Carmack: Sony made wise engineering decisions for PS4

**Coconut_Crunch** · 02-22-2013

nooo, I doubt it. I don't think that is what is going to happen here. That seems HUGE if that's true.

**Shibby** · 02-22-2013

I don't see what else it could mean. You're trying to say that the on-board GPU will have its own RAM right, and that the 8gb is separare from that? Well, then the "shared" and "unified" wouldn't really mean anything.

**Coconut_Crunch** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Shibby

I don't see what else it could mean. You're trying to say that the on-board GPU will have its own RAM right, and that the 8gb is separare from that? Well, then the "shared" and "unified" wouldn't really mean anything.

yea but that would mean that they could have a 4GB GPU and use 3GB of GDDR5 for RAM. Do you know how much a 4GB GPU costs? This would mean that AMD have just spanked not only their own GPU line with this APU but also Nvidias GPU line as well in one giant swoop. There is something definitely missing here.

**baho** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Bligmerk

He is probably referring to the 8GB of unified GDDR5 RAM. This is a big question here. Nvidia just released the GTX Titan video card and it has 6GB GDDR5. The GTX Titan retail price is $999, and that is just for a video card. The GPU is probably about $500 of that price. So, how is Sony going to get GDDR5 in volume at a half or one-third the price it is now? They don't make RAM, so who is the supplier? This was the major surprise announcement and it may have been very recent. Who have they found that will be able to provide this volume in memory chips at such a reduced price, Samsung?

8gb of DDR3 ram is about 35-40$ while 8gb of gddr5 ram is about 150$. Yeah, it is much, but certainly not 400-500$ like some of you think

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

yea but that would mean that they could have a 4GB GPU and use 3GB of GDDR5 for RAM. Do you know how much a 4GB GPU costs? This would mean that AMD have just spanked not only their own GPU line with this APU but also Nvidias GPU line as well in one giant swoop. There is something definitely missing here.

You don't really understand how GPU's work (the amount of RAM a GPU has is far from indicative of it's performance). The way the RAM is shared in the PS4 is completely up to every developer. Except for the reserved RAM for the OS (which will probably be about 512MB) the rest will be free for the devs to use as they please. It's called "unified" for a reason.

**Coconut_Crunch** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by baho

8gb of DDR3 ram is about 35-40$ while 8gb of gddr5 ram is about 150$. Yeah, it is much, but certainly not 400-500$ like some of you think

You don't really understand how GPU's work (the amount of RAM a GPU has is far from indicative of it's performance). The way the RAM is shared in the PS4 is completely up to every developer. Except the reserved RAM for the OS (which will probably be about 512MB) the rest will be free for the devs to use as they please. It's called "unified" for a reason.

well, from my comment it's pretty clear that I do understand GPU's. What doesn't make sense is again and I will explain this one more time. You are saying that Sony has basically made with AMD an APU that is capable of costing way less and yet if a dev wants to he can use 4GB of GDDR5 for the GPU. This is what you are stating. He could also use 5GB of GDDR5. Cross this with my previous point this system should be costing well over $1500.

Again, something doesn't make any sense and it sure isn't on my end.

Okay, now not only this but now AMD and Sony have reinvented how PC gaming fuctions as well. So yea, something isn't right and it's not my fault

**John25** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by baho

8gb of DDR3 ram is about 35-40$ while 8gb of gddr5 ram is about 150$. Yeah, it is much, but certainly not 400-500$ like some of you think

You don't really understand how GPU's work (the amount of RAM a GPU has is far from indicative of it's performance). The way the RAM is shared in the PS4 is completely up to every developer. Except for the reserved RAM for the OS (which will probably be about 512MB) the rest will be free for the devs to use as they please. It's called "unified" for a reason.

it will be a lot cheaper too due to Bulk buying and being directly soldered to the Mobo.

**PottSie2** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

well, from my comment it's pretty clear that I do understand GPU's. What doesn't make sense is again and I will explain this one more time. You are saying that Sony has basically made with AMD an APU that is capable of costing way less and yet if a dev wants to he can use 4GB of GDDR5 for the GPU. This is what you are stating. He could also use 5GB of GDDR5. Cross this with my previous point this system should be costing well over $1500.

Again, something doesn't make any sense and it sure isn't on my end.

Okay, now not only this but now AMD and Sony have reinvented how PC gaming fuctions as well. So yea, something isn't right and it's not my fault

Your knowledge may not be as in depth as you believe then.

It's 8GB of unified GDDR5. Shared between the CPU and GPU.

**Shibby** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

well, from my comment it's pretty clear that I do understand GPU's. What doesn't make sense is again and I will explain this one more time. You are saying that Sony has basically made with AMD an APU that is capable of costing way less and yet if a dev wants to he can use 4GB of GDDR5 for the GPU. This is what you are stating. He could also use 5GB of GDDR5. Cross this with my previous point this system should be costing well over $1500.

Again, something doesn't make any sense and it sure isn't on my end.

Okay, now not only this but now AMD and Sony have reinvented how PC gaming fuctions as well. So yea, something isn't right and it's not my fault

You're assuming that a developer using X GBs of the RAM for the GPU means the price will include the price of an X GB GPU (which, as has already been said, RAM is only a part of the GPU and not wholly indicative of price). But that is inherently flawed logic, since a developer can use anything he wants.

You're also assuming that it will actually make sense for them to use that much RAM for the GPU. Your typical near-top-of-the-line graphics card has about 2-3 GB of GDDR5 on it.

The performance and quality of a GPU is in the logic of the chip, not in the size of its RAM. The RAM is only there as assistance, to cache, not to be the workhorse. Technically you could throw a shitload of RAM onto a shitty chip, but that doesn't make it a good chip.

I think it is most definitely on your end where it is not making sense.

**Coconut_Crunch** · 02-22-2013

I don't care what you guys say, something is not right.

Considering AGAIN that a 4GB GPU can cost anywhere from $400 to even $700, what you guys are saying makes no fucking sense.. Even a 3GB GPU from Radeon costs $300+.

I'm not assuming anything, I am using actual facts from a PC point of view here and what you guys are saying is this current console is a ultra high-end PC basically.

This is a 3GB radeon GPU...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131478

This is a 6GB Radeon GPU...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131483

The prices and now an APU is capable of pumping a GPU with 3 to 4GB of GDDR5. come on guys, wtf.

**Shibby** · 02-22-2013

Those GPUs are expensive because of the quality of the chip, not the amount of RAM. That RAM is just an optimization of what they need to run efficiently.

If you want to look at RAM to see the quality of the chip, then look in the 1-2 GB range, because if you compare the PS4 GPU's quality with that of a standard PC GPU, the comprable one is typically paired with 1GB or 2GB.

The PS4 chip is supposed to be comprable to a Radeon 7850. A 7850 costs $150-200 now and comes with either 1 or 2 gb. But that doesn't mean that a 7850 cannot be paired with more than that much RAM, it's just that it's not cost effective enough to give it more with diminishing returns in performance for a standalone chip. In the PS4, where the developer can control it, they could use more than that if they have special needs to do so.

**Coconut_Crunch** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Shibby

Those GPUs are expensive because of the quality of the chip, not the amount of RAM. That RAM is just an optimization of what they need to run efficiently.

If you want to look at RAM to see the quality of the chip, then look in the 1-2 GB range, because if you compare the PS4 GPU's quality with that of a standard PC GPU, the comprable one is typically paired with 1GB or 2GB.

The PS4 chip is supposed to be comprable to a Radeon 7850. A 7850 costs $150-200 now and comes with either 1 or 2 gb. But that doesn't mean that a 7850 cannot be paired with more than that much RAM, it's just that it's not cost effective enough to give it more with diminishing returns in performance for a standalone chip. In the PS4, where the developer can control it, they could use more than that if they have special needs to do so.

This is an APU. in an APU the graphics are integrated into the cpu, it's all in one. So now basically you have said that AMD has revolutionized CPU right now, which like I said before spanks all over Nvidia. Sorry but no.

PS. whatever RAM is used in that GPU is going to stay in that GPU. The GPU isn't going to fluctuate between 2GB GDDR5 to 3GB of GDDR5. The GDDR RAM in the PS4 can be split any way between other things, games, cpu end, but not the GPU like you were stating. The GPU I believe has it's own thing even though it's an APU. Otherwise, like I said this will revolutionize PC gaming as a whole and there is really no point in buying a separate GPU, you might as well just buy APU's.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113280

**Lefein** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

I don't care what you guys say, something is not right.

Considering AGAIN that a 4GB GPU can cost anywhere from $400 to even $700, what you guys are saying makes no fucking sense.. Even a 3GB GPU from Radeon costs $300+.

I'm not assuming anything, I am using actual facts from a PC point of view here and what you guys are saying is this current console is a ultra high-end PC basically.

This is a 3GB radeon GPU...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131478

This is a 6GB Radeon GPU...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131483

The prices and now an APU is capable of pumping a GPU with 3 to 4GB of GDDR5. come on guys, wtf.

The amount of compute units, clock frequencies and what it take sto manufacture components to run in tolerance to a high performance GPU is why those cards are so expensive. The PS4 is not pushing the envelope in those areas because it would be impractical for a home console to do so.

**MonkeyClaw** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

I don't care what you guys say, something is not right.

Considering AGAIN that a 4GB GPU can cost anywhere from $400 to even $700, what you guys are saying makes no fucking sense.. Even a 3GB GPU from Radeon costs $300+.

I'm not assuming anything, I am using actual facts from a PC point of view here and what you guys are saying is this current console is a ultra high-end PC basically.

This is a 3GB radeon GPU...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131478

This is a 6GB Radeon GPU...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131483

The prices and now an APU is capable of pumping a GPU with 3 to 4GB of GDDR5. come on guys, wtf.

You also have to remember the consumer prices for these cards probably have a ton of margin built into them, even though that first card is $299 and the second one is $899, both are probably pretty close cost-wise to manufacture, but they jack up the price because they can. I have no clue what the true cost it is to make those two cards, but I guarantee that $900 doesn't cost anywhere near that to make!

**baho** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

I don't care what you guys say, something is not right.

Considering AGAIN that a 4GB GPU can cost anywhere from $400 to even $700, what you guys are saying makes no fucking sense.. Even a 3GB GPU from Radeon costs $300+.

And this is where your logic is flawed. For example this card http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102950 "SAPPHIRE Ultimate Radeon HD 6670 1GB 128-bit GDDR5" costs 85$, yeah? Let's say, just for the sake of this example, that Sapphire decides to add 6GB of gddr5 ram onto it. Doing so would not raise it's performance to that of a ~900$ top of the line dual GPU. It would be exactly the same card performance wise just that it would have more ram onto it, raising it's price with about 130$ (the price of the added gddr5 ram). Why doesn't Sapphire do this? Simple, the card just doesn't has nowhere the performance required for such amount of ram.

**Shibby** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

This is an APU. in an APU the graphics are integrated into the cpu, it's all in one. So now basically you have said that AMD has revolutionized CPU right now, which like I said before spanks all over Nvidia. Sorry but no.

PS. whatever RAM is used in that GPU is going to stay in that GPU. The GPU isn't going to fluctuate between 2GB GDDR5 to 3GB of GDDR5. The GDDR RAM in the PS4 can be split any way between other things, games, cpu end, but not the GPU like you were stating. The GPU I believe has it's own thing even though it's an APU. Otherwise, like I said this will revolutionize PC gaming as a whole and there is really no point in buying a separate GPU, you might as well just buy APU's.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113280

How exactly would it be revolutionized? I don't get what point you're trying to make here. What I said was some pretty basic stuff.

That's the thing about console architecture. It's closed, it's controlled, it's not user-customizable. It's not done exactly the same way as it would be done in a PC. In that regard it may not make sense to be used in that particular way in a regular PC build.

Just because they CAN use 6-7 GB to work with the GPU, doesn't mean that they WILL, doesn't mean that it will make sense to do so.

**Sufi** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

I don't care what you guys say, something is not right.

Considering AGAIN that a 4GB GPU can cost anywhere from $400 to even $700, what you guys are saying makes no fucking sense.. Even a 3GB GPU from Radeon costs $300+.

I'm not assuming anything, I am using actual facts from a PC point of view here and what you guys are saying is this current console is a ultra high-end PC basically.

This is a 3GB radeon GPU...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131478

This is a 6GB Radeon GPU...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131483

The prices and now an APU is capable of pumping a GPU with 3 to 4GB of GDDR5. come on guys, wtf.

Dude lol. You can get two GPUs and both might have 1GB of RAM and one could barely output graphics, the other one could run the best games available today.

RAM is only worthwhile and expensive when the power of GPU is...that's why usually you'll see a correlation of the size of RAM and the price.

But they're not directly correlated. I'm sure this probably confused you more though lol.

**Coconut_Crunch** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Shibby

How exactly would it be revolutionized? I don't get what point you're trying to make here. What I said was some pretty basic stuff.

That's the thing about console architecture. It's closed, it's controlled, it's not user-customizable. It's not done exactly the same way as it would be done in a PC. In that regard it may not make sense to be used in that particular way in a regular PC build.

Just because they CAN use 6-7 GB to work with the GPU, doesn't mean that they WILL, doesn't mean that it will make sense to do so.

you are saying that the APU can swap to whatever it wants with GDDR5. So if a developer is developing a game they can use 3GB of GDDR5 for the GPU if they want to, while another developer can use 2GB or just 1GB of GDDR5, while this next developer could use 5GB of GDDR5. That is what I was reading on your comment. Infact that is what you are saying and I don't believe it.

The reason it would revolution PC desktop is know one as of right now needs to buy an intel or a Nvidia. AMD right now has all the answers for a PC build. So I might as well buy an APU and try to find a motherboard that supports GDDR5 and that way the APU's GPU can use whatever it wants. So I could stick 16GB of GDDR5 in my computer while an APU can take 8GB of GDDR5 for it's GPU. That is exaclty what I'm reading and yes that would revolutionize how PC's are being built.

**baho** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

The reason it would revolution PC desktop is know one as of right now needs to buy an intel or a Nvidia. AMD right now has all the answers for a PC build. So I might as well buy an APU and try to find a motherboard that supports GDDR5 and that way the APU's GPU can use whatever it wants. So I could stick 16GB of GDDR5 in my computer while an APU can take 8GB of GDDR5 for it's GPU. That is exaclty what I'm reading and yes that would revolutionize how PC's are being built.

You are funny

Previous responses have everything needed for you to understand the basic concept. Read them carefully and you will understand. I give up, other members are welcomed to try and educate you further.

Oh, one last thing: a PC is a PC and a console is, well, a console! PS4 might have a very similar architecture to a PC but there are some key differences in the way they work. The way PS4 uses the ram is one of them. (although there are motherboards for pc's with integrated gpu's that use up system ram because they do no have dedicated ram, but their performances are low to very low end)

**Coconut_Crunch** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by baho

You are funny

Previous responses have everything needed for you to understand the basic concept. Read them carefully and you will understand. I give up, other members are welcomed to try and educate you further.

Oh, one last thing: a PC is a PC and a console is, well, a console! PS4 might have a very similar architecture to a PC but there are some key differences in the way they work. The way PS4 uses the ram is one of them. (although there are motherboards for pc's with integrated gpu's that use up system ram because they do no have dedicated ram)

gee, thanks for pointing out the difference between console and PC. Just because it's a console doesn't mean the tech magically becomes cheap. Anyway fuck it.

**baho** · 02-22-2013

What "tech"?! lol it's just more freaking ram, there is no "secret sauce" like durango will have

**PeanutButterMunky** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by baho

What "tech"?! lol it's just more freaking ram, there is no "secret sauce" like durango will have

Right...

**Coconut_Crunch** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by baho

What "tech"?! lol it's just more freaking ram, there is no "secret sauce" like durango will have

ahh, I see so now you think I'm an xbox fanboy. Sorry but I'm not, I don't own an Xbox and infact I am excited about the PS4. I just don't understand how you guys are saying an APU can borrow as much GDDR5 as it wants considering PC APU's should be the same way. So basically Console APU's are 10x better than PC APU's.

Also, it's clear that APU's have the GPU already intagrated into it. I wont believe it unless I hear it from the horses mouth and while Sony did say it was unified that doesn't mean it's unified for the GPU.

Anyway, if you are going to do that "reading between the lines" when you are really calling me a fanboy that's fine but get your facts straight before insulting people. haha

**baho** · 02-22-2013

lol not at all, that was actually sarcasm about the next xbox "secret sauce", you are the one reading between the lines.

Look, i'll try to explain it as simple as i can.
Having a unified memory pool on consoles is acceptable and possible because the CPU and GPU are on the same die. On PC's components come separately, nobody would buy a system like a console because they like to upgrade different components separately. They wouldn't like the idea of having to buy a whole new pc just to get a more powerful graphics card (it's actually unacceptable). For more info google for the Intel news about CPU+mobo combo (cpu soldered on the mobo, no way of upgrading without changing mobo as well; ppl were outraged and Intel had to back up on this plan). Understand now?

**MonkeyClaw** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch

gee, thanks for pointing out the difference between console and PC. Just because it's a console doesn't mean the tech magically becomes cheap. Anyway fuck it.

LOL! Doesn't technical stuff drive you up the walls! Stuff is cheaper for Sony because they get parts at a much lower price than if you bought stuff at Newegg, etc. and when stuff it directly soldered onto the motherboard it makes it even more cheaper. The whole point of unified memory is so that you have flexibility, the APU is just a CPU+GPU built into one chip, both the CPU and GPU shared that 8GB of memory, and it is adjusted by the programmers on how much each processor gets, so yes, they can give the CPU 1GB and the GPU 7GB, or they could split it evenly between the two, etc. The best way to explain it in the PC world is to look at a laptop that has UMA for the video card, my Netbook has a HD 4225 which it has no video RAM built into it, instead it uses the DDR3 system RAM for video memory.

**Coconut_Crunch** · 02-22-2013

Originally Posted by baho

lol not at all, that was actually sarcasm about the next xbox "secret sauce", you are the one reading between the lines.

Look, i'll try to explain it as simple as i can.
Having a unified memory pool on consoles is acceptable and possible because the CPU and GPU are on the same die. On PC's components come separately, nobody would buy a system like a console because they like to upgrade different components separately. They wouldn't like the idea of having to buy a whole new pc just to get a more powerful graphics card. Understand now?

I've been understanding what you are saying but the reasoning you just gave is just silly. So, people wouldn't want a more capable CPU+GPU which would be much much cheaper but more powerful because they like to upgrade.

If it was on the PC all you would need is a new APU anyway. Sorry but your reasoning is rather silly. I know many PC gamers that would be happy for an APU with a motherboard supporting GDDR5 ram in it and having the APU take whatever it needs to run that game graphically as well as maxed out. come on dude.

All they have announced for the APU was the CPU, they didn't even announce the GPU yet. infact I can't find the GPU at all even on the PS4 website

what I mean is they haven't announced what kind of GPU just that it's a AMD next generation radeon capable of 1.84TFLOPS. I'll read more up on this but I just don't by the reasoning at all.

Originally Posted by MonkeyClaw

LOL! Doesn't technical stuff drive you up the walls! Stuff is cheaper for Sony because they get parts at a much lower price than if you bought stuff at Newegg, etc. and when stuff it directly soldered onto the motherboard it makes it even more cheaper. The whole point of unified memory is so that you have flexibility, the APU is just a CPU+GPU built into one chip, both the CPU and GPU shared that 8GB of memory, and it is adjusted by the programmers on how much each processor gets, so yes, they can give the CPU 1GB and the GPU 7GB, or they could split it evenly between the two, etc. The best way to explain it in the PC world is to look at a laptop that has UMA for the video card, my Netbook has a HD 4225 which it has no video RAM built into it, instead it uses the DDR3 system RAM for video memory.

and that's what I don't understand, how is that freakin possible.