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  1. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galvanise_ View Post
    Yeah they've designed the box for the functions they wanted it to do. They won't do any reactionary changes. For example they were aware of the bandwidth limitations of DDR3 so they put in some eSRAM to help compensate for that.

    Where I think Microsoft may come unstuck is Kinect. A lot of people are expecting Microsoft to really demonstrate the benefits of Kinect to the OS (again) but there is absolutely nothing to stop Sony's PS4 Eye doing the same thing. I know for a fact that they had been prototyping OS navigation with cameras as far back as 2008. If they've got that stuff up to scratch then Durango, while still technically proficient, would lose a key differentiator in the eyes of consumers.

    It'll be interesting to see how things play out.
    Imagine if Sony revealed the new Eyetoy has a great deal of features that Kinect 2 had at E3. If MS is going all out with Kinect that would take a lot of wind out of their sails. It was rather odd that they just showed it and didn't go into detail about it. Although i don't think that Eyetoy is going to be in every box. More like a bundle for likely $100 more. That would be one thing MS would have going for them over Sony if that scenario happened.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    Imagine if Sony revealed the new Eyetoy has a great deal of features that Kinect 2 had at E3. If MS is going all out with Kinect that would take a lot of wind out of their sails. It was rather odd that they just showed it and didn't go into detail about it. Although i don't think that Eyetoy is going to be in every box. More like a bundle for likely $100 more. That would be one thing MS would have going for them over Sony if that scenario happened.
    The PS4 Eye costs next to nothing to make. Someone did a breakdown on the parts and it came in around $20.

    I don't forsee Sony doing motion games that solely use the Eye, Microsoft will still have that advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    How is Sony's approach not 'efficient'?
    Because there aren't targeting, specifically the issue, they are using more a large sledgehammer to it.
    Thats not to say it has extra flexibility because of it.

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    Isn't that dependant on how good their development tools are?

    Sounds like it's exactly what developers were asking for !

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    They loved the unified ram in the 360. YET the ps3 and 360 were using different means to approach the same goal.

    The 720 seems to be the one with the more complicated set up while the ps4's is set up exactly how the devs requested it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    They loved the unified ram in the 360. YET the ps3 and 360 were using different means to approach the same goal.

    The 720 seems to be the one with the more complicated set up while the ps4's is set up exactly how the devs requested it.
    You have no idea what the devs requested, stop putting your ideas into their mouths.
    Devs wanted the PS4 to be more straightforward, less complicated, they got that. They cannot and do not comment on the 720 at this time.

    You really think MS made their machine more complicated than they did last gen?

    Or is that just wishful thinking?
    Last edited by mynd; 02-24-2013 at 00:37.

  7. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    They loved the unified ram in the 360. YET the ps3 and 360 were using different means to approach the same goal. The 720 seems to be the one with the more complicated set up while the ps4's is set up exactly how the devs requested it.
    Sounds like 720 has to use all these complicated workarounds in an attempt to compensate for using inferior RAM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    Sounds like 720 has to use all these complicated workarounds in an attempt to compensate for using inferior RAM.
    They are hardly complicated work arounds, its a tweak on what they did this gen, and we all know how "awful" the 360 was to programme for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    Sounds like 720 has to use all these complicated workarounds in an attempt to compensate for using inferior RAM.
    That's what I've been reading from those sites posting the rumors. Not to say that it's ps3 cell complicated but more complicated than whats set up in the ps4.

    @mynd, chill out. You act like I kicked you in the balls. I'm not saying this is 100% true.
    Last edited by Two4DaMoney; 02-24-2013 at 00:59.


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    Lol, console "wars"

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    That's what I've been reading from those sites posting the rumors. Not to say that it's ps3 cell complicated but more complicated than whats set up in the ps4.

    @mynd, chill out. You act like I kicked you in the balls. I'm not saying this is 100% true.
    There is no doubt that the PS4 is more straightforward design. Butianyone who believes its "exactly what the devs asked" is dreaminhg.

    Devs will always ask for more of everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    They are hardly complicated work arounds, its a tweak on what they did this gen, and we all know how "awful" the 360 was to programme for.
    But we're talking about 720 now not the 360. But since you mentioned 360 it is almost like they switched roles from a coding perspective with PS4 now being easier to program for than the 720. If thats the case then most developers will make the PS4 the lead platform on multiplats which could end up with multiplats being better on PS4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    There is no doubt that the PS4 is more straightforward design. Butianyone who believes its "exactly what the devs asked" is dreaminhg.

    Devs will always ask for more of everything.
    I'm just going by what Sony and devs said at the ps meeting and from tweets. Sony asked, devs requested/demanded and Sony delivered. That doesn't sound like a dream to me.

    Of course they will and they are stupid to think a company will lose out on 1000's of dollars on each console sold too.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    I'm just going by what Sony and devs said at the ps meeting and from tweets. Sony asked, devs requested/demanded and Sony delivered. That doesn't sound like a dream to me.

    Of course they will and they are stupid to think a company will lose out on 1000's of dollars on each console sold too.
    Compared to the PS3? Sure, as Rad says, all they really asked for the was the next console to be more like the 360.
    I'm sure devs would prefer a 2+ teraflop GPU etc etc and that's not realistic, and yes, this exactly what devs wanted from Sony. It has little to do with what they want from MS.

    But at a guess, they wanted larger EDram, and more flexibility to access it, cause that's certainly what it is rumored that MS is giving them.

    MS doesn't have to throw away already good ideas/design that work, they just need to tweak and refine them to make them better.

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    So I have a general question.
    When ES/EDram is not big enough there's is something called 'tiling' done for the textures/final image. Most devs hate doing it. So I assume that means breaking up the image into 'tiles' to better manage the memory. is that true?
    I wonder when a nuclear warhead goes off, does the frame rate of real life drop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    So I have a general question.
    When ES/EDram is not big enough there's is something called 'tiling' done for the textures/final image. Most devs hate doing it. So I assume that means breaking up the image into 'tiles' to better manage the memory. is that true?
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-nz/library/bb464139.aspx

    Yeah it was about 2mb short on the original 360, and its testament to the system of just how powerful the EDram was, you had to render things multiple times, and it still outperformed the PS3 GPU.

    The increase in resolution (2.25 times) is smaller than then the 3.2x they have given the ESRAM.
    It wont be an issue.

    Ya think MS overlooked that huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-nz/library/bb464139.aspx

    Yeah it was about 2mb short on the original 360, and its testament to the system of just how powerful the EDram was, you had to render things multiple times, and it still outperformed the PS3 GPU.

    The increase in resolution (2.25 times) is smaller than then the 3.2x they have given the ESRAM.
    It wont be an issue.

    Ya think MS overlooked that huh?
    So I guess 1080p + post process AA confirmed then.
    I wonder when a nuclear warhead goes off, does the frame rate of real life drop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    So I guess 1080p + post process AA confirmed then.
    Given they can read straight back from esram this time, I imagine all sorts of custom post processing and filtering being created. That goes for both systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    Imagine if Sony revealed the new Eyetoy has a great deal of features that Kinect 2 had at E3. If MS is going all out with Kinect that would take a lot of wind out of their sails. It was rather odd that they just showed it and didn't go into detail about it. Although i don't think that Eyetoy is going to be in every box. More like a bundle for likely $100 more. That would be one thing MS would have going for them over Sony if that scenario happened.
    Just maybe.....

    The PlayStation 4 has a Kinect-like camera sensor. What? You forgot already? Thats because Sony mentioned it precisely once near the beginning of their conferenceand then never spoke of it again. It'll talk about it in greater detail later, of course, but it was smart enough to realize that the core gamer it was focused on winning back with this initial announcement wouldnt want to hear a single word about a Kinect-like device just yet. And so it didnt risk losing a single bit of their momentum by talking more about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    There is no doubt that the PS4 is more straightforward design. Butianyone who believes its "exactly what the devs asked" is dreaminhg.

    Devs will always ask for more of everything.
    Why did SCEI choose a low-power CPU core over a high-performance CPU core among AMD's CPU cores?

    SCEI did not choose Jaguar; they only had Jaguar to choose from.

    Remember initially it was suppose to be Steamroller instead of Jaguar.
    Last edited by X2; 02-24-2013 at 04:45.
    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Because there aren't targeting, specifically the issue, they are using more a large sledgehammer to it.
    Thats not to say it has extra flexibility because of it.
    So, what you're saying is that Sony's approach isn't as good as Microsoft's? (Regardless of whether it takes care of the issue or not.)

    Basically, Sony isn't trying to solve the issue per se. They are trying to take care of it by providing more of something so it isn't a problem. Am I right?

    That being the case, you're sure that Sony went this route solely because of the reason you believe they did? or could it have more to it than that?
    Last edited by sainraja; 02-24-2013 at 04:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    So, what you're saying is that Sony's approach isn't as good as Microsoft's? (Regardless of whether it takes care of the issue or not.)
    No he is saying that its a PC like approach, where you just put more brute power and hope it solves the problem. Durango's solution is more like a console, all about technique (in other words efficient).

    Like Mynd said, both have advantages, but brute force will have more flexibility
    I wonder when a nuclear warhead goes off, does the frame rate of real life drop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    But we're talking about 720 now not the 360. But since you mentioned 360 it is almost like they switched roles from a coding perspective with PS4 now being easier to program for than the 720. If thats the case then most developers will make the PS4 the lead platform on multiplats which could end up with multiplats being better on PS4.
    It doesn't seem like the PS4 would be that much easier to work with over the next Xbox. Easier than the PS3 yes but it's just likely you wont see as big of a discrepancy between the two platforms with 3rd party games.

    quick question though for someone that might know..
    does MS expanding the edram to 32mb make it possible for something like 4xmsaa or greater on a 1920x1080 resolution


    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    Why did SCEI choose a low-power CPU core over a high-performance CPU core among AMD's CPU cores?

    SCEI did not choose Jaguar; they only had Jaguar to choose from.

    Remember initially it was suppose to be Steamroller instead of Jaguar.
    just some info on that from the MS front is that they're not using a standard Jaguar core but a modified jaguar cpu that gets ~2x the performance a standard jaguar gets
    Last edited by maltrophstitan; 02-24-2013 at 04:50.


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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    No he is saying that its a PC like approach, where you just put more brute power and hope it solves the problem. Durango's solution is more like a console, all about technique (in other words efficient).

    Like Mynd said, both have advantages, but brute force will have more flexibility
    Yeah, I think I understood that (edited my post to make that clear.) If you're hoping it solves the problem, how have you solved it? Providing more of something may have taken care of it, you haven't really solved the problem though.

    Maybe I don't understand....but I think what I am trying to get at, is that, what could Sony have done that would make their approach efficient while also providing more 'brute' power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    Yeah, I think I understood that (edited my post to make that clear.) If you're hoping it solves the problem, how have you solved it? Providing more of something may have taken care of it, you haven't really solved the problem though.

    Maybe I don't understand....but I think what I am trying to get at, is that, what could Sony have done that would make their approach efficient while also providing more 'brute' power.
    Out of the two, a larger pool of faster RAM is the 'better' option imo BUT if you dont want to be that extravagant and still get the same bandwidth (near the same) with cheap memory then you could go the durango route. In this way durango is more efficient as it doesn't waste money on expensive ram but still manages to remove bottelneck.

    It all depends on what you want as an end goal. If you just want higher bandwidth numbers with minimum cost, then durango may win that 'efficiency' battle but if you want bandwidth and ease of use then ps4 wins. See what I'm getting at?

    This is all assuming ESRAM setup costs less than 8gb GDDR5
    I wonder when a nuclear warhead goes off, does the frame rate of real life drop?

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