles hit so I barely know but I think the 360 really pushed the industry towards unified shader architecture. Ps3 doesn't have that and I guess thats one more reason why its harder to work I guess (keyword being guess)

    Even that wasn't an entirely new innovation. It just helped it make more popular. I'd like to know more details aswell
    Yeah I wasn't real big into all the info that came out of consoles back then either. I was mostly worried about how the games looked and what the release date was. That's why i ask. There was a big step up in the PC era then.


  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    Care to share a link? I've never heard this before. Not saying it isn't true, just wondering.
    Unified shaders were developed for the 360 and not featured in graphics cards for another year by ATI.

    @sufi - 1 billion was written off, it did show in their balance sheet.

    They also made that billion back not
    long after.

    The 360, on its own, is a very profitable product.

    The PS3 will never ever make a profit as a product. Even if they make money on it from here on...its never going to recover 3 billion plus dollars.
    Microsofts stock is worth about 250 billion.
    Sony stock is worth about $15 billion.

    Nuff said.
    If their reserves are
    Larger than $15 billion then yeah they could buy Sony.

    Also, even if it were true, where are you getting this information that they made this supposed "WAY more of a profit" including the RROD fiasco? Do you know their internal statements?
    Yeah uh, we have entertainment division making profits, we have the statements, and we know they have made money on the 360, even despite the huge losses that zune made.


    It amazes me that the discussion about subsidising console is going on.

    It has ways been both Microsoft's and Sonys philosophy. They make money on software royalties.
    Last edited by mynd; 02-19-2013 at 06:20.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Nuff said.
    If their reserves are
    Larger than $15 billion then yeah they could buy Sony.
    Dead Wrong. From what you said so far, I don't think you grasp how business are ran. Especially, publicly traded companies like this. They do not just spend money here and there because they make a lot.

    Nuff said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    This. People here need to understand how business works.
    Agreed. But, it's even worse if they talk as if they know how business work. I feel like we are trying to explain something very obvious. over and over again....
    Last edited by FableMaster; 02-19-2013 at 06:34.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by FableMaster View Post
    Dead Wrong. From what you said so far, I don't think you grasp how business are ran. Especially, publicly traded companies like this. They do not just spend money here and there because they make a lot.

    Nuff said.
    You aren't making any sense, but i never said that MS would ever bother buying Sony.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    You aren't making any sense, but i never said that MS would ever bother buying Sony.
    when did I say you were? I quoted you on what you said and just pointed out that you are incorrect. We explained in detail what that is so already this or previous page.

    Either way, let's step aside from this business talk. It's not going to magically change Xbox's position as you think. MS seem to have found a more easier way to make bigger profit and they will pursue that. That is all there is too it.
    Last edited by FableMaster; 02-19-2013 at 06:47.

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by FableMaster View Post
    when did I say you were? I quoted you on what you said and just pointed out that you are incorrect. We explained in detail what that is so already this or previous page.

    Either way, let's step aside from this business talk. It's not going to magically change Xbox's position as you think. MS seem to have found a more easier way to make bigger profit and they will pursue that. There is all there is too it.
    Im sorry what?
    Offer enough money above shares to anyone they will eventually take it.
    There is no anti trust issue.

    I never said it is a good use of money.

    As for xbox, they are just fine.
    They didn't just sell their assests to fund the next xbox....unlike someone who needed the cash...
    Only kidding

    Although the timing was interesting.

    Im still trying to figure what any of this has to do with gpu.
    Last edited by mynd; 02-19-2013 at 08:47.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    The same rumours people I quoted were basing there opinions off of. When the VERY first kinect 2 rumours hit last year, I KNEW it would reduce the budget for the final product (see Wii U). It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that a pheriphiral with dedicated processor will eat into the resources for the console. Especially when you package it in every box (as the rumours claim)

    Same can be said about the integrated cameras and move functunality in Orbis
    Why would it reduce the budget? Cell and Blu ray did not reduce the budget for the ps3. My thinking is that we probably see two models at launch, one with Kinect and one without, and if we dont, MS probably looks to make a loss early on and recoup them later in the generation, That is what both Sony and MS have done for several generations now.

    This thinking line that something included means less somewhere else is about as farfetched as taking individual stats from rumours and trying to make it stick.

    I personally want to give these companies the benefit of doubt and have the thought that if they are going to include something they have the know how and resources embedded in the system to make it work, this doom mongering that if this is included then some unspecified somewhat unknown function will have resources go down is the same thing i witnessed this generation and what i have for the better part read with regards to next gen consoles. Most have proved to be further from reality when light of these figures and how things work have been revealed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    That is true and it makes the situation looks even worse. Because when they started "winding down" the year before kinect launched, the ps3 made a huge gain closing the gap.
    So, MS closed down FASA, ACES, Ensemble, and had relationships with Bioware, Bizarre, Realtime Worlds, Mistwalker, Tecmo, Silicon knights et al all a year before Kinect launched?

    Said that so much BS, and opinion is spewed as fact, and one needs look no further than your post or justification.
    There's always excuses smh. Idc what the behind the scenes situation was. MS would have found a way to get those titles out if they deemed them worthy as a successful title. Based off the 4 big budget titles in rotation, if a game doesn't sell 4-5+million then it's not successful.
    The idea always seemed to be to have a lean first party and greater second and third party relationships to bridge the gap.

    That said, MS has been expanding their development base but that is something you will not see people talking about hereon. Which begs the question, what is their end game rather than stirring up trouble.

    Microsoft Studios – Los Angeles, Connected Experiences, Platform Next Studios, Playful Learning, Black Tusk studios et al are all working on next gen projects if the current info on them is correct. Will they all deliver? I dont think so, for the mere fact that not all games under one stable will be killer apps, but it is an improvement on what currently exists on the platform. If you are so quick to blame and point fingers, be quick to give credit where it is due

    All this still boils down to people being fed up with MS. People don't know rather to trust them due to how they started winding down right before kinect. Will they continue support of their new exclusives or stop supporting them as they did with the 360 and resort to a select few?
    Third party games are still the end all be all. First and second party titles may end up being the reason one would justifying a purchase, but no one is going to go anywhere without third party support. MS learnt that in their first generation, and Sony has learnt that third parties offering the same support for another console quickly erodes competitive advantage had it not been like that.
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  21. #421
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    Interesting development :

    AMD latest PDF document about upcoming Sea Island (CI)
    http://developer.amd.com/wordpress/m...chitecture.pdf

    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=1082


    Important differences between S.I. and C.I. GPUs

    •Multi queue compute
    Lets multiple user-level queues of compute workloads be bound to the device and processed simultaneous. Hardware supports up to eight compute pipelines with up to eight queues bound to each pipeline.
    •System unified addressing
    Allows GPU access to process coherent address space.
    •Device unified addressing
    Lets a kernel view LDS and video memory as a single addressable memory. It also adds shader instructions, which provide access to “flat” memory space.
    •Memory address watch
    Lets a shader determine if a region of memory has been accessed.
    •Conditional debug
    Adds the ability to execute or skip a section of code based on state bits under control of debugger software. This feature adds two bits of state to each wavefront; these bits are initialized by the state register values set by the debugger, and they can be used in conditional branch instructions to skip or execute debug-only code in the kernel.
    •Support for unaligned memory accesses
    •Detection and reporting of violations in memory accesses

    Summary of kernel instruction change from S.I. to C.I.

    New instruction formats:
    •FLAT

    New instructions:
    •FLAT_* (entire family of operations)
    •S_CBRANCH_CDBGUSER
    •S_CBRANCH_CDBGSYS
    •S_CBRANCH_CDBGSYS_OR_USER
    •S_CBRANCH_CDBGSYS_AND_USER
    •S_DCACHE_INV_VOL
    •V_TRUNC_F64
    •V_CEIL_F64
    •V_FLOOR_F64
    •V_RNDNE_F64
    •V_QSAD_PK_U16_U8
    •V_MQSAD_U16_U8
    •V_MQSAD_U32_U8
    •V_MAD_U64_U32
    •V_MAD_I64_I32
    •V_EXP_LEGACY_F32
    •V_LOG_LEGACY_F32
    •DS_NOP
    •DS_GWS_SEMA_RELEASE_ALL
    •DS_WRAP_RTN_B32
    •DS_CNDXCHG32_RTN_B64
    •DS_WRITE_B96
    •DS_WRITE_B128
    •DS_CONDXCHG32_RTN_B128
    •DS_READ_B96
    •DS_READ_B128
    •BUFFER_LOAD_DWORDX3
    •BUFFER_STORE_DWORDX3

    Removed instructions:
    •V_QSAD_U8
    •V_MQSAD_U8
    •BUFFER_ATOMIC_RSUB, _X2
    •IMAGE_ATOMIC_RSUB, _X2
    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=1101
    That changes are practically describing the Durango CPU-GPU's behaviour with ESRAM.
    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=1102
    That also caught my eye. But it's not necessarily just the behaviour with the eSRAM.
    Interesting, this info seems backing up some rumor that xbox next will be based on newer architecture - Sea island or future
    (+8xxx)
    Last edited by X2; 02-19-2013 at 21:45.
    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

  22. #422
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    Edit: Meh, post deleted, not just worth the time....
    Last edited by snooper71; 02-19-2013 at 11:41.


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  23. #423
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    Lol

    Sent from my Note II

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    Replying to everyone asking me to spend hours going through quarterly reports: are you $#@!ting me? You go look at the reports. You don't believe me? Fine. I'm not spending huge amounts of time to prove things to you guys.
    Last edited by Typical guy; 02-19-2013 at 12:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typical guy View Post
    Replying to everyone asking me to spend hours going through quarterly reports: are you $#@!ting me? You go look at the reports. You don't believe me? Fine. I'm not spending huge amounts of time to prove things to you guys.
    Found them!


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