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  1. #76
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    http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusi...-move-engines/

    Move engines...I don't know what the $#@! any of this means lol.


  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by J3ff3 View Post
    no, i'm not surprised you're not trying to defend it. you just came in to gloat that the next xbox wasn't a next gen console because you didn't like what was said in a different thread. you've said as much yourself.

    an irrational position is not defensible.
    lol, no I didn't. If you'd read people's posts with an ounce of objectivity rather than seeing what you want to see, that would be clear.

    All the same you lot. That's right, you lot.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusi...-move-engines/

    Move engines...I don't know what the $#@! any of this means lol.
    More flexibility for devs i guess.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    if the rumours were going the other way you lot would be crowing about it til the cows come home. In fact there was a bit of that a while ago
    point being I wasn't reading any of this "hey guys it's only rumerz" when the talk on the town was that Nextbox > PS4 by a factor of 2.
    no, clearly you weren't pissed off by which ever thread spoke of the nextxbox being more powerful. you clearly took it in your stride and didn't come in here and start insinuating that "us lot" are crowing fanboys.

    the thread definitely wasn't your motivation to post something as baseless as this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Gaming will NOT take the step forwards it needs to with only one console that's really "next-gen"

    However reading the resident MS apologists posts here and elsewhere is pretty hilarious
    i think you need to reread your posts with objectivity. its quite clear why you posted.
    Last edited by J3ff3; 02-06-2013 at 15:24.
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  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusi...-move-engines/

    Move engines...I don't know what the $#@! any of this means lol.
    If this isnt just some made up bull$#@!. It means zero pipeline stalls for the esram.
    It means youll hit close to theoritical top end of the gpu basically every time.
    It also means you can be copy back from the esram the framebuffer or one render targets while writing others.
    At points this gives you an extra 25.6gb bandwidth boost.
    Last edited by mynd; 02-06-2013 at 17:07.

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  8. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    If this isnt just some made up bull$#@!. It means zero pipeline stalls for the esram.
    It means youll hit close to theoritical top end of the gpu basically every time.
    It also means you can be copy back from the esram the framebuffer or one render targets while writing others.
    At points this gives you an extra 25.6gb bandwidth boost.
    So this is good then?

  9. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    If this isnt just some made up bull$#@!. It means zero pipeline stalls for the esram.
    It means youll hit close to theoritical top end of the gpu basically every time.
    It also means you can be copy back from the esram the framebuffer or one render targets while writing others.
    At points this gives you an extra 25.6gb bandwidth boost.
    I think at this point you're being too skeptical Mynd.

    There's good reason to believe that DF and VGleaks aren't making $#@! up. DF themselves have double sourced alot of this and independently from VGleaks- and the specs they're throwing out here are pretty much identical.

    So what we have now, I would say, is 95% of what we're going to get when we plug the things into our outlets and turn them on.

    It's one thing to have "forum goers" talking about friend of a friend or their own "personal knowledge" on this stuff. It's another for an outlet as respected as DF to say with authority "we feel this is very legit" and publish information they've collected from multiple sources they trust.


  10. #83
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    from what i read, it doesn't give you a *boost* in bandwidth of any sort, it just allows you to get closer to the theoretical limit. basically preventing stalls.

    there's a nice description/analogy of how they should help in the thread i posted.
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  11. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by J3ff3 View Post
    from what i read, it doesn't give you a *boost* in bandwidth of any sort, it just allows you to get closer to the theoretical limit. basically preventing stalls.

    there's a nice description/analogy of how they should help in the thread i posted.
    Yeah boost might be the wrong word, extra path? Perhaps. But stalls are big factor in any gpu. And this would allow this thing to sizzle.

  12. #85
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    yeah, i think extra path is a good way of putting it.

    someone put forward the idea of duplicating certain information in order to have faster access at all times, but i had no idea what he was on about


    the point being anyway is that this is no advantage over the ps4 at all. its architecture makes it unneccessary, so its not special sauce in anyway
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  13. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by J3ff3 View Post
    yeah, i think extra path is a good way of putting it.

    someone put forward the idea of duplicating certain information in order to have faster access at all times, but i had no idea what he was on about


    the point being anyway is that this is no advantage over the ps4 at all. its architecture makes it unneccessary, so its not special sauce in anyway
    Its not needed in the PS4, but that doesn't mean that this isn't going to make this GPU far more efficient.
    By a considerable margin.
    Toe to toe, I wouldn't want to call a winner on the GPU front now.

  14. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by J3ff3 View Post
    i think you need to reread your posts with objectivity. its quite clear why you posted.
    You're very keen on telling me what I think and why I'm posting aren't you, mystic meg. Mind telling me my favourite colour and what I'm having for dinner tonight whilst you're at it?

    yeah... no.

    You're the one who made this a thing, I posted my thoughts in this thread, along with the rest of the people here. The americans have a phrase for your subsequent responses, butt hurt I believe it is? I can see why you're frustrated but this is how many $#@!s are given ____


    you clearly took it in your stride and didn't come in here and start insinuating that "us lot" are crowing fanboys.
    Nobody needs me to "insinuate" that

  15. #88
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    @Cyn theres no need to be hasty.

    uuummmmm...Fried Beer iis a reality.

  16. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    You're very keen on telling me what I think and why I'm posting aren't you, mystic meg. Mind telling me my favourite colour and what I'm having for dinner tonight whilst you're at it?

    yeah... no.

    You're the one who made this a thing, I posted my thoughts in this thread, along with the rest of the people here. The americans have a phrase for your subsequent responses, butt hurt I believe it is? I can see why you're frustrated but this is how many $#@!s are given ____
    i don't need to predict anything. its there in black and white.


    Nobody needs me to "insinuate" that
    no, i agree with you. you are 100% correct, nobody needs you coming in to the thread and insinuating that we're all fanboys.

    so leave.
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  17. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Its not needed in the PS4, but that doesn't mean that this isn't going to make this GPU far more efficient.
    By a considerable margin.
    Toe to toe, I wouldn't want to call a winner on the GPU front now.
    Why not?

    GPU wise it seems pretty clear cut Orbis beats down Durango. 14+4 CU's vs 12.

    From what we know right now anyway.


  18. #91
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    I suggest everyone plays nicely....


    These are all just rumors right now, so crying or insinuating anything is completely pointless.
    Last edited by Lethal; 02-06-2013 at 22:49.

  19. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Why not?

    GPU wise it seems pretty clear cut Orbis beats down Durango. 14+4 CU's vs 12.

    From what we know right now anyway.
    There are lots of stalls, memory writes, reads etc etc to and from GDDR5.
    Microsoft's solution has always been the ability to read read read.
    Peak theoretical performance is once thing, eliminating bottle necks is another.

    Think of it this way,

    Ps4 might read data and compute it in 4ms then it has 1 ms of ras/cas delays then 2ms to write.

    Thats 4+1+2=7ms

    With this solution you have the potential of

    6ms compute +0ms write delay +2ms to write
    Thats 6+0+2=8ms.

    Wouldnt be a lot in it.

    Ever time you hit a texture fetch change for example, that's a stall.
    This is saying it will translate that, even copy to the esram, while you still computing you last GPU work. Its like a little helper.

    Still not happy about the thought of DDR3, but this would at least help.
    Last edited by mynd; 02-06-2013 at 23:35.

  20. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Why not?

    GPU wise it seems pretty clear cut Orbis beats down Durango. 14+4 CU's vs 12.

    From what we know right now anyway.
    I agree while i may not be tech savvy. Ive been around forums and seems like general consensus between tech savs are that PS4 hands down beats Nextbox if the speculations are true.


    I must agree with the sentiment in this thread that some members are purely favoring one side only.

  21. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    There are lots of stalls, memory writes, reads etc etc to and from GDDR5.
    Microsoft's solution has always been the ability to read read read.
    Peak theoretical performance is once thing, eliminating bottle necks is another.

    Think of it this way,

    Ps4 might read data and compute it in 4ms then it has 1 ms of ras/cas delays then 2ms to write.

    Thats 4+1+2=7ms

    With this solution you have the potential of

    6ms compute +0ms write delay +2ms to write
    Thats 6+0+2=8ms.

    Wouldnt be a lot in it.

    Ever time you hit a texture fetch change for example, that's a stall.
    This is saying it will translate that, even copy to the esram, while you still computing you last GPU work. Its like a little helper.

    Still not happy about the thought of DDR3, but this would at least help.
    Eh.

    I don't see any real scenario (with the specs we have) where Durango can outperform Orbis. It has a larger pool of slower memory and just 32MB of ESRAM to help compensate, and a considerably weaker GPU. It has the DME's to help ensure full utilization and load balancing.. But I still don't think that will cut it.

    It's a weaker system. MS designed it with a certain budget and they apparently wanted to really push Kinect and multimedia\social features in game. That is their driving reason, imo, behind picking a very large slow RAM pool and then handing near half of it to the OS.

    The Data Engines and ESRAM were cost effective methods to deal with the negative side effects of this choice. And apparently this all came out of the GPU budget because it is very much weaker than what Orbis has packing.

    MS is probably hedging their bets on the fact hat while there will be a noticeable performance gap to enthusiasts, average consumers will have a hard time telling. What people will notice, though, are the slew of awesome features Kinect 2.0 and the 720's OS allows them to do. Especially in-game.

    Not a bad plan. Unfortunately I cannot really appreciate that angle because, well, I'm an enthusiast.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 02-07-2013 at 03:22.


  22. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Eh. I don't see any real scenario (with the specs we have) where Durango can outperform Orbis. It has a larger pool of slower memory and just 32MB of ESRAM to help compensate, and a considerably weaker GPU. It has the DME's to help ensure full utilization and load balancing.. But I still don't think that will cut it. It's a weaker system. MS designed it with a certain budget and they apparently wanted to really push Kinect and multimedia\social features in game. That is their driving reason, imo, behind picking a very large slow RAM pool and then handing near half of it to the OS. The Data Engines and ESRAM were cost effective methods to deal with the negative side effects of this choice. And apparently this all came out of the GPU budget because it is very much weaker than what Orbis has packing. MS is probably hedging their bets on the fact hat while there will be a noticeable performance gap to enthusiasts, average consumers will have a hard time telling. What people will notice, though, are the slew of awesome features Kinect 2.0 and the 720's OS allows them to do. Especially in-game. Not a bad plan. Unfortunately I cannot really appreciate that angle because, well, I'm an enthusiast.
    I cannot appreciate that angle either for the same reason. Thats why it will be PS4 only for me next gen.

  23. #96
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    IMO i think both next gen consoles are going to be a huge let down there wont be much difference between current gen.
    Its mostly going to just be a lot fine details added to games, If its not 1080p, its not really something that you would notice unless your hobby is running around staring at walls and the ground. The pc may be the way to go.

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  24. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Eh.

    I don't see any real scenario (with the specs we have) where Durango can outperform Orbis. It has a larger pool of slower memory and just 32MB of ESRAM to help compensate, and a considerably weaker GPU. It has the DME's to help ensure full utilization and load balancing.. But I still don't think that will cut it.

    It's a weaker system. MS designed it with a certain budget and they apparently wanted to really push Kinect and multimedia\social features in game. That is their driving reason, imo, behind picking a very large slow RAM pool and then handing near half of it to the OS.

    The Data Engines and ESRAM were cost effective methods to deal with the negative side effects of this choice. And apparently this all came out of the GPU budget because it is very much weaker than what Orbis has packing.

    MS is probably hedging their bets on the fact hat while there will be a noticeable performance gap to enthusiasts, average consumers will have a hard time telling. What people will notice, though, are the slew of awesome features Kinect 2.0 and the 720's OS allows them to do. Especially in-game.

    Not a bad plan. Unfortunately I cannot really appreciate that angle because, well, I'm an enthusiast.
    PS4
    176gb/s /2 =88 gbs GPU performance? Well actually no, because it apparently shares this with the main cpu (but this is the same for the 720 so we can ignore it).

    So we 88gb/s throughput for memory for GPU ops.


    720
    =68 gb/s through to esram, +return via move blocks=25gbs

    That's a sum total of 25+68=93gb/s for ops.

    I don't think that memory bandwidth is going to be an issue. There is no doubt on the specs we have that the PS4 Gpu is stronger.

    What we are really looking at is those compute units.

    I got to stress, that only in some situations, its not always going to be hitting 93gb/s
    Last edited by mynd; 02-07-2013 at 06:18.

  25. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    PS4
    176gb/s /2 =88 gbs GPU performance? Well actually no, because it apparently shares this with the main cpu (but this is the same for the 720 so we can ignore it).

    So we 88gb/s throughput for memory for GPU ops.


    720
    =68 gb/s through to esram, +return via move blocks=25gbs

    That's a sum total of 25+68=93gb/s for ops.

    I don't think that memory bandwidth is going to be an issue. There is no doubt on the specs we have that the PS4 Gpu is stronger.

    What we are really looking at is those compute units.

    I got to stress, that only in some situations, its not always going to be hitting 93gb/s
    Good job in spinning it around.




  26. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by brebaz View Post
    Good job in spinning it around.
    If Technical talk goes over your head, thats your problem not mine.

    We all know why these move blocks are there, and they don't make up for a more powerful GPU so am unsure how its "spin"
    Last edited by mynd; 02-07-2013 at 11:03.

  27. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    If Technical talk goes over your head, thats your problem not mine.
    Oh, please, and by all means, proceed.




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